"Steve" wrote in message
...
My mate's 16-year old son is going to do some work for us before he starts
at college. We're going to hire a skip and he's going to do a general
garage tidy-up (and believe me it needs doing )) and clear the area
behind the garage. The biggest job however, will be the front "garden".

The previous owners got rid of the lawn (not very well, I might add), laid
visqueen, and then put on about 2 to 3 tons of pea gravel. We want to get
rid of the pea gravel, level the ground properly, lay landscape fabric and
then put down a couple of tons of 20mm Golden Gravel.

He's a good strong lad and well up for doing the work for us (I can't
because of a back injury) but we haven't got a clue what to pay him, and
he doesn't know what to ask for because he's never done a job like this
for money before. We obviously want to pay him a fair price for his hard
graft so has anyone got any ideas as to what we should be paying him, and
should we say so much per hour or give him a lump sum for the job?

A lump sum payment will let him set his own pace for the job without you
having to worry about the cost going up if he finds it a bit hard going. Get
a couple of quotes from people who do this as a business, then pay him about
half that as he won't have the overheads that a business would. If you knock
£20 off the price then give it to him at the end as a bonus he will think
you are a great employer.

Colin Bignell

In article , "ben"
says...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"news" wrote in message
...

I'd tell you to F'off. :-)

That kind of response would really endear a potential employer ...


Only monkeys work for peanuts. I certainly ain't one.

It's amazing how you manage so well without opposing thumbs.

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...
...
It does, but if he's worthy of his hire he should have at least the
legal minimum hourly rate for his age.

I've just looked that up, it's £3 an hour for a 16 - 17 year olf, a
review is urged but won't be applicable until October 2006 I believe...

If you are going to apply statutory minima, he also is entitled to a 30
minute break after 4.5 hours work and must have a 12 hour break in any 24
hour period.

That sounds fair enough. It's what I allow myself.

I don't always get it - in fact I rarely do - but I allow it:-)

Mary

Colin Bignell

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "ben"
says...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"news" wrote in message
...

I'd tell you to F'off. :-)

That kind of response would really endear a potential employer ...


Only monkeys work for peanuts. I certainly ain't one.

It's amazing how you manage so well without opposing thumbs.

I wish I'd thought of that ...

Mary

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message
...


A lump sum payment will let him set his own pace for the job without you
having to worry about the cost going up if he finds it a bit hard going.
Get a couple of quotes from people who do this as a business, then pay him
about half that as he won't have the overheads that a business would. If
you knock £20 off the price then give it to him at the end as a bonus he
will think you are a great employer.

That sounds good - but potentially expensive...

The principle is right though. Not trying to pay as little as possible but
paying a fair rate for the work done.

Mary

Colin Bignell

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:04:45 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Rob Morley" wrote in message
et...
In article , "ben"
says...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"news" wrote in message
...

I'd tell you to F'off. :-)

That kind of response would really endear a potential employer ...


Only monkeys work for peanuts. I certainly ain't one.

It's amazing how you manage so well without opposing thumbs.

I wish I'd thought of that ...

Don't worry Mary, you will.

(Somebody said the same to Oscar Wilde at a party).



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:04:45 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"Rob Morley" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "ben"
says...
Mary Fisher wrote:
"news" wrote in message
...

I'd tell you to F'off. :-)

That kind of response would really endear a potential employer ...


Only monkeys work for peanuts. I certainly ain't one.

It's amazing how you manage so well without opposing thumbs.

I wish I'd thought of that ...

Don't worry Mary, you will.

(Somebody said the same to Oscar Wilde at a party).

Nobody said, "Don't worry, Mary, you will." to Oscar Wilde at any time,
party or not!

Mary



--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , "ben"
says...
Rob Morley wrote:
In article , "Andy Hall"
am says...
snip
Are you sure that it isn't that you wish you were 16 again? ;=)

No thanks - 21 maybe :-)

Hah! you had bad case of 'hackney' when you was 16. :-)

I was fairly clueless at 16 - by 21 I'd started to figure out what
makes the world go round.

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:46:02 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

s amazing how you manage so well without opposing thumbs.

I wish I'd thought of that ...

Don't worry Mary, you will.

(Somebody said the same to Oscar Wilde at a party).

Nobody said, "Don't worry, Mary, you will." to Oscar Wilde at any time,
party or not!

