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#1
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which
newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly, so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup list as far as I can tell. I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38 liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of my query.) At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5 inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter / pressure regulator. The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of the water source above the water demand (the "head"). My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. DMR |
#2
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
wrote in message ups.com... Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly, so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup list as far as I can tell. I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38 liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of my query.) At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5 inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter / pressure regulator. The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of the water source above the water demand (the "head"). My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. DMR 100 feet of elevation will give you 43.31 pounds of pressure. 1 foot = .43 psi just multiply feet of elevation cahng time .43 to get pressure you want |
#3
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
wrote in message ups.com... Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly, so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup list as far as I can tell. I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38 liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of my query.) At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5 inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter / pressure regulator. The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of the water source above the water demand (the "head"). My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. DMR 1. 100 feet of elevation difference. 2. No 3. No I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the excess water. Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow. This data is missing. SJF |
#5
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
I did this kinda thing for my mom, back in 1976... geez how time
flies Anyhow with a similiar drop and using garden hose we were able to run a sprinkler the kind that goes left and right, for a long time. in my moms case she had a cistern on the hill, for their home. I tapped the overflow to a old hot water tank so she could water her garden withourt concern about depleting the water for her house. It worked great till my moved back here and got diovorced. odd how something that long ago applies here today |
#6
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
SJF wrote:
wrote in message ups.com... My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. 1. 100 feet of elevation difference. 2. No 3. No Thank you. Your answer matched the other reply. Hummm. Why did I not know the answer? 100 feet of head is 100 feet of head, after all. It does not seem it could be that simple. I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the excess water. Yes. Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow. This data is missing. The greatest demand at the cabin will probably be a shower: about 5 gallons a minute at most. Since the hill's incline is about 20 degrees, I can probably use a sine table to find distance. Angle "A" is 20 degrees and side "a" is 100 feet. Makes me wish I finished high school. :-) Horizontal distance at the moment is unknown because I do not know how far away, climbing the hill, will be 100 feet high. Thank you for your answers. Since the answer to query #2 appears to be "No," then we can err on the side of too high. SJF |
#7
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
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#8
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Jerry Avins wrote:
wrote: My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. 50 PSI is not too high for domestic plumbing. The pump switch at my country cabin keeps the tank pressure between 30 and 50 psi. (The tank level is approximately floor level.) There is a pressure-relief valve rated at 150 psi to ensure that the tank doesn't burst from overpressure, and the pipes can withstand more than that. PVC schedule 40 pipe is rated at 280 PSI cold, derated to 210 at 90F. (Derate to 72% to allow for water hammer.) Where freezing is possible, you may prefer polyethylene, which withstands somewhat lower pressure but tolerates freezing and better withstands water hammer. In any case, 1-1/4" pipe will generously supply your cabin from any reasonable distance. My cabin is supplied by a 1" pipe through a 100' run from the tank I mentioned. My suburban house is supplied from the main 125' distant through a 1" pipe, and inside plumbing is 1/2" copper, though 3/4 would be better. "Just do it" would seem to be appropriate. Humm. Thank you for your reply. We plan on burrying the pipe about 24 inches because freezing is a problem. However we will also plumb a fitting to drain the system. The owner of the ranch, bless her heart, wants water in the cabin even in the winter, so we plan on burrying the supply system and then adding drain taps to the shower and sink. The owner of the ranch suggested 1.5 inch pipe but I said, guessing, that would be "over-kill." However, it also occured to me that bigger is always better. :-) If they can afford the 1.5 inch pipe, I'll install it. I think polyethylene will be used since that is what is used on other parts of the ranch (there is water already going to The Big House and also water going down here in the bunk house where I live). Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve. Thank you for your reply. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
#9
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
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#10
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Cameron Dorrough wrote:
