I live in a maisonette built in the 60s. The front door is wooden, with
glass top and bottom. The glass is held in with beading not putty.
When I moved in last year, it hadn't been refurbished or reglazed since
the place was built. I considered getting a new door, as several
neighbours have done, but decided instead to keep the original and get
it reglazed.

I went to a local glazier, chose a pattern (stippolyte I believe it's
called) and asked their advice about how thick the glass could be. I
wanted it to be as thick as possible for security reasons however the
glaziers said it wouldn't make any difference as any glass could be
shattered just as easily. Didn't know that before.

They sent someone round to have a look and measure. He said they could
fit double-glazing of a certain thickness. They quoted £215 for the
work and today they have been and done it. But I'm not very happy
because it turns out there is a metal strip all around which is visible.
The fitters said it was because of the depth of the rebate. They said
it was not possible to fit a double-glazed unit of that thickness,
without the metal strip being visible, because the rebate was not deep
enough.

It wasn't important to me to have double-glazing in the door, as it only
opens into a stairway. If they had told me before hand that this metal
strip would be visible with double-glazing, I would have asked for
single-glazing. However, when I rang them up and said that, they said
they don't do single-glazing. I feel that in that case they ought to
have explained the situation to me and then I could have chosen to go
elsewhere to get the door single-glazed.

Am I being unreasonable? I would really prefer it to be redone with
single glazing so that there's no metal strip showing, but it seems as
if that will have to be done by a different company. Any advice on the
best and fairest (to all concerned) way of dealing with this problem?
They are ringing back to discuss it later today. Appreciate any
opinions.

Anna

"Anna" wrote in message
...
I live in a maisonette built in the 60s. The front door is wooden, with
glass top and bottom. The glass is held in with beading not putty.
When I moved in last year, it hadn't been refurbished or reglazed since
the place was built. I considered getting a new door, as several
neighbours have done, but decided instead to keep the original and get
it reglazed.

I went to a local glazier, chose a pattern (stippolyte I believe it's
called) and asked their advice about how thick the glass could be. I
wanted it to be as thick as possible for security reasons however the
glaziers said it wouldn't make any difference as any glass could be
shattered just as easily. Didn't know that before.

They sent someone round to have a look and measure. He said they could
fit double-glazing of a certain thickness. They quoted £215 for the
work and today they have been and done it. But I'm not very happy
because it turns out there is a metal strip all around which is visible.
The fitters said it was because of the depth of the rebate. They said
it was not possible to fit a double-glazed unit of that thickness,
without the metal strip being visible, because the rebate was not deep
enough.

It wasn't important to me to have double-glazing in the door, as it only
opens into a stairway. If they had told me before hand that this metal
strip would be visible with double-glazing, I would have asked for
single-glazing. However, when I rang them up and said that, they said
they don't do single-glazing. I feel that in that case they ought to
have explained the situation to me and then I could have chosen to go
elsewhere to get the door single-glazed.

Am I being unreasonable? I would really prefer it to be redone with
single glazing so that there's no metal strip showing, but it seems as
if that will have to be done by a different company. Any advice on the
best and fairest (to all concerned) way of dealing with this problem?
They are ringing back to discuss it later today. Appreciate any
opinions.

Anna

I think that you have been misled

It is common practice in doors to fit single pane safety glass which is very
difficult to break through although it will crack if hit
Its construction is in fact 2 panes of 3mm glass bonded together with a
polythene type membrane
total thickness is therefore 6mm which will fit almost any existing rebate

This is similar in its security and safety level to wired glass but nicer to
look at

Double glazed units are no more secure than single glazed if hit with a
sharp object
(They may be made of toughened glass which breaks into small not sharp
pieces much like a car window) bit don't do much for security)

Tony

Anna wrote:
They sent someone round to have a look and measure. He said they could
fit double-glazing of a certain thickness. They quoted £215 for the
work and today they have been and done it. But I'm not very happy
because it turns out there is a metal strip all around which is visible.
The fitters said it was because of the depth of the rebate. They said
it was not possible to fit a double-glazed unit of that thickness,
without the metal strip being visible, because the rebate was not deep
enough.

They perhaps could have said something about it - however, I don't
think you'll be able to force them to change it. They just might,
as a goodwill gesture - they might also help you to disguise it,
by running some decorative film around the edge. Ask nicely before
sticking the boot in!


