Hi,

I've just bought my Dad a motion/nighttime sensing outside coach lamp from
B&Q. The problem is, he now tells me that the power supply to the location
where it will be fitted doesn't have an earth connection - just live and
neutral.

He already has a simple on/off light in place and he seems to remember that
he simply stuffed the earth wire into the brick wall!!! Is this safe? Is
this legal???

Anyway, any ideas on what to do if there really IS no earth connection from
the house? Should I try the 'stuffing the earth wire into the wall' trick?!

Thanks in advance,

Daz

"Kroma" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I've just bought my Dad a motion/nighttime sensing outside coach lamp from
B&Q. The problem is, he now tells me that the power supply to the
location where it will be fitted doesn't have an earth connection - just
live and neutral.

Does the new light need an earth? (as in, does it have an earth terminal)

He already has a simple on/off light in place and he seems to remember
that he simply stuffed the earth wire into the brick wall!!! Is this
safe? Is this legal???

If the existing fitting needs an earth (Generally if the fitting is metal)
then no, this is not safe nor complant with the regs.

Anyway, any ideas on what to do if there really IS no earth connection
from the house? Should I try the 'stuffing the earth wire into the wall'
trick?!

If there isn't an earth, you need to do one of two things...

1 - Install an earth wire
2 - Get a fitting that does not requre an earth, generaly a plastic one.

Sparks...
(Not an electrician)

"Sparks" wrote in message
...

Does the new light need an earth? (as in, does it have an earth terminal)

Yes, the new fitting has an earth terminal.

If the existing fitting needs an earth (Generally if the fitting is metal)
then no, this is not safe nor complant with the regs.

Oh dear.

If there isn't an earth, you need to do one of two things...

1 - Install an earth wire
2 - Get a fitting that does not requre an earth, generally a plastic one.

What's the easiest way to fit an earth wire?

Daz

Kroma wrote:
"Sparks" wrote in message
...

Does the new light need an earth? (as in, does it have an earth terminal)

Yes, the new fitting has an earth terminal.

Metal fittings outdoors must always be earthed. Indoors it just
protects against insulation failures, but outdoors youve got
condensation, running water, spiders, insects and dirt that generally
get onto the electrics, so earthling is particularly important outside.

What's the easiest way to fit an earth wire?

I thought you already had one. The easiest way is to run a wire to the
nearest light or socket and connect to the earth there, but this isnt
compliant, as removing one circuit could leave your light unearthed.
The proper way is fish that earth wire back out.


NT

wrote in message
oups.com...

What's the easiest way to fit an earth wire?

I thought you already had one. The easiest way is to run a wire to the
nearest light or socket and connect to the earth there, but this isnt
compliant, as removing one circuit could leave your light unearthed.
The proper way is fish that earth wire back out.

Ah - I think I was a bit vague with this bit.

His *current* light has an earth wire which he has poked into the brick wall
as there is no earth wire coming from within the house (he was told - in the
1960s - that this would be an adequate earth)!

Fitting an earth wire will be very tricky from the location of the lamp (*):

----------------------------
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| -------|
| | |
| | *|
--------------------- |

Daz

In article ,
"Kroma" writes:
Hi,

I've just bought my Dad a motion/nighttime sensing outside coach lamp from
B&Q. The problem is, he now tells me that the power supply to the location
where it will be fitted doesn't have an earth connection - just live and
neutral.

He already has a simple on/off light in place and he seems to remember that
he simply stuffed the earth wire into the brick wall!!! Is this safe? Is
this legal???

Anyway, any ideas on what to do if there really IS no earth connection from
the house? Should I try the 'stuffing the earth wire into the wall' trick?!

If there's really no earth available, you are restricted
to using a double insulated luminare (which are usually
plastic).

--
Andrew Gabriel

Kroma wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

What's the easiest way to fit an earth wire?

I thought you already had one. The easiest way is to run a wire to the
nearest light or socket and connect to the earth there, but this isnt
compliant, as removing one circuit could leave your light unearthed.
The proper way is fish that earth wire back out.

Ah - I think I was a bit vague with this bit.