wrote in message ups.com... My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. You didn't say how far up the hill the spring is... If you plan to bury the barrel higher up the hill than the spring, you will most likely have to install a pump to fill the barrel. Hi. Thank you for replying to my query. The spring is quite high up the hill (at the moment I do not know the height), however there is already a pipe from it going down to the ranch. The goal here is to tap into that pipe to fill a buried 55 drum and have the over-flow continue down to the ranch. The bottom of the barrel would then be plumbed to the cabin. If you do need to install a pump, it is probably cheaper and a lot less trouble to install the barrel, pump and a pressure regulator at the cabin itself to save installing several hundred feet of pipe and pump motor cables - and maybe use the excess head pressure to run a turbine supplying power to both the pump and the cabin. There is no power at the cabin. As for the excess pressure, the amount of work (w=fd) the water could perform at the cabin would be zero: the water flow would be at where the 55 gallon drum is. But I like the idea of getting power out of the water: at the moment the water flows into a fish pond and then is piped down to the river---- all gravity fed. HTH, Cameron:-) |
#11
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
zxcvbob wrote:
You already have your answer -- 100 vertical feet from the cabin will give you 43 PSI static pressure. The pipe size is determined first by your maximum expected draw rate and then by the length. The more gallons per minutes you want, the larger the pipe to avoid too much pressure drop. (sorry, I don't recall the flow rates for different size pipes) Don't forget that there's a 1.25" pipe size. Thank you. Unless I can think of any reason other than cost to not suggest the ranch owners buy 1.5 polyethylene hose, that is what I'll suggest: it is the same size and material currently used elsewhere on the ranch. As for pressure drops, I'll ask the ranch owners what shower head flow rate they plan on installing. Seems to me they could run five gallons a minute and still suffer no pressure drop. Bob |
#12
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
1.5 DEFINETELY BETTER! Thats what I helped install for my moms main
water line. a gazillion years ago, its pretty cheap to. you might add a solar panel & battery for minimal lighting too. |
#13
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
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#14
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
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#15
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
"SJF" wrote in message news:sEsMf.70025$bF.45229@dukeread07... wrote in message ups.com... Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly, so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup list as far as I can tell. I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38 liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of my query.) At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5 inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter / pressure regulator. The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of the water source above the water demand (the "head"). My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. DMR 1. 100 feet of elevation difference. 2. No 3. No I presume you will use the barrel as a reservoir with overflow of the excess water. Pipe size depend on the horizontal distance and the desired rate of flow. This data is missing. SJF Sorry! I hastily misread your question 2. The answer is YES. If you put the collector higher than 100 feet, the static pressure will be more than 43 psi. That's a pretty steep hill at 20 degrees. Or did you mean 20 percent grade? A slope of 20 degrees means the minimum length of your supply line to the house will be 300 feet. For a 20 percent slope, it would be 500 feet. You will probably need something to counter water hammer when you shut off the flow. SJF |
#16
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
In article .com
, writes Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve. I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#17
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
wrote in message ups.com... Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly, so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup list as far as I can tell. I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38 liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of my query.) At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5 inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter / pressure regulator. The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of the water source above the water demand (the "head"). My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? I shall appreciate any thoughts and opinions on the subject. DMR to help with water hammer you can install a small bladder type tank right before the pipe goes in the house...to help take up the shock when a valve is closed. Or another way is to put a tee in the line then run a vertical pipe up a few feet and cap it...the trapped air will act as a "shock absorber" when valves are closed. |
#18
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
"digitalmaster" wrote in message ... wrote in message ups.com... Please pardon this multiple newsgroup article. I do not know which newsgroup would be the most-correct. I hang out in talk.origins mostly, so I do not know which hard-science venue would be appropreate for my query. Hydrodynamics does not seem to be represented in the newsgroup list as far as I can tell. I live and work on a cattle ranch. (Moooo!) We have a fresh-water spring on the side of a hill that produces about ten gallons (38 liters) of water per minute. We want to go up the hill and dig a hole and bury a 55-gallon (208 liter) drum as a collection box and pipe the spring water into the top of the drum; we then want to run a pipe from the bottom of the drum and down the hill into a cabin. (There will also be an over-flow fitting at the top of the drum, but that is not part of my query.) At the cabin we hope to get around 43 PSI, or about 100 head feet, of water pressure. We plan on using pipe with an inner diameter of 1.5 inches or perhaps 1.0 inches. We do not want to use a water meter / pressure regulator. The hill's decline is about 20 degrees, but I do not know if that is important to know. As far as I know, what is important is the height of the water source above the water demand (the "head"). My query is: 1) how high up the hill should the collecting drum be? Keep the drum as near to the borehole as possible. It may be worth your while making the drum bigger, or multiple drums, for a large water store. Then keep the borehols as small as possible to avoid losing water. If it gushes away you may dry up the water source at certain times of the year. Only you can actually know this being local to it. 2) is there a danger of too much pressure if the collecting drum is too high up the hill? Not at 3 bar there isn't. 3) is a pressure regulator at the cabin necessary? At about 3 bar (30 foot vertically is approx 1 bar) you don't have great pressure. My house is 4.5 bar from the mains with no pressure reducer. 