Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

Also the piles of planks laid our from the far end of the building to
the top of the heap right next to the crane was odd too. How should it
have fallen if it was a buckling, overloaded platform?

I would imagine it falling from the middle of the stress, out into the
street away from the wall. And the chances of such a clearly defined
shear line?

It looks like someone dropped a pallet full of something in the range
of 1 or 2 tons from too great an height at too great a speed onto the
top. I'm glad it wasn't me.

I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?

Why have they always got to be dancers and hairdressers?

Weatherlawyer wrote:
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?

Why have they always got to be dancers and hairdressers?

I also was surprised they didnt have the usual line up of speculation.

Even worse was the reporting of the venus/earth weather link, in which
the reporter suggested the earth would end up like Venus at 477C due to
the greenhouse effect, despite the fact that this is obvious bunk,
nothing to do with the greenhouse effect, and clearly not what the
professor was saying. But BBC and science... no


NT

wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?

Why have they always got to be dancers and hairdressers?

I also was surprised they didnt have the usual line up of speculation.

Even worse was the reporting of the venus/earth weather link, in which
the reporter suggested the earth would end up like Venus at 477C due to
the greenhouse effect, despite the fact that this is obvious bunk,
nothing to do with the greenhouse effect, and clearly not what the
professor was saying. But BBC and science... no

Actually it's not that speculative. There is Carbon Dioxide in the
atmosphere of Venus thus it stands to reason if a trace of it can be
found in Earth's the world will melt in about that time. If not sooner.

Bloody soundbiters!

Weatherlawyer wrote:
I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?

I wondered if it was something to do with the recent reports that safety
training on sites has become difficult if not impossible due to the language
barriers. The building industry employs huge numbers of eastern europeans
lately. A good line of investigation for a decent journalist - if we had
any.


Why have they always got to be dancers and hairdressers?

Because the media is run by dancers and hairdressers. Give them time
however and they will dig up an 'expert'.


--
Dave
The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk
01634 717930
07850 597257

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 07:23:12 GMT, "The Medway Handyman"
wrote:

|Weatherlawyer wrote:
| I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
| qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
| of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
| shouldn't be that hard to find surely?
|
|I wondered if it was something to do with the recent reports that safety
|training on sites has become difficult if not impossible due to the language
|barriers. The building industry employs huge numbers of eastern europeans
|lately. A good line of investigation for a decent journalist - if we had
|any.

I have heard the Beeb mention it several times, but then it is language,
not science.
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk Google Groups is IME the *worst*
method of accessing usenet. GG subscribers would be well advised get a
newsreader, say Agent, and a newsserver, say news.individual.net. These
will allow them: to see only *new* posts, a killfile, and other goodies.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

Also the piles of planks laid our from the far end of the building to
the top of the heap right next to the crane was odd too. How should it
have fallen if it was a buckling, overloaded platform?

I would imagine it falling from the middle of the stress, out into the
street away from the wall. And the chances of such a clearly defined
shear line?

It looks like someone dropped a pallet full of something in the range
of 1 or 2 tons from too great an height at too great a speed onto the
top. I'm glad it wasn't me.

I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?

Why have they always got to be dancers and hairdressers?

Reporting so far seems to suggest that 2 floors collapsing triggered
the scaffold collapse, although I cannot make this out from the
pictures so far.

Phil.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?

I wondered if it was something to do with the recent reports that safety
training on sites has become difficult if not impossible due to the language
barriers.

I know, Who talks Irish for gods sake?

Or Estuary English?


The building industry employs huge numbers of eastern europeans
lately. A good line of investigation for a decent journalist - if we had
any.


Sadly the scaffolding was erected by Irishmen.

Phil wrote:

Reporting so far seems to suggest that 2 floors collapsing triggered
the scaffold collapse, although I cannot make this out from the
pictures so far.

Two floors of the building's interiors? Bearing in mind the state of
the interiors might include unfinished uper structures?

Hardly.

It's going to be an expensive dish-out all around. I pity the poor
buggers involved through no fault of their own.

"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

It looks like someone dropped a pallet full of something in the range
of 1 or 2 tons from too great an height at too great a speed onto the
top. I'm glad it wasn't me.

