Some features I would like to see in a heating instalation. Any comments?

1. A transparent settling chamber where debris would be trapped for removal
without draining the system.

2. A device to indicate the flow rate around the system.

3. A proper drainage valve with a pipe leading outside (to prevent carpet
stains).

4. A port to enable the introduction of additives.

5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.

--


--
John

We still talk of "Pulling the chain" and "Dialing the phone". How long does
it take to purge such outdated expressions?

In message , john
writes
Some features I would like to see in a heating instalation. Any comments?

1. A transparent settling chamber where debris would be trapped for removal
without draining the system.

Go tiger - make your first million


2. A device to indicate the flow rate around the system.

What are you waiting for ?



3. A proper drainage valve with a pipe leading outside (to prevent carpet
stains).

You mean like a well designed system would have?


4. A port to enable the introduction of additives.

Which would be used how many times in 10 years ?

and in a pressurised how are you going to introduce additives without
draining down - I use the radiator in the kitchen, works for me


5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.


Why ?

You want the boiler working at it's peak efficiency and the room temp
being controlled by TRVs

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.

... And you were doing so well up to this point

--
geoff

5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.


Why ?

You want the boiler working at it's peak efficiency and the room temp
being controlled by TRVs

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.

... And you were doing so well up to this point

--
geoff

5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.


Why ?


Sometimes my room stat shuts down very quickly and I loose the comfort of
having some gentle warmth being added to the rooms. I think I would prefer
slightly cooler radiators being on for longer - than a rapid heat up and
then no heat.


You want the boiler working at it's peak efficiency and the room temp
being controlled by TRVs

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.


... And you were doing so well up to this point

Surely just pressure washing is not enough - something to really shake the
deposits loose would be best.


John

In message , john
writes



5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.


Why ?


Sometimes my room stat shuts down very quickly and I loose the comfort of
having some gentle warmth being added to the rooms. I think I would prefer
slightly cooler radiators being on for longer - than a rapid heat up and
then no heat.

So the boiler has to anticipate the heat it has to put into each
radiator

... how is it going to achieve this ?



You want the boiler working at it's peak efficiency and the room temp
being controlled by TRVs

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.


... And you were doing so well up to this point

Surely just pressure washing is not enough

Your grounds for this assumption being ?

- something to really shake the
deposits loose would be best.

And how much do you reckon such a device is going to cost ?

You need to do a bit of a reality check

--
geoff

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and
sludge.


... And you were doing so well up to this point

Surely just pressure washing is not enough

Your grounds for this assumption being ?

- something to really shake the
deposits loose would be best.

And how much do you reckon such a device is going to cost ?

You need to do a bit of a reality check

--
geoff

Perhaps "ultrasonics" is OTT - but I really feel that putting some sort of
pulsation into the water would make it more effective to remove crud.


John

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:19:53 GMT, "john"
wrote:


Perhaps "ultrasonics" is OTT - but I really feel that putting some sort of
pulsation into the water would make it more effective to remove crud.


If it's implemented properly and treated with corrosion inhibitor
there should be little or no crud anyway



--

..andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:19:53 GMT, "john"
wrote:


Perhaps "ultrasonics" is OTT - but I really feel that putting some sort of
pulsation into the water would make it more effective to remove crud.


If it's implemented properly and treated with corrosion inhibitor
there should be little or no crud anyway



--

.andy

I have 8mm pipes and I didn't have the house from new.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:32:39 GMT, "john"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:19:53 GMT, "john"
wrote:


Perhaps "ultrasonics" is OTT - but I really feel that putting some sort of
pulsation into the water would make it more effective to remove crud.


If it's implemented properly and treated with corrosion inhibitor
there should be little or no crud anyway



--

.andy

I have 8mm pipes and I didn't have the house from new.

OK, so the thing to do is to clean them out. I've written up a method
several times where the filling loop connector is used and then
flushing is done at each radiator.

That way, crud is flushed out and not around the system.

Take the radiators off, and take them outside for a good flush through
with a pressure washer.
Take care because heating water and sludge stain carpets.

Once clean, it is easy to maintain the system clean.


--

..andy

john wrote:

2. A device to indicate the flow rate around the system.

There are plenty of in-line flow meters available - have a look on the
RS web site, for example.

5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.

Weather compensator - also readily available, often as part of more
comprehensive controls such as the Danfoss boiler energy managers.

--
Andy

In message , john
writes

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and
sludge.


... And you were doing so well up to this point

Surely just pressure washing is not enough

Your grounds for this assumption being ?

- something to really shake the
deposits loose would be best.

And how much do you reckon such a device is going to cost ?

You need to do a bit of a reality check

--
geoff

Perhaps "ultrasonics" is OTT - but I really feel that putting some sort of
pulsation into the water would make it more effective to remove crud.

Flushing out a radiator really isn't rocket science, it doesn't require
expensive equipment, and it works

kind of end of story, really

--
geoff

In message , john
writes

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:19:53 GMT, "john"
wrote:


Perhaps "ultrasonics" is OTT - but I really feel that putting some sort of
pulsation into the water would make it more effective to remove crud.


