Friends are looking at buying a house. Nice old 1890ish terrace, two
floors and a full-size cellar.

Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from
the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.

Any suggestions on fixes?

Any suggestions on fixes?

Sorry, but all I can think of right now is the tellytubbies shouting
"run away !!!!"

Can they get the current owner to get a full structural survey and foot
the cost of any remedial work required ?

I wonder when the "house packs" become a legal requirement for
sellers...

In message , Colin
Wilson writes
Any suggestions on fixes?

Sorry, but all I can think of right now is the tellytubbies shouting
"run away !!!!"

Can they get the current owner to get a full structural survey and foot
the cost of any remedial work required ?

I wonder when the "house packs" become a legal requirement for
sellers...

Wont make much difference... The new Home Inspectors will not be trained
to the levels of Chartered Surveyors, and the report will almost
certainly not be acceptable to lenders.

--
Richard Faulkner

Andy Dingley wrote:
Friends are looking at buying a house. Nice old 1890ish terrace, two
floors and a full-size cellar.

Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from
the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and

But a hellova weight of bricks above!

they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.

Any suggestions on fixes?

I'm sure someone will tell us what the required mechanism is, but all
I've got holding up my chimney in similar circumstances is a couple of
flat steel strips inserted horizontally into the remaining brickwork.
If the one you're looking at is the same they may simply be hidden by
the floorboards.

Chris

Andy Dingley wrote:
Friends are looking at buying a house. Nice old 1890ish terrace, two
floors and a full-size cellar.

Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from
the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.

Any suggestions on fixes?

I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.


NT

wrote:

I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.

What you do is go down the cellar and look at where the hearth was.
When you so it isn't that's when you know.

(Unless the idiots stripped out the floor and inserted lots and lots of
expensive ironmongery so they could have more room in the cellar.)

I would imagine that after having tons and tons of masonry cleing to
the gable wall there will be a fair bit of distortion. If you can't see
it and there are no cracks in it then it might be possible to repair it
for 10 or 15 thousand. (To take down the stack. I don't know if putting
the base back will be safe enough.)

When it collapses it will drop instantly and give little or no warning,
so the house will be uninhabitable untill all the chimney is removed or
reinstated.

I wouldn't bother. And it aught to be illegal to pass on dangerous
property like that whether or not the customer has been advised of it.

I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.

What you do is go down the cellar and look at where the hearth was.
When you so it isn't that's when you know.

(Unless the idiots stripped out the floor and inserted lots and lots of
expensive ironmongery so they could have more room in the cellar.)

I would imagine that after having tons and tons of masonry cleing to
the gable wall there will be a fair bit of distortion. If you can't see
it and there are no cracks in it then it might be possible to repair it
for 10 or 15 thousand. (To take down the stack. I don't know if putting
the base back will be safe enough.)

When it collapses it will drop instantly and give little or no warning,
so the house will be uninhabitable untill all the chimney is removed or
reinstated.

I wouldn't bother. And it aught to be illegal to pass on dangerous
property like that whether or not the customer has been advised of it.

It shouldn't cost 10k to remove a stack!! (Unless the house is huge
with more than 2 stacks. Ive removed a single stack in a kitchen for
less than 2k.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
wrote:

I'm wondering how you/they know its unsupported. Normally you'd have to
rip out some ceiling or floorboards to even get to look at whats going
on. Since the floorboards are there, is the house in such a state that
the necessary ceiling is missing? If not, the surveyor might have
misidentified the idiot.

What you do is go down the cellar and look at where the hearth was.
When you so it isn't that's when you know.

(Unless the idiots stripped out the floor and inserted lots and lots of
expensive ironmongery so they could have more room in the cellar.)

IOW since its a cellar there will be no ceiling.

Why on earth would someone remove only the cellar level of a stack?


NT

Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from

the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.


