Help please....


I've got about 2 bar coming into my Victorian house in London. My new
multi-head shower needs at least 3 bar (not sure of the flow rate).

A Conventional system will take up too much room and require reinforcement
in the loft area

What options do I have? I have ordered a 4 bar pump but have been led to
believe that this is only suitable for a convential system as opposed to a
combi or Megaflow system.

The house has 3 bathrooms, only one requires high pressure and high flow
rate, but I do need the ability to have at least 2 hot showers at the same
time.

Not really a tall order I would think? What are my options?

Many thanks in advance...

P.S A water softner needs to be placed somewhere...

3D

On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:46:25 +0100, Daniel Loshak
wrote:

Help please....


I've got about 2 bar coming into my Victorian house in London. My new
multi-head shower needs at least 3 bar (not sure of the flow rate).

The more important point is what is the flow rate? You can have
perfectly good pressure (although this isn't brilliant), but a lousy
flow rate.

COuld you maybe measure the flow at a tap (normally the kitchen cold
tap). THis can easily be done by taking a vessel of known size
(e.g. a 10 litre bucket) and timing how long it takes to fill. You
can then do the sums to work out that flow rate in litres per minute.

It's pointless getting into discussions about different types of
system unless the flow is good enough to provide what you need.

To run two normal showers you need to have at least 10 l/min each,
preferably 15. Your multihead one probably needs 15 - 20 for
results that make it worthwhile - so realistically 30 l/min for the
property is the minimum.


A Conventional system will take up too much room and require reinforcement
in the loft area

If it turns out that you have an inadequate water flow, you will have
the choice of upgrading the supply from the road or of using a
conventional system with a roof tank and a pump.

If the flow is adequate, then this implies some sort of instant heat
solution.

For this, you could use a combi boiler, except that at the flow rate
you need, even a large one is going to fall short in cold weather and
you would be running the showers at lower than normal flow.
Two boilers could be used, but you need to watch out for the total
heat input requirement. A domestic gas meter (IIRC) is able to
deliver a supply for up to 62kW of heat equivalent and large combi
boilers are in the 28-30kW range, meaning nothing left for other
requirements. In this scenario, if you could split the requirement
appropriately, you might be able to go for one large and one small or
something.

A heat bank or thermal store are other approaches. These use a
cylinder of water heated by the boiler to 76-80 degrees. This is
then used to heat the water indirectly. You do have to find some
space for the cylinder, but a large roof tank is not needed - just a
small CH one. Some of these appliances have the header tank integral
with the cylinder.
These are able to deliver a lot more heat than a combi does (could be
as much as 200kW) so are less likely to run into difficulties when the
water is really cold. You can also arrange that the boiler comes on
and starts replenishing the stored heat as soon as it starts to be
used. However, the store cylinder does need to be adequately sized
to deliver the output heat for as long as is required. If you are
drawing stored energy at a 100 kW rate to heat the water and
replenishing from the boiler at only 30kW, the stored heat runs out
eventually and the system becomes, in effect, like a combi.





What options do I have? I have ordered a 4 bar pump but have been led to
believe that this is only suitable for a convential system as opposed to a
combi or Megaflow system.

I would hold off on the pump until you have the rest figured out.



The house has 3 bathrooms, only one requires high pressure and high flow
rate, but I do need the ability to have at least 2 hot showers at the same
time.

Not really a tall order I would think? What are my options?

You wouldn't think so, but this is asking a lot unless you have a good
flow of water, so that's the place to start.



Many thanks in advance...

P.S A water softner needs to be placed somewhere...

That also needs to be a high flow model. Most are these days, but it
will have something of a reducing effect on flow. Generally they are
quite small so finding a home should not be too big an issue.

It may be prudent to check the cold mains and then get a softener
supplier in to do a demo. Measure the rate that you get then and see
if it is enough.





3D

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Daniel Loshak wrote:

I've got about 2 bar coming into my Victorian house in London. My new
multi-head shower needs at least 3 bar (not sure of the flow rate).

A Conventional system will take up too much room and require reinforcement
in the loft area

And won't provide 3 bar.


What options do I have? I have ordered a 4 bar pump but have been led to
believe that this is only suitable for a convential system as opposed to a
combi or Megaflow system.

So what system do you have? How is your hot water heated?