His *current* light has an earth wire which he has poked into the brick wall
as there is no earth wire coming from within the house (he was told - in the
1960s - that this would be an adequate earth)!

I'm not entirely sure if that makes sense. Also I would not consider
relying on second hand comments from 40 years ago. You need to find out
whether that earth works or not.

It would have been far easier to fit a separate (plastic) motion
detector and either keep the existing light or fit a plastic one. In
fact that may still be your easiest option. You can reasonably expect a
refund since the metal fitting is not suitable for the purpose for
which you bought it.


Fitting an earth wire will be very tricky from the location of the lamp (*):

----------------------------
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| -------|
| | |
| | *|
--------------------- |

Daz

why?


NT

In article ,
Kroma wrote:
I've just bought my Dad a motion/nighttime sensing outside coach lamp
from B&Q. The problem is, he now tells me that the power supply to the
location where it will be fitted doesn't have an earth connection -
just live and neutral.

He already has a simple on/off light in place and he seems to remember
that he simply stuffed the earth wire into the brick wall!!! Is this
safe? Is this legal???

Anyway, any ideas on what to do if there really IS no earth connection
from the house? Should I try the 'stuffing the earth wire into the
wall' trick?!

Simplest way would be to change it for one which doesn't require an earth.

Something like these:-
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...rns/index.html

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
oups.com...


I'm not entirely sure if that makes sense. Also I would not consider
relying on second hand comments from 40 years ago. You need to find out
whether that earth works or not.

OK, I know I need to take off the old lantern but from what my Dad has said
is that he attached the current lantern's earth wire to a screw which is
screwed into the brick wall. However, we may find that there is an earth
wire after all as memories can be funny things!

Whatever I find... how can I check to see that any available earth works
adequately?

Thanks,

Daz

In article ,
Kroma wrote:
OK, I know I need to take off the old lantern but from what my Dad has
said is that he attached the current lantern's earth wire to a screw
which is screwed into the brick wall. However, we may find that there
is an earth wire after all as memories can be funny things!

It could be there is an earth wire in the feed cable (TW&E) which is 'made
off' under one of the lamp to wall fixing screws - I've seen this before.

Whatever I find... how can I check to see that any available earth works
adequately?

If you can be sure no one else is in the house, wire a light between live
and that earth. If it lights normally, the earth is at least connected.

(The reason to make sure no one else is around is that if the earth wire
is connected to something which isn't correctly earthed doing this trick
will make it live.)

--
*How can I miss you if you won't go away?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 2 Aug 2006 21:58:31 +0100, "Kroma"
wrote:

wrote in message
roups.com...


I'm not entirely sure if that makes sense. Also I would not consider
relying on second hand comments from 40 years ago. You need to find out
whether that earth works or not.

OK, I know I need to take off the old lantern but from what my Dad has said
is that he attached the current lantern's earth wire to a screw which is
screwed into the brick wall. However, we may find that there is an earth
wire after all as memories can be funny things!

Whatever I find... how can I check to see that any available earth works
adequately?

Realistically, if the "lantern" goes faulty and a "live" connection
touches the casing, you need to ensure that if you are in contact with
the lantern, sufficient current flows through the "earth" wire to
prevent you from being killed. Current will divide proportionately
depending on the conductance of the path - either through the
perhaps-damp bricks or through you!
As others have said, if you can't get a "pucka" earth connection to
the lantern, you really should be looking at an all-insulated (plastic
cased) or double-insulated fitting.
In theory you could provide an earth rod near the fitting, but the
bother of ensuring that you have an adequate and permanent good earth
would be outweighed by replacing the supply cable by a proper T+E
supply.
If the rest of the house's wiring doesn't support an earthed supply
throughout the system, you _really_ should be looking at a rewire -
seriously!

--
Frank Erskine

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Kroma wrote:
OK, I know I need to take off the old lantern but from what my Dad has
said is that he attached the current lantern's earth wire to a screw
which is screwed into the brick wall. However, we may find that there
is an earth wire after all as memories can be funny things!

It could be there is an earth wire in the feed cable (TW&E) which is 'made
off' under one of the lamp to wall fixing screws - I've seen this before.

