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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Fixing a roof truss
Hmm.. how would you fix this?
http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? Tim |
#2
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Fixing a roof truss
On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote:
Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! -- Alistair Riddell - BOFH Microsoft - because god hates us |
#3
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Fixing a roof truss
In article ,
"Tim Downie" writes: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg Well, you could fix it by either uploading an image to that URL, or saying where the image really is. -- Andrew Gabriel |
#4
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Fixing a roof truss
Alistair Riddell wrote:
On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. |
#5
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Fixing a roof truss
Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , "Tim Downie" writes: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg Well, you could fix it by either uploading an image to that URL, or saying where the image really is. -- Andrew Gabriel Oh b*gger! Should have been http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpeg (Yes, it is the Scottish paliament) Tim |
#6
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Fixing a roof truss
S Viemeister wrote:
Alistair Riddell wrote: On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. All the joints are in compression, so no need to cope with any shear force at all. Probably don;t even need teh glue. A reasonable flexible polyurethane glue should be entirely adequate. BUT what a complete load of old ******** that structure is. Obviously designed by architects and structural engineers with too much time and public money to spend. Its engineering for the sake of it. Not for any PURPOSE. |
#7
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Fixing a roof truss
The Natural Philosopher wrote: S Viemeister wrote: It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. All the joints are in compression, so no need to cope with any shear force at all. Don't you mean "All the joints *should* be in compression". If it had been in compression it's hard to see how it could have come undone. I think if the metal tie bars that run across beneath the joints have stretched or are insufficiently tensioned, then the joint could potentially be in tension. Probably don;t even need teh glue. A reasonable flexible polyurethane glue should be entirely adequate. But demonstrably not in this case. Tim |
#8
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Fixing a roof truss
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
S Viemeister wrote: Alistair Riddell wrote: On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. I'm not so sure about any glue! I reckon the "designers" relied on the wooden beams always being in compression, and thus holding themselves together. Seems they were wrong! -- Cheers, Roger ______ Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address IS valid, but is disposable in the event of excessive spam. |
#9
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Fixing a roof truss
The Natural Philosopher wrote: S Viemeister wrote: Alistair Riddell wrote: On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. All the joints are in compression, so no need to cope with any shear force at all. Probably don;t even need teh glue. A reasonable flexible polyurethane glue should be entirely adequate. BUT what a complete load of old ******** that structure is. Obviously designed by architects and structural engineers with too much time and public money to spend. Its engineering for the sake of it. Not for any PURPOSE. The architect is dead but was known as "el collapso" after the roof of a building he designed in his native Spain collapsed. Apperently the builders were at fault that time but I see a pattern forming... MBQ |
#11
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Fixing a roof truss
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
S Viemeister wrote: wrote: The architect is dead but was known as "el collapso" after the roof of a building he designed in his native Spain collapsed. Apperently the builders were at fault that time but I see a pattern forming... Now, THAT's interesting! Do you have any (preferably online) references? Is he dead because the previous building collapsed on *him*? -- Cheers, Roger ______ Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address IS valid, but is disposable in the event of excessive spam. |
#12
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Fixing a roof truss
S Viemeister wrote: wrote: The architect is dead but was known as "el collapso" after the roof of a building he designed in his native Spain collapsed. Apperently the builders were at fault that time but I see a pattern forming... Now, THAT's interesting! Do you have any (preferably online) references? From todays online Telegraph; "The modern design was the concept of Enric Miralles, the late Catalan architect who attracted the headline "El Collapso" when the roof of a sports centre he designed fell down in Spain. The builder was to blame for that collapse, but the headline was gleefully recalled yesterday in the corridors of Holyrood. The engineering firm Ove Arup was responsible for bringing his ideas to fruition in Edinburgh, and its engineers were examining the structure." MBQ |