Am I being unreasonable? I would really prefer it to be redone with
single glazing so that there's no metal strip showing, but it seems as
if that will have to be done by a different company. Any advice on the
best and fairest (to all concerned) way of dealing with this problem?
They are ringing back to discuss it later today. Appreciate any
opinions.

If you do get single glazing, & judging by the fact that you thought
thick glass is harder to break you are at least a little concerned
about security, specify laminated glass. This is a real swine to
break though.

In article , says...

"Anna" wrote in message
...

[..]


They sent someone round to have a look and measure. He said they could
fit double-glazing of a certain thickness. They quoted £215 for the
work and today they have been and done it. But I'm not very happy
because it turns out there is a metal strip all around which is visible.
The fitters said it was because of the depth of the rebate. They said
it was not possible to fit a double-glazed unit of that thickness,
without the metal strip being visible, because the rebate was not deep
enough.

It wasn't important to me to have double-glazing in the door, as it only
opens into a stairway. If they had told me before hand that this metal
strip would be visible with double-glazing, I would have asked for
single-glazing.

[..]


I think that you have been misled

It is common practice in doors to fit single pane safety glass which is very
difficult to break through although it will crack if hit
Its construction is in fact 2 panes of 3mm glass bonded together with a
polythene type membrane
total thickness is therefore 6mm which will fit almost any existing rebate


Thanks, that's extremely useful to know.

Before I try to repeat that to the glaziers -- I don't understand why
it's called single pane if it is 2 panes bonded together? Doesn't that
make it double-glazing?

Anna

"TMC" wrote in message
...

It is common practice in doors to fit single pane safety glass which is
very difficult to break through although it will crack if hit
Its construction is in fact 2 panes of 3mm glass bonded together with a
polythene type membrane
total thickness is therefore 6mm which will fit almost any existing rebate

This is similar in its security and safety level to wired glass but nicer
to look at

It is *far* safer and stronger than wired glass.
Wired glass is really for windows in fire barriers as it will stay in there
for longer.
It won't stop you falling through the window on a balcony for instance wile
laminated glass will even though you frequently see it used for this.

Double glazed units are no more secure than single glazed if hit with a
sharp object
(They may be made of toughened glass which breaks into small not sharp
pieces much like a car window) bit don't do much for security)

They make a lot of noise.

"Anna" wrote:

Thanks, that's extremely useful to know.

Before I try to repeat that to the glaziers -- I don't understand why
it's called single pane if it is 2 panes bonded together? Doesn't that
make it double-glazing?

Anna

No. Double glazing is two separate sheets of glass with a gap between, the
gap being air or gas filled.

In article ,
says...

They perhaps could have said something about it - however, I don't
think you'll be able to force them to change it. They just might,
as a goodwill gesture - they might also help you to disguise it,
by running some decorative film around the edge. Ask nicely before
sticking the boot in!

Um, I don't make a habit of sticking boots in. As I said, I'm looking
for opinions on what would be fairest to all concerned. So I'm prepared
to compromise. But just putting up with what they've done is not my
idea of "fairest to all concerned". I didn't go in asking for double-
glazing, it was the glaziers who suggested it -- presumably, I now
realize, because double-glazing is all they do. If they had explained
that, and told me the consequences of having double-glazing (i.e. the
strip being visible), I would have gone elsewhere and got single-glazing
and by now all would be hunky-dory.

My plan is to ask them to reglaze the door using the type of glass
recommended by Tony (two panes bonded together). If they aren't willing
to do that, then we will have to try to negotiate a compromise, such as
if I pay them (quite a bit) less than the £215 and get someone else to
reglaze it.

Would sooner brick the door up altogether than have decorative film
around the edge.


If you do get single glazing, & judging by the fact that you thought
thick glass is harder to break you are at least a little concerned
about security, specify laminated glass. This is a real swine to
break though.


Is that the same as the two panes of glass bonded together? It does
seem the best solution.

Anna

"Anna" wrote in message
...
In article , says...

"Anna" wrote in message
...

[..]


They sent someone round to have a look and measure. He said they could
fit double-glazing of a certain thickness. They quoted £215 for the
work and today they have been and done it. But I'm not very happy
because it turns out there is a metal strip all around which is
visible.
The fitters said it was because of the depth of the rebate. They said
it was not possible to fit a double-glazed unit of that thickness,
without the metal strip being visible, because the rebate was not deep
enough.

It wasn't important to me to have double-glazing in the door, as it
only
opens into a stairway. If they had told me before hand that this metal
strip would be visible with double-glazing, I would have asked for
single-glazing.

[..]


