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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Cable Identification
I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric
shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon |
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#2
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Cable Identification
hello!
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#3
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Cable Identification
hello!
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#4
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Cable Identification
"Adebisi" wrote in message
... I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon I take it you are talking about twin & earth? Well I imagine there is a standard somewhere with dimensions and tolerances. However - for what it's worth - I have some 6mm T&E that is 13.6 mm across the flat dimension - if you understand what I mean. Disclaimer follows.... :-) I have no idea if this means you also have 6mm T&E. Roy |
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#5
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Cable Identification
Adebisi wrote:
I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your shower should be the same as cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width, what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, you need 45amp. |
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#6
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Cable Identification
"Phil L" wrote in message
. uk... Adebisi wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your shower should be the same as cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width, what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, you need 45amp. Unless he means electric as in power shower (no heating involved), in which case 15 amp ought to be plenty? |
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#7
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Cable Identification
Nick Dobb wrote:
"Phil L" wrote in message . uk... Adebisi wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your shower should be the same as cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width, what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, you need 45amp. Unless he means electric as in power shower (no heating involved), in which case 15 amp ought to be plenty? I think he'd have said 'power shower' rather than the bog standard, 'electric shower' |
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#8
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Cable Identification
In message , Phil L
writes Adebisi wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your shower should be the same as cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width, what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, you need 45amp. Well what he *needs* depends on the current rating of the shower, which can vary. However, as Roy said in another post, if the cable is 13mm across the widest dimension then it does sound like 6mm ^2 (I've just measured some and my measurement concurs.) Current rating of 6mm is IIRC 40A? depending on the length of run and draw of the shower this may well be sufficient. -- Chris French |
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#9
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Cable Identification
"RzB" wrote in message
... "Adebisi" wrote in message ... I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon I take it you are talking about twin & earth? Well I imagine there is a standard somewhere with dimensions and tolerances. However - for what it's worth - I have some 6mm T&E that is 13.6 mm across the flat dimension - if you understand what I mean. Disclaimer follows.... :-) I have no idea if this means you also have 6mm T&E. Roy Thanks. Yes it's T&E I was wondering if it was 6mm or 10mm. I bet 10mm would be a lot wider? |
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#10
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Cable Identification
Phil L wrote:
I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your No it does not. It tells you the cable is probbably 6mm^2 T&E and that is all. Whether it is correct or not will largely depend on the rating of the shower and the details of the cable run. shower should be the same as cooker cable, There is no such thing a "cooker cable" - again the cable for a cooker will need to be sized based on the actual appliance in question. IE about 25mm across the width, Huh? Are you just making up numbers? 25mm across any axis is wider than all the standard T&E cables. what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, Since when were sockets typically wired in 6mm^2. Where do you get the 15A from - I can't think of any standard T&E cable size that has that rating (1.0mm^2 as used on lighting circuits would be closest at 16A best case). Normal socket circuits are typically wired in 2.5mm^2 T&E, with a rating of upto 27A best case) you need 45amp. Again you are plucking numbers from the air. Cable CSAs Vs Physical Dimensions (table pinched from one of Andy Wade's postings): CSA (CPC) Strands Overall mm^2 No./dia. mm approx. --------- ------- ---------- 1.0 (1.0) 1/1.13 4.5 x 8.2 1.5 (1.0) 1/1.38 4.7 x 8.2 2.5 (1.5) 1/1.78* 5.3 x 9.9 4.0 (1.5) 7/0.85 6.1 x 11.4 6.0 (2.5) 7/1.04 6.8 x 13.1 10 (4.0) 7/1.35 8.4 x 16.8 16 (6.0) 7/1.71 9.6 x 19.5 * or 7/0.67 This does suggest the OPs cable is 6mm^2 and that will handle 47A when clipped direct to a surface. It also assumes there are no other derrating factors that need to be taken into account. 10mm^s would usually be the cable of choice for the modern more powerful showers. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#11
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Cable Identification
John Rumm wrote:
Phil L wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your No it does not. It tells you the cable is probbably 6mm^2 T&E and that is all. Whether it is correct or not will largely depend on the rating of the shower and the details of the cable run. I think we can assume that it's in his bathroom? We can also assume that his bathroom is upstairs? And his meter is under the stairs? shower should be the same as cooker cable, There is no such thing a "cooker cable" - again the cable for a cooker will need to be sized based on the actual appliance in question. Most modern showers are above 8KW, ergo it needs 10mm cable, he's got 6. IE about 25mm across the width, Huh? Are you just making up numbers? 25mm across any axis is wider than all the standard T&E cables. what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, Since when were sockets typically wired in 6mm^2. Where do you get the 15A from - I can't think of any standard T&E cable size that has that rating (1.0mm^2 as used on lighting circuits would be closest at 16A best case). Normal socket circuits are typically wired in 2.5mm^2 T&E, with a rating of upto 27A best case) you need 45amp. Again you are plucking numbers from the air. Cable CSAs Vs Physical Dimensions (table pinched from one of Andy Wade's postings): CSA (CPC) Strands Overall mm^2 No./dia. mm approx. --------- ------- ---------- 1.0 (1.0) 1/1.13 4.5 x 8.2 1.5 (1.0) 1/1.38 4.7 x 8.2 2.5 (1.5) 1/1.78* 5.3 x 9.9 4.0 (1.5) 7/0.85 6.1 x 11.4 6.0 (2.5) 7/1.04 6.8 x 13.1 10 (4.0) 7/1.35 8.4 x 16.8 16 (6.0) 7/1.71 9.6 x 19.5 * or 7/0.67 This does suggest the OPs cable is 6mm^2 and that will handle 47A when clipped direct to a surface. It also assumes there are no other derrating factors that need to be taken into account. 10mm^s would usually be the cable of choice for the modern more powerful showers. So you agree with me then that the cable he's got isn't big enough? - pretty much what I said but with more willy-waving. |
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#12
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Cable Identification
Phil L wrote:
So you agree with me then that the cable he's got isn't big enough? - pretty much what I said but with more willy-waving. No I don't agree with you. In fact I expect there is a very good chance that the OPs cable is appropriate for his shower. However unless he posts more information we won't know for sure. I was highligting that the information/advice you were giving was at best flawed, and the conclusion to which you had jumped was not a logical progression based on the information given. Sorry if you think this is "willy waving", but where matters of electrcity, water, and people are involved in close proximity, I feel it is important to get these things right and not make unsupported assertions, or seemingly invent technical data on the fly. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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#13
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Cable Identification
In article
Phil L wrote: John Rumm wrote: Phil L wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your No it does not. It tells you the cable is probbably 6mm^2 T&E and that is all. Whether it is correct or not will largely depend on the rating of the shower and the details of the cable run. I think we can assume that it's in his bathroom? We can also assume that his bathroom is upstairs? And his meter is under the stairs? Why? The CU could be on the wall in the hall or kitchen, and the shower just the other side of the wall. |
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#14
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Cable Identification
Christian McArdle wrote:
Try again. In many cases 6mm is more than adequete. 10.5kW @ 230V on a 45A MCB 6mm clipped direct is good for 28 metres on voltage drop and cable rating. I haven't checked the earth loop impedence, but it is usually OK. Hmm, be very very careful there. It may well be OK with a type B MCB and a PME supply, but if the protective device is a 45A BS 1361 fuse and the bathroom wiring is pre the bathroom amendment (so 0.4 second disconnection needed) then you'd need Zs 0.6 ohm. If the service is TN-S (Ze max. = 0.8 ohm) then you're stuffed unless there's an RCD fitted. You also need to check adiabatic compliance of the CPC - with a 2.5 mm^2 CPC protected by a 45 A device, no assumptions should be made... -- Andy |
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#15
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Cable Identification
Rob Morley wrote:
In article Phil L wrote: John Rumm wrote: Phil L wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your No it does not. It tells you the cable is probbably 6mm^2 T&E and that is all. Whether it is correct or not will largely depend on the rating of the shower and the details of the cable run. I think we can assume that it's in his bathroom? We can also assume that his bathroom is upstairs? And his meter is under the stairs? Why? The CU could be on the wall in the hall or kitchen, and the shower just the other side of the wall. Hell his meter could be in the bathroom, but I think we all know that it isn't...in most houses the meter is usually downstairs and the bathroom upstairs, stop being pedantic, you are guesing the same as everyone else, the OP hasn't said where it is so it's safe to assume it's in the 'normal' range. |
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#16
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Cable Identification
In article