3 bar will give a nice shower too. to help with water hammer you can install a small bladder type tank right before the pipe goes in the house...to help take up the shock when a valve is closed. It is called a shock arrestor. It can be the size of a tennis ball. Water hammer tends to be when taps are turned off sharply, like having lever handles. Water hammer may not be a problem as any shocks may work their way back up the supply pipe. Or another way is to put a tee in the line then run a vertical pipe up a few feet and cap it...the trapped air will act as a "shock absorber" when valves are closed. The air pocket will eventually disappear, so best get the proper fitting. |
#19
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
In article .com,
wrote: digitalmaster wrote: 100 feet of elevation will give you 43.31 pounds of pressure. 1 foot = .43 psi just multiply feet of elevation cahng time .43 to get pressure you want Thank you. Is it really that simple? Seems to me even one of our cows could have figured that out. I can make it more complicated for you, if you like. Pressure is force per unit area, or the weight of water per unit area. The volume of water in a pipe is V=A*h, where A is the cross-sectional area and h is the height. The density is d, acceleration of gravity g, giving a weight of W=A*h*d*g, and divide by A to get pressure, P=hdg. But d and g are physical constants, the only parameter that you can adjust is h. So just say 0.43 psi per foot. No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position. Also, if the pipe is too skinny the pressure will drop when the water is running because of the impedence of the line. I don't know off-hand what you'd get from a one inch ID. If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli if you think it might be a problem. -- "In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd |
#20
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Jerry Avins wrote: mm wrote: This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back. 8-) Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe. How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something? Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that steel pipe might generate. There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph. If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour, would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't! Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the flow is the same. Harry K ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ |
#21
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
In article ,
Jerry Avins wrote: mm wrote: This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back. 8-) Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe. How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something? Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that steel pipe might generate. There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph. If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour, would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't! I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright, capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line. -- "You're not as dumb as you look. Or sound. Or our best testing indicates." -- Monty Burns to Homer Simpson |
#22
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
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#23
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
fred wrote: In article .com , writes Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve. I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not expensive. Not needed in his installation though. Harry K |
#24
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
"Jerry Avins" wrote in message ... Gregory L. Hansen wrote: ... I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright, capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line. A riser is a way to create a volume out of materials at hand. Like any tank with water in contact with air, it needs a way to replenish the air periodically. Because the air-water interface is relatively small, loss of air is relatively slow. Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use) and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed. |
#25
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
[snip] If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli if you think it might be a problem. E. Coli, cryptosporidia, giardia, the fun never ends. Plus, some possible things that may be in the water require either boiling or significant chemicals to get rid of. They typical way that cattle country folk test the water goes like so. They elect one of their group to try the water. They don't *tell* him he's elected, just fill his canteen with the at-hand liquid. If he remains of acceptable health, the water is declared fit to drink. Socks |
#26
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
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#27
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
"Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... Jerry Avins wrote: mm wrote: This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back. 8-) Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe. How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something? Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that steel pipe might generate. There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph. If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour, would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't! Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the flow is the same. Harry K ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Actually, in your case, it is the distance from your house to the water main that determines the water hammer. Not the total distance to the supply source. The OP is dealing with a single long pipe which will create a problem unlike the usual suburban situation. SJF |
