I need to do some electrical work in my house

Kitchen and bathroom (if it was advertised on TV I would have done the
bathroom and kitchen 2 years ago !)

Anyway I am where I am, and I found this
http://www.iee.org/events/courses/short/partp.cfm

In short, can a diyer do a course that would allow me to be 'a
competent person' considering I've no other electical qualifications at
all ?

Otherwise it's off to the yellow pages to find a sparky

On 29 Oct 2005 20:11:14 -0700, "
wrote:

I need to do some electrical work in my house

Kitchen and bathroom (if it was advertised on TV I would have done the
bathroom and kitchen 2 years ago !)

Anyway I am where I am, and I found this
http://www.iee.org/events/courses/short/partp.cfm

In short, can a diyer do a course that would allow me to be 'a
competent person' considering I've no other electical qualifications at
all ?

Being a "competent person" doesn't mean being competent. It means
being a member of a trade body whose subscription would preclude the
average d-i-yer.

--
Frank Erskine

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 08:39:22 +0000 (UTC), Frank Erskine
wrote:


Being a "competent person" doesn't mean being competent. It means
being a member of a trade body whose subscription would preclude the
average d-i-yer.

I know all these new rules and regulations I supposed to help in the
long run (pushing out cowboys / incompetents etc) but it is
frustrating for those of us who have demonstrated our 'competence'
over the years?

When I bought this 1897 house over 30 years ago I couldn't afford to
have things done so had to do them all myself. I removed gas lights
and bits of old rubber sheathed wiring, chimney breasts, concrete
kitchen floor etc etc.

I then fitted a new CU, wired (it wasn't 're-wiring' because there
hardly was any), ran new gas feeds etc etc. Everything I did I sought
advice on before I started .. and followed that advice .. just 'common
sense' in my mind?

30+ years later it's all still working .. but if I wanted to replace
any of it now I wouldn't be 'competent' ?

When the gas cooker, multipoint water heater, electric shower, washing
machine (etc etc) go wrong I fix them (where I can and assuming I can
get the parts etc), adain, in most cases just 'common sense'.

Shame there isn't a special 'D-I-Y'ers competents test' we could take
just to say 'we are 'ok' to do our own work ... the work most of us
have been doing anyway for many years at least?

Again, common sense would tell us if there was some special
(expensive) kit that was needed to finally test / measure / sign off
something we would get someone in to do so (or hire the kit etc)?

Ho hum ..

All the best ..

T i m

On 29 Oct 2005 20:11:14 -0700, "
wrote:


In short, can a diyer do a course that would allow me to be 'a
competent person' considering I've no other electical qualifications at
all ?

No. Part P has little or nothing to do with competence. It is
mainly a bureaucratic procedure designed to put one man companies
out of business as Mr Brown thinks they find it too easy to evade his
nice taxes.

No matter how competent you might be your company must be a member of
an "approved scheme", cost of this starts at about GBP700 I believe.
It is the company, not the individual, which is registered (in the
case of a sole trader they are the same of course) and which has to
pay the annual fees.

You therefore have a situation where a vastly experienced and well
qualified commercial electrician is not allowed to move a socket in
his kitchen but a spotty yoof with no experience, no qualification
and minimal training can be employed to do it for him so long as said
yoof works for an accredited company.




--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

On 30 Oct 2005 10:02:34 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Being a "competent person" doesn't mean being competent.

Actually, it means whatever the judge decides it means. Have you any
precedent for your interpretation.


How about the "Corgi approved" stars of Rogue Traders?

Hmm.

Well I certainly started a thing here !

Think of it from a first time buyers point of view (like me). Only just
being able to afford the mortgage, only just able to even afford the
flat ! And of course because its my first place, tons of work needs
doing.

Only now to find out pretty much the only thing I can do DIYing is to
paint ! Oh I forgot plastering is allowed, but that trully is a skill
which rules out DIYing it.

Back in my parents day, they could quite easy afford a house (infact on
a single salary) and do all the work themselves.

FINALLY
What I was hoping to do what get the hole house tested, after I've
finished. Is that ok as long as a certificate is produced ?