Phil L wrote: Rob Morley wrote: In article Phil L wrote: John Rumm wrote: Phil L wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your No it does not. It tells you the cable is probbably 6mm^2 T&E and that is all. Whether it is correct or not will largely depend on the rating of the shower and the details of the cable run. I think we can assume that it's in his bathroom? We can also assume that his bathroom is upstairs? And his meter is under the stairs? Why? The CU could be on the wall in the hall or kitchen, and the shower just the other side of the wall. Hell his meter could be in the bathroom, Why do you keep banging on about the meter? It's the CU that matters, as that's where the cable will be connected. but I think we all know that it isn't... I know no such thing. Nor does anyone else, based on the information given. If you think you know then you are deluded. in most houses the meter is usually downstairs and the bathroom upstairs, stop being pedantic, I'm not being pedantic, I'm pointing out your faulty reasoning. What makes you think we're talking about an upstairs bathroom? Plenty of houses have downstairs showers. you are guesing the same as everyone else, I'm not guessing anything - you're the one who said the cable is undersized without knowing all the significant facts. the OP hasn't said where it is so it's safe to assume it's in the 'normal' range. He didn't state whether it's a house or a flat. If it's a flat then my scenario is more likely to be correct than yours is. He didn't even state the rating of the shower ... |
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#17
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Cable Identification
Hmm, be very very careful there. It may well be OK with a type B MCB
and a PME supply, but if the protective device is a 45A BS 1361 fuse and the bathroom wiring is pre the bathroom amendment (so 0.4 second disconnection needed) then you'd need Zs 0.6 ohm. If the service is TN-S (Ze max. = 0.8 ohm) then you're stuffed unless there's an RCD fitted. Indeed. By saying I hadn't checked it, I meant that it needed to be checked, not that you shouldn't bother. However, I would always RCD an electric shower and it would always be on a Type B MCB. Not that I would install something that required an RCD to meet earth loop impedence requirements, though. Even on a TT system, I would ensure that it would be compliant when the earthing is upgraded. Christian. |
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#18
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Cable Identification
Phil L wrote: Adebisi wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your shower should be the same as cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width, what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, you need 45amp. I would dearly like a link to some of this domestic mains cable that is 25mm across. Please provide one, OR STFU! MBQ |
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#19
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Cable Identification
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#20
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Cable Identification
Rob Morley wrote:
Hell his meter could be in the bathroom, Why do you keep banging on about the meter? It's the CU that matters, as that's where the cable will be connected. And the meter is always a mile away from the CU? - pedant not over yet? but I think we all know that it isn't... I know no such thing. Nor does anyone else, based on the information given. If you think you know then you are deluded. So you think his CU is in the bathroom? - curiouser and curiouser... in most houses the meter is usually downstairs and the bathroom upstairs, stop being pedantic, I'm not being pedantic, I'm pointing out your faulty reasoning. What makes you think we're talking about an upstairs bathroom? Plenty of houses have downstairs showers. What makes you think we are talking about a downstairs shower?, *most* houses have showers upstairs. you are guesing the same as everyone else, I'm not guessing anything - you're the one who said the cable is undersized without knowing all the significant facts. I know that 6mm cable isn't suitable for modern (9.5KW and above) showers, and yes, we are all guessing, I was edging on the side of caution while you are clutching straws that it /might/ be /ok/ if this and if that. the OP hasn't said where it is so it's safe to assume it's in the 'normal' range. He didn't state whether it's a house or a flat. If it's a flat then my scenario is more likely to be correct than yours is. He didn't even state the rating of the shower ... Exactly, and I'll wager that more poeople live in houses than flats in the UK, and that most people in those houses have a shower upstairs, of course we could all be wrong and he lives in a tent. |
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#21
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Cable Identification
Phil L wrote: wrote: Phil L wrote: Adebisi wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your shower should be the same as cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width, what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, you need 45amp. I would dearly like a link to some of this domestic mains cable that is 25mm across. Please provide one, OR STFU! MBQ Who the **** are you meant to be? I am who I am. Have you *ever* worked with electrical cable? Yes. His cable is 6mm, he needs 10mm, unless he likes his cables glowing every time he has a shower. You still haven't shown that you have any idea what you are talking about. Show us the "cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width" and you may be able to redeem yourself. MBQ |
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#23
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Cable Identification