#28
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Gregory L. Hansen wrote:
In article .com, wrote: Thank you. Is it really that simple? Seems to me even one of our cows could have figured that out. I can make it more complicated for you, if you like. Great! My life is not nearly as complicated as it outta be. :-) Pressure is force per unit area, or the weight of water per unit area. The volume of water in a pipe is V=A*h, where A is the cross-sectional area and h is the height. The density is d, acceleration of gravity g, giving a weight of W=A*h*d*g, and divide by A to get pressure, P=hdg. But d and g are physical constants, the only parameter that you can adjust is h. So just say 0.43 psi per foot. Okay, I will. :-) I have yet to look at the on-demand propane water heater's specifications for water pressure to see what its tolerances are, but at the moment I am considering locating the water source 120 feet above the outlet. No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position. We will probably create our own flat area on the hill to bury the water collection box (55 gallon drum), so the hill will not force us to pick a site we don't want--- unless we hit a boulder. But then we also got some dynamite. Also, if the pipe is too skinny the pressure will drop when the water is running because of the impedence of the line. I don't know off-hand what you'd get from a one inch ID. Current water lines on the ranch are 1.5 diameter. I suppose the owners of the ranch will want to keep the same diameter, since there are already tools and spare parts for that size. If I were in cow country, I might be worried about drinking water that had been filtered through cow poop. I'll just have to trust that you know what you're doing, but you might want to get the water tested for E. Coli if you think it might be a problem. I have been force to drink such water when I hiked across the Mojave Desert and then up the length of Death Valley (for fun; no, really). Fortunately the water here is extremely clean: it comes out of rocks and flows into a concrete tank at the spring; the spring and tank are covered with plastic sheeting, plywood, and rocks. Two of the three humans who live here have been drinking it for 11 years. For 40 years that water used to be transported down to the ranch via cedar logs that had been carved into troughs like a flue; 30 years ago that flue was replaced with hose. There is another good spring down the canyon a mile that was once flued down to the canyon floor (well, a bench 30 feet above the canyon floor) around 70 years ago. It is located at the base of a cliff wall that rises 1,700 feet. I climb up there now and then to get a drink. :-) -- "In any case, don't stress too much--cortisol inhibits muscular hypertrophy. " -- Eric Dodd |
#29
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
"Gregory L. Hansen" wrote in message ... In article , I thought the classic way of dealing with water hammer is an upright, capped, air-filled length of pipe connected to the line. Correct. There is also the possibility of using a pop-off valve as used on steam boilers set for something like 70 pounds of pressure -- located near the cabin, of course. This would assume the occasional spurt of waste water can be accommodated. OT --I was once assigned as maintenance engineer for a group of irrigation projects. At one location we had a buried 39 inch pipe, a mile long, from a reservoir to the head of a canal. Failure of the local crews to observe operating procedures at the springtime turn on of the system resulted in water hammer that blew off three manhole structures along the length of the pipe. Fortunately, no pipe was broken and we were able to get the system back in operation before water was needed. But we should have had some kind of custom designed pressure relief device built in near the end of the pipe. SJF |
#30
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
In article .com
, Harry K writes fred wrote: In article .com , writes Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve. I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not expensive. Not needed in his installation though. I suppose that depends where you come from. If you come from places where mains pressure hot water storage is not the norm then that is not the case. A lower pressure tank can always be made for less than a high pressure one. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#31
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Okay, I will. :-) I have yet to look at the on-demand propane water heater's specifications for water pressure to see what its tolerances are, but at the moment I am considering locating the water source 120 feet above the outlet. The propane on-demand heater I've got works with 18' of head fed through a 3/4" garden hose, but not with 16'. I know this because the 55-gal barrel sits on a 16' tower, and the heater doesn't work when the barrel's less than half full. No regulator is necessary because the pressure is determined by the height of the tank, and I assume the tank will have a predictable position. We will probably create our own flat area on the hill to bury the water collection box (55 gallon drum), so the hill will not force us to pick a site we don't want--- unless we hit a boulder. But then we also got some dynamite. |
#32
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
The message
from Jerry Avins contains these words: Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use) and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed. And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large. Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down the loss, too. -- Skipweasel Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. |
#33
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
fred wrote:
