Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid in a
portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why, and what is
the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper? (Sorry, my knowledge
of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid in a
portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why, and what is
the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper? (Sorry, my knowledge
of chemistry never was a strong point).

Err, it won't really resist.
In fact, it should never, ever be laid bare into concrete, and should
always be covered by something, be it the appropriate tape, or whatever.

Ian Stirling wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid
in a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why,
and what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).

Err, it won't really resist.
In fact, it should never, ever be laid bare into concrete, and should
always be covered by something, be it the appropriate tape, or
whatever.

Hessian sleeve with a polyurothane lining. That's what our plumber has used.
I assume that's ok as he's been doing it (hopefully correctly) for 25 years.

Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid in
a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why, and
what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps,

Don't lay copper pipes in concrete full-stop. They will eventually corrode
even if plastic sleeved. Where the pipes are joined (and there will be
joins), you will find it difficult to seal and the 'fat' of the concrete
will find its way onto the pipe causing the said corrosion.

There is a small council housing estate near to where I live with the CH
pipes buried in the concrete and after about 10 years, these started to leak
causing me to have a few grey hairs in trying to sort it out - the only cure
was to re-pipe all the systems above floor level. BTW, most cements used in
these conditions are OPC (Ordinary Portland Cement)

If you MUST lay pipes in concrete, consider using plastic - if want my
opinion - don't even do that!


Brian G

Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid in
a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why, and
what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps,

Don't lay copper pipes in concrete full-stop. They will eventually
corrode even if plastic sleeved. Where the pipes are joined (and
there will be joins), you will find it difficult to seal and the
'fat' of the concrete will find its way onto the pipe causing the
said corrosion.

There is a small council housing estate near to where I live with the
CH pipes buried in the concrete and after about 10 years, these
started to leak causing me to have a few grey hairs in trying to sort
it out - the only cure was to re-pipe all the systems above floor
level. BTW, most cements used in these conditions are OPC (Ordinary
Portland Cement)

If you MUST lay pipes in concrete, consider using plastic - if want my
opinion - don't even do that!

Just what I want, long lengths of piping running around the skirting.
My FiL's new house has all concrete floors with the pipes (micro-bore)
embedded within.
My house has never had a leaking pipe in 20 years. Does the screed really
'leak' onto the pipes to cause damage?
I'm going to go with buried pipes. If they last 10 years, good. If they last
more than 10 years, even better. If they leak, isn't that what insurance is
for?

Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid in
a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why, and
what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps,

Don't lay copper pipes in concrete full-stop. They will eventually
corrode even if plastic sleeved. Where the pipes are joined (and
there will be joins), you will find it difficult to seal and the
'fat' of the concrete will find its way onto the pipe causing the
said corrosion.

There is a small council housing estate near to where I live with the
CH pipes buried in the concrete and after about 10 years, these
started to leak causing me to have a few grey hairs in trying to sort
it out - the only cure was to re-pipe all the systems above floor
level. BTW, most cements used in these conditions are OPC (Ordinary
Portland Cement)

If you MUST lay pipes in concrete, consider using plastic - if want my
opinion - don't even do that!


Brian G

This has been asked sometime ago, however I used to live on a housing
estate 35 years ago and to this day the pipes are still buried in the
concrete...Gas copper pipe I might add. (Mothers House)

--

Sir Benjamin Midllethwaite

The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid
in a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why,
and what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps,

Don't lay copper pipes in concrete full-stop. They will eventually
corrode even if plastic sleeved. Where the pipes are joined (and
there will be joins), you will find it difficult to seal and the
'fat' of the concrete will find its way onto the pipe causing the
said corrosion.

There is a small council housing estate near to where I live with the
CH pipes buried in the concrete and after about 10 years, these
started to leak causing me to have a few grey hairs in trying to sort
it out - the only cure was to re-pipe all the systems above floor
level. BTW, most cements used in these conditions are OPC (Ordinary
Portland Cement)

If you MUST lay pipes in concrete, consider using plastic - if want
my opinion - don't even do that!