I often wonder at the hysteria that people get into when faced with
these problems. Assuming that the chimney is 4' wide and projects about
1'. Is it acually 1' or more probably10" single brick (9" plus plaster)
or 14" brick and a half. The chimney will be built out of the existing
flank wall so is corbelled back into the existing wall. I accept that
the corbelling is too severe and it should be a max of 25% of the wall
from which it protrudes. If it is a solid 9" wall then it could corbel
out to 11" then 13"and so on until it sufficiently supports the stack.
Some people will scoff but I have seen countless chimney stacks arch
over within the loft space and two breasts( I know what i mean!) merge
to the base of the chimney stack where it protrudes from the roof.
regards
Legin

legin wrote:

I often wonder at the hysteria that people get into when faced with
these problems. Assuming that the chimney is 4' wide and projects about
1'. Is it acually 1' or more probably10" single brick (9" plus plaster)
or 14" brick and a half. The chimney will be built out of the existing
flank wall so is corbelled back into the existing wall. I accept that
the corbelling is too severe and it should be a max of 25% of the wall
from which it protrudes. If it is a solid 9" wall then it could corbel
out to 11" then 13"and so on until it sufficiently supports the stack.
Some people will scoff but I have seen countless chimney stacks arch
over within the loft space and two breasts( I know what i mean!) merge
to the base of the chimney stack where it protrudes from the roof.

Well, there you have it, yer pays yer muni an yer takes yer choises.

Personally I'd steer clear or get a profitable price reduction. What
would really ice the cake is to find it has been listed.

Then you'd bend over backwards listing problems with a listing listed
building.

Weatherlawyer wrote:

Well, there you have it, yer pays yer muni an yer takes yer choises.

Personally I'd steer clear or get a profitable price reduction. What
would really ice the cake is to find it has been listed.

Then you'd bend over backwards listing problems with a listing listed
building.

The seller had better hope the building isnt listing then.

NT

On 21 Apr 2006 09:55:26 -0700, "legin"
wrote:

Unfortunately some idiot has previously removed the chimney breast from

the cellar level, leaving the chimney above unsupported! They've
removed the hearth slab and mantel, so the weight isn't too bad, and
they've filled the gap with matching floorboards (stripped floors).
However there's a 4' x 1' chimney breast hanging there with nowt
beneath. If you look up from below, you can see right up the flue and
practically out of the top.


I often wonder at the hysteria that people get into when faced with
these problems. Assuming that the chimney is 4' wide and projects about
1'. Is it acually 1' or more probably10" single brick (9" plus plaster)
or 14" brick and a half. The chimney will be built out of the existing
flank wall so is corbelled back into the existing wall. snip

I took the chimney breast out from the kitchen back bedroom of this
1897 end-of-terrace place and finally took the (small) stack down and
the remaining breast when the roof was refurbed (slates stripped,
lined, replaced).

I started by supporting the front face with an acro but soon found
that in spite of the mortar being mainly sand it was fairly well keyed
into the wall and wasn't 'falling' anywhere.

As most of the bricks were removed (by hand) intact I used them to
refill the 4 1/2" void ;-)

We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...

We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

Mary

All the best ..

T i m

T i m wrote:

I took the chimney breast out from the kitchen back bedroom of this
1897 end-of-terrace place and finally took the (small) stack down and
the remaining breast when the roof was refurbed (slates stripped,
lined, replaced).

I started by supporting the front face with an acro but soon found
that in spite of the mortar being mainly sand it was fairly well keyed
into the wall and wasn't 'falling' anywhere.

I should doubt very much that any chimney lacks at least a key at every
3rd course or so.

Some stacks can weigh a ton in a few feet as a brick is about 2 or 3
lbs of dried clay. They have no sheer resistance. What you do with a
column of bricks 20 or 30 feet high is your business.

But if you undermined it and invited me around, it would be for a
fight. What you were relying on was the integrity of the roof to resist
the gable holding the chimney up. A small amount of movement would have
taken place after every storm. And not gone back.

