Hi
Would be grateful for your opinion on which option I should go for.

Buying old house ewith very old LPG heating boiler which needs replacing.

1) should I replace with condensing LPG and what is the average cost of
boiler or

2) as I am changing and moving boiler position would it be cheaper in long
run to replace with an oil fired system.

What is the average running costs of both systems?

Thanks for any advice.
Haydn

Would be grateful for your opinion on which option I should go for.

Oil.

Christian.

Christian McArdle wrote:
Would be grateful for your opinion on which option I should go for.

Oil.

I love oil as a fuel. The boiler was easy to install, and is easy to
service. The fuel is safe to handle, and cheaper than gas.


--
Grunff

Huj wrote:
Would be grateful for your opinion on which option I should go for.

Oil.


Buying old house ewith very old LPG heating boiler which needs replacing.

1) should I replace with condensing LPG and what is the average cost of
boiler or

2) as I am changing and moving boiler position would it be cheaper in long
run to replace with an oil fired system.

Oil is cheaper. You'll have to have a tank (and associated)
installed, though.


What is the average running costs of both systems?

https://www.energyefficiency.powerge...mpareCosts.htm

What is the average running costs of both systems?

https://www.energyefficiency.powerge...mpareCosts.htm

According to that, Oil is only £1 more per year then mains gas - this was in
2003

With the recent price hike in gas, would oil be a better choice over all?

Are the installation and maintenance of oil boilers more then gas?
How about the cost of installing a tank and any maintenance required?
Costs of delivery for the oil?

Sparks...

Christian McArdle wrote:

Electric cooking is a waste of time.

I used to think so too, then I bought an induction hob. I'd never use
gas again.


--
Grunff

"Huj" wrote in message
...
Hi
Would be grateful for your opinion on which option I should go for.

Buying old house ewith very old LPG heating boiler which needs replacing.

1) should I replace with condensing LPG and what is the average cost of
boiler or

2) as I am changing and moving boiler position would it be cheaper in long
run to replace with an oil fired system.

What is the average running costs of both systems?

Haydn,

LPG is more expensive than oil, but all maybe not lost. Zenex, has
introduced a "top box" that fits on a condensing boiler's flue. Out of the
boiler into the box and out again to outside. The return pipe pass through
the top-box and out to the boilers return. This appears a big "leap" in
making condensers more efficient.

They announced it pre-Xmas, but now it is on sale.
http://www.zenexenergy.com/downloads/HVR10-REPRINT.pdf
http://www.zenexenergy.com/

Buy he
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/s...Gas_Saver.html

It extracts even more latent heat from the flue of a condensing boiler.
They claim, with some independent validation, that a "condensing" boiler can
save 30% of its heating bills. There are no moving parts.

They claim that a combi can deliver 50% more water flow for the same input -
so a 12 litres per min job will be 18 litres, a big hype that fills a bath
pretty fast instead of a leisurely fill.

They are developing a 15kW combi that delivers 12 litres/min - a little
better than the average combi around. 12 litres is normally only achieved
by a 28kW boiler. So, at 15Kw it is not oversized for the CH in flats, and
the case size can be kept down.

They plan a box for a non-condensing boilers too, that will bring
non-condenser into condensing territory.

They claim the price will fall from £595 as production gears up. If it get
to half, and it does what they say, then this can save a lot of fuel, the
bigger the house the more fuel saved.

The versions may be suitable for LPG boilers - check it out. This top-box
may well make an LPG boiler equal, or better, than an oil boiler to run and
with £600 on top probably still lower capital costs of installation than oil
too. Worth assessing.

Electric cooking is a waste of time.

I used to think so too, then I bought an induction hob. I'd never use
gas again.

Yes, I've heard good things about induction hobs, although it wouldn't
necessarily suit my style of cooking.

Christian.

Are the installation and maintenance of oil boilers more then gas?
How about the cost of installing a tank and any maintenance required?

Yes, capital costs are higher. Mainly due to the tank, although the boilers
can be a bit more pricey, too.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.. .
Are the installation and maintenance of oil boilers more then gas?
How about the cost of installing a tank and any maintenance required?

Yes, capital costs are higher. Mainly due to the tank, although the
boilers
can be a bit more pricey, too.

.....and large too. Although they do have outside models, and the combi
versions tend to have a small thermal store inside (sometime quite larges
stores too) as the burners are slow in responding. Hence the flowrate of
oil combi boilers can be quite pleasing. So, one of these installed outside
can eliminate tanks and cylinders, and have "no" major heating and water
appliances in the house.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
.. .
Electric cooking is a waste of time.

I used to think so too, then I bought an induction hob. I'd never use
gas again.

Yes, I've heard good things about induction hobs, although it wouldn't
necessarily suit my style of cooking.