Brian G

This has been asked sometime ago, however I used to live on a housing
estate 35 years ago and to this day the pipes are still buried in the
concrete...Gas copper pipe I might add. (Mothers House)



All I can say is what I experienced on this particular site. The houses
were built in the 70 - 80's and are of a No-Fine concrete construction with
a standard concrete base with a 2" screed/tiled finish with the plastic
sleeved copper pipes buried between the both.

The problems first arose around the end of the 80's with damp patches
showing on the floor in just one house. When the pipes were exposed,
corrosion was found around the area of the pipes that were joined using
end-feed soldered fittings which had NOT been very well protected after this
was done.

When we investigated further, pipe corrosion was found upto a foot a way
from the fitting and UNDER the protective sleeve (the ends of this having
been softened when heat was applied to the joints) - which indicated that
some of the 'fat' from the screed/concrete had somehow founds its way under
the sleeve.

After this problem raised its ugly head in about 10 or 12 properties (with
the resulting insurance claims by the tenants), it was decided to fit new
heating systems and bring all of the pipework above floor level.

With regards to the "Gas copper pipe" you were talking about. If I remember
this came in very long rolls of copper with a yellow plastic sleeve, I would
presume that this was laid 'joint free' thus leaving the sleeve intact over
its entire buried length - in our case, the heating pipes were of standard
lengths and then jointed as needed. And that WOULD make a difference.



Brian G

Any cement will eventually corrode copper this is bacause of the lime

used to make the cement !!

If you need to run a copper pipe through cement run it through

a plastic one first !

Or just use the new plastic flexi pipe which takes hot or cold water and

will not corrode...

Grumps wrote:
snip

My house has never had a leaking pipe in 20 years. Does the screed really
'leak' onto the pipes to cause damage?
Yes.
It corrodes.

I'm going to go with buried pipes. If they last 10 years, good. If they last
more than 10 years, even better. If they leak, isn't that what insurance is
for?

Bare pipes don't last very long.

Properly treated, or trunked pipes should last much, much longer.
Insurance may not cover 'normal' maintainance.

Brian G wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid
in a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why,
and what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps,

Don't lay copper pipes in concrete full-stop. They will eventually
corrode even if plastic sleeved. Where the pipes are joined (and
there will be joins), you will find it difficult to seal and the
'fat' of the concrete will find its way onto the pipe causing the
said corrosion.

There is a small council housing estate near to where I live with the
CH pipes buried in the concrete and after about 10 years, these
started to leak causing me to have a few grey hairs in trying to sort
it out - the only cure was to re-pipe all the systems above floor
level. BTW, most cements used in these conditions are OPC (Ordinary
Portland Cement)

If you MUST lay pipes in concrete, consider using plastic - if want
my opinion - don't even do that!


Brian G

This has been asked sometime ago, however I used to live on a housing
estate 35 years ago and to this day the pipes are still buried in the
concrete...Gas copper pipe I might add. (Mothers House)



All I can say is what I experienced on this particular site. The houses
were built in the 70 - 80's and are of a No-Fine concrete construction with
a standard concrete base with a 2" screed/tiled finish with the plastic
sleeved copper pipes buried between the both.

The problems first arose around the end of the 80's with damp patches
showing on the floor in just one house. When the pipes were exposed,
corrosion was found around the area of the pipes that were joined using
end-feed soldered fittings which had NOT been very well protected after this
was done.

So what you are actually saying is that the pipes weren't protected. We
all agree that unprotected pipes will corrode. I think your story says
more about the competence of the original builders than the longevity
of copper pipe.

MBQ

wrote:
Brian G wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid
in a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why,
and what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps,

Don't lay copper pipes in concrete full-stop. They will eventually
corrode even if plastic sleeved. Where the pipes are joined (and
there will be joins), you will find it difficult to seal and the
'fat' of the concrete will find its way onto the pipe causing the
said corrosion.

