what is the best flue gas anyliser in your opinions/experience, make and
model?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Gav ""gavbriggs\"@[cut the
spam]blueyonder.co.uk" saying something like:

what is the best flue gas anyliser in your opinions/experience, make and
model?

Without a doubt, the Kane 400, but they're not cheap.
--

Dave

In message , Gav writes
what is the best flue gas anyliser in your opinions/experience, make
and model?

Sorry, no idea

Ed might be the best one to answer this

--
geoff

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 21:46:23 +0000, raden wrote:

In message , Gav writes
what is the best flue gas anyliser in your opinions/experience, make
and model?

Sorry, no idea

Ed might be the best one to answer this

Mine's a Kane 400.
It cost £400 to buy.
It costs £200 every other year to keep running, apart from the fact that I
ought to have the machine calibrated from time to time the O2 cell lasts
about two years. So as soon as it fails to initialize I send it to Kane.

I rarely use the digital manometer.
I never use the temp probes
I use the CO2 + CO/CO2 readings all the while.
I don't have or need the printer
It does not do NOx or smoke, which I understand is important for oil
burners.

It may well be that a Kane 250 which only has the gas analyser (and maybe
the temp - I haven't taken note of the spec) would work for me just
aswell.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes:
Mine's a Kane 400.
It cost £400 to buy.
It costs £200 every other year to keep running, apart from the fact that I
ought to have the machine calibrated from time to time the O2 cell lasts
about two years. So as soon as it fails to initialize I send it to Kane.

I rarely use the digital manometer.
I never use the temp probes
I use the CO2 + CO/CO2 readings all the while.
I don't have or need the printer
It does not do NOx or smoke, which I understand is important for oil
burners.

It may well be that a Kane 250 which only has the gas analyser (and maybe
the temp - I haven't taken note of the spec) would work for me just
aswell.

I have the 250, and I believe it has everything you need (and
more) to do a gas boiler service. It does have temperature probe.
If you are not in a hurry for one, just keep an eye out over
some months for special offers. IIRC, mine came from BES.
This is something I wouldn't risk buying second-hand, at least
not without factoring in a service by Kane, and the possibility
of finding you bought an unrepairable one, which means it would
have to be almost free in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

BTW Ed, I thought it was the CO monitor which had the limited
life? Mine's about 16 months old but doesn't get anywhere near
the usage a gas engineer's one would. It is still initialising
in about 15 seconds, which is what it was when new, so it may
be dependant on use. (When it takes more than 60 seconds, the
sensor is regarded as worn out.) I also saw a suggestion
somewhere that life is significantly lengthened if you make
sure you purge all the CO from the sensor before you switch off.
The unit tries to do this anyway, but I don't even attempt to
turn it off (or turn off the air pump) until CO reading has
dropped to 1 or 0 ppm. Don't really know if that helps though.
I also keep it in a sealed plastic bag when not in use, to
help avoid background contaminents slowly degrading the sensors,
although again, I don't know if that makes any difference, but
it would be less so anyway for one which was frequently used.

--
Andrew Gabriel

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:54:52 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes:
Mine's a Kane 400.
It cost £400 to buy.
It costs £200 every other year to keep running, apart from the fact that I
ought to have the machine calibrated from time to time the O2 cell lasts
about two years. So as soon as it fails to initialize I send it to Kane.

I rarely use the digital manometer.
I never use the temp probes
I use the CO2 + CO/CO2 readings all the while.
I don't have or need the printer
It does not do NOx or smoke, which I understand is important for oil
burners.

It may well be that a Kane 250 which only has the gas analyser (and maybe
the temp - I haven't taken note of the spec) would work for me just
aswell.