Christian.

We have an induction hob too - and as Christian also said, haven't looked
back!
So much easier to keep clean (main point)
Just as controllable (Probably more so - there are 18 steps on the digital
controller.
It has timers, so you can set something cooking, and tell it to turn it's
self off.
If you remove a pan it goes off immediately (Well, as the pan is the
element, it would!)
If you leave the pan off for long enough, it turns its self off completely.

We do have a single large gas ring for the wok though!.

Sparks...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

It extracts even more latent heat from the flue of a condensing boiler.
They claim, with some independent validation, that a "condensing" boiler
can save 30% of its heating bills. There are no moving parts.

They claim that a combi can deliver 50% more water flow for the same
input - so a 12 litres per min job will be 18 litres, a big hype that
fills a bath pretty fast instead of a leisurely fill.

As a condensing boiler is supposed to be 90+% efficient how can they extract
another 30% from the waste?
Maybe they are lying, maybe the boiler manufacturers are lying, but they
can't both be true.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
. uk...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

It extracts even more latent heat from the flue of a condensing boiler.
They claim, with some independent validation, that a "condensing" boiler
can save 30% of its heating bills. There are no moving parts.

They claim that a combi can deliver 50% more water flow for the same
input - so a 12 litres per min job will be 18 litres, a big hype that
fills a bath pretty fast instead of a leisurely fill.

As a condensing boiler is supposed to be 90+% efficient how can they
extract another 30% from the waste?

There is:
Sensible heat (from the flames)
Latent heat(from the flues gasses).

30% extra from the latent heat? The article does say 30% more efficient.
The editor of HVR magazien says in his leader:

"the product independently tested by GasTec and it offers DHW improvements
of more than 30% when compared with ordinary SEEDBUK A-rated boilers.
Forget all this energy rating stuff, anyone who offers me a saving of 30% of
my heating bill is OK in my book, especially as British Gas has just put up
its prices again." "I believe that this is, for now, the closest to a
quantum leap".

BTW, the condensing range currently goes up to 109%. The 100% range only
takes in account senible heat.

Maybe they are lying, maybe the boiler manufacturers are lying, but they
can't both be true.

Viessmann collaborated with them on a job in Plymouth. A company like them
does not chase lost causes or pseudo engineering.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

Viessmann collaborated with them on a job in Plymouth. A company like them
does not chase lost causes or pseudo engineering.


No but they claim to be able to alter the rules of physics.
Maybe they will be doing cold fusion or zero point energy soon?


If you do actually condense the water out of the flu in the boiler then
there just isn't 30% of the energy left in the flu gas, it isn't hot enough.
So either condensing boilers don't work or the secondary heat exchanger
doesn't get anywhere near 30%, its simple really.

Its probably a made up figure..

say..

in the middle of winter you have the heating on 24hrs a day then you get
enough heat out of the system to save you 30% of the little bit used for the
DHW and not 30% of the total.

You probably save a lot more if you have a heat exchanger on you air
ventilation.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
...

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

Viessmann collaborated with them on a job in Plymouth. A company like
them does not chase lost causes or pseudo engineering.

No but they claim to be able to alter the rules of physics. Maybe they
will be doing cold fusion or zero point energy soon?

I hope so.

If you do actually condense the water out of the flu in the boiler then
there just isn't 30% of the energy left in the flu gas, it isn't hot
enough.
So either condensing boilers don't work or the secondary heat exchanger
doesn't get anywhere near 30%, its simple really.

Its probably a made up figure..

They claim independent confirmation by GasTec in Holland.

say..

in the middle of winter you have the heating on 24hrs a day then you get
enough heat out of the system to save you 30% of the little bit used for
the DHW and not 30% of the total.

The 30% is 30% of the total. The flow and return pipes run through it.

You probably save a lot more if you have a heat exchanger on you air
ventilation.

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:12:33 -0000 Doctor Drivel wrote :
The 30% is 30% of the total. The flow and return pipes run through
it.

But they are talking about cooling the flue gases down to 50C. So
what temperature are they expecting the return to be? If the return
temp is anything like this it won't cool the flue gases at all.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.12 released 8 Dec 2005]

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:12:33 -0000 Doctor Drivel wrote :
The 30% is 30% of the total. The flow and return pipes run through
it.

But they are talking about cooling the flue gases down to 50C. So
what temperature are they expecting the return to be? If the return
temp is anything like this it won't cool the flue gases at all.

On 60-40C temp differential across the rads you would. Also having a load
compensation control system that drops the return temp, or weather
compensation, or both will certainly improve matters, as the return will be
below 50C a lot of the time.

"Tony Bryer" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 16:12:33 -0000 Doctor Drivel wrote :
The 30% is 30% of the total. The flow and return pipes run through
it.

