Well, may not be OT after all. Here goes...

I moved to a detached house last year, and the back garden is backing to a
long strip of woods that is protected by Scottish Heritage, and hence cannot
be touched. The trees are all around 30m high or so.

Unfortunately when the Sky installers came to have a look a few months ago
they very quickly established that the dish should point straight at one of
the trees, and there was no chance of getting any decent signal. We gave up
on the venture at the time, but after a few months of Freeview (appalling!,
but that's another story), we decided to try and see if there is anything
that can be done about it.

Putting the dish at the top of our chimney will still only reach around 80%
of the height of the (very dense) trees. Also, despite our garden being is
very big, all of it is "covered" by the trees, so no chance of positioning
the dish anywhere.

Oh, and NTL serve houses less than 100m from ours, but have no intention of
covering our street...

Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a situation like this one?
Should we simply admit defeat and move on?

JoeJoe wrote:
Well, may not be OT after all. Here goes...

I moved to a detached house last year, and the back garden is backing to a
long strip of woods that is protected by Scottish Heritage, and hence cannot
be touched. The trees are all around 30m high or so.
snip
Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a situation like this one?
Should we simply admit defeat and move on?

You mention that the house ridge gets to 80% of the tree height.
(You do understand that the satellite is not where the dish appears to
point?).
How far behind the house in the northwest direction does your property
extend?
Might it be possible to place it behind the house, either on a structure,
or a pole?

In message ,
JoeJoe writes
Well, may not be OT after all. Here goes...

I moved to a detached house last year, and the back garden is backing to a
long strip of woods that is protected by Scottish Heritage, and hence cannot
be touched. The trees are all around 30m high or so.

Unfortunately when the Sky installers came to have a look a few months ago
they very quickly established that the dish should point straight at one of
the trees, and there was no chance of getting any decent signal. We gave up
on the venture at the time, but after a few months of Freeview (appalling!,
but that's another story), we decided to try and see if there is anything
that can be done about it.

Putting the dish at the top of our chimney will still only reach around 80%
of the height of the (very dense) trees. Also, despite our garden being is
very big, all of it is "covered" by the trees, so no chance of positioning
the dish anywhere.

Oh, and NTL serve houses less than 100m from ours, but have no intention of
covering our street...

Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a situation like this one?
Should we simply admit defeat and move on?

Yeah - I had the same problem with a microwave link in Lombok

.... slipped some locals some cash to chop the tree down

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to
obstruct the signal

--
geoff

raden wrote:

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to
obstruct the signal

IIRC they are much lower than that in the sky - I think most of the
usual ones used for DSB in the uk reside between 20 and 26 degrees
elevation.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:18:51 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

IIRC they are much lower than that in the sky - I think most of the
usual ones used for DSB in the uk reside between 20 and 26 degrees
elevation.

Elevation is of that order, they are higher in the sky than most
minidishes make them appear as the LNB is offset on a minidish. The
azimuth is roughly where the sun is about 1015 GMT (1115 BST), or
about 23deg East of South.

The OP won't have long to wait to the next time the sun appears to be
in the same place in the sky and kills sat reception for a few
minutes. Anywhere that is sunlit at that time is a place that dish
could see the satellite. The exact times can be found via web based
calculators given your precise location and the bird of interest, or a
guide from static pages. Try google...

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.com...
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:18:51 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

IIRC they are much lower than that in the sky - I think most of
the
usual ones used for DSB in the uk reside between 20 and 26 degrees
elevation.

Elevation is of that order, they are higher in the sky than most
minidishes make them appear as the LNB is offset on a minidish. The
azimuth is roughly where the sun is about 1015 GMT (1115 BST), or
about 23deg East of South.

The OP won't have long to wait to the next time the sun appears to
be
in the same place in the sky and kills sat reception for a few
minutes. Anywhere that is sunlit at that time is a place that dish
could see the satellite. [snip]

This is by far the easiest approach.
Regardless of the time of year the azimuth is more or less the same,
so you could look today and see where the sun is striking your
property at 11 am (BST), even though the sun will be too high for
the correct elevation. It will give you some idea, especially if
there any breaks in the tree screen.

You will have to wait until 12 October or 01 March to get the right
elevation. (unless you can you estimate how high the sun will be in
October)

The exact times for sunouts are he
http://www.noctua.demon.co.uk/sunouts/sunouts.html
Select a nearby city with the similar longitude.
Table for Glasgow:
http://www.noctua.demon.co.uk/sunout...w_sunouts.html

Sky is on the Astra 2A-D satellite.