Whatever I find... how can I check to see that any available earth works
adequately?

If you can be sure no one else is in the house, wire a light between live
and that earth. If it lights normally, the earth is at least connected.

(The reason to make sure no one else is around is that if the earth wire
is connected to something which isn't correctly earthed doing this trick
will make it live.)

But if you have an RCD in your consumer unit, this will (should!) trip.
An RCD will have 30mA or 100mA written on it somewhere - But if it hasn't
been touched since the 60's then you won't have an RCD!


Sparks...
(Not an electrician)

In article ,
Sparks wrote:
If you can be sure no one else is in the house, wire a light between
live and that earth. If it lights normally, the earth is at least
connected.

(The reason to make sure no one else is around is that if the earth
wire is connected to something which isn't correctly earthed doing
this trick will make it live.)

But if you have an RCD in your consumer unit, this will (should!) trip.
An RCD will have 30mA or 100mA written on it somewhere - But if it
hasn't been touched since the 60's then you won't have an RCD!

I sort of assumed somewhere where they're not sure about earthing isn't
likely to have an RCD fitted. Unless a 'board' one due to overhead supply.

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote:
It would have been far easier to fit a separate (plastic) motion
detector and either keep the existing light or fit a plastic one. In
fact that may still be your easiest option. You can reasonably expect a
refund since the metal fitting is not suitable for the purpose for
which you bought it.

Please explain. The fitting is perfectly suitable for the purpose for
which it was sold (an exterior light). If the purchaser bought
something that isn't suitable for their particular situation then it's
their mistake and there is no legal right to a refund. Under the sale
of goods act "fit for purpose" means capable of doing what it's meant
to do, not neccessarily what the purchaser wants it to do.

If it was described and sold as being suitable for installation where
there is no earth available (there's no evidence of this in the OP)
then obviously that's a different matter and it isn't fit for purpose.

MBQ

wrote:
wrote:

It would have been far easier to fit a separate (plastic) motion
detector and either keep the existing light or fit a plastic one. In
fact that may still be your easiest option. You can reasonably expect a
refund since the metal fitting is not suitable for the purpose for
which you bought it.

Please explain. The fitting is perfectly suitable for the purpose for
which it was sold (an exterior light). If the purchaser bought
something that isn't suitable for their particular situation then it's
their mistake and there is no legal right to a refund. Under the sale
of goods act "fit for purpose" means capable of doing what it's meant
to do, not neccessarily what the purchaser wants it to do.

If it was described and sold as being suitable for installation where
there is no earth available (there's no evidence of this in the OP)
then obviously that's a different matter and it isn't fit for purpose.

MBQ

AIUI if sales staff say its fit for your specific purpose then you can
demand a refund if it isnt. Whether that will run in practice is
another question, but it often does.


NT

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Kroma wrote:
OK, I know I need to take off the old lantern but from what my Dad has
said is that he attached the current lantern's earth wire to a screw
which is screwed into the brick wall. However, we may find that there
is an earth wire after all as memories can be funny things!

It could be there is an earth wire in the feed cable (TW&E) which is 'made
off' under one of the lamp to wall fixing screws - I've seen this before.

Whatever I find... how can I check to see that any available earth works
adequately?

If you can be sure no one else is in the house, wire a light between live
and that earth. If it lights normally, the earth is at least connected.

(The reason to make sure no one else is around is that if the earth wire
is connected to something which isn't correctly earthed doing this trick
will make it live.)


I wouldnt recommend this to someone with little electrical knowledge as
the gotchas are so easy to miss. Also it only partially addresses the
problem.

If theres an RCD, the supply will trip if 30mA flows, and the wire
could be connected to a rained on wall etc to get 30mA.

With no RCD, if the lamp lights we know the wire can sink 1/4A, but
again that doesnt imply it will sink a few times the fuse rating, ie
well over 10A, which is necessary to break the supply in a fault with
an older installation, or a newer split CU with no RCD on lights.

Finally it can make all sorts of unexpected objects live, thus
represents a danger to the novice. This is why I just didnt answer. The
best solution is a plastic fitting imho. Not an unearthed metal double
insulted one, which wont really be safe in outdoor conditions.