On 2005-10-30, Peter Parry wrote:
On 29 Oct 2005 20:11:14 -0700, "
wrote:


In short, can a diyer do a course that would allow me to be 'a
competent person' considering I've no other electical qualifications at
all ?

No. Part P has little or nothing to do with competence. It is
mainly a bureaucratic procedure designed to put one man companies
out of business as Mr Brown thinks they find it too easy to evade his
nice taxes.

No matter how competent you might be your company must be a member of
an "approved scheme", cost of this starts at about GBP700 I believe.
It is the company, not the individual, which is registered (in the
case of a sole trader they are the same of course) and which has to
pay the annual fees.

You therefore have a situation where a vastly experienced and well
qualified commercial electrician is not allowed to move a socket in
his kitchen but a spotty yoof with no experience, no qualification
and minimal training can be employed to do it for him so long as said
yoof works for an accredited company.


OK, I get the part about the _company_ being accredited and it's
employees can know bugger all about electrics ..... So, where can
I find an acredited company who'll "recruit" me so I can then work
for free on my home wiring?

--
.................................................. .........................
.. never trust a man who, when left alone ...... Pete Lynch .
.. in a room with a tea cosy ...... Marlow, England .
.. doesn't try it on (Billy Connolly) .....................................

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:57:52 GMT, Peter Lynch
wrote:

OK, I get the part about the _company_ being accredited and it's
employees can know bugger all about electrics ..... So, where can
I find an acredited company who'll "recruit" me so I can then work
for free on my home wiring?

For a wage of, say, (minus) 25 quid a lifetime?

I be prepared to bet it's going on. ;-))

DG

"Derek ^" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 15:57:52 GMT, Peter Lynch
wrote:

OK, I get the part about the _company_ being accredited and it's
employees can know bugger all about electrics ..... So, where can
I find an acredited company who'll "recruit" me so I can then work
for free on my home wiring?

For a wage of, say, (minus) 25 quid a lifetime?

I be prepared to bet it's going on. ;-))

DG

Beg to differ with everyones opinion of Part P, but the quality of the
installer work is assessed and the technical abilities of the supervisors is
also assessed so that they can perform the Qualifying Supervisors role. This
person ( and this is the weak bit) is responsobile for ensuring that the
quality is maintained.

I have got to say however, I am not in favour of this scheme because it is
difficult to enforce. What should have been done is prevent the sale of
electrical items to the general public unless the purchaser is licensed,
same for gas, but this goverment has not got the balls to do that.

I to am frustrated with having to pay to register for something I have been
doing for 15 years.

Regards

Steve Dawson

wrote:

I need to do some electrical work in my house

Kitchen and bathroom (if it was advertised on TV I would have done the
bathroom and kitchen 2 years ago !)

Anyway I am where I am, and I found this
http://www.iee.org/events/courses/short/partp.cfm

In short, can a diyer do a course that would allow me to be 'a
competent person' considering I've no other electical qualifications at
all ?

The catch would seem to be:

"Please note that contractors must also register with a scheme provider,
and meet the Electrotechnical Assessment Scheme requirements, to be
assessed as "competent enterprises". Conditions include electrical
competence qualifications (eg to City and Guilds 2381 with suitable
experience and training) and possession of sufficient public liability
insurance."

Otherwise it's off to the yellow pages to find a sparky

Roughly translated as: "It was all done before April... honest guv" ;-)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote:

FINALLY
What I was hoping to do what get the hole house tested, after I've
finished. Is that ok as long as a certificate is produced ?

If you want to do it by the book, it may be worth talking to the
building control people and saying that you want to complete a full
rewire over a period of time. You may find that you can submit one
building notice to cover all the work. Different LAs seem to have very
different approaches to this at this time - so what happens in one area
does not reflect on another.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
wrote:

snip

The catch would seem to be:

"Please note that contractors must also register with a scheme
provider,
and meet the Electrotechnical Assessment Scheme requirements, to be
assessed as "competent enterprises". Conditions include electrical
competence qualifications (eg to City and Guilds 2381 with suitable
experience and training) and possession of sufficient public
liability
insurance."

Otherwise it's off to the yellow pages to find a sparky

Roughly translated as: "It was all done before April... honest guv"
;-)


I wonder just how many lethal installations Part P(iss) will cause,
not through the 'cowboy' but just the fact that law abiding people
will not have work done that they can't now afford?