I have the 250, and I believe it has everything you need (and
more) to do a gas boiler service. It does have temperature probe.
If you are not in a hurry for one, just keep an eye out over
some months for special offers. IIRC, mine came from BES.
This is something I wouldn't risk buying second-hand, at least
not without factoring in a service by Kane, and the possibility
of finding you bought an unrepairable one, which means it would
have to be almost free in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

BTW Ed, I thought it was the CO monitor which had the limited
life? Mine's about 16 months old but doesn't get anywhere near
the usage a gas engineer's one would. It is still initialising
in about 15 seconds, which is what it was when new, so it may
be dependant on use. (When it takes more than 60 seconds, the
sensor is regarded as worn out.) I also saw a suggestion
somewhere that life is significantly lengthened if you make
sure you purge all the CO from the sensor before you switch off.
The unit tries to do this anyway, but I don't even attempt to
turn it off (or turn off the air pump) until CO reading has
dropped to 1 or 0 ppm. Don't really know if that helps though.
I also keep it in a sealed plastic bag when not in use, to
help avoid background contaminents slowly degrading the sensors,
although again, I don't know if that makes any difference, but
it would be less so anyway for one which was frequently used.

Those are helpful points. Although I can image much gas getting into it
when it's switched off.

The first time I had trouble it just took longer and longer to initialize.
The second time I had trouble it took over the normal twenty seconds once
and the next time it failed to initialize even with new batts.


The real fun comes when the alarm goes off when the CO is over 1000(?)ppm.
I have been to two boilers when that has happened.
On the first one the conversation went along the lines.
"Are you going to let me use the heating again?".
"No way. The condemn notice is staying put." (I had been called in to
give a second opinion).
"Do you want to talk about a new boiler?".
"No. I'll keep on using my paraffin heaters."

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:54:52 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes:
Mine's a Kane 400.
It cost £400 to buy.
It costs £200 every other year to keep running, apart from the fact that I
ought to have the machine calibrated from time to time the O2 cell lasts
about two years. So as soon as it fails to initialize I send it to Kane.

I rarely use the digital manometer.
I never use the temp probes
I use the CO2 + CO/CO2 readings all the while.
I don't have or need the printer
It does not do NOx or smoke, which I understand is important for oil
burners.

It may well be that a Kane 250 which only has the gas analyser (and maybe
the temp - I haven't taken note of the spec) would work for me just
aswell.
I have the 250, and I believe it has everything you need (and
more) to do a gas boiler service. It does have temperature probe.
If you are not in a hurry for one, just keep an eye out over
some months for special offers. IIRC, mine came from BES.
This is something I wouldn't risk buying second-hand, at least
not without factoring in a service by Kane, and the possibility
of finding you bought an unrepairable one, which means it would
have to be almost free in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

BTW Ed, I thought it was the CO monitor which had the limited
life? Mine's about 16 months old but doesn't get anywhere near
the usage a gas engineer's one would. It is still initialising
in about 15 seconds, which is what it was when new, so it may
be dependant on use. (When it takes more than 60 seconds, the
sensor is regarded as worn out.) I also saw a suggestion
somewhere that life is significantly lengthened if you make
sure you purge all the CO from the sensor before you switch off.
The unit tries to do this anyway, but I don't even attempt to
turn it off (or turn off the air pump) until CO reading has
dropped to 1 or 0 ppm. Don't really know if that helps though.
I also keep it in a sealed plastic bag when not in use, to
help avoid background contaminents slowly degrading the sensors,
although again, I don't know if that makes any difference, but
it would be less so anyway for one which was frequently used.

Those are helpful points. Although I can image much gas getting into it
when it's switched off.

The first time I had trouble it just took longer and longer to initialize.
The second time I had trouble it took over the normal twenty seconds once
and the next time it failed to initialize even with new batts.


The real fun comes when the alarm goes off when the CO is over 1000(?)ppm.
I have been to two boilers when that has happened.
On the first one the conversation went along the lines.
"Are you going to let me use the heating again?".
"No way. The condemn notice is staying put." (I had been called in to
give a second opinion).
"Do you want to talk about a new boiler?".
"No. I'll keep on using my paraffin heaters."

cheers ed, interesting, i didn't know they were so high maintenance
objects! are they a needed piece of kit or just a glorified toy to make
things simple? with todays trend towards zero govenors and room sealed
appliances is there any point going that deep into things, most of the
time the manufacturers want you/customer to buy a new appliance. i think
soon it will be easier and possibly cheaper to throw the old out and get
new in.

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:23:37 +0000, Gav wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:54:52 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes:
Mine's a Kane 400.
It cost £400 to buy.
It costs £200 every other year to keep running, apart from the fact that I
ought to have the machine calibrated from time to time the O2 cell lasts
about two years. So as soon as it fails to initialize I send it to Kane.