#13
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Fixing a roof truss
Roger Mills (aka Set Square) wrote: In an earlier contribution to this discussion, S Viemeister wrote: wrote: The architect is dead but was known as "el collapso" after the roof of a building he designed in his native Spain collapsed. Apperently the builders were at fault that time but I see a pattern forming... Now, THAT's interesting! Do you have any (preferably online) references? Is he dead because the previous building collapsed on *him*? No, I don't think so. MBQ |
#15
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Fixing a roof truss
"Roger Mills (aka Set Square)" wrote:
Is he dead because the previous building collapsed on *him*? I believe it was a brain tumour of some sort. He died before the building was anywhere near complete. |
#16
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Fixing a roof truss
wrote in message oups.com... The Natural Philosopher wrote: S Viemeister wrote: Alistair Riddell wrote: On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. All the joints are in compression, so no need to cope with any shear force at all. According to today's 'Telegraph (so it must be true ...) the oddly shaped beams were 'reminiscent' of the Fife Oak beams in the original Scottish Parliament building .... that'd be the one they used before the Scottish King took over the English (&Wales) throne and the Scottish parliament voted to disband itself and be over-repreented in the Westminster place. {BTW: the exchange rate between the Scottish Pound and the English Pound was adjusted too - rather like the 'Ost'Mark and the 'Deutchmark'}. One can only presume that it was all the hot air from the MSPs that displaced the beam.I mean; surely the have Building Control Officers in Edingburgh? [One knows they didn't count the bawbees ... but !] -- Brian Probably don;t even need teh glue. A reasonable flexible polyurethane glue should be entirely adequate. BUT what a complete load of old ******** that structure is. Obviously designed by architects and structural engineers with too much time and public money to spend. Its engineering for the sake of it. Not for any PURPOSE. The architect is dead but was known as "el collapso" after the roof of a building he designed in his native Spain collapsed. Apperently the builders were at fault that time but I see a pattern forming... MBQ |
#17
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Fixing a roof truss
On Fri, 03 Mar 2006 08:54:01 -0500, S Viemeister wrote:
Alistair Riddell wrote: On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. My guess is that for some reason that strut was in tension when it shoudl have been in compression. Perhaps it was a little short. Perhaps the tie bars below are not in enough tension keep it in comrpession. Wild guess mode: If I had to be responsible for fixing it I'd slacken the tie bars a little. Replace the strut with a thickness or two of card to 'shim it out'. Then tighten the tie rods to bring it into compression. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html |
#18
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Fixing a roof truss
Brian Sharrock wrote:
One can only presume that it was all the hot air from the MSPs that displaced the beam. Well, it WAS right over the Conservative benches......... |
#19
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Fixing a roof truss
"S Viemeister" wrote in message ... Alistair Riddell wrote: On Fri, 3 Mar 2006, Tim Downie wrote: Hmm.. how would you fix this? http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpg It looks like the wooden beams were just glued into the metal parts without any through-bolting. Given their differences in expansion coefficients, seems a bit dodgy to me. What would have happened if one of the joints at the top had given way? I get a 404 not found at that URL. You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. They spent a fortune of our money on that heap of junk |
#20
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Fixing a roof truss
"S Viemeister" wrote in message ... Brian Sharrock wrote: One can only presume that it was all the hot air from the MSPs that displaced the beam. Well, it WAS right over the Conservative benches......... LOL |
#21
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Fixing a roof truss
S Viemeister wrote:
Alistair Riddell wrote: You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. Does anyone see how this story http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/57828.html can fit in any way with this image http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpeg? Not only can't you see any bolts, you can't see any bolt holes in the free end of the beam. I'm puzzled. Tim |
#22
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Fixing a roof truss
The message
from "Tim Downie" contains these words: Not only can't you see any bolts, you can't see any bolt holes in the free end of the beam. I'm puzzled. It looks like all the wood is always supposed to be in compression. Those metal tension rods will be pulling up on the bottom of each group of struts. In theory fine but obviously the designer had more familiarity with theory than real life. I'd suspect that though it should have worked nicely the tolerances involved are such that any uneven contraction in the wood would leave one strut under much lss compression than the others - enough to slip sidways out of the jaws intended to hold it. I'll bet it happens again soon, too. They'll probably end up putting a coachscrew in from each face on each strut to retain it in situations when the load's not behaving itself. -- Skipweasel Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. |