Stephen Dawson wrote:

What should have been done is prevent the sale of electrical items to
the general public unless the purchaser is licensed, same for gas,
but this goverment has not got the balls to do that.

Oh no - that would lead to even worse bodging, if proper materials
weren't readily available. And anyway there's no restriction on the
sale of gas parts to the general public, is there?

--
Andy

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

I wonder just how many lethal installations Part P(iss) will cause,
not through the 'cowboy' but just the fact that law abiding people
will not have work done that they can't now afford?

That is the saddest thing about the whole fiasco really. As with much
nanny legislation of this type, it will end up causing the problem it
stated as its objective to cure!

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
eenews.net...

I wonder just how many lethal installations Part P(iss) will cause,
not through the 'cowboy' but just the fact that law abiding people
will not have work done that they can't now afford?



I know someone with 37 sockets in their room of which only three are hard
wired.
I was asked if I could wire in some new ones and I refused (even though it
easy) so they still have lots of 4 ways on the floor.

I will blame the ODPM if anything happens.

"dave" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:03:39 GMT, "dennis@home"

wrote:

snip

I will blame the ODPM if anything happens.

Just what DID Prescot do in the docks before before becoming DPM?
Must have been
highly technical and skilled. PartP must be a Piece of Pi** for
him!

He didn't do anything in the 'docks', AIUI he was a *SHIPS* steward
[1], the problem is not so much Prescot but the fact that he doesn't
have a real HMG position (being on the left of the Tor... sorry
Labour Party) and thus he is thinking up solutions and then trying to
find a problem to use them on...

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:21:09 UTC, dave wrote:

Just what DID Prescot do in the docks before before becoming DPM? Must have been
highly technical and skilled. PartP must be a Piece of Pi** for him!

Union official.

Figures. But it was on ship, AFAIR.
--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

On 30 Oct 2005 22:07:31 GMT, (Huge) wrote:

Andy Wade writes:
Stephen Dawson wrote:

What should have been done is prevent the sale of electrical items to
the general public unless the purchaser is licensed, same for gas,
but this goverment has not got the balls to do that.

Oh no - that would lead to even worse bodging, if proper materials
weren't readily available. And anyway there's no restriction on the
sale of gas parts to the general public, is there?

Nope.

Signs in B&Q are designed to give the impression that ALL gas work
MUST be done by CORGI-registered installers.

Further signs say that B&Q staff are not allowed to give advice on gas
work - which, I suppose, is a Good Thing.

What I do with the gas or electric installations in my premises are no
business of anybody (including HMG) else, so long as I don't blow up
the neighbours' houses. An Englishman's home....

--
Frank Erskine

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:36:13 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

He didn't do anything in the 'docks', AIUI he was a *SHIPS* steward
[1], the problem is not so much Prescot but the fact that he doesn't
have a real HMG position (being on the left of the Tor... sorry
Labour Party) and thus he is thinking up solutions and then trying to
find a problem to use them on...

Which is exactly what this "Government" is good at - making
legislation which either cannot be enforced or has the opposite effect
to what it is intended to do.

--
Frank Erskine

Huge wrote:

And what *should* have been done is for Fatty 2 Jags to mind his own damn
business.

I have no objection to BS7671 being called up in the building regs -
that bit makes sense. All the rest of the ******** however is a complete
farce.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:36:47 +0000 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

And what *should* have been done is for Fatty 2 Jags to mind his own damn
business.

I have no objection to BS7671 being called up in the building regs -
that bit makes sense.

That has been the case in Scotland for a very long time and it is
indeed sensible.

All the rest of the ******** however is a complete
farce.

I think the problem down south was either that the sensible system
in Scotland was gold plated, or the system was set up by
administrators. The latter think that pieces of paper are useful.
Anyone who has seen the CORGI scheme knows that pieces of paper are
not useful.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:36:13 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:

He didn't do anything in the 'docks', AIUI he was a *SHIPS*
steward
[1], the problem is not so much Prescot but the fact that he
doesn't
have a real HMG position (being on the left of the Tor... sorry
Labour Party) and thus he is thinking up solutions and then trying
to
find a problem to use them on...

