Please save me from learning life the hard way; I've learnt from past
experiences with plumbers and the like (no offence to honest
professional plumbers) which is why I am turning to you good folks who
selflessly devote time to advising less clued up people like me. I
don't seem to be able to find a trustworthy heating engineer in East
London, so if you know one you can recommend, please kindly pass on the
name and tel.no.

Seems the boiler packed up on New Year's Day. It's a small studio
flat on the third floor. Just before I moved in less than two years
ago, a power shower and new bathroom was installed. I believe the
boiler is very old as it's a Myson Apollo. There could be a number
of reasons why there was suddenly no hot water and replacing the boiler
might seem a bit drastic. I am mindful of costs and have learnt from
past mistakes that a simple problem never has a simple solution and in
the end, the no. of call-outs plus labour and parts equate to paying
for something new upfront.

The hot water was timed to run at certain times of the day, everyday
and circulated the radiators, keeping them lukewarm (I never needed to
turn on the CH) and kept the small flat warm enough. It is wasteful to
heat up a whole cylinder of water just for a shower and washing-up for
1 person. I'm thinking a combi is more suitable in my case.
However, I have to think of the costs of ripping out the conventional
system plus new-ish power shower, hidden pipework,etc.

Would replacing with another conventional boiler be cheaper than
installing a condensing combi system? I am worried about the
condensing plume of steam affecting neighbours in my block of flats. I
also don't have plans to stay in the flat for more than say, 5 years.

Please advise me as to a suitable make and size of boiler. I have
looked at Alpha and Vaillant but seems the heat output is way too much
for a 1-person studio flat but what do I know. How do I calculate the
size of boiler I need? The studio dimensions are 7.5m X 4.37m X 2.62m
( or 24'4" X 14'4" X 8'7.5" ceiling height ).

I would be most grateful for any advice. Thank you.

"Late Learner" wrote in message
oups.com...
Please save me from learning life the hard way; I've learnt from past
experiences with plumbers and the like (no offence to honest
professional plumbers) which is why I am turning to you good folks who
selflessly devote time to advising less clued up people like me. I
don't seem to be able to find a trustworthy heating engineer in East
London, so if you know one you can recommend, please kindly pass on the
name and tel.no.

Seems the boiler packed up on New Year's Day. It's a small studio
flat on the third floor. Just before I moved in less than two years
ago, a power shower and new bathroom was installed. I believe the
boiler is very old as it's a Myson Apollo. There could be a number
of reasons why there was suddenly no hot water and replacing the boiler
might seem a bit drastic. I am mindful of costs and have learnt from
past mistakes that a simple problem never has a simple solution and in
the end, the no. of call-outs plus labour and parts equate to paying
for something new upfront.

The hot water was timed to run at certain times of the day, everyday
and circulated the radiators, keeping them lukewarm (I never needed to
turn on the CH) and kept the small flat warm enough. It is wasteful to
heat up a whole cylinder of water just for a shower and washing-up for
1 person. I'm thinking a combi is more suitable in my case.
However, I have to think of the costs of ripping out the conventional
system plus new-ish power shower, hidden pipework,etc.

Would replacing with another conventional boiler be cheaper than
installing a condensing combi system? I am worried about the
condensing plume of steam affecting neighbours in my block of flats. I
also don't have plans to stay in the flat for more than say, 5 years.

Please advise me as to a suitable make and size of boiler. I have
looked at Alpha and Vaillant but seems the heat output is way too much
for a 1-person studio flat but what do I know. How do I calculate the
size of boiler I need? The studio dimensions are 7.5m X 4.37m X 2.62m
( or 24'4" X 14'4" X 8'7.5" ceiling height ).

I would be most grateful for any advice. Thank you.

A combi is ideal for you. You can have non-condensing combis if the plume
is a nuisance. The CH side may appear too large. But they modulate the
burner down so get one that modulates quite low. The hot water? If mainly
showers a 12 litres per min on a 35C temperature rise is adequate if mainly
showers are used. If you take baths all the time then a higher flow is
needed. Make sure the pump is removed from the shower if the combi is fed
from the mains. Have a wall stat/programmer to control the heating. If you
have a cylinder in the studio then the combi will release valuable space.

The hot water was timed to run at certain times of the day, everyday
and circulated the radiators, keeping them lukewarm (I never needed to
turn on the CH) and kept the small flat warm enough. It is wasteful to
heat up a whole cylinder of water just for a shower and washing-up for
1 person. I'm thinking a combi is more suitable in my case.

Absolutely, if there was any installation that is crying out for a combi it
is a single person studio flat with a shower.

Would replacing with another conventional boiler be cheaper than
installing a condensing combi system?

Possibly not. Your existing system appears not to have modern controls (i.e.
rads come on when hot water is required etc) and would need to be brought up
to date. It is probably cheaper to install a combi and remove the old
cylinder than to bring the old system up to scratch.

I am worried about the condensing plume of steam affecting neighbours
in my block of flats.

That would depend on the flue position etc. We couldn't possibly comment
without a more detailed knowledge of the layout.

Please advise me as to a suitable make and size of boiler. I have
looked at Alpha and Vaillant but seems the heat output is way too much
for a 1-person studio flat but what do I know. How do I calculate the
size of boiler I need?

A combi is sized by the hot water requirement, not the space heating
requirement. A studio flat probably only needs a few kW to keep warm.
However, you should be looking at 28kW for the hot water to get a lovely
powerful shower that doesn't go tepid in winter.

I've got a Worcester-Bosch Greenstar. Not a combi, but an excellent boiler
and available in combi form.