But they are talking about cooling the flue gases down to 50C. So
what temperature are they expecting the return to be? If the return
temp is anything like this it won't cool the flue gases at all.


From HVR mag:

"but it has the most energy efficient technology as independently
tested by GasTec Certification Bv Holland to European test requirements of
PrEN13203 achieving a 38% winter mode improvement in domestic hot water and
an unspecified but significant gas saving calculated by Zenex to be in
excess of 30%, a combined benefit of more than 60% reductionin DHW
generating costs and it can be applied to today's products".

GasTec say 38% improvement in DHW alone. If the cold mains is run through
one, the flue gas temperature will drop substantially that is clear. Then
the main boiler takes over from there. The main heat exchanger in a
condensing boiler has to operate with a specified Delta T.

What this is doing is staging it. An analogy is: You have a thermal store
where the bottom may be 25C and when heated it must be heated all in one
pass of the stored water through the boiler. A boiler raises primary water
temperature by say 35C. If the return water of say a thermal store is say,
25C the boiler only has a flow of 60C, so the stored water has to circulate
at least twice through the boiler. You may want the store up to 80C, so you
are 30C short on the flow, Piping the flow on the boiler into the return of
another boiler (two in series) the water can be raised "in one pass through
the boilers to 80C". He is doing something similar to this, but with flue
gasses. His box can improve combi flowrate perform brilliantly. There
should be no need for 9 litres/min cloggers anymore.

You can make your own. As an e.g., look at the gfx shower drain heat
recovery unit. A boiler that uses plastic flue pipe can have one of these
in the flueway and the mains water piped down the spiral around flue pipe.
This would extract latent heat from the flue gas even further, "and it is
totally legal", as you are not interfering with the passing of the flue
gasses; no baffles or whatever. I don't think copper pipe would like long
exposure to flue gasses and acidic condensate though. So, a pipe within
pipe using two plastic pipes with the inner being the size specified for the
flue should work. If you ran 30 metres of plastic exhaust pipe (normal
drain pipe) outside, which you can, in freezing conditions the flue gas will
condensate even further and the condensate falls back to the boiler.
Instead of releasing the heat to the surrounding air, you are merely
harnessing it.

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Christian McArdle wrote:

Electric cooking is a waste of time.

I used to think so too, then I bought an induction hob. I'd never use
gas again.


Excellent aren't they!


Going back to the OP's question, if you want to install a non condensing oil
boiler you need to do it before April 2007.

I have just tried ringing the local building control people to enquire whether I
could install a non condensing oil boiler post April 07 because of difficulty
installing a condensate soakaway (I am not on mains drains). The told me to
speak to HETAS (Who I now realise deal with solid fuel boilers!)

The ODPM told me that it is the local authority who have the discretion to
disregard the regulations. (not the installer) The problem is that they don't
appear to know how to do this.


--

Michael Chare

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
...
"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Christian McArdle wrote:

Electric cooking is a waste of time.

I used to think so too, then I bought an induction hob. I'd never use
gas again.

Excellent aren't they!

Are they expensive to run? Gas a very cheap to cook on.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Are they expensive to run? Gas a very cheap to cook on.

While I haven't actually done any measurements, I think they are one of
the cheapest in terms of running costs. This is because they have near
100% energy transfer into the pot/pan.


--
Grunff

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

On 60-40C temp differential across the rads you would. Also having a load
compensation control system that drops the return temp, or weather
compensation, or both will certainly improve matters, as the return will be
below 50C a lot of the time.

On a related note - some of the combi boilers round here have a blown
concentric flue right up to the ridgeline. Depending on the weather you
can sometimes see the exhaust coming out of the flue and running down
the roof and into the gutter like mist.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Cooking with diesel is even worse!

Makes your chips taste funny too :-}

--
--- Please add "newsgroup" in the subject of any personal replies ---
--- My anti-spam address has "ngspamtrap" & @btinternet.com in it ---

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

On 60-40C temp differential across the rads you would. Also having a load
compensation control system that drops the return temp, or weather
compensation, or both will certainly improve matters, as the return will
be
below 50C a lot of the time.

On a related note - some of the combi boilers round here have a blown
concentric flue right up to the ridgeline. Depending on the weather you
can sometimes see the exhaust coming out of the flue and running down
the roof and into the gutter like mist.

Probably an anti-plume kit. These slot over the centre exhaust pipe of the
flue and then you run it to a convenient spot using plastic pipe. They look
the pits. All they need do is fit a blending valve on the boiler return to
keep the return temp at 60C, above the dew-point, and no pluming.