Mary


In Oscar's case, they might very well have done...... :-)



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message , ben
writes
Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:18:13 +0100, "Steve" wrote:

My mate's 16-year old son is going to do some work for us before he
starts at college. We're going to hire a skip and he's going to do a
general garage tidy-up (and believe me it needs doing )) and clear
the area behind the garage. The biggest job however, will be the
front "garden".
It's hard to be more specific without knowing the size of garage etc
and how bad it is.

pmsl,

Pmsl ?

--
geoff

Steve presented the following explanation :
My mate's 16-year old son is going to do some work for us before he starts at
college. We're going to hire a skip and he's going to do a general garage
tidy-up (and believe me it needs doing )) and clear the area behind the
garage. The biggest job however, will be the front "garden".

The previous owners got rid of the lawn (not very well, I might add), laid
visqueen, and then put on about 2 to 3 tons of pea gravel. We want to get rid
of the pea gravel, level the ground properly, lay landscape fabric and then
put down a couple of tons of 20mm Golden Gravel.

He's a good strong lad and well up for doing the work for us (I can't because
of a back injury) but we haven't got a clue what to pay him, and he doesn't
know what to ask for because he's never done a job like this for money
before. We obviously want to pay him a fair price for his hard graft so has
anyone got any ideas as to what we should be paying him, and should we say so
much per hour or give him a lump sum for the job?

TIA,

Steve.

I would suggest a fixed sum for a specified job, excluding costs for
materials. That way he would not have an incentive to string the job
out any more than necessary. I would suggest £300 in cash, plus another
£300 in an account set up for him as an incentive to save.

I suggest you keep a close eye on proceedings and assist with the
lighter work, both to make sure it is done properly as well as make
sure it is done the easiest way. They tend not to know how best to
minimise the the amount of effort needed, if they have never tackled a
job like this before - so sit down with him and plan it before hand.

They might well start off with the best of intentions, but often become
disillusioned part way through. So be prepared to split the job in to
smaller parts where you pay a percentage of the total at the end of
each stage.

--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Steve wrote:
He's a good strong lad and well up for doing the work for us (I can't
because of a back injury) but we haven't got a clue what to pay him, and
he doesn't know what to ask for because he's never done a job like this
for money before. We obviously want to pay him a fair price for his
hard graft so has anyone got any ideas as to what we should be paying
him, and should we say so much per hour or give him a lump sum for the
job?

Assuming he's a decent grafter I'd go for the minimum wage - 5 quid an
hour? That's more than he would get as a 16 year old, but well worth it if
he's doing a man's work.

But if he likes to take plenty of breaks, perhaps a fixed sum for the job?


If he does a good job at the end, maybe a bit of a bonus to
show your appreciation
--
geoff

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "ben"
says...
Rob Morley wrote:
In article , "Andy Hall"
am says...
snip
Are you sure that it isn't that you wish you were 16 again? ;=)

No thanks - 21 maybe :-)

Hah! you had bad case of 'hackney' when you was 16. :-)

I was fairly clueless at 16 - by 21 I'd started to figure out what
makes the world go round.

I wish I knew - at 3X21 plus some.

The thing is that at 21 we DO think we know. At 30 we KNOW we know.

Then the doubts begin - if we have any intelligence that is ...

Mary

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 20:46:02 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:

s amazing how you manage so well without opposing thumbs.

I wish I'd thought of that ...

Don't worry Mary, you will.

(Somebody said the same to Oscar Wilde at a party).

Nobody said, "Don't worry, Mary, you will." to Oscar Wilde at any time,
party or not!

Mary


In Oscar's case, they might very well have done...... :-)

No. I assure you it didn't happen.



--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...

I would suggest a fixed sum for a specified job, excluding costs for
materials. That way he would not have an incentive to string the job out
any more than necessary.

Why would you think he'd do that? Not all people do.

Mary

Mary Fisher formulated on Tuesday :

I would suggest a fixed sum for a specified job, excluding costs for
materials. That way he would not have an incentive to string the job out
any more than necessary.

Why would you think he'd do that? Not all people do.

There are rare exceptions, but most kids when faced with a major job
quickly loose interest. Therefore better to offer a fixed sum for a
fixed job. The incentive then is to get stuck in.