NT

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

It would have been far easier to fit a separate (plastic) motion
detector and either keep the existing light or fit a plastic one. In
fact that may still be your easiest option. You can reasonably expect a
refund since the metal fitting is not suitable for the purpose for
which you bought it.

Please explain. The fitting is perfectly suitable for the purpose for
which it was sold (an exterior light). If the purchaser bought
something that isn't suitable for their particular situation then it's
their mistake and there is no legal right to a refund. Under the sale
of goods act "fit for purpose" means capable of doing what it's meant
to do, not neccessarily what the purchaser wants it to do.

If it was described and sold as being suitable for installation where
there is no earth available (there's no evidence of this in the OP)
then obviously that's a different matter and it isn't fit for purpose.

MBQ

AIUI if sales staff say its fit for your specific purpose then you can
demand a refund if it isnt. Whether that will run in practice is
another question, but it often does.

There's no evidence the OP explained that his specific purpose was to
use a light requiring an earth in a location where there is no earth
available. In the absence of such, the light must be deemed to be fit
for it's intended purpose.

If I choose a light fitting and pay for it with no other interaction
with the store staff, can I demand a refund if I later realise it's not
suitable for use in Zone 1 in a bathroom? No, because the fitting is
obviously suitable for it's purpose (ie it's designed and sold for use
in other zones) but there is a mismatch between that and my desired
purpose.

Obviously, many shops _will_ give a refund and we should praise them
for that but I do not think there is any legal right in this case.

MBQ

In article .com,
wrote:
If you can be sure no one else is in the house, wire a light between
live and that earth. If it lights normally, the earth is at least
connected.

(The reason to make sure no one else is around is that if the earth
wire is connected to something which isn't correctly earthed doing
this trick will make it live.)


I wouldnt recommend this to someone with little electrical knowledge as
the gotchas are so easy to miss. Also it only partially addresses the
problem.

If theres an RCD, the supply will trip if 30mA flows, and the wire
could be connected to a rained on wall etc to get 30mA.

I sort of assumed no RCD reading between the lines.

With no RCD, if the lamp lights we know the wire can sink 1/4A, but
again that doesnt imply it will sink a few times the fuse rating, ie
well over 10A, which is necessary to break the supply in a fault with
an older installation, or a newer split CU with no RCD on lights.

It's a pretty unlikely scenario - an earth that will light a bulb but not
be correct elsewhere, although I grant it's just possible.

Finally it can make all sorts of unexpected objects live, thus
represents a danger to the novice. This is why I just didnt answer.

That's why I added the note in brackets.

The best solution is a plastic fitting imho. Not an unearthed metal
double insulted one, which wont really be safe in outdoor conditions.

The best solution would be to have the earth tested properly. If it's
faulty others in the house may be too. But a plastic fitting addresses the
immediate problem. That's why I supplied a URL for a supplier.

--
*Always borrow money from pessimists - they don't expect it back *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

If theres an RCD, the supply will trip if 30mA flows, and the wire
could be connected to a rained on wall etc to get 30mA.

I sort of assumed no RCD reading between the lines.

An update:

I still haven't been able to get to my Dad's to take the current light off
the wall but he has just told me that he is *certain* that there is no
proper earth wire leading to the current light and that the earth lead
*from* the light is attached to a screw in the wall.

The current light is also metal!!! Eek!

However, he has also told me that there is an RCD fitted to the house's
electricity supply. He believes that this was fitted when an electric
shower was installed.

Does this make any difference?

Daz

PS If all is no good, the back of the receipt (B&Q) states that there is a
28-day money back guarantee if unused.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article .com,
wrote:

If you can be sure no one else is in the house, wire a light between
live and that earth. If it lights normally, the earth is at least
connected.

(The reason to make sure no one else is around is that if the earth
wire is connected to something which isn't correctly earthed doing
this trick will make it live.)

I wouldnt recommend this to someone with little electrical knowledge as
the gotchas are so easy to miss. Also it only partially addresses the
problem.