Phil L wrote: wrote: Phil L wrote: wrote: Phil L wrote: Adebisi wrote: I am trying to find out what cable is currently set up for my electric shower. It measures 13mm in width would that tell me anything? TIA Simon Yes, it tells you that the cable isn't the right size, the cable for your shower should be the same as cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width, what you have is cable used for normal sockets etc, about 15amp, you need 45amp. I would dearly like a link to some of this domestic mains cable that is 25mm across. Please provide one, OR STFU! MBQ Who the **** are you meant to be? I am who I am. Have you *ever* worked with electrical cable? Yes. His cable is 6mm, he needs 10mm, unless he likes his cables glowing every time he has a shower. You still haven't shown that you have any idea what you are talking about. Show us the "cooker cable, IE about 25mm across the width" and you may be able to redeem yourself. I don't need to redeem myself to you who has obviously never worked on a big job before, I said 'cooker cable' to fit in with the man from b&q, IE the weekend warrior who has a shed full of tools and doesn't know wht any of them do. You said cable that was 25mm across which was a load of ********. Show me where such cable is used for showers or cookers in a normal domestic setting and you'll have the pleasure of teaching me something. MBQ |
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#24
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Cable Identification
In article
Phil L wrote: Rob Morley wrote: Hell his meter could be in the bathroom, Why do you keep banging on about the meter? It's the CU that matters, as that's where the cable will be connected. And the meter is always a mile away from the CU? I didn't say anything is always - you're the one who insists on making generalisations. The bathroom could be in an extension that has its own CU that's nowhere near the meter. - pedant not over yet? You still don't seem to grasp the difference between pedantry and someone pointing out apparently gaping flaws in your ability to reason. but I think we all know that it isn't... I know no such thing. Nor does anyone else, based on the information given. If you think you know then you are deluded. So you think his CU is in the bathroom? - curiouser and curiouser... I didn't say that it is, but I didn't assume that it isn't either. in most houses the meter is usually downstairs and the bathroom upstairs, stop being pedantic, I'm not being pedantic, I'm pointing out your faulty reasoning. What makes you think we're talking about an upstairs bathroom? Plenty of houses have downstairs showers. What makes you think we are talking about a downstairs shower?, *most* houses have showers upstairs. The OP doesn't live in most houses, he lives in his house. All we know is that he says he has an electric shower of some sort with a cable that /may/ be underrated. you are guesing the same as everyone else, I'm not guessing anything - you're the one who said the cable is undersized without knowing all the significant facts. I know that 6mm cable isn't suitable for modern (9.5KW and above) showers, and yes, we are all guessing, I was edging on the side of caution while you are clutching straws that it /might/ be /ok/ if this and if that. I'm still not guessing anything (except possibly that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer - there's some evidence to support that). the OP hasn't said where it is so it's safe to assume it's in the 'normal' range. He didn't state whether it's a house or a flat. If it's a flat then my scenario is more likely to be correct than yours is. He didn't even state the rating of the shower ... Exactly, and I'll wager that more poeople live in houses than flats in the UK, and that most people in those houses have a shower upstairs, of course we could all be wrong and he lives in a tent. How can I be wrong when I haven't made any claims about the OPs specific situation? You keep making generalisations while failing to answer the OPs question, and repeatedly fail to acknowledge that without more information there cannot be an authoritative answer, preferring instead to guess and bluster. |
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#25
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Cable Identification
Rob Morley wrote:
In article Phil L wrote: Rob Morley wrote: Hell his meter could be in the bathroom, Why do you keep banging on about the meter? It's the CU that matters, as that's where the cable will be connected. And the meter is always a mile away from the CU? I didn't say anything is always - you're the one who insists on making generalisations. The bathroom could be in an extension that has its own CU that's nowhere near the meter. - pedant not over yet? You still don't seem to grasp the difference between pedantry and someone pointing out apparently gaping flaws in your ability to reason. but I think we all know that it isn't... I know no such thing. Nor does anyone else, based on the information given. If you think you know then you are deluded. So you think his CU is in the bathroom? - curiouser and curiouser... I didn't say that it is, but I didn't assume that it isn't either. in most houses the meter is usually downstairs and the bathroom upstairs, stop being pedantic, I'm not being pedantic, I'm pointing out your faulty reasoning. What makes you think we're talking about an upstairs bathroom? Plenty of houses have downstairs showers. What makes you think we are talking about a downstairs shower?, *most* houses have showers upstairs. The OP doesn't live in most houses, he lives in his house. All we know is that he says he has an electric shower of some sort with a cable that /may/ be underrated. you are guesing the same as everyone else, I'm not guessing anything - you're the one who said the cable is undersized without knowing all the significant facts. I know that 6mm cable isn't suitable for modern (9.5KW and above) showers, and yes, we are all guessing, I was edging on the side of caution while you are clutching straws that it /might/ be /ok/ if this and if that. I'm still not guessing anything (except possibly that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer - there's some evidence to support that). the OP hasn't said where it is so it's safe to assume it's in