--

Regards,
Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

raden wrote:
In message , ben
writes
Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:18:13 +0100, "Steve"
wrote:

My mate's 16-year old son is going to do some work for us before he
starts at college. We're going to hire a skip and he's going to do
a general garage tidy-up (and believe me it needs doing )) and
clear the area behind the garage. The biggest job however, will be
the front "garden".
It's hard to be more specific without knowing the size of garage etc
and how bad it is.

pmsl,

Pmsl ?

Are you stuck in this group? dont you ever venture?

Pi**ed meself laughing. :-)

"Harry Bloomfield" wrote in message
...
Mary Fisher formulated on Tuesday :
I would suggest a fixed sum for a specified job, excluding costs for
materials. That way he would not have an incentive to string the job out
any more than necessary.

Why would you think he'd do that? Not all people do.

There are rare exceptions, but most kids when faced with a major job
quickly loose interest.

Harry - you don't KNOW that MOST kids do that.

They might in your experience, they don't in mine. But we don't know all
kids so neither of us can speak for all of them.

Mary

ben wrote:
raden wrote:

In message , ben
writes

Pmsl ?


Are you stuck in this group? dont you ever venture?

Pi**ed meself laughing. :-)

ROTF :-)

I rather like that one :-))

Dave

On Tue, 02 Aug 2005 21:36:23 +0100, "Harry Bloomfield"
wrote:

There are rare exceptions, but most kids when faced with a major job
quickly loose interest. Therefore better to offer a fixed sum for a
fixed job. The incentive then is to get stuck in.

My 12 year old daughter helped me decorate for a week for a pair of
rollerblades ;-)

I did throw in some protective gear as a bonus though! ;-)

She kept busy pretty well all the time and we had a laugh and chat at
the same time .. she was't up for a second week though (well it was
the school holidays) ;-)

All the best ..

T i m

Rob Morley wrote:
I was fairly clueless at 16 - by 21 I'd started to figure out what
makes the world go round.

Astrophysics at university?

Owain

"T i m" wrote in message
...


My 12 year old daughter helped me decorate for a week for a pair of
rollerblades ;-)

I did throw in some protective gear as a bonus though! ;-)

You mean a dust sheet?

Mary

In article , nightjar
nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com wrote:
I've just looked that up, it's £3 an hour for a 16 - 17 year olf, a
review is urged but won't be applicable until October 2006 I
believe...

If you are going to apply statutory minima, he also is entitled to a 30
minute break after 4.5 hours work and must have a 12 hour break in any
24 hour period.

Dunno where you get that from. The first break must be 6 hours or less
after the start of work. The second one - if applicable - must be 6 hours
after the end of the first one, and paid for. 11 hours between the end of
one shift and the start of the next one. Tea breaks, etc, between statuary
meal breaks not mandatory.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:55:31 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
.. .


My 12 year old daughter helped me decorate for a week for a pair of
rollerblades ;-)

I did throw in some protective gear as a bonus though! ;-)

You mean a dust sheet?

No (silly woman) g knee / elbow protectors and one of those helmets
the 'skater boys' wear (that look like German army helmets .. her
choice g).

All the best ..

T i m

In article ,
Mary Fisher wrote:
I would suggest a fixed sum for a specified job, excluding costs for
materials. That way he would not have an incentive to string the job
out any more than necessary.

Why would you think he'd do that? Not all people do.

He'll be working largely unsupervised. On a job where he was, and the rate
of work was dictated by someone else, an hourly rate is appropriate. If
it's job and finish, best to have a price for the entire job. That way if
he decides to work hard and finish early, or take his time with plenty of
tea breaks, it's good value for both.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , ben
writes
raden wrote:
In message , ben
writes
Andy Hall wrote:
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 11:18:13 +0100, "Steve"
wrote:

My mate's 16-year old son is going to do some work for us before he
starts at college. We're going to hire a skip and he's going to do
a general garage tidy-up (and believe me it needs doing )) and
clear the area behind the garage. The biggest job however, will be
the front "garden".
It's hard to be more specific without knowing the size of garage etc
and how bad it is.

pmsl,

Pmsl ?

Are you stuck in this group?

Hardly

dont you ever venture?

Pi**ed meself laughing. :-)

Prolly a bit tame for the groups I frequent


--
geoff

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message
...


A lump sum payment will let him set his own pace for the job without you
having to worry about the cost going up if he finds it a bit hard going.
Get a couple of quotes from people who do this as a business, then pay
him about half that as he won't have the overheads that a business would.
If you knock £20 off the price then give it to him at the end as a bonus
he will think you are a great employer.