With no RCD, if the lamp lights we know the wire can sink 1/4A, but
again that doesnt imply it will sink a few times the fuse rating, ie
well over 10A, which is necessary to break the supply in a fault with
an older installation, or a newer split CU with no RCD on lights.

It's a pretty unlikely scenario - an earth that will light a bulb but not
be correct elsewhere, although I grant it's just possible.

I'm not so sure. If this was wired 40 years ago, connecting it to any
nearby earthy object would in many cases have been considered ok. And
any nearby earthy object is effectively a relatively high impedance
earth, one that we cant assume will blow the fuse quickly, if at all.
40 years is a lot of time for bodgers to do their work.


Finally it can make all sorts of unexpected objects live, thus
represents a danger to the novice. This is why I just didnt answer.

That's why I added the note in brackets.

Even when told, novices generally still dont appreciate the problem
enough to make them safe imho.


NT

wrote:
wrote:
wrote:
wrote:

It would have been far easier to fit a separate (plastic) motion
detector and either keep the existing light or fit a plastic one. In
fact that may still be your easiest option. You can reasonably expect a
refund since the metal fitting is not suitable for the purpose for
which you bought it.

Please explain. The fitting is perfectly suitable for the purpose for
which it was sold (an exterior light). If the purchaser bought
something that isn't suitable for their particular situation then it's
their mistake and there is no legal right to a refund. Under the sale
of goods act "fit for purpose" means capable of doing what it's meant
to do, not neccessarily what the purchaser wants it to do.

If it was described and sold as being suitable for installation where
there is no earth available (there's no evidence of this in the OP)
then obviously that's a different matter and it isn't fit for purpose.

MBQ

AIUI if sales staff say its fit for your specific purpose then you can
demand a refund if it isnt. Whether that will run in practice is
another question, but it often does.

There's no evidence the OP explained that his specific purpose was to
use a light requiring an earth in a location where there is no earth
available. In the absence of such, the light must be deemed to be fit
for it's intended purpose.

If I choose a light fitting and pay for it with no other interaction
with the store staff, can I demand a refund if I later realise it's not
suitable for use in Zone 1 in a bathroom? No, because the fitting is
obviously suitable for it's purpose (ie it's designed and sold for use
in other zones) but there is a mismatch between that and my desired
purpose.

Obviously, many shops _will_ give a refund and we should praise them
for that but I do not think there is any legal right in this case.

MBQ

AIUI if he had said 'is this suitable for my house' he would be due a
refund, as it isnt suitable. In practice its unlikely that the staff
member will know what was or wasnt said, so such refunds are often
given, and thats the primary point.


NT

wrote in message
oups.com...
AIUI if he had said 'is this suitable for my house' he would be due a
refund, as it isnt suitable. In practice its unlikely that the staff
member will know what was or wasnt said, so such refunds are often
given, and thats the primary point.

The lamp was taken back to B&Q today for a full refund - no questions asked
(well, apart from "Is it faulty?" so that they can restock it).

I'll tell Dad not to use his current light until something is done about the
wiring.

I'm going to buy him a stepladder instead - much safer! )

Thanks for the help everybody - you may have saved a life!!!

Daz

Kroma wrote:

The lamp was taken back to B&Q today for a full refund - no questions asked
(well, apart from "Is it faulty?" so that they can restock it).

I'll tell Dad not to use his current light until something is done about the
wiring.

I'm going to buy him a stepladder instead - much safer! )

Thanks for the help everybody - you may have saved a life!!!

Daz

Or maybe the opposite. A stepladder is much more risk than an unearthed
light fitting. But then if it replaces a table and chair its reducing
risk... and if this reduction in risk encuorages more frequent use it
adds risk... who said life was simple!


NT

wrote in message
oups.com...

Or maybe the opposite. A stepladder is much more risk than an unearthed
light fitting. But then if it replaces a table and chair its reducing
risk... and if this reduction in risk encuorages more frequent use it
adds risk... who said life was simple!

Exactly... I'll tell him to use it as an ornament - that should do the
trick.

Watch out for the headline "Man Killed in Freak Ornamental Stepladder
Disaster"!!!

)

Daz