There is one condensing boiler available that does not require a condensate
drain as well. The Atmos Drain Free:
http://www.atmos.uk.com/product_grou...n=000200130005

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

There is one condensing boiler available that does not require a condensate
drain as well. The Atmos Drain Free:
http://www.atmos.uk.com/product_grou...n=000200130005

Hmmm, nice idea - there's a big problem round here with some condensing
boiler installations where the coyboys have just bunged the condensate
drain through the wall to let it dribble. When the weather's cold it
freezes up and the boiler safety cuts out - leaving you with no heating
when it's coldest!

Trouble is - it's more to go wrong, innit.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

There is one condensing boiler available that does not require a
condensate
drain as well. The Atmos Drain Free:
http://www.atmos.uk.com/product_grou...n=000200130005

Hmmm, nice idea - there's a big problem round here with some condensing
boiler installations where the coyboys have just bunged the condensate
drain through the wall to let it dribble. When the weather's cold it
freezes up and the boiler safety cuts out - leaving you with no heating
when it's coldest!

Trouble is - it's more to go wrong, innit.

The dribble or the pump?

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Trouble is - it's more to go wrong, innit.

The dribble or the pump?

The pump.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Trouble is - it's more to go wrong, innit.

The dribble or the pump?

The pump.

Better having it connected to a drain od course. But if one is difficult to
get to the Atmos is ideal.

Grunff wrote:

While I haven't actually done any measurements, I think they are one of
the cheapest in terms of running costs. This is because they have near
100% energy transfer into the pot/pan.

I would agree.
On ours you just flick the "C" button once the pan is to temp and it
holds it there cutting in and out at about 3 seconds on, 3 off.

Even at full tilt, you can put your finger on the cooker top right up to
the edge of the pan which also means everything that gets spilt will
wipe away in seconds.

Bloody marvelous invention, though there isn't an abundance of magnetic
pans on the market to chose from.

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower.

""Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬)"" wrote in message
...
Grunff wrote:

While I haven't actually done any measurements, I think they are one of
the cheapest in terms of running costs. This is because they have near
100% energy transfer into the pot/pan.

I would agree.
On ours you just flick the "C" button once the pan is to temp and it holds
it there cutting in and out at about 3 seconds on, 3 off.

Even at full tilt, you can put your finger on the cooker top right up to
the edge of the pan which also means everything that gets spilt will wipe
away in seconds.

Bloody marvelous invention, though there isn't an abundance of magnetic
pans on the market to chose from.

Destined to go the way of Betamax then.

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
reenews.net...

""Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬)"" wrote in message
...
Grunff wrote:

While I haven't actually done any measurements, I think they are one of
the cheapest in terms of running costs. This is because they have near
100% energy transfer into the pot/pan.

I would agree.
On ours you just flick the "C" button once the pan is to temp and it holds
it there cutting in and out at about 3 seconds on, 3 off.

Even at full tilt, you can put your finger on the cooker top right up to
the edge of the pan which also means everything that gets spilt will wipe
away in seconds.

Bloody marvelous invention, though there isn't an abundance of magnetic
pans on the market to chose from.

Destined to go the way of Betamax then.

No, though perhaps because of their initial cost, and the fact that most people
have gas, they will likely remain just a niche market.

--

Michael Chare

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Better having it connected to a drain od course. But if one is difficult to
get to the Atmos is ideal.

And expensive! I'm going to have to do a good deal of thinking before I
choose a boiler, but it looks like a stainless heat exchanger is going
to be right up there high on the list.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

"Guy King" wrote in message
...
The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

Better having it connected to a drain
of course. But if one is difficult to
get to the Atmos is ideal.

And expensive!

It may work out cheaper if ripping the place to pieces is in order to get a
to a drain pipe.

I'm going to have to do a good deal of thinking before I
choose a boiler, but it looks like a stainless heat exchanger is going
to be right up there high on the list.

Yep.

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Bloody marvelous invention, though there isn't an abundance of
magnetic pans on the market to chose from.

Destined to go the way of Betamax then.

Nope, because the technology can be embraced by every manufacturer
unlike betamax.

Besides, if all else fails you can always use cast iron stuff.
" le cruisier" etc.


--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://Water-Rower.co.uk - Worlds best prices on the Worlds best Rower.

The message ews.net
from "Doctor Drivel" contains these words:

It may work out cheaper if ripping the place to pieces is in order to get a
to a drain pipe.

Access would depend on where the boiler went. It's in the kitchen at the
moment, but if it's moved to the airing cupboard above then it's not far
to the bathroom drainstack.

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Huj wrote:
Thanks to everyone for their help, have decided to change to oil condensing.
Does anyone have an opinion on the esse oil fired cooker only??? Wife
thinking of purchasing one!


Cheap and nasty. We threw one out when we moved here.


--
Grunff