I rarely use the digital manometer.
I never use the temp probes
I use the CO2 + CO/CO2 readings all the while.
I don't have or need the printer
It does not do NOx or smoke, which I understand is important for oil
burners.

It may well be that a Kane 250 which only has the gas analyser (and maybe
the temp - I haven't taken note of the spec) would work for me just
aswell.
I have the 250, and I believe it has everything you need (and
more) to do a gas boiler service. It does have temperature probe.
If you are not in a hurry for one, just keep an eye out over
some months for special offers. IIRC, mine came from BES.
This is something I wouldn't risk buying second-hand, at least
not without factoring in a service by Kane, and the possibility
of finding you bought an unrepairable one, which means it would
have to be almost free in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

BTW Ed, I thought it was the CO monitor which had the limited
life? Mine's about 16 months old but doesn't get anywhere near
the usage a gas engineer's one would. It is still initialising
in about 15 seconds, which is what it was when new, so it may
be dependant on use. (When it takes more than 60 seconds, the
sensor is regarded as worn out.) I also saw a suggestion
somewhere that life is significantly lengthened if you make
sure you purge all the CO from the sensor before you switch off.
The unit tries to do this anyway, but I don't even attempt to
turn it off (or turn off the air pump) until CO reading has
dropped to 1 or 0 ppm. Don't really know if that helps though.
I also keep it in a sealed plastic bag when not in use, to
help avoid background contaminents slowly degrading the sensors,
although again, I don't know if that makes any difference, but
it would be less so anyway for one which was frequently used.

Those are helpful points. Although I can image much gas getting into it
when it's switched off.

The first time I had trouble it just took longer and longer to initialize.
The second time I had trouble it took over the normal twenty seconds once
and the next time it failed to initialize even with new batts.


The real fun comes when the alarm goes off when the CO is over 1000(?)ppm.
I have been to two boilers when that has happened.
On the first one the conversation went along the lines.
"Are you going to let me use the heating again?".
"No way. The condemn notice is staying put." (I had been called in to
give a second opinion).
"Do you want to talk about a new boiler?".
"No. I'll keep on using my paraffin heaters."

cheers ed, interesting, i didn't know they were so high maintenance
objects! are they a needed piece of kit or just a glorified toy to make
things simple? with todays trend towards zero govenors and room sealed
appliances is there any point going that deep into things, most of the
time the manufacturers want you/customer to buy a new appliance. i think
soon it will be easier and possibly cheaper to throw the old out and get
new in.

Room sealed boilers have been common place for a very long time.

The real issue is that
a) quite a few boilers don't seem to be tuned up correctly
right out of the box. This may be due to the influence of the huge
equivalent flue lengths that can be used (especially on Kestons).
My experience with Vaillants is that they generally are fine but then
again the flue is always a 'standard' through the wall job.

b) It gives me an option to choose whether to overhaul a burner when doing
a routine service. If a boiler gives 0.4% or more for the CO/CO2 ratio
then I will strip it down.

c) Some boilers don't have any way of observing the flames so without this
tool there is no way to check the combustion and thus comply with the
spirit of the gas regs on commissioning. Whereas trying to check by
measuring the gas rate has pitfalls and is time consuming.

As outlined in the Boiler Choice FAQ the cost of installing a boiler
together with the typical purchase cost of an average or better unit means
that boilers are not disposable items like low end TVs or W/Machines.



--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In article ,
Gav ""gavbriggs\"@[cut the spam]blueyonder.co.uk" writes:
cheers ed, interesting, i didn't know they were so high maintenance
objects! are they a needed piece of kit or just a glorified toy to make
things simple? with todays trend towards zero govenors and room sealed
appliances is there any point going that deep into things, most of the
time the manufacturers want you/customer to buy a new appliance. i think
soon it will be easier and possibly cheaper to throw the old out and get
new in.