Some possibilities ideal for studio flats:

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/s...unior_28i.html
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/s...bi_Boiler.html
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/s...bi_Boiler.html

If you need to route the flue through a long and circuitous path, then the
Keston allows you to do this with standard high quality drainpipes, rather
than expensive flue extension kits. Costs a little more to start with but it
includes the flue terminals (which are extra with most boilers). With any
flue length or with a few bends, it starts looking much cheaper.

http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/s...mbi_Range.html

Christian.

Thanks, doctor, but as of April 2005, I must only install condensing
combis. I need to base my final decision on cost more than space as I
do not plan to stay in this flat for longer than 5 years. Also,
there's a bath, but I only take showers.

I would appreciate anyone else's input as regards other points raised
in my query. Thanks.

Thanks for the links, Christian. I'll look them up right away.
Meanwhile, anybody knows somebody who knows a reliable heating engineer
in East London? Thanks.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 03:07:44 -0800, Late Learner wrote:

Thanks, doctor, but as of April 2005, I must only install condensing
combis. I need to base my final decision on cost more than space as I
do not plan to stay in this flat for longer than 5 years. Also,
there's a bath, but I only take showers.

I would appreciate anyone else's input as regards other points raised
in my query. Thanks.


Have a look through the boiler choice FAQ
Come back with any issues not covered.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

"Late Learner" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks, doctor, but as of April 2005,
I must only install condensing combis.

I know that. I did say, "You can have non-condensing combis if the plume is
a nuisance." There is an exemption, and a nusiance plume is one.

I need to base my final decision on cost more than space as I
do not plan to stay in this flat for longer than 5 years. Also,
there's a bath, but I only take showers.

A 12 l/min combi will do. A bit slow on the bath but still OK.

Thanks again. Now that puts a new complexion on things. Is exemption
granted automatically or does a higher authority need to assess the
situation?

Pls tell me, apart from removing the pump, cylinder and tank, will
pipes need to be changed to accomodate a new shower that is suitable
for a combi. I'm asking this because the bathroom is relatively newly
refurbished - so am I looking at quite a big job? Thanks.

Thanks Ed. Have just taken a look. Is very informative and will print
out to seriously read tonight.

Thanks Ed. Have just taken a look. Is very informative and will print
out to seriously read tonight.

"Late Learner" wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks again. Now that puts a new complexion on things. Is exemption
granted automatically or does a higher authority need to assess the
situation?

Pls tell me, apart from removing the pump, cylinder and tank, will
pipes need to be changed to accomodate a new shower that is suitable
for a combi. I'm asking this because the bathroom is relatively newly
refurbished - so am I looking at quite a big job? Thanks.

If the plume can enter other windows it is clearly exempt. Also if you fit
a condensing boiler and a neighbour complains you may be made to remove the
boiler.

Check the shower make and model. They usually make high and low pressure
versions. If low pressure get a high pressure cartridge. Virtually
straight exchange and no pipework.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 02:01:55 -0800, Late Learner wrote:

Thanks again. Now that puts a new complexion on things. Is exemption
granted automatically or does a higher authority need to assess the
situation?

There is an exemption procedure for avoiding a condensing boiler install.
Essentially points are given for the type of property.
More points are given if the boiler has to have a new location.
More are given if the location must move due to condensate drain problems.
If get enough points (1000) then the installer can fill in a form
declaring the reason for the Part-L non-compliance.

If you are diying then the form would/should get building control off your
back.

The exact details are on the ODPM site.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Thanks. Sounds more promising now. Will let you know outcome. I have
also written to the management of the block of flats for some guidance
- I was warned to apply to them first before I do any work on the flat.

Thanks, Ed. With all these hints, I may end up sounding more
knowledgeable than the installer. That'll may him think. I'll keep
you informed of progress.

Thanks, Ed. With all these hints, I may end up sounding more
knowledgeable than the installer. That'll make him think. I'll keep
you informed of progress - probably not soon as I still have to pin
down a reliable heating engineer or next best person.

"Late Learner" wrote in message
oups.com...

Thanks, Ed. With all these hints, I may end up sounding more
knowledgeable than the installer.

That I would not doubt.

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 01:21:05 -0800, Late Learner wrote:

Thanks, Ed. With all these hints, I may end up sounding more
knowledgeable than the installer. That'll may him think. I'll keep
you informed of progress.

A possible case for the exemption procedure applies to a job that I am
currently looking at.

The flat is on the first floor and is part of a conversion from a large
early C20 mansion. The flat has a kitchen window at the side where
the existing broken balanced flue boiler sits. The side is about 2m away
from a very similar converted property next door. The only exterior walls
are the side and the front. The only way to install a condensing flue
would be to extend the flue above the roof line some 10m above ground
level. This will cost a small fortune in scaffolding costs alone.
It would make a lot of sense to simply install a normal F/F conventional
combi.
(There is no question about a combi here - there's no pressure and flow
from the "top cupboard cisterns" on the existing system anyway).

Since the boiler is not being moved the points for exemption add up:

700 for a flat with gas boiler.
210 for a long flue.

There is no need to relocation the boiler and every reason not to.
There is no problem with the condensate drain.

Apparently the procedure does not allow for this, except by the straight
declaration - "the flue cannot be installed". There must be a cut off for
the expense of installing the flue. I estimate the additional flue costs
will be around £1000-£1500!

I will be doing two quotes that are £1250 different!

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

Ed, the more I read, the more respect I have for you guys. There's no
way I would be allowed to spoil the look of the building by sticking a
long flue up another 4 floors, so it seems I could be exempt. The
boiler is on the inside of the exterior wall (and the cylinder and tank
are inside a cupboard about 5 metres away on adjacent internal wall).
I'm still digesting the information you asked me to read. This is a
great way to learn. Thanks.