There is a small council housing estate near to where I live with
the CH pipes buried in the concrete and after about 10 years, these
started to leak causing me to have a few grey hairs in trying to
sort it out - the only cure was to re-pipe all the systems above
floor level. BTW, most cements used in these conditions are OPC
(Ordinary Portland Cement)

If you MUST lay pipes in concrete, consider using plastic - if want
my opinion - don't even do that!


Brian G

This has been asked sometime ago, however I used to live on a
housing estate 35 years ago and to this day the pipes are still
buried in the concrete...Gas copper pipe I might add. (Mothers
House)



All I can say is what I experienced on this particular site. The
houses were built in the 70 - 80's and are of a No-Fine concrete
construction with a standard concrete base with a 2" screed/tiled
finish with the plastic sleeved copper pipes buried between the both.

The problems first arose around the end of the 80's with damp patches
showing on the floor in just one house. When the pipes were exposed,
corrosion was found around the area of the pipes that were joined
using end-feed soldered fittings which had NOT been very well
protected after this was done.

So what you are actually saying is that the pipes weren't protected.
We all agree that unprotected pipes will corrode. I think your story
says more about the competence of the original builders than the
longevity of copper pipe.

MBQ

No I am NOT saying that the pipes were not protected - please re-read the
whole thread.

What I said was that where the pipes had been joined, the joint area was NOT
VERY WELL protected after the soldering - and along with the softening of
the *plastic sleeve* caused by heat from the soldering torch, allowed the
concrete 'fat' to run into places that it shouldn't have.

With regards to the builders incompetence: you are only partly right there,
more incompetent were the architects and the CH designers for allowing the
pipes to be buried between the site concrete and screed in the first place
with any form of joints in them - and the Clerk of Works for not spotting
the pipe protection problem at the joints *before* the screeds were laid.



Brian G

Brian G wrote:
wrote:
Brian G wrote:
The3rd Earl Of Derby wrote:
Brian G wrote:
Grumps wrote:
Hi All

I read an article saying that copper will resist corrosion if laid
in a portland based concrete or mortar. Could someone explain why,
and what is the alternative to portland that WOULD corrode copper?
(Sorry, my knowledge of chemistry never was a strong point).
Ta.

Grumps,

Don't lay copper pipes in concrete full-stop. They will eventually
corrode even if plastic sleeved. Where the pipes are joined (and
there will be joins), you will find it difficult to seal and the
'fat' of the concrete will find its way onto the pipe causing the
said corrosion.

There is a small council housing estate near to where I live with
the CH pipes buried in the concrete and after about 10 years, these
started to leak causing me to have a few grey hairs in trying to
sort it out - the only cure was to re-pipe all the systems above
floor level. BTW, most cements used in these conditions are OPC
(Ordinary Portland Cement)

If you MUST lay pipes in concrete, consider using plastic - if want
my opinion - don't even do that!


Brian G

This has been asked sometime ago, however I used to live on a
housing estate 35 years ago and to this day the pipes are still
buried in the concrete...Gas copper pipe I might add. (Mothers
House)



All I can say is what I experienced on this particular site. The
houses were built in the 70 - 80's and are of a No-Fine concrete
construction with a standard concrete base with a 2" screed/tiled
finish with the plastic sleeved copper pipes buried between the both.

The problems first arose around the end of the 80's with damp patches
showing on the floor in just one house. When the pipes were exposed,
corrosion was found around the area of the pipes that were joined
using end-feed soldered fittings which had NOT been very well
protected after this was done.

So what you are actually saying is that the pipes weren't protected.
We all agree that unprotected pipes will corrode. I think your story
says more about the competence of the original builders than the
longevity of copper pipe.

MBQ

No I am NOT saying that the pipes were not protected - please re-read the
whole thread.

What I said was that where the pipes had been joined, the joint area was NOT
VERY WELL protected after the soldering - and along with the softening of

I think you are splitting hairs over the degree of protection.

MBQ