I think that you have been misled

It is common practice in doors to fit single pane safety glass which is
very
difficult to break through although it will crack if hit
Its construction is in fact 2 panes of 3mm glass bonded together with a
polythene type membrane
total thickness is therefore 6mm which will fit almost any existing
rebate


Thanks, that's extremely useful to know.

Before I try to repeat that to the glaziers -- I don't understand why
it's called single pane if it is 2 panes bonded together? Doesn't that
make it double-glazing?

Anna

Hi Anna

Its just called safety or laminated glass I was merely describing its
construction

Double or even triple glazing involves separate panes of glass with a gap
between them.
This gap can be as little as 10mm but in practice may be 20mm or even 25mm
It is this air gap which assists the insulation and heat retention within
the room

Tony

Anna wrote:
chrispbacon says...
They perhaps could have said something about it - however, I don't
think you'll be able to force them to change it. They just might,
as a goodwill gesture - they might also help you to disguise it,
by running some decorative film around the edge. Ask nicely before
sticking the boot in!

Um, I don't make a habit of sticking boots in. As I said, I'm looking
for opinions on what would be fairest to all concerned. So I'm prepared
to compromise. But just putting up with what they've done is not my
idea of "fairest to all concerned". I didn't go in asking for double-
glazing, it was the glaziers who suggested it -- presumably, I now
realize, because double-glazing is all they do. If they had explained
that, and told me the consequences of having double-glazing (i.e. the
strip being visible), I would have gone elsewhere and got single-glazing
and by now all would be hunky-dory.

Yup. That's between you and them - good luck!


My plan is to ask them to reglaze the door using the type of glass
recommended by Tony (two panes bonded together). If they aren't willing
to do that, then we will have to try to negotiate a compromise, such as
if I pay them (quite a bit) less than the £215 and get someone else to
reglaze it.

Would sooner brick the door up altogether than have decorative film
around the edge.

Well, it was just a suggestion, as you asked for them... I don't
like these stick-on things either, I might add.


If you do get single glazing, & judging by the fact that you thought
thick glass is harder to break you are at least a little concerned
about security, specify laminated glass. This is a real swine to
break though.


Is that the same as the two panes of glass bonded together? It does
seem the best solution.

That's it - "laminated" - hated by burglars generally. Assuming the
frame, door or whatever is secure, to get through laminated glass
needs a fair and sustained effort with a hammer or something.

TMC wrote:
Double or even triple glazing involves separate panes of glass with a gap
between them.
This gap can be as little as 10mm but in practice may be 20mm or even 25mm
It is this air gap which assists the insulation and heat retention within
the room

You can get it down to 4-6-4 as standard units. This sort of double
glazing (even in the larger thicknesses) does very little to help
noise reduction, though (compared to single glazing).

In article ,
says...
"Anna" wrote:

Before I try to repeat that to the glaziers -- I don't understand why
it's called single pane if it is 2 panes bonded together? Doesn't that
make it double-glazing?

No. Double glazing is two separate sheets of glass with a gap between, the
gap being air or gas filled.


I see. Thanks.

Anna

In article , says...

"Anna" wrote in message
...

Before I try to repeat that to the glaziers -- I don't understand why
it's called single pane if it is 2 panes bonded together? Doesn't that
make it double-glazing?

Its just called safety or laminated glass I was merely describing its
construction

Double or even triple glazing involves separate panes of glass with a gap
between them.
This gap can be as little as 10mm but in practice may be 20mm or even 25mm
It is this air gap which assists the insulation and heat retention within
the room

I understand now. The glaziers have not rung back, so I will write to
them tomorrow and ask them if they can replace the double-glazing with
laminated glass. Sounds like exactly what I was looking for.

Many thanks for your help.

Anna

In article ,
says...
Anna wrote:

Would sooner brick the door up altogether than have decorative film
around the edge.

Well, it was just a suggestion, as you asked for them... I don't
like these stick-on things either, I might add.

No. Though now I think about it, bricking the door up might be a little
over the top. g


If you do get single glazing, & judging by the fact that you thought
thick glass is harder to break you are at least a little concerned
about security, specify laminated glass. This is a real swine to
break though.


Is that the same as the two panes of glass bonded together? It does
seem the best solution.

That's it - "laminated" - hated by burglars generally. Assuming the
frame, door or whatever is secure, to get through laminated glass
needs a fair and sustained effort with a hammer or something.


That's what I shall try for then. Thanks a lot.