--
Grunff

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:46:25 +0100, Daniel Loshak
wrote:

Help please....


I've got about 2 bar coming into my Victorian house in London. My new
multi-head shower needs at least 3 bar (not sure of the flow rate).

The more important point is what is the flow rate? You can have
perfectly good pressure (although this isn't brilliant), but a lousy
flow rate.

COuld you maybe measure the flow at a tap (normally the kitchen cold
tap). THis can easily be done by taking a vessel of known size
(e.g. a 10 litre bucket) and timing how long it takes to fill. You
can then do the sums to work out that flow rate in litres per minute.

It's pointless getting into discussions about different types of
system unless the flow is good enough to provide what you need.

To run two normal showers you need to have at least 10 l/min each,
preferably 15. Your multihead one probably needs 15 - 20 for
results that make it worthwhile - so realistically 30 l/min for the
property is the minimum.


A Conventional system will take up too much room and require
reinforcement
in the loft area

If it turns out that you have an inadequate water flow, you will have
the choice of upgrading the supply from the road or of using a
conventional system with a roof tank and a pump.

If the flow is adequate, then this implies some sort of instant heat
solution.

For this, you could use a combi boiler, except that at the flow rate
you need, even a large one is going to fall short in cold weather and
you would be running the showers at lower than normal flow.
Two boilers could be used, but you need to watch out for the total
heat input requirement. A domestic gas meter (IIRC) is able to
deliver a supply for up to 62kW of heat equivalent and large combi
boilers are in the 28-30kW range, meaning nothing left for other
requirements. In this scenario, if you could split the requirement
appropriately, you might be able to go for one large and one small or
something.

A heat bank or thermal store are other approaches. These use a
cylinder of water heated by the boiler to 76-80 degrees. This is
then used to heat the water indirectly. You do have to find some
space for the cylinder, but a large roof tank is not needed - just a
small CH one. Some of these appliances have the header tank integral
with the cylinder.
These are able to deliver a lot more heat than a combi does (could be
as much as 200kW) so are less likely to run into difficulties when the
water is really cold. You can also arrange that the boiler comes on
and starts replenishing the stored heat as soon as it starts to be
used. However, the store cylinder does need to be adequately sized
to deliver the output heat for as long as is required. If you are
drawing stored energy at a 100 kW rate to heat the water and
replenishing from the boiler at only 30kW, the stored heat runs out
eventually and the system becomes, in effect, like a combi.





What options do I have? I have ordered a 4 bar pump but have been led to
believe that this is only suitable for a convential system as opposed to
a
combi or Megaflow system.

I would hold off on the pump until you have the rest figured out.



The house has 3 bathrooms, only one requires high pressure and high flow
rate, but I do need the ability to have at least 2 hot showers at the
same
time.

Not really a tall order I would think? What are my options?

You wouldn't think so, but this is asking a lot unless you have a good
flow of water, so that's the place to start.



Many thanks in advance...

P.S A water softner needs to be placed somewhere...

That also needs to be a high flow model. Most are these days, but it
will have something of a reducing effect on flow. Generally they are
quite small so finding a home should not be too big an issue.

It may be prudent to check the cold mains and then get a softener
supplier in to do a demo. Measure the rate that you get then and see
if it is enough.

8/10 Andy. I have taught you nearly well. You know it is always that last
bit that is elusive.

You flailed on the softener. He can use a phosphor descaling canister which
is only £45 from B&Q. And you failed on the combi. Many high flowrate
combi's can deliver the flowrate, and you don't know the flowrate yet. Keep
trying though. I will step in when you don't get it right.

Keep up the good work.


---
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On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:24:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



P.S A water softner needs to be placed somewhere...

That also needs to be a high flow model. Most are these days, but it
will have something of a reducing effect on flow. Generally they are
quite small so finding a home should not be too big an issue.

It may be prudent to check the cold mains and then get a softener
supplier in to do a demo. Measure the rate that you get then and see
if it is enough.



You flailed on the softener.

I didn't flail anything. Are you into flagellation?

He can use a phosphor descaling canister which
is only £45 from B&Q.

He could do, but it isn't a water softener, and that was what was
mentioned. As you well know a phosphor descaler only does that
specific job, it does not soften the water.

And you failed on the combi.

I didn't fail on anything because I wasn't taking any test.