That sounds good - but potentially expensive...

It would be twice as expensive to get the professionals to do it though and
the bonus does not have to be paid if he does not come up to scratch.

The principle is right though. Not trying to pay as little as possible but
paying a fair rate for the work done.

If the OP wants to get the lad to do more work later, he will be a lot more
willing if he got a fair deal in the first place.

Colin Bignell

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
et...
...
It does, but if he's worthy of his hire he should have at least the
legal minimum hourly rate for his age.

I've just looked that up, it's £3 an hour for a 16 - 17 year olf, a
review is urged but won't be applicable until October 2006 I believe...

If you are going to apply statutory minima, he also is entitled to a 30
minute break after 4.5 hours work and must have a 12 hour break in any 24
hour period.

That sounds fair enough. It's what I allow myself.

I don't always get it - in fact I rarely do - but I allow it:-)

Over 18s only get 20 minutes statutory break, if they work for more than six
hours.

Colin Bignell

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article , nightjar
nightjar@insert my surname here.uk.com wrote:
I've just looked that up, it's £3 an hour for a 16 - 17 year olf, a
review is urged but won't be applicable until October 2006 I
believe...

If you are going to apply statutory minima, he also is entitled to a 30
minute break after 4.5 hours work and must have a 12 hour break in any
24 hour period.

Dunno where you get that from.

The Working Time Regulations 1998, paragraph 12 (4), which deals with rest
breaks for young workers.

The first break must be 6 hours or less
after the start of work. The second one - if applicable - must be 6 hours
after the end of the first one, and paid for.

WTR 1998 paragraph 12 (1) specifies that an adult worker whose working day
is longer than six hours is entitled to a rest break. Paragraph 12 (3)
specifies that, in the absence of any collective or workforce agreement, the
break shall be an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes. When the
break shall be taken is not specified nor is a second break a requirement of
the regulations.

11 hours between the end of
one shift and the start of the next one.

Again, that only applies to an adult worker.

Colin Bignell

In message , nightjar
writes

WTR 1998 paragraph 12 (1) specifies that an adult worker whose working day
is longer than six hours is entitled to a rest break. Paragraph 12 (3)
specifies that, in the absence of any collective or workforce agreement, the
break shall be an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes. When the
break shall be taken is not specified nor is a second break a requirement of
the regulations.

We've well hit the how many to change a light bulb haven't we

It's a bloody kid wanting to earn a few bob for doing a bit of manual
labour

AFAICS

He's not going to present a p45 , be taxed, have NIC deducted, have 2
days / month holiday

He's not going to lie awake at nights wondering if he's subject to IR35

In fact, he's probably going to have problems getting his back off the
bed after the first day, as he discovers all those muscles he'd never
met before

For everyone else, there's a life waiting for you

somewhere over there ------------------------------------

wherever that is

--
geoff

In article , "Mary
Fisher" says...

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , "ben"
says...
Rob Morley wrote:
In article , "Andy Hall"
am says...
snip
Are you sure that it isn't that you wish you were 16 again? ;=)

No thanks - 21 maybe :-)

Hah! you had bad case of 'hackney' when you was 16. :-)

I was fairly clueless at 16 - by 21 I'd started to figure out what
makes the world go round.

I wish I knew - at 3X21 plus some.

I did say *started* - of course some bugger goes and shifts the
goalposts every so often anyway ...

In article , "Owain"
says...
Rob Morley wrote:
I was fairly clueless at 16 - by 21 I'd started to figure out what
makes the world go round.

Astrophysics at university?

Yeah, like that would be really useful ...

:-)

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , nightjar
writes

WTR 1998 paragraph 12 (1) specifies that an adult worker whose working day
is longer than six hours is entitled to a rest break. Paragraph 12 (3)
specifies that, in the absence of any collective or workforce agreement,
the
break shall be an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes. When
the
break shall be taken is not specified nor is a second break a requirement
of
the regulations.

We've well hit the how many to change a light bulb haven't we

It's a bloody kid wanting to earn a few bob for doing a bit of manual
labour

AFAICS

He's not going to present a p45 , be taxed, have NIC deducted, have 2 days
/ month holiday

He's not going to lie awake at nights wondering if he's subject to IR35...

You have rather