If it's implemented properly and treated with corrosion inhibitor
there should be little or no crud anyway



--

.andy

I have 8mm pipes and I didn't have the house from new.

SO, put some sludge buster in the system, run it for a couple of weeks,
flush out the system, refill with inhibitor

job done

--
geoff

john wrote:
Some features I would like to see in a heating instalation. Any comments?

1. A transparent settling chamber where debris would be trapped for removal
without draining the system.

3. A proper drainage valve with a pipe leading outside (to prevent carpet
stains).

combine those 2 and you'd just open the drain tap and the sludge comes
out. But you shouldnt be getting sludged up in the first place.



2. A device to indicate the flow rate around the system.

why?

4. A port to enable the introduction of additives.

a header tank?


5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.

outdoor stat, but it all costs money. Alternatively it can learn from
demand pattern, but nothings free.


6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.

very expensive way of solving an almost non-issue. And introducing
further issues.


We still talk of "Pulling the chain" and "Dialing the phone". How long does
it take to purge such outdated expressions?

judging by current usage, more than 2000 years.


NT

In article ,
john wrote:
Perhaps "ultrasonics" is OTT - but I really feel that putting some sort
of pulsation into the water would make it more effective to remove crud.

If you use the correct inhibitor and it isn't leaking so constantly
needing fresh water, there won't be any crud.

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:30:52 GMT, "john" wrote:

| Some features I would like to see in a heating instalation. Any comments?
|
| 1. A transparent settling chamber where debris would be trapped for removal
| without draining the system.
|
| 2. A device to indicate the flow rate around the system.
|
| 3. A proper drainage valve with a pipe leading outside (to prevent carpet
| stains).
|
| 4. A port to enable the introduction of additives.
|
| 5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
| thermal losses.
|
| 6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.

This will never happen to your average heating system, because your average
user would not know how to use them and would not want them, because the
system already costs a bomb and any additional cost in bells and whistles
is, to them, best avoided.

Thanks for the thread, as I am redoing my system ATM it give ideas for
additions. 1. a filter, with two stop valves is planned, 3 I have already
got in the underdrawing, 4. is planned. 5 and 6 I will have think about,
--
Dave Fawthrop dave hyphenologist co uk
Sick and tired of Junk Snail Mail?
Register with http://www.tpsonline.org.uk/mpsr/
IME it works :-)

effective to remove crud.

Flushing out a radiator really isn't rocket science, it doesn't require
expensive equipment, and it works

kind of end of story, really

--
geoff

I always remove my radiators when I decorate and flush them thoroughly. My
concern is the hard crud that builds up in the pipes. Incidentally, I have
the type of instalation that has flow and return at one end of the radiator.
I know it has its critics but it makes for a neater instalation and the
radiators are easy to remove. (the tube inside is nylon)

I made a flushing tube that I connect to the mains - I screw it into the top
bung of a radiator (I have a header tank rather than a filling loop)

John

In article ,
john wrote:
I always remove my radiators when I decorate and flush them thoroughly.
My concern is the hard crud that builds up in the pipes.

That would be in a hard water area? But there's not constant fresh water
going through, so surely it can't be as much of a problem as the hot water
system? And these don't get blocked with crud.

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:54:00 +0000, in uk.d-i-y Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 23:32:39 GMT, "john"
wrote:

I have 8mm pipes and I didn't have the house from new.

OK, so the thing to do is to clean them out. I've written up a method
several times where the filling loop connector is used and then
flushing is done at each radiator.

Hi Andy,

Sounds like one for the FAQ - can you give me a pointer to it?

Phil
The uk.d-i-y FAQ is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/
The Google uk.d-i-y archive is at http://tinyurl.com/65kwq
Remove NOSPAM from address to email me

In article .uk,
Ed Sirett writes:

6. You can get a rubber pad that goes in the end of your SDS drill on
hammer only setting to give the rads a good rattle; to help dislodge the
sludge when flushing.

You could probably use the leather pad on the end of your foot,
if the customer isn't watching... ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel

Ed Sirett wrote:

1. The Magnaclean unit comes part the way there. Any debris with about the
same density as water won't settle. With a pair of isolators (might be
included already) you would be able to clean it out whenever. Start clean
and stay clean is my feeling and ditch the gimicks.

Surely there's scope for a James Dyson-esque cyclonic sludge filter kind
of thing. a form of central-heating centrifuge or similar.

--
http://gymratz.co.uk - Best Gym Equipment & Bodybuilding Supplements UK.
http://trade-price-supplements.co.uk - TRADE PRICED SUPPLEMENTS for ALL!
http://fitness-equipment-uk.com - UK's No.1 Fitness Equipment Suppliers.
http://gymratz.co.uk/hot-seat.htm - Live web-cam! (sometimes)

On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:05:38 +0000, Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬) wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:

1. The Magnaclean unit comes part the way there. Any debris with about the
same density as water won't settle. With a pair of isolators (might be
included already) you would be able to clean it out whenever. Start clean
and stay clean is my feeling and ditch the gimicks.