Many high flowrate
combi's can deliver the flowrate, and you don't know the flowrate yet.

Precisely, which is why I left the issue open, simply pointing out
that the high flow rate that is likely to be required, may well be
beyond the abiliy of one combi, always assuming that the mains supply
can deliver the flow.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:07:29 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:24:58 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



P.S A water softner needs to be placed somewhere...

That also needs to be a high flow model. Most are these days, but it
will have something of a reducing effect on flow. Generally they are
quite small so finding a home should not be too big an issue.

It may be prudent to check the cold mains and then get a softener
supplier in to do a demo. Measure the rate that you get then and see
if it is enough.



You flailed on the softener.

I didn't flail anything. Are you into flagellation?

He can use a phosphor descaling canister which
is only £45 from B&Q.

He could do, but it isn't a water softener, and that was what was
mentioned. As you well know a phosphor descaler only does that
specific job, it does not soften the water.

And you failed on the combi.

I didn't fail on anything because I wasn't taking any test.

Many high flowrate
combi's can deliver the flowrate, and you don't know the flowrate yet.

Precisely, which is why I left the issue open, simply pointing out
that the high flow rate that is likely to be required, may well be
beyond the abiliy of one combi, always assuming that the mains supply
can deliver the flow.

Andy, you failed on both points, That is for sure. You said "For this, you
could use a combi boiler, except that at the flow rate you need, even a
large one is going to fall short in cold weather". This is not leaving
anything open at all.


Yes it is. It may be possible to use more than one.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:46:25 +0100, Daniel Loshak
wrote:

Help please....


I've got about 2 bar coming into my Victorian house in London. My new
multi-head shower needs at least 3 bar (not sure of the flow rate).

The more important point is what is the flow rate? You can have
perfectly good pressure (although this isn't brilliant), but a lousy
flow rate.

COuld you maybe measure the flow at a tap (normally the kitchen cold
tap). THis can easily be done by taking a vessel of known size
(e.g. a 10 litre bucket) and timing how long it takes to fill. You
can then do the sums to work out that flow rate in litres per minute.

It's pointless getting into discussions about different types of
system unless the flow is good enough to provide what you need.

To run two normal showers you need to have at least 10 l/min each,
preferably 15. Your multihead one probably needs 15 - 20 for
results that make it worthwhile - so realistically 30 l/min for the
property is the minimum.


A Conventional system will take up too much room and require
reinforcement
in the loft area

If it turns out that you have an inadequate water flow, you will have
the choice of upgrading the supply from the road or of using a
conventional system with a roof tank and a pump.

If the flow is adequate, then this implies some sort of instant heat
solution.

For this, you could use a combi boiler, except that at the flow rate
you need, even a large one is going to fall short in cold weather and
you would be running the showers at lower than normal flow.
Two boilers could be used, but you need to watch out for the total
heat input requirement. A domestic gas meter (IIRC) is able to
deliver a supply for up to 62kW of heat equivalent and large combi
boilers are in the 28-30kW range,

Large? They can be much larger than that.

If using two combi boilers one can supply heating for downstairs and one for
upstairs giving natural zoning and both zones on separate timeclocks.


---
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On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:09:34 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



For this, you could use a combi boiler, except that at the flow rate
you need, even a large one is going to fall short in cold weather and
you would be running the showers at lower than normal flow.
Two boilers could be used, but you need to watch out for the total
heat input requirement. A domestic gas meter (IIRC) is able to
deliver a supply for up to 62kW of heat equivalent and large combi
boilers are in the 28-30kW range,

Large? They can be much larger than that.

Typo, I meant 50kW.

Even at that heat input, e.g. a Micromat EC38 which has 46kW input for
DHW the flow rate for 35 degree temperature rise is only about 19
litres/minute, which is probably not enough for this application.



If using two combi boilers one can supply heating for downstairs and one for
upstairs giving natural zoning and both zones on separate timeclocks.


True, but two large boilers are going to require an upgraded gas
supply, I suspect. The issue is producing a large enough flow of hot
water to run a multihead and a normal shower simultaneously....

19-20 litres/min is probably not going to be enough.





---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:48:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



If using two combi boilers one can supply heating for downstairs and one
for
upstairs giving natural zoning and both zones on separate timeclocks.