I don't understand how you could be such a damned fool and not realise
from the OP in this thread on, that there must have been some sort of
frictional type device holding up the chimneys discussed here.

What did you think was holding them up? Bird **** and wall paper paste.?

Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

"surveyor" wrote in message
oups.com...
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made. Best policy would
be to enquire with your local Building Control about making a
retrospective building regs application. The local building conrol
surveyor will then visit and advise you
You either need to have steel beam inserted or gallows brackets (not
all Councils allow them)
This type of work will be spotted when you come to sell by the Home
Inspector (home condition reports required from June 2007)so its best
sorted out now

Will the home condition reports have to be made in triplicate?

Mary

On 22 Apr 2006 04:26:32 -0700, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote:


T i m wrote:

I took the chimney breast out from the kitchen back bedroom of this
1897 end-of-terrace place and finally took the (small) stack down and
the remaining breast when the roof was refurbed (slates stripped,
lined, replaced).

I started by supporting the front face with an acro but soon found
that in spite of the mortar being mainly sand it was fairly well keyed
into the wall and wasn't 'falling' anywhere.

I should doubt very much that any chimney lacks at least a key at every
3rd course or so.

This was keyed every other course from memory ..

Some stacks can weigh a ton in a few feet as a brick is about 2 or 3
lbs of dried clay. They have no sheer resistance.

Possibly, but wouldn't the fact that the mortar was fairly soft allow
all the keys to take their share of the load, so the mass that was
free to fall would only be the centre course at the front (and
gradually coballing themselves back to the sides (and how infact I
took it down as it was supported by an acro at the ground fooor
fireplace).

What you do with a
column of bricks 20 or 30 feet high is your business.

I gently knocked at least 50% out with a 2lb hammer, knocked off the
mortar and stacked them neatly for reuse?


But if you undermined it and invited me around, it would be for a
fight.

Well you wouldn't have been offered a cuppa if you were to frigntened
to help.

What you were relying on was the integrity of the roof to resist
the gable holding the chimney up.

Eh? The chimney was standing 50% on the existing flank wall and the
side cheeks where there were keyd into the flank wall down to the
first floor (and from there to the ground floor to start with).

A small amount of movement would have
taken place after every storm. And not gone back.

Possibly .. this place has been squirming about for the last 100+
years ..?

I don't understand how you could be such a damned fool and not realise
from the OP in this thread on, that there must have been some sort of
frictional type device holding up the chimneys discussed here.

Ermm, not sure (again) what you are getting at here .. probably leagal
jargon .. ;-)


What did you think was holding them up? Bird **** and wall paper paste.?

I didn't 'think' what was holding them I knew, good brick bonds and
sandy lime mortar (and an acro while I was *actually* taking it down,
just in case ...)?

And that was 30 years ago now ..

What was potentially dangerous though was the builder that set the
joists against (rather than on with possibly a small birds mouth) the
wall plate on the new 'end wall' when he built the extension to the
rear addition. Fine if it was a pitched roof. Luckily he (finally)
agreed and did it properly ..

All the best ..

T i m

Yes there is opposition to the scheme but there's no going back. The
law has been approved by parliament The main problem initially will be
insufficient trained inspectors and dare I say the quality of the
peoplefundertaking the surveys. The freason for its introduction is to
make selling and buying easier. There is no going back to the way it is
at the moment. The doomsayers will need to propose a viable
alternative. Anyone for the Scottish system?
The other issue is that Europe issued a directive that all buildings
should have a energy rating. As the Home Inspector will carry out a
energy rating assessment of the property as part of the condition
survey this will satisfy this requirement

norwegionblue wrote:

Yes there is opposition to the scheme but there's no going back.

I take it that all this is to bring into line with sensible countries
where you have to tell the truth and stick to an agreement and all that
crap?

It will never catch on.

Because the work is a material alteration which is defined in the
building regulations. Trust me(joke) im an ex BC Surveyor better still
ring your local authority building control dept

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

BTW I was hearing on the radio the other morning about how a panel of
three people (a solicitor, a surveyor, and an estate agent) all thought
that the new scheme is doomed.