But you don't need to be spot on just to choose a dish location.
This approach is no use for aligning the dish.

I found it helpful to take a number of photos of the house on the
correct day and time for this and other satellites for future
reference.

Roger

In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 03:18:51 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

IIRC they are much lower than that in the sky - I think most of the
usual ones used for DSB in the uk reside between 20 and 26 degrees
elevation.

Elevation is of that order, they are higher in the sky than most
minidishes make them appear as the LNB is offset on a minidish. The
azimuth is roughly where the sun is about 1015 GMT (1115 BST), or
about 23deg East of South.

The OP won't have long to wait to the next time the sun appears to be
in the same place in the sky and kills sat reception for a few
minutes. Anywhere that is sunlit at that time is a place that dish
could see the satellite. The exact times can be found via web based
calculators given your precise location and the bird of interest, or a
guide from static pages. Try google...

How does the sun kill the received signal ?

--
geoff

raden wrote:
In message om, Dave
Liquorice writes

The OP won't have long to wait to the next time the sun appears to be
in the same place in the sky and kills sat reception for a few
minutes. Anywhere that is sunlit at that time is a place that dish
could see the satellite. The exact times can be found via web based
calculators given your precise location and the bird of interest, or
a guide from static pages. Try google...

How does the sun kill the received signal ?

The Sun puts out more than just light and heat, it puts out radio noise over
a very wide range. So when it lines up behind the satellite it swamps the
(very very weak) signal it's sending out and the receiver gets 'dazzled'.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
raden wrote:

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to obstruct
the signal

IIRC they are much lower than that in the sky - I think most of the usual
ones used for DSB in the uk reside between 20 and 26 degrees elevation.

That would be impossible.
Geostationary satellites have to be above the equator.

So for 52N (middle of the UK) it would have to be at 38 degree above the
horizontal.

You may be confused by the dishes which are generally offset parabolas so do
not point towards the satellite.
IIRC you they have a scale on them which tells you the angle of the disk to
the horizontal which was about 25 degrees.

dennis@home wrote:

Geostationary satellites have to be above the equator.

So for 52N (middle of the UK) it would have to be at 38 degree above the
horizontal.

As a matter of interest, how do you get the angle from the above data?

--
Timothy Murphy
e-mail (80k only): tim /at/ birdsnest.maths.tcd.ie
tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366
s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 13:57:34 +0100, Timothy Murphy
wrote:

dennis@home wrote:

Geostationary satellites have to be above the equator.

So for 52N (middle of the UK) it would have to be at 38 degree above the
horizontal.

As a matter of interest, how do you get the angle from the above data?


The birds are in a constellation X miles above the Equator on a
certain bearing. In the case of the Astra 2 group, it is 28.2 degrees
east of south as you look south - i.e. they are to the west of the
meridian.

If you work from these heights and bearings and curvature of the
Earth, the angle above the horizon can be calculated.


Further data on www.lyngsat.com






--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Timothy Murphy" wrote in message
...
dennis@home wrote:

Geostationary satellites have to be above the equator.

So for 52N (middle of the UK) it would have to be at 38 degree above the
horizontal.

As a matter of interest, how do you get the angle from the above data?

Its simple trig. 8-)

Unfortunately I forgot to allow for the nearness (in astronomical terms) of
the satellite so there is an error of about 5 degrees in what I said.

So they are about 33 degrees altitude.

On Sunday, in article
"Timothy Murphy" wrote:

dennis@home wrote:

Geostationary satellites have to be above the equator.

So for 52N (middle of the UK) it would have to be at 38 degree above the
horizontal.

As a matter of interest, how do you get the angle from the above data?

Schoolboy spherical trigonometry. (Although he's wrong, of course; as he
later admits, he'd forgotten about the declination.)

BTW, the OP would get much more accurate information from
news:rec.video.satellite.europe or even news:alt.satellite.tv.europe

--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
"I don't think you're in the top class when it comes to thinking
- I suspect I could wade through the depths of your mind and not
wet my ankles." Peter Thomas, in news:uk.telecom 24-Jul-2005

On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 11:04:39 GMT, "dennis@home"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
raden wrote:

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to obstruct
the signal

IIRC they are much lower than that in the sky - I think most of the usual
ones used for DSB in the uk reside between 20 and 26 degrees elevation.