Which is exactly what this "Government" is good at - making
legislation which either cannot be enforced or has the opposite
effect
to what it is intended to do.


Yes, but there is a difference, it's one thing making 'bad law' were
there *is* a problem to be solved [1], it's something quite different
to make bad law were there is *no* problem to solve...

[1] which although not good, it is defensible

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:09:08 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


Yes, but there is a difference, it's one thing making 'bad law' were
there *is* a problem to be solved [1], it's something quite different
to make bad law were there is *no* problem to solve...

The ex ships sandwich server managed to go one step further with Part
P - he created a bad law which made a very small problem worse - by
their own calculations Part P will kill more than it will save.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

wrote:
On 30 Oct,
Peter Parry wrote:



Competency has nothing to do with it.

That is well shown the original installation here. Several DANGEROUS faults,
and a sticker on the CU about regular testing issued by a member of NIC/IEC
who had installed the system.


.... and the mistaken fact that the NICEIC is the authority on this is
compunded by RoSPA who point to the NICEIC site for their references on
electrical safety at
http://www.rospa.com/productsafety/a...electrical.htm
Even they don't acknowledge that NICEIC is the only organisation. No
mention at all of the IEE who define the wiring regs.

Peter Parry wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 09:09:08 -0000, ":::Jerry::::"
wrote:


Yes, but there is a difference, it's one thing making 'bad law' were
there *is* a problem to be solved [1], it's something quite different
to make bad law were there is *no* problem to solve...

The ex ships sandwich server managed to go one step further with Part
P - he created a bad law which made a very small problem worse - by
their own calculations Part P will kill more than it will save.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Ah, but then we will obviously need *more* legislation (got to keep the
bureaucrats employed some how), banning the sale of electrical
components for DIY and mandating regular safety checks on household
electrics and anything else you can think of. Think of the lives it
will save!

MBQ

(Huge) wrote:

"Bob Eager" writes:
On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 22:21:09 UTC, dave wrote:

Just what DID Prescot do in the docks before before becoming DPM? Must have been
highly technical and skilled. PartP must be a Piece of Pi** for him!

Union official.

Figures. But it was on ship, AFAIR.

He was a steward.

Yes, and he definitely worked in the bar ;-)


--

"Huge" wrote in message
...

Only 37? There are 48 in here. Although 12 of them are on the UPS. And
only
three 12 way Olson blocks.

They're all appropriately fused, so what's the problem?

wear and tear mainly.
stuff on trailing flex is not as robust as stuff wired in on walls.

:::Jerry:::: wrote:

[1], the problem is not so much Prescot but the fact that he doesn't
have a real HMG position (being on the left of the Tor... sorry
Labour Party) and thus he is thinking up solutions and then trying to
find a problem to use them on...

More likely he dosn't have the nous to knock down the proposals his
civil servants and a favoured lobbyists put in front of him. The labour
party is full of people who have never done anything but politics,
committees and agendas and minutes and conferences and and... it's
their entire way of life and their response to any of it not working is
just more of the same control freakery.


--
David Clark

$message_body_include ="PLES RING IF AN RNSR IS REQIRD"

"DJC" wrote in message
o.uk...
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

[1], the problem is not so much Prescot but the fact that he
doesn't
have a real HMG position (being on the left of the Tor... sorry
Labour Party) and thus he is thinking up solutions and then
trying to
find a problem to use them on...

More likely he dosn't have the nous to knock down the proposals his
civil servants and a favoured lobbyists put in front of him. The
labour
party is full of people who have never done anything but politics,
committees and agendas and minutes and conferences and and... it's
their entire way of life and their response to any of it not
working is
just more of the same control freakery.


LOL, you should try reading some of the Bio's of Tory MP's before you
start down that path...

In article ,
DJC wrote:
The labour party is full of people who have never done anything but
politics, committees and agendas and minutes and conferences and
and... it's their entire way of life and their response to any of it
not working is just more of the same control freakery.

You've just described near *any* politician.

--
*I never drink anything stronger than gin before breakfast *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 31 Oct 2005 05:14:18 -0800 someone who may be "Andrew"
wrote this:-

No mention at all of the IEE who define the wiring regs.