But the govinment insists that's it's The Way Forward.

Mary

norwegionblue wrote:

im an ex BC Surveyor

You do appear to have the required sense of humour :-P

surveyor wrote:
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

Chris Bacon wrote:

surveyor wrote:
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

I hate beaurocracy but I would hope most people would consider talking to
building control when removing bits of masonry holding up X-tons of masonry
above (partial removal) or holding up floor joists (total removal).

At least those people who know that you should talk to BC when knocking out
load bearing walls

I wonder why people are so keen to remove chimney breasts - one of my
criteria of house hunting of late is that it should have a chimney - at
least one that can be opened, relined and reinstated. I like open fires
from time to time and I still remember being grateful in the early 70's
that we were still toasty warm in one room at least when all around was
black for 6 hours at a time ;-) Even this year, a lot of houses in my
village were without electricity for a day or two thanks to April snow
bringing down trees across the power lines. If that had affected us in our
rented modern house, we would have been turning into the family Frosty.

Cheers

Tim

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:21:23 +0100, Chris Bacon
had this to say:

surveyor wrote:
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

The guvmint doesn't want people to do it themselves, does it?

Any fule noes that all d-i-yers are totally incompetent, in the eyes
of Prescott and Co.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:09:30 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .

We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

" two wall mounted gas fires downstairs", a storage rad in the bedroom
and in cupboard of bathroom, wall mounted balanced flue mini heater in
the daughters room.

Can't see the point trying to (efficiently) centrally heat a huge
solid brick flank wall ;-(

And we are motorcyclists, campers and cyclists .. being at a constant
22 deg C isn't that important to us .. ;-)

All the best ...

T i m

Chris Bacon wrote:

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this?

They come down on you like a ton of bricks, you fool. How'd you expect?

Some people are as dense as bricks. It's bloody frightening that somene
can pull the arse out of a chimney or undermine his foundations or some
other foolishness just because his mum or satanclaws bought him an SDS
for crimebo.

It's easily within the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

So is getting an official nod:

1. Find the local town hall telephone switchboard.

2. Ask for technical services.

3. Ask for building advice or an appointment to see someone about
whatever.

4. Get it sorted.

How hard is that?

"surveyor" wrote in message
ups.com...
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
snipped

But Tim did it 30 years ago if I'm not mistaken, long enough time to show
movement I think.
Would it have been notifiable 30 years ago?
Donwill

Donwill wrote:
"surveyor" wrote in message
ups.com...
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
snipped

But Tim did it 30 years ago if I'm not mistaken, long enough time to show
movement I think.
Would it have been notifiable 30 years ago?

It may or may not give way as long as the house stands. It's only got
to fall once.

It doesn't have to do damage to the gable. If it were made with
engineering brick for example or the flue reinforced with concrete
instead of infill.

Now for heaven's sake lets caustic soda this damned thread. It is full
of people who just want to yap at their tales.

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:47:35 +0100, Frank Erskine wrote:

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 22:21:23 +0100, Chris Bacon
had this to say:

surveyor wrote:
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
ie a building regs application should have been made.

How is Joe Bloggs supposed to know all this? It's easily within
the realms of D-I-Y, as is re-jigging bathrooms, doing drains,
and a host of other things.

The guvmint doesn't want people to do it themselves, does it?

It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

On 23 Apr 2006 01:14:57 -0700, "Weatherlawyer"
wrote:


Donwill wrote:
"surveyor" wrote in message
ups.com...
Removing chimney breasts is notifiable work under Building Regulations
snipped

But Tim did it 30 years ago if I'm not mistaken, long enough time to show
movement I think.
Would it have been notifiable 30 years ago?

It may or may not give way as long as the house stands. It's only got
to fall once.

Ok, last try, it's down, gone, missing, removed. Nothing to fall as
nothing is there. Try an imagine a house that doesn't have a chimney
breast or stack .. it's just like that and has been like that for 30
years now.