Living in Milton Keynes within 3km of the site, and being outside around the
reported time of the collapse, I was amazed to hear that high winds were
being suggested as the cause. Unless there was some sort of mini-tornado
which hasn't been suggested. We've certainly had high winds recently, but
nothing exceptional, at ground level anyway, yesterday.

I have photographs of the scaffolding taken a few weeks ago, and then, it
went all round the building.

The grid road system with its multiple redundancy will allow most of Central
MK to continue functioning as normal, but it's bad news for companies close
to the site, as the police have set up a 200m wide exclusion/safety zone.
--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?

I wondered if it was something to do with the recent reports that safety
training on sites has become difficult if not impossible due to the
language
barriers.

I know, Who talks Irish for gods sake?

Or Estuary English?


The building industry employs huge numbers of eastern europeans
lately. A good line of investigation for a decent journalist - if we
had
any.


Sadly the scaffolding was erected by Irishmen.

========================
I think the main contractors (Irish) sub contracted the scaffolding to
another company.

Cic.

Cicero wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
I'm suprised that the news media don't have someone with more
qualifications than the average reporter to go out on accident scenes
of any sort. Just having someone with a fundamental grasp of physics
shouldn't be that hard to find surely?
I wondered if it was something to do with the recent reports that safety
training on sites has become difficult if not impossible due to the
language
barriers.
I know, Who talks Irish for gods sake?

Or Estuary English?


The building industry employs huge numbers of eastern europeans
lately. A good line of investigation for a decent journalist - if we
had
any.

Sadly the scaffolding was erected by Irishmen.

========================
I think the main contractors (Irish) sub contracted the scaffolding to
another company.


No..the way I heard it on the beeb was that the main contractors
subcontracted to an Irish scaffolding company.



Cic.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

It might.
Floor 5 fails.
Floors 14-6 fall down, crushing 1-4

On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:14:37 +0100, "Malcolm Stewart"
wrote:

The grid road system with its multiple redundancy will allow most of Central
MK to continue functioning as normal, but it's bad news for companies close
to the site, as the police have set up a 200m wide exclusion/safety zone.

For some people a 200 mile exclusion zone around Milton Keynes might
be seen as a good thing

The last time I had the misfortune to visit there appeared to be acres
of housing estates with deserted roads and the only "attraction" was a
huge shopping centre and right next to it a teepee like cinema was
just being built. I guess it would have been in the late 80's. I
found it totally soulless and a very intimidating place to be and even
though I failed to see a concrete cow I don't harbour any intense
desire to return (especially when the risk of flood from dodgy
plumbing is so high)



--

Malcolm Stewart wrote:
"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

snip///

Living in Milton Keynes within 3km of the site, and being outside around the
reported time of the collapse, I was amazed to hear that high winds were
being suggested as the cause. Unless there was some sort of mini-tornado
which hasn't been suggested. We've certainly had high winds recently, but
nothing exceptional, at ground level anyway, yesterday.


Could be, but more likely it was due to us having had the coldest
winter for decades Patricia Hewitt, Health Sec, BBC 24 news today, 9am
12/4/06, explaining reasons for NHS losses & job cuts. Do I live on
the same planet as that woman? Certainly not the same island.

"Matt" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:14:37 +0100, "Malcolm Stewart"
wrote:

The grid road system with its multiple redundancy will allow most of
Central
MK to continue functioning as normal, but it's bad news for companies
close
to the site, as the police have set up a 200m wide exclusion/safety zone.

For some people a 200 mile exclusion zone around Milton Keynes might
be seen as a good thing

The last time I had the misfortune to visit there appeared to be acres
of housing estates with deserted roads and the only "attraction" was a
huge shopping centre and right next to it a teepee like cinema was
just being built. I guess it would have been in the late 80's. I
found it totally soulless and a very intimidating place to be and even
though I failed to see a concrete cow I don't harbour any intense
desire to return (especially when the risk of flood from dodgy
plumbing is so high)

Well, things have changed a bit since your visit, and trying to build higher
is what's going on just now, complete with the attendant risks. (Used to be
limited to around high tree level.)
The teepee style cinema is part of the "Easy Cinema" group, and we now have
another multiplex cinema, real snow slope and free-fall "Airkix" if you're
into that sort of thing. I too haven't been close to the repainted, yet
again, concrete cows recently, and the roads are no longer deserted.
There's even talk of gridlock, but that's from people trying to sell
newspapers...