Though their regulations are fine, the IEE hasn't exactly covered
itself with glory on this issue and I gather their members are not
pleased.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

David Hansen wrote:
On 31 Oct 2005 05:14:18 -0800 someone who may be "Andrew"
wrote this:-

No mention at all of the IEE who define the wiring regs.

Though their regulations are fine, the IEE hasn't exactly covered
itself with glory on this issue and I gather their members are not
pleased.


You can say that again. It's the nearest I've ever come to resigning my
membership. Although I do often look at the hundred odd quid a year
fees and wonder what I get for it.

Andrew

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:38:37 GMT, "dennis@home" wrote:


"Huge" wrote in message
...

Only 37? There are 48 in here. Although 12 of them are on the UPS. And
only
three 12 way Olson blocks.

They're all appropriately fused, so what's the problem?

wear and tear mainly.
stuff on trailing flex is not as robust as stuff wired in on walls.

If you screw the Olson block to the wall does it become 'fixed' and then come under Part P?

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

He didn't do anything in the 'docks', AIUI he was a *SHIPS* steward

Johnny Twojags was the heavy that went round demanding money with menaces,
making sure that everyone was part of his union, whether they liked it or
not. I think he called it "collecting union dues" or somesuch.

--
AJL

On Wed, 2 Nov 2005 16:33:23 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote:

In article ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

He didn't do anything in the 'docks', AIUI he was a *SHIPS* steward

Johnny Twojags was the heavy that went round demanding money with menaces,
making sure that everyone was part of his union, whether they liked it or
not.

So no change there then...

"Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)" wrote in message
. ..
In article
ws.net,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:

He didn't do anything in the 'docks', AIUI he was a *SHIPS*
steward

Johnny Twojags was the heavy that went round demanding money with
menaces,
making sure that everyone was part of his union, whether they liked
it or
not. I think he called it "collecting union dues" or somesuch.


A bit like those employers / business organisations then, like
electrical installers associations or Corgi (trying to keep
on-topic...) for example?...

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:56:19 +0000, Nobody
wrote:

How about the "Corgi approved" stars of Rogue Traders?

But at least the Guild Of Master Craftsmen publish some good books!

Some associations are more thorough than others.

In England And Wales you can send a kitchen fitter on a 2 week course
to be a 'compotent person' under the England and Wales Building regs.

When I went to become a certifier of construction (to make it possible
for me to sign of my own building work in Scotland) i had to be
assessed by SELECT (The Electrical Contractors Assoc Of Scotland)

The assesment was very thorough, I was asked for my PASSPORT as proof
of ID, then my National Insurance Number. (they looked up the UK
register of electricians to check if I had any qualifications and if
they were up to date)

I had to do a few more courses to bring my regs upto date (did a regs
course 5 and a half years ago- had to do another as I needed one every
5 years)

The chap looked at 3 of my jobs with a fine tooth comb and asked lots
of electrical questions.

This is only to join the Electrical Contractors Assoc (of Scotland) -
SELECT.

The building regs are different up here but the ECA (in England and
Wales) has similar thorough membership criteria.

I also neede to prove insurances (public and employers liability) and
show my trade certificates.

Some associations have less thorough membership criteria, so it is
useful to check things first.

Some associations also have backup (if I go out of business they will
get a member company to take over ant arranged works at the agreed
price)

On 6 Nov 2005 12:21:26 -0800, "baldelectrician"
wrote:

When I went to become a certifier of construction (to make it possible
for me to sign of my own building work in Scotland) i had to be
assessed by SELECT (The Electrical Contractors Assoc Of Scotland)

You can be as competent as you like - it has nothing to do with Part
P. Indeed the man who wrote the British Standard on electrical
installations is now unable to legally install a telephone socket in
his kitchen - however a work experience oik can do it for him as long
as the company the oik works for has paid their fees.

--
Peter Parry.
http://www.wpp.ltd.uk/

Peter Parry wrote:
You can be as competent as you like - it has nothing to do with Part
P. Indeed the man who wrote

as a matter of interest...

the British Standard on electrical
installations

presumably you mean the IEE wiring regs (BS7671)?

Who is that?


is now unable to legally install a telephone socket in
his kitchen

not an ex-IEE employee by any chance??