Anna

Anna wrote:
In article ,
says...
If you do get single glazing, & judging by the fact that you thought
thick glass is harder to break you are at least a little concerned
about security, specify laminated glass. This is a real swine to
break though.

Is that the same as the two panes of glass bonded together? It does
seem the best solution.

That's it - "laminated" - hated by burglars generally. Assuming the
frame, door or whatever is secure, to get through laminated glass
needs a fair and sustained effort with a hammer or something.

Yes, definitely ask for 'laminated' - that's the buzzword - don't even
mention anything about panes bonded together or that will introduce
double-glazing-type confusion.

From what I've heard, this outfit sounds an absolute shower. What do
they mean, they don't do single glazing? Evidently they manufacture
double-glazing units - what's that made from? Er, single panes of glass.
Is the company one of these replacement window-type companies, rather
than a proper glazier? If they really don't do single glazing, they
should have come clean and turned the job down, rather than stitching
you up with an inappropriate double-glazed unit.

The point is that there are a huge number of windows around the country
which can only take single panes of glass, not sealed units; the one in
your door is one of them - that's why you can see the edge of the unit
exposed round the edge, as it's too deep for the recess. The company
had no business to be fitting a sealed unit in there if it wasn't meant
to take one.

If I were you my next step would be to get quotes from a couple of other
(proper!) glaziers to supply and fit a pane of laminated glass of
whatever size it is. I think you have a pretty strong case against the
original company - might be worth a phone call to your local trading
standards officer to see what he reckons... if he agrees, that would be
ammunition for you to use when you are negotiating with the firm for
your refund!

David

you could use a deeper glazing bead to cover the metal edging of the d/g
unit ,this would be the best way to go alround and be the least
expensive,even if they had to be specially made up

In article ,
says...

From what I've heard, this outfit sounds an absolute shower. What do
they mean, they don't do single glazing? Evidently they manufacture
double-glazing units - what's that made from? Er, single panes of glass.
Is the company one of these replacement window-type companies, rather
than a proper glazier? If they really don't do single glazing, they
should have come clean and turned the job down, rather than stitching
you up with an inappropriate double-glazed unit


I think that's exactly the problem. I thought they were glaziers, but
now it seems that they may be just a replacement-window company. The
way I got to them, I was asking about glass in B%Q, thinking that I
might be able to get the glass cut and then find someone to install it.
But it turns out B&Q don't sell glass, so I asked them if they knew of a
glazier, and this is the place they recommended. The shop seemed to me
like a normal glazier, and when I explained what I wanted, I had a long
and quite interesting chat with a guy who went back a long way, we were
talking about how craftsmen used to be trained through apprenticeships
and people learned a skill for years and years and really got experience
with what they were doing. He talked a lot about different types of
glass, and really seemed to know what he was talking about. Haven't
seen him since.

The point is that there are a huge number of windows around the country
which can only take single panes of glass, not sealed units; the one in
your door is one of them - that's why you can see the edge of the unit
exposed round the edge, as it's too deep for the recess. The company
had no business to be fitting a sealed unit in there if it wasn't meant
to take one.

I'm not sure if the glass is sitting in the recess at all. It seems
possible that not only is the recess too shallow, but also it may be too
narrow, so that possibly the double-glazed unit has just been glued in
and the beading put back around it. The reason I think that is that the
beading no longer sits quite flush with the door.

If I were you my next step would be to get quotes from a couple of other
(proper!) glaziers to supply and fit a pane of laminated glass of
whatever size it is. I think you have a pretty strong case against the
original company - might be worth a phone call to your local trading
standards officer to see what he reckons... if he agrees, that would be
ammunition for you to use when you are negotiating with the firm for
your refund!

Fortunately, I haven't paid yet, but I will have to sort something out
with them. They haven't rung me back, so it may be that they realize
that they are in the wrong. Otherwise you would think they'd be on the
phone demanding their money. I'll take your advice and get a couple of
quotes, and then write to the company to ask them if they want to put it
right and get paid.

Thanks very much for your advice.

Anna

In article ,
says...
you could use a deeper glazing bead to cover the metal edging of the d/g
unit ,this would be the best way to go alround and be the least
expensive,even if they had to be specially made up

Yes, I thought of that. I went outside and eyed it up to think what it
would look like. Trouble is, all the doors in this block are the same,
and to have a wider beading would make mine look different. Which I
would rather avoid, and also think the Residents' Association might not
be too happy. So I think that I will try to go back to scratch and get
it done properly, even if it ends up costing me more money than it
should have done.

Thanks for the suggestion.

Anna