Surely there's scope for a James Dyson-esque cyclonic sludge filter kind
of thing. a form of central-heating centrifuge or similar.

Frankly the magnaclean is more or less that with magnetic retention of
the debris.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

The message
from ;¬)" contains these
words:

1. The Magnaclean unit comes part the way there. Any debris with about the
same density as water won't settle. With a pair of isolators (might be
included already) you would be able to clean it out whenever. Start clean
and stay clean is my feeling and ditch the gimicks.

Surely there's scope for a James Dyson-esque cyclonic sludge filter kind
of thing. a form of central-heating centrifuge or similar.

Watched an engineer service my neighbours Zetor farm tractor recently.
Surprised to discover that had a centrifugal oil filter. He said it had
been invented by Mercedes. Perhaps that is where Dyson got the idea for
his vacuum cleaner.

--
Roger Chapman

In message , Roger
writes
The message
from ;¬)" contains these
words:

1. The Magnaclean unit comes part the way there. Any debris with about the
same density as water won't settle. With a pair of isolators (might be
included already) you would be able to clean it out whenever. Start clean
and stay clean is my feeling and ditch the gimicks.

Surely there's scope for a James Dyson-esque cyclonic sludge filter kind
of thing. a form of central-heating centrifuge or similar.

Watched an engineer service my neighbours Zetor farm tractor recently.
Surprised to discover that had a centrifugal oil filter. He said it had
been invented by Mercedes. Perhaps that is where Dyson got the idea for
his vacuum cleaner.

No, he stole the idea from a sawmill dust extractor IIRC


--
geoff

"john" wrote in message
...
Some features I would like to see in a heating instalation. Any comments?

1. A transparent settling chamber where debris would be trapped for
removal
without draining the system.

Alphas already have this - not trasparent.

2. A device to indicate the flow rate around the system.

Nice to have.

3. A proper drainage valve with a pipe leading outside (to prevent carpet
stains).

I always do this.

4. A port to enable the introduction of additives.

I always do this.

5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for the
thermal losses.

Some do this

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and sludge.

Maganclean does this.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:30:52 +0000, john wrote:

Some features I would like to see in a heating instalation. Any
comments?

1. A transparent settling chamber where debris would be trapped for
removal
without draining the system.

2. A device to indicate the flow rate around the system.

3. A proper drainage valve with a pipe leading outside (to prevent
carpet
stains).

4. A port to enable the introduction of additives.

5. A means of the boiler determining the optimum water temperature for
the
thermal losses.

6. Some form of ultrasonic cleaning system to remove sedement and
sludge.

--

1. The Magnaclean unit comes part the way there. Any debris with about the
same density as water won't settle. With a pair of isolators (might be
included already) you would be able to clean it out whenever. Start clean
and stay clean is my feeling and ditch the gimmicks.

How many change the inhibitor every 4 years? Few and far between, then
after 10 years problems. A filter helps enormously, as it it is there it is
cleaned on the service.

2. This would be a useful diagnostic tool but there are ways around it,
sometime as you operate a valve you can hear the effects. Once everything
is up and running right it would be a bit of a '9-day wonder'. Were you
thinking of something that would tell you
a) Flow direction
or
b) Rate of Flow aswell.
and why?

3. Standard best practice, if on both flow and return and over a gully.

4. The easiest is a ladder type towel rail. Many rads have 1/2" BSP plugs.

5. Keep moving the boiler thermostat down a bit until the boiler 'simmers'
for long periods and the house is warm enough. The next
generation of boilers - perhaps using proportional control rather than
simple on/off - together with external temperature sensing might address
this.

Some boilers already have this integrated.

6. You can get a rubber pad that goes in the end of your SDS drill on
hammer only setting to give the rads a good rattle; to help dislodge the
sludge when flushing.

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 23:05:38 +0000, Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬) wrote:

Ed Sirett wrote:

1. The Magnaclean unit comes part the way there. Any debris with about
the
same density as water won't settle. With a pair of isolators (might be
included already) you would be able to clean it out whenever. Start
clean
and stay clean is my feeling and ditch the gimicks.

Surely there's scope for a James Dyson-esque cyclonic sludge filter kind
of thing. a form of central-heating centrifuge or similar.

Frankly the magnaclean is more or less that with magnetic retention of
the debris.

Feedback so far is that they do what it says on the box. "All" debris is
caught, and the minute iron is caught by the magnet.

"john" wrote in message
...
Some features I would like to see in a heating instalation. Any comments?


I would recommend a modern programmable thermostat.

I have one drain valve, in the kitchen where a little water on the floor does
not matter. I connect a hose pipe to this to partially drain the system. The
main distribution is in the ground floor ceiling so this valve does no drain
many of the downstairs radiators. When I recently changed some of the downstairs
radiator valves, I did contemplate fitting drain valves but decided not to
bother. It is quite easy to losen the radiator valve to let water out, I would
not work above a fitted carpet anyway, and you could be sure that I could not
find a try to go under a drain valve anyway!

Fortunately I have not had to many problems with sludge.

--

Michael Chare