That would be impossible.
Geostationary satellites have to be above the equator.

So for 52N (middle of the UK) it would have to be at 38 degree above the
horizontal.


The further east or west you go in satellite position, the lower the
elevation and towards the fringes the change is dramatic. At 68.5E,
elevation here is barely above the horizontal (in fact being offset,
my dish faces slightly downwards) and there are some European beams
from the sat at that position that I can receive. Most European public
broadcasting satellites use positions from 13E to 28.2E and the
elevation for these varies from 30 to 26 degrees. Some Scandinavian
channels use 1 deg W, which for me is about 30 deg. Feeds and other
channels are receivable in the UK for sats from 68.5E to around 58W.

The rate of change of elevation accelerates the further E or W the
dish travels and to align a motorised dish requires careful adjustment
of elevation, declination and southern alignment. It can while away a
few hours!

John

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , JoeJoe
writes
Well, may not be OT after all. Here goes...

I moved to a detached house last year, and the back garden is backing to a
long strip of woods that is protected by Scottish Heritage, and hence
cannot
be touched. The trees are all around 30m high or so.

Unfortunately when the Sky installers came to have a look a few months ago
they very quickly established that the dish should point straight at one
of
the trees, and there was no chance of getting any decent signal. We gave
up
on the venture at the time, but after a few months of Freeview
(appalling!,
but that's another story), we decided to try and see if there is anything
that can be done about it.

Putting the dish at the top of our chimney will still only reach around
80%
of the height of the (very dense) trees. Also, despite our garden being is
very big, all of it is "covered" by the trees, so no chance of positioning
the dish anywhere.

Oh, and NTL serve houses less than 100m from ours, but have no intention
of
covering our street...

Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a situation like this
one?
Should we simply admit defeat and move on?

Yeah - I had the same problem with a microwave link in Lombok

... slipped some locals some cash to chop the tree down

Don't think that would work, as the conservation area is approximately 20m
deep, so will need to chop around 4-5 trees.

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to obstruct
the signal

That is exactly the case. The trees are HUGE, and the back garden is only
about 10m deep, with the 1st row of trees literally on he boundary.

I was thinking about a pole myself (will need to check local planning regs.
I suppose), but it will have to be VERY high.

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 06:59:05 +0100, "JoeJoe" wrote:


"raden" wrote in message
...

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to obstruct
the signal

That is exactly the case. The trees are HUGE, and the back garden is only
about 10m deep, with the 1st row of trees literally on he boundary.

I was thinking about a pole myself (will need to check local planning regs.
I suppose), but it will have to be VERY high.


The elevation for the satellite(s) that Sky use is around 26 degrees,
depending on your location. Don't use the dish face as a rough guide
as it faces a much lower point than the satellite position (because of
its offset design).

A rough and ready check is to cut an angle out of A4 card and tape a
small spirit level to the horizontal side. You can then sight up the
card edge to see if there is clearance. If the result is not clear,
you will need a more professional check as this has quite a margin of
error unless you can clamp it to be horizontal while sighting.

Google on Astra elevation to find online calculators.

John

JoeJoe wrote:
Don't think that would work, as the conservation area is approximately
20m deep
[...]
and the back garden is only about 10m deep, with the 1st row of trees
literally on he boundary.

Any possibility of negotiating to put the dish at the far side of the
trees? 30m is a bit longer than most domestic cable runs, but should
still be do-able.

Conservation officials tend to be sensitive about visual impact, and
about damage to the trees or the land, so those are the points you'd
need to convince them about.

Well... if there are no obstructions at the far side of the trees, you
may be able to find a spot where the dish could be close to ground level
and quite far back into the trees. The dish could be almost invisible
from the far side. It would also be very easy to make a short mounting
post that simply sits on a weighted base.

Alternatively, just do it. Unless they turn up regularly to give the
trees a hug, they'll never even know... and if you do no harm, they
might even prefer it that way.


--
Ian White

In message ,
JoeJoe writes
Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a situation like this
one?
Should we simply admit defeat and move on?

Yeah - I had the same problem with a microwave link in Lombok

... slipped some locals some cash to chop the tree down

Don't think that would work, as the conservation area is approximately 20m
deep, so will need to chop around 4-5 trees.

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to obstruct
the signal

That is exactly the case. The trees are HUGE, and the back garden is only
about 10m deep, with the 1st row of trees literally on he boundary.