#23
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Fixing a roof truss
Guy King wrote:
The message from "Tim Downie" contains these words: Not only can't you see any bolts, you can't see any bolt holes in the free end of the beam. I'm puzzled. It looks like all the wood is always supposed to be in compression. Those metal tension rods will be pulling up on the bottom of each group of struts. In theory fine but obviously the designer had more familiarity with theory than real life. I'd suspect that though it should have worked nicely the tolerances involved are such that any uneven contraction in the wood would leave one strut under much lss compression than the others - enough to slip sidways out of the jaws intended to hold it. That's exactly the theory that was touted in the papers last week but... I'll bet it happens again soon, too. They'll probably end up putting a coachscrew in from each face on each strut to retain it in situations when the load's not behaving itself. ....the story in the papers today is that it was a missing bolt (one of two) that caused the problem. My puzzlement is over the fact that it looks like there never were *any* bolts, so how can one be missing? Tim |
#24
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Fixing a roof truss
The message
from "Tim Downie" contains these words: It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. Does anyone see how this story http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/57828.html can fit in any way with this image http://www.zen31010.zen.co.uk/images/1.jpeg? Not only can't you see any bolts, you can't see any bolt holes in the free end of the beam. It could have been an interference fit in the shoe but it seems more than a little careless to design something that will come apart like that. Or even to design something that on the face of it is a substantial strut but which must have attempting to be a tie when it came apart. I'm puzzled. So am I. Does any of the gubbins (TM) in the roof serve any purpose other than to have added to the grotesque overspend? -- Roger Chapman |
#25
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Fixing a roof truss
In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Roger wrote: So am I. Does any of the gubbins (TM) in the roof serve any purpose other than to have added to the grotesque overspend? Presumably not, if it couldn't even hold itself - let alone anything else - up! -- Cheers, Roger ______ Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address IS valid, but is disposable in the event of excessive spam. |
#26
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Fixing a roof truss
"Roger Mills (aka Set Square)" wrote in message ... In an earlier contribution to this discussion, Roger wrote: So am I. Does any of the gubbins (TM) in the roof serve any purpose other than to have added to the grotesque overspend? Presumably not, if it couldn't even hold itself - let alone anything else - up! -- Cheers, Roger __________________________________________________ _____ Agree. Seems typical of these 'Too bl**dy clever by half ' architectural 'masterpieces'! Marginally or riskily engineered, maybe, if the loss of a single bolt is crucial? Anyway; with temps rising above freezing, must go and clear some snow off the roof of this wood trussed house. Not sure what snow load the trusses were engineered for, 36 years ago when I and two carpenters built it! So far, at least, the roof hasn't blown away or shown any signs whatever of caving in, in a climate very similar to say, Scotland! i.e. occasional snow load three times in 36 years. But then of course this roof is just a plain old wood trussed, lumber roof built in much the same method used here for the last several hundreds of years. |
#27
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Fixing a roof truss
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Tim Downie" saying something like: S Viemeister wrote: Alistair Riddell wrote: You aren't perhaps talking about the Scottish "Parliament" are you?! It certainly sounds like that. I was amazed when I saw the photos - I had assumed that the beams would be held by more than just their tapered shape, and glue, but there was no sign of a bolt. Does anyone see how this story http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/57828.html can fit in any way with this "Around 3in long, similar "socket head cap screw" bolts can be bought on the internet for £1.50." Humph. I'll bet the actual charge was a tenner a bolt. -- Dave |
#28
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Fixing a roof truss
The message
from Grimly Curmudgeon contains these words: Humph. I'll bet the actual charge was a tenner a bolt. And the fuss about fixing it. Before all these stupid rules someone would have just arrived with a ladder and run up it and screwed it back into place. -- Skipweasel Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. |
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