the 'normal' range. He didn't state whether it's a house or a flat. If it's a flat then my scenario is more likely to be correct than yours is. He didn't even state the rating of the shower ... Exactly, and I'll wager that more poeople live in houses than flats in the UK, and that most people in those houses have a shower upstairs, of course we could all be wrong and he lives in a tent. How can I be wrong when I haven't made any claims about the OPs specific situation? You keep making generalisations while failing to answer the OPs question, and repeatedly fail to acknowledge that without more information there cannot be an authoritative answer, preferring instead to guess and bluster. I 'guessed' that his shower cable wasn't big enough, so did a lot of other people. Considering a 10mm cable would be preferred to a 6mm cable if it's a modern shower (over 9.5kw), that was my best guess, you obviously didn't like it and he never came back to tell us any further details, so I'll stick with that, you're the one blustering and fussing thast it /may/ be 'adequate' but what if it's not? - neither of us know this and so it's better to err on the side of caution? |
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#26
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Cable Identification
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#27
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Cable Identification
Phil L wrote: wrote: You said cable that was 25mm across which was a load of ********. Show me where such cable is used for showers or cookers in a normal domestic setting and you'll have the pleasure of teaching me something. MBQ I doubt you have the capability to learn anything. Only because you have nothing to teach me. MBQ |
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#28
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Cable Identification
In article
Phil L wrote: snip I 'guessed' that his shower cable wasn't big enough, so did a lot of other people. There's no evidence of that in this thread - you're on your own. Considering a 10mm cable would be preferred to a 6mm cable if it's a modern shower (over 9.5kw), that was my best guess, you obviously didn't like it and he never came back to tell us any further details, so I'll stick with that, you're the one blustering and fussing thast it /may/ be 'adequate' but what if it's not? - neither of us know this and so it's better to err on the side of caution? That may be the case when specifying new work, but with an existing situation it is often better to take the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" approach. Especially as "fixing" the OPs situation might involve considerable expense and/or end up with it more dangerous than it is at the moment. |
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#29
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Cable Identification
Phil L wrote: Rob Morley wrote: In article Phil L wrote: Rob Morley wrote: Hell his meter could be in the bathroom, Why do you keep banging on about the meter? It's the CU that matters, as that's where the cable will be connected. And the meter is always a mile away from the CU? I didn't say anything is always - you're the one who insists on making generalisations. The bathroom could be in an extension that has its own CU that's nowhere near the meter. - pedant not over yet? You still don't seem to grasp the difference between pedantry and someone pointing out apparently gaping flaws in your ability to reason. but I think we all know that it isn't... I know no such thing. Nor does anyone else, based on the information given. If you think you know then you are deluded. So you think his CU is in the bathroom? - curiouser and curiouser... I didn't say that it is, but I didn't assume that it isn't either. in most houses the meter is usually downstairs and the bathroom upstairs, stop being pedantic, I'm not being pedantic, I'm pointing out your faulty reasoning. What makes you think we're talking about an upstairs bathroom? Plenty of houses have downstairs showers. What makes you think we are talking about a downstairs shower?, *most* houses have showers upstairs. The OP doesn't live in most houses, he lives in his house. All we know is that he says he has an electric shower of some sort with a cable that /may/ be underrated. you are guesing the same as everyone else, I'm not guessing anything - you're the one who said the cable is undersized without knowing all the significant facts. I know that 6mm cable isn't suitable for modern (9.5KW and above) showers, and yes, we are all guessing, I was edging on the side of caution while you are clutching straws that it /might/ be /ok/ if this and if that. I'm still not guessing anything (except possibly that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer - there's some evidence to support that). the OP hasn't said where it is so it's safe to assume it's in the 'normal' range. He didn't state whether it's a house or a flat. If it's a flat then my scenario is more likely to be correct than yours is. He didn't even state the rating of the shower ... Exactly, and I'll wager that more poeople live in houses than flats in the UK, and that most people in those houses have a shower upstairs, of course we could all be wrong and he lives in a tent. How can I be wrong when I haven't made any claims about the OPs specific situation? You keep making generalisations while failing to answer the OPs question, and repeatedly fail to acknowledge that without more information there cannot be an authoritative answer, preferring instead to guess and bluster. I 'guessed' that his shower cable wasn't big enough, so did a lot of other people. Err, who exactly? If you read the thread again you'll see that your in a minority of one. "a lot of other people" are in agreement that it may well be perfectly adequate. MBQ |
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