I was thinking about a pole myself (will need to check local planning regs.
I suppose), but it will have to be VERY high.

And strong to take a dish in high winds, unless it's a wire mesh one

--
geoff

On Sunday, in article

"JoeJoe" wrote:

Don't think that would work, as the conservation area is approximately 20m
deep, so will need to chop around 4-5 trees.

I would find it very surprising if the trees really were high enough to
get in the way of the signal. I don't know where the sky satellites are
(not being a subscriber) but it must be at something like 40 degrees. It
would be some pretty monster trees or very close to the house to obstruct
the signal

That is exactly the case. The trees are HUGE, and the back garden is only
about 10m deep, with the 1st row of trees literally on he boundary.

I was thinking about a pole myself (will need to check local planning regs.
I suppose), but it will have to be VERY high.

The thread seems to have dissolved into the minutiae of how the
calculations are effected; I'm going to try to get back to your original
query.

Facts, as you've provided them (I think, CMIIW):

House faces north(ish), so dish for $ky needs to look "down the back
garden".
Back garden is only 10m deep.
Immediately on the boundary of the garden grows a bank of trees, of
approx 30m height.
You are "somewhere in Scotland".

Earlier this year, the regulars in rec.video.satellite.europe performed
the calculations for a lady living near Sanquar, and many of us were
surprised to find that the Astra2 constellation is as low as 20deg from
that far north and west.

Assuming your situation is similar (you'll be better off if you're
further east, or south) then a pole is going to be out of the question;
for the signal to clear the 30m trees from only 10m away, the pole is
going to have to be over 26m high. (30 - 10tan20) It will be impossible
to make such a tall pole stable enough for the dish not to move around
(which would be fatal to getting a signal).

Even if you could somehow put the pole on the *front* of your property,
this might add only, what, another 10m distance from the trees? So the
pole would still have to be nearly 23m tall (30 - 20tan20).

Of course, perhaps you have a 40m long *front* garden :-) In which case
an 8 metre pole (30 - (40+10+10)tan20) might work out for you.

Thinking laterally, is it possible to purchase/rent a square metre of
land the *other* side of the conservation area? Assuming no other
obstructions to line-of-sight, you could have the dish on a patio mount
there, and run the feeder cable back through the woods (perhaps you ought
to ask Scottish Forestry for a wayleave, *and* bury it in duct) to your
house: 30m of feeder is no problem provided the best quality is used.

--
Brian {Hamilton Kelly}
"I don't think you're in the top class when it comes to thinking
- I suspect I could wade through the depths of your mind and not
wet my ankles." Peter Thomas, in news:uk.telecom 24-Jul-2005

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:43:43 +0100, "JoeJoe" wrote:

Well, may not be OT after all. Here goes...

I moved to a detached house last year, and the back garden is backing to a
long strip of woods that is protected by Scottish Heritage, and hence cannot
be touched. The trees are all around 30m high or so.

Unfortunately when the Sky installers came to have a look a few months ago
they very quickly established that the dish should point straight at one of
the trees, and there was no chance of getting any decent signal. We gave up
on the venture at the time, but after a few months of Freeview (appalling!,
but that's another story), we decided to try and see if there is anything
that can be done about it.

Putting the dish at the top of our chimney will still only reach around 80%
of the height of the (very dense) trees. Also, despite our garden being is
very big, all of it is "covered" by the trees, so no chance of positioning
the dish anywhere.

Oh, and NTL serve houses less than 100m from ours, but have no intention of
covering our street...

Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a situation like this one?
Should we simply admit defeat and move on?


Do you have any neighbours who could put the dish up, then run a cable
somehow ?

A guyed tower next to the trees will not cost you an arm and a leg,
but maybe just an arm, the sort of thing they use for windmills.

Rick

On Sat, 6 Aug 2005 23:43:43 +0100, "JoeJoe" wrote:

Well, may not be OT after all. Here goes...

I moved to a detached house last year, and the back garden is backing to a
long strip of woods that is protected by Scottish Heritage, and hence cannot
be touched. The trees are all around 30m high or so.

Lucky you!

Unfortunately when the Sky installers came to have a look a few months ago
they very quickly established that the dish should point straight at one of
the trees, and there was no chance of getting any decent signal.

Lucky you!

Try living without it for a few months to see if survival is possible


cheers,
Pete.