In article .com , Harry K writes fred wrote: In article .com , writes Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve. I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not expensive. Not needed in his installation though. I suppose that depends where you come from. If you come from places where mains pressure hot water storage is not the norm then that is not the case. A lower pressure tank can always be made for less than a high pressure one. Your view of pressures is not consistent with reality. Consider that many tires take a static 50-60 psi and all are at least 35psi rating; when you hit a bump psi goes high. Bicycle tires normally run these days from around 50 psi to 125 psi. At my house the city pressure is 70-80 psi and no one has a problem with the pressure. Any metal pipe can easily take a pressure of at least 100 psi and any water heater is designed for an even higher bursting pressure. Really cheap poly pipe is made for 80 psi, better grades are rated at 120 psi and higher. And of course almost all lawn hoses will take a minimum pressure of 70=80 psi and most are fine with quite a bit more (especially if you don't leave them pressurized in the sun at 105 degrees. Even food grade polyethylene (very soft plastic) will take 40-50 psi as long as you don't let it get hot. As for tank costs, a 20 gallon air tank rated for 125 psi can be bought for less than $25. And you can buy new empty 5 gallon propane tanks that will take very high pressure for $20. |
#34
Posted to sci.physics,alt.home.repair,sci.engr.control,uk.d-i-y
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
In article
et, George E. Cawthon writes fred wrote: In article .com , Harry K writes fred wrote: In article .com , writes Your system uses a pump; the cabin where the ranch owners want water does not have any electricity (nearest power line is 22 miles away) so it must all be gravity fed. Elizabeth wants hot water, however, so an on-demand propane heater will probably be used. Since there will be no tanks at the cabin, perhaps we will skip the pressure relief valve. I was going to ask you what you were using for hot water as that will likely be the weak point regarding pressure. Ok, no tanks, fine cylinders for that kind of pressure would be expensive. Just check that your hot water heater can take the pressure you are talking about, preferably +50% as you are likely to get pressure surges when a tap is turned off hard or say when a washer stops filling, derating helps with longevity. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla Any standard hot water heater or well storage tank will take pressures way over that 40 to 50 psi he is talking about and they are not expensive. Not needed in his installation though. I suppose that depends where you come from. If you come from places where mains pressure hot water storage is not the norm then that is not the case. A lower pressure tank can always be made for less than a high pressure one. Your view of pressures is not consistent with reality. Whose particular view of reality is that? Are you familiar with the practices of hot water storage throughout the world? You may notice that at least one of the cross posted groups in this thread is UK specific so you have gained the experience of someone who lives in that area. Here, hot water, if stored, is generally contained in either copper or stainless steel 'cylinders' to avoid the effects of corrosion. Copper is expensive and so low pressure tanks are made thinner and therefore cheaper. It is not common practice here to store hot water in bicycle tyres or propane tanks. -- fred Plusnet - I hope you like vanilla |
#35
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Guy King wrote:
The message from Jerry Avins contains these words: Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use) and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed. And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large. Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down the loss, too. How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the water and the air? |
#36
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
"Nick" wrote in message ...
Guy King wrote: How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the water and the air? Just fill the stand pipe with tennis balls. Make sure the pipe is slightly wider than the balls. |
#37
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
SJF wrote: "Harry K" wrote in message oups.com... Jerry Avins wrote: mm wrote: This is a ranch, man. If there is water hammer, they'll hammer back. 8-) Ranch, shmanch. If there's a serious water hammer it can blow a fitting off the pipe. There's more than 300 lb of water in 400' of 1.5" pipe. How fast do you think you can stop it without breaking something? Stretch in the pipe wall helps considerably. With polyethylene pipe, t can reduce the peak pressure to one quarter, down from the 1000 psi that steel pipe might generate. There's 37.5 gallons in out hypothetical 400' run of 1.5" pipe, weighing about 300 lb. At 5 gpm, it flows at 100 fpm, or 17 ft/sec or over 5 mph. If you slam a 300lb weight into a cinder-block wall at 5 miles an hour, would you bet that the wall stands? I wouldn't! Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. There shouldn't be any more problem of water hammer with that set up than with a standard system with long runs of pipe. I was on a community well system (40-60 psi) with a 1/4 mile run to the well for me. Never had a hammer. No difference in flow in the pipe or dynamics of possible water hammer if the pipe is horizontal or vertical, the flow is the same. Harry K ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ ŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻŻ Actually, in your case, it is the distance from your house to the water main that determines the water hammer. Not the total distance to the supply source. The OP is dealing with a single long pipe which will create a problem unlike the usual suburban situation. SJF That was my distance to the system, 1/4 mile of pipe between my house and the well, no other connections. Harry K |
#38
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Water head, pressure, pipe diameter
Jerry Avins wrote: Nick wrote: Guy King wrote: The message from Jerry Avins contains these words: Place a simple air valve at the top, (the kind a tire would use) and have a bike pump to refill the air when needed. And a sight glass to show when it's needed. A skinny pump is best. The volume needed isn't high, and 100 psi is easier if the tube isn't large. Injecting a little oil to seal the air from the water should slow down the loss, too. How about putting a synthetic rubber ball in the pipe between the water and the air? If the friction is low and the pipe smooth, that ought to work pretty well. Jerry -- Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get. Of course the best method if a hammer is encounted is to just put in a standard surge tank. They are small, cheap and have a bladder. Install and forget. Harry K |
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