True, but two large boilers are going to require an upgraded gas
supply, I suspect.

As long as it's below 62kW combined all is fine. You can go over this,
although they may not like it, as the meters have 100% overload.

Gas pipework still needs to be adequate, as does the rest of the
delivery system including main from the road, regulator etc.

I had understood that Transco installs larger versions of all of these
if the supply requirement exceeds 62kW. That being the case, do you
think that they would support the idea of exceeding this figure on a
domestic supply?



The issue is producing a large enough flow of hot
water to run a multihead and a normal shower simultaneously....

19-20 litres/min is probably not going to be enough.



Depends on flow.

That's ultimately going to be the case with any mains fed water
heating system.

Two combis is probably the best bet.

I think that that is questionnable. If a boiler running at 46kW
input can generate 18 litres/min, then selecting 62kW worth of combi
in two boilers would suggest a production rate of 24 litres/minute.
Even assuming that the water supply is up to it, this rate is only
barely adequate to run a multihead and a standard shower
simultaneously.




Divide and rule.
Cheap too, £800-900 to do the lot

Using the very cheapest products on the market, and not including
installation costs.

and have backup if one drops out.

That would involve extra pipework and valves.

Cheaper
than a a boiler with an unvented cylinder and a two zone heating system.


Maybe, but it would be a pointless saving if it was not fit for
purpose.




---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:04:47 +0100, "stuart noble"
wrote:


Andy Hall wrote in message ...
You flailed on the softener.

I didn't flail anything. Are you into flagellation?
I believe Mr.Dingley makes exceedingly good dungeon furniture.


That's worth knowing.

I wonder if we could commission him to make some stocks for the
village idiot?


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:04:47 +0100, "stuart noble"
wrote:


Andy Hall wrote in message
...
You flailed on the softener.

I didn't flail anything. Are you into flagellation?
I believe Mr.Dingley makes exceedingly good dungeon furniture.


That's worth knowing.

I wonder if we could commission him to make some stocks for the
village idiot?

What part do you play? The wench at the ale house?


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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:48:42 +0100, "IMM" wrote:



If using two combi boilers one can supply heating for downstairs and
one
for
upstairs giving natural zoning and both zones on separate timeclocks.


True, but two large boilers are going to require an upgraded gas
supply, I suspect.

As long as it's below 62kW combined all is fine. You can go over this,
although they may not like it, as the meters have 100% overload.

Gas pipework still needs to be adequate, as does the rest of the
delivery system including main from the road, regulator etc.

I had understood that Transco installs larger versions of all of these
if the supply requirement exceeds 62kW. That being the case, do you
think that they would support the idea of exceeding this figure on a
domestic supply?

I'm not sure as these *******s are out to make money not provided a service.
The old British Gas Corpn, certainly would. I can recall a house with three
100,000 Btu multi-points and the supply uprated at no extra cost to the
customer. It only required a larger meter.

The issue is producing a large enough flow of hot
water to run a multihead and a normal shower simultaneously....

19-20 litres/min is probably not going to be enough.

Depends on flow.

That's ultimately going to be the case with any mains fed water
heating system.

Two combis is probably the best bet.

I think that that is questionnable. If a boiler running at 46kW
input can generate 18 litres/min, then selecting 62kW worth of combi
in two boilers would suggest a production rate of 24 litres/minute.
Even assuming that the water supply is up to it, this rate is only
barely adequate to run a multihead and a standard shower
simultaneously.

But it never runs out of water!!!!

And always backup if one drops out. No very large space consuming and
expensive stored water cylinders for either: heat bank, unvented or vented
cylinders. Multi-head showers use a hell of a lot of water and people tend
to stay in them longer, especially people using them for therapeutic
reasons. A simple, cheap and effective solution.

Divide and rule.
Cheap too, £800-900 to do the lot

Using the very cheapest products on the market, and not including
installation costs.

That is decent mid priced kit. Buying two combi's will give a discount from
a dealer.

and have backup if one drops out.

That would involve extra pipework and valves.

Not it would not. The heads on the multi-head shower can be split between
combi's. If one combi drops out just don't use the cold head and the other
combi and head supplies.

Cheaper than a a boiler with an unvented
cylinder and a two zone heating system.

Maybe, but it would be a pointless saving if it was not fit for
purpose.

It should be.



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