I found it essential for getting my Keston Celcius 25 setup
properly. The claims in the manual that the mixture was
correctly adjusted prior to leaving the factory were so far
off that it didn't operate correctly until adjusted.
OTOH, lots of CORGI engineers seem to manage without one.
If you are just installing one boiler, you would possibly be
better off hiring one when you do the commissioning. If you are
servicing a few boilers a year around your family, then it may
be worthwhile to buy one, although once the mixture is right,
I've never found a boiler needs any more adjustment on a
subsequent service.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 23:23:37 +0000, Gav wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 08:54:52 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes:
Mine's a Kane 400.
It cost £400 to buy.
It costs £200 every other year to keep running, apart from the fact that I
ought to have the machine calibrated from time to time the O2 cell lasts
about two years. So as soon as it fails to initialize I send it to Kane.

I rarely use the digital manometer.
I never use the temp probes
I use the CO2 + CO/CO2 readings all the while.
I don't have or need the printer
It does not do NOx or smoke, which I understand is important for oil
burners.

It may well be that a Kane 250 which only has the gas analyser (and maybe
the temp - I haven't taken note of the spec) would work for me just
aswell.
I have the 250, and I believe it has everything you need (and
more) to do a gas boiler service. It does have temperature probe.
If you are not in a hurry for one, just keep an eye out over
some months for special offers. IIRC, mine came from BES.
This is something I wouldn't risk buying second-hand, at least
not without factoring in a service by Kane, and the possibility
of finding you bought an unrepairable one, which means it would
have to be almost free in the first place as far as I'm concerned.

BTW Ed, I thought it was the CO monitor which had the limited
life? Mine's about 16 months old but doesn't get anywhere near
the usage a gas engineer's one would. It is still initialising
in about 15 seconds, which is what it was when new, so it may
be dependant on use. (When it takes more than 60 seconds, the
sensor is regarded as worn out.) I also saw a suggestion
somewhere that life is significantly lengthened if you make
sure you purge all the CO from the sensor before you switch off.
The unit tries to do this anyway, but I don't even attempt to
turn it off (or turn off the air pump) until CO reading has
dropped to 1 or 0 ppm. Don't really know if that helps though.
I also keep it in a sealed plastic bag when not in use, to
help avoid background contaminents slowly degrading the sensors,
although again, I don't know if that makes any difference, but
it would be less so anyway for one which was frequently used.
Those are helpful points. Although I can image much gas getting into it
when it's switched off.

The first time I had trouble it just took longer and longer to initialize.
The second time I had trouble it took over the normal twenty seconds once
and the next time it failed to initialize even with new batts.


The real fun comes when the alarm goes off when the CO is over 1000(?)ppm.
I have been to two boilers when that has happened.
On the first one the conversation went along the lines.
"Are you going to let me use the heating again?".
"No way. The condemn notice is staying put." (I had been called in to
give a second opinion).
"Do you want to talk about a new boiler?".
"No. I'll keep on using my paraffin heaters."

cheers ed, interesting, i didn't know they were so high maintenance
objects! are they a needed piece of kit or just a glorified toy to make
things simple? with todays trend towards zero govenors and room sealed
appliances is there any point going that deep into things, most of the
time the manufacturers want you/customer to buy a new appliance. i think
soon it will be easier and possibly cheaper to throw the old out and get
new in.

Room sealed boilers have been common place for a very long time.

The real issue is that
a) quite a few boilers don't seem to be tuned up correctly
right out of the box. This may be due to the influence of the huge
equivalent flue lengths that can be used (especially on Kestons).
My experience with Vaillants is that they generally are fine but then
again the flue is always a 'standard' through the wall job.

b) It gives me an option to choose whether to overhaul a burner when doing
a routine service. If a boiler gives 0.4% or more for the CO/CO2 ratio
then I will strip it down.

c) Some boilers don't have any way of observing the flames so without this
tool there is no way to check the combustion and thus comply with the
spirit of the gas regs on commissioning. Whereas trying to check by
measuring the gas rate has pitfalls and is time consuming.

As outlined in the Boiler Choice FAQ the cost of installing a boiler
together with the typical purchase cost of an average or better unit means
that boilers are not disposable items like low end TVs or W/Machines.



best to have one really i think now as time cost and reliability of gas
rating etc are not as good as the machines!

note to self: save all the spare change you can get to buy a kane gas
analyser