--
M Stewart
Milton Keynes, UK
http://www.megalith.freeserve.co.uk/oddimage.htm

Either way it will be interesting to see it the scaffold has been designed to TG20 (BS EN12811) or the old BS 5973.

I wonder if it was tied to the building at the required centres or were the Irish using those 'invisible' ties!

jim_in_sussex wrote:

Could be, but more likely it was due to us having had the coldest
winter for decades Patricia Hewitt, Health Sec, BBC 24 news today, 9am
12/4/06, explaining reasons for NHS losses & job cuts. Do I live on
the same planet as that woman? Certainly not the same island.

And seldom in the same country as her leader, our beloved president.

Fancy spending Arfur Miion on a olliday wiv ver ressover werkurs an
avin to come ome arfway froo, jest ter deal wiv a bunch ov sickoes.

"jim_in_sussex" typed



Malcolm Stewart wrote:
"Weatherlawyer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

snip///

Living in Milton Keynes within 3km of the site, and being outside
around the
reported time of the collapse, I was amazed to hear that high winds were
being suggested as the cause. Unless there was some sort of mini-tornado
which hasn't been suggested. We've certainly had high winds recently, but
nothing exceptional, at ground level anyway, yesterday.


Could be, but more likely it was due to us having had the coldest
winter for decades Patricia Hewitt, Health Sec, BBC 24 news today, 9am
12/4/06, explaining reasons for NHS losses & job cuts. Do I live on
the same planet as that woman? Certainly not the same island.

She obviously inhabits a different world from mine.

Here on the London Fringes, we've had little frost, snow or rain. It's
not been windy enough to blow any tiles off my roof (which I have had on
previous years).

I have had a high gas bill though.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Ian Stirling wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

It might.
Floor 5 fails.
Floors 14-6 fall down, crushing 1-4

It isn't masonry it is a web of steel.

Brickwork relies on its own weight to hold each unit in place. Once a
line of bricks is moved the 3 or 4 inches over the upright joints, the
structure collapses. If that shold happen then the floor will go one at
a time and yes the shear would also be straight down.

In a scaffold, if the crosstubes (the tie-bars) are all so loose the
long tube can move, they will move several feet. And they will move it
independently of the other tubes. But the whole system is like a
spider's web.

It would require an incredible force to do such a thing to a scaffold.
In fact, I doubt that dropping a 2 ton pallet on it would do it. If you
have ever worked on one you'd realise how strong the structure is.

Thinking about it now, most firms of the size that could take on such a
site as the one where the collapse are pretty hot with safety issues.
They have lads on the books who are paid to check on any changes to the
structure that some trades might need to make.

They can be quite a PITA. It makes me realise how handy they are in the
long run though.

Weatherlawyer wrote:
Ian Stirling wrote:
Weatherlawyer wrote:
Interesting damage zone in the scaffold in that it was a straight shear
all the way down from top to bottom. Faulty erection wouldn't have done
that.

It might.
Floor 5 fails.
Floors 14-6 fall down, crushing 1-4

It isn't masonry it is a web of steel.

Brickwork relies on its own weight to hold each unit in place. Once a
line of bricks is moved the 3 or 4 inches over the upright joints, the
structure collapses. If that shold happen then the floor will go one at
a time and yes the shear would also be straight down.

In a scaffold, if the crosstubes (the tie-bars) are all so loose the
long tube can move, they will move several feet. And they will move it
independently of the other tubes. But the whole system is like a
spider's web.

It would require an incredible force to do such a thing to a scaffold.
In fact, I doubt that dropping a 2 ton pallet on it would do it. If you
have ever worked on one you'd realise how strong the structure is.

Thinking about it now, most firms of the size that could take on such a
site as the one where the collapse are pretty hot with safety issues.
They have lads on the books who are paid to check on any changes to the
structure that some trades might need to make.

They can be quite a PITA. It makes me realise how handy they are in the
long run though.

There was a perfect example of the differences in structural types on
the tv this morning. In Bromley, an house had crumbled into a hole
leaving most of the front upstairs and the roof intact. The bits that
had held together well were the carpentry and joinery -which of course
holds itself as a unit.

Don't bother looking at the BBC site for a picture, they are down to
their crappy worst there. (Until you see what is available via free
enterprise. FFS!)