On top of that the room that once housed the breast is now bonded to a
new extension where the footings are about 3 (if not 4) times deeper
that the existing ones.

The 4 1/2" 'cavity' that was once the back of the breast was also
*bricked* (not ****e soft blocks notice) back up using the recovered
bricks and a matching (as near as I could) strength motar mix. The
concrete slab that once formed the first floor hearth was fully
removed. All cut / missing joists were replaced and floorboards
lifted and 'joggled' so as to reduce any weakness in the area of the
old breast. If I building inspector was to look at any of the area
today (kitchen, beedroom, loft or roof) there would be no obvious
signs that a chimney ever existed.

To answer 'your' other question Donwill (I note our expert didn't), it
was part of a general house improvement process I was doing at the
time (it had gas lighting, butler sink and outside loo etc) and much
of it was assisted with the aid of some small grants they were
offering. The BCO's (of the time) and others were in and out regularly
(especially as it was partly their money) so I would have assumed
would have said something if they were concerned / interested?

All the best ..

T i m

Ed Sirett wrote:

It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

But that is probably about as unstoppable as DIY. Making it difficult
will just cause it to be more invisible.


--
David Clark
$replyto = 'an.rnser.is.reqird'

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 11:09:30 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
. ..

We still have the other two chimney breasts that like Nigels merge in
the loft to a common (and shared with next door) stack. We still need
these as we don't have central heating but just two wall mounted gas
fires downstairs (that are rarely on). Probably just as well the way
gas prices are going! ;-(

How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

" two wall mounted gas fires downstairs",

"(that are rarely on)" :-)


Can't see the point trying to (efficiently) centrally heat a huge
solid brick flank wall ;-(

No.

And we are motorcyclists, campers and cyclists .. being at a constant
22 deg C isn't that important to us .. ;-)

Same here, in fact 22C sounds like the first stage of hell.

Mary

All the best ...

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...

Ok, last try, it's down, gone, missing, removed. Nothing to fall as
nothing is there.

Or as Spouse always says, "It can't fall, there's nothing to stop it."

Mary

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

Mary

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:56:42 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

And why three of my SE mates have left the country and gone to Canada,
NZ and France. ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:54:56 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:



How is your house heated? Or isn't it?

" two wall mounted gas fires downstairs",

"(that are rarely on)" :-)

Yup. The one in the middle room hasn't been on for probably 5 years
and the one in the lounge is only needed on the 'really' cold days.
There is no heating on now for example and we are both 'comfortable'
with bare arms?

Our daughter seems to like being a bit warmer (so set's her room
heater accordingly), possibly because of age or that she spends time
in other folks places that are often much warmer than here? Having
said that she still turns her heater off completely at night.


Can't see the point trying to (efficiently) centrally heat a huge
solid brick flank wall ;-(

No.

And we are motorcyclists, campers and cyclists .. being at a constant
22 deg C isn't that important to us .. ;-)

Same here, in fact 22C sounds like the first stage of hell.

Because 'she' is still going through the change and most places we go
are hotter than here and it's never long before she is standing in the
garden or flapping her folding fan about. They tried to take all the
personal fans away where she works and inspite of personal fans 'not
being allowed' soon got her's re-instated! You really don't want to
get between a woman having a flush and a cooling solution! ;-(

All the best ..

T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 12:56:42 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

It's not really diyers they want to stop (diy is unstoppable and
even penalties have little effect). It is clear that the main effect of
the legislation is to make self-employment a difficult and unattractive
business model.

They've already done that :-(

And why three of my SE mates have left the country and gone to Canada,
NZ and France. ;-(

I hate saying this but if I were younger ...

In fact some time ago, when that chap who blew the whistle on WMD was found
dead, I looked up how to go to NZ. We couldn't afford it. But for the first
time ever I was ashamed to even be seen as supporting New Labour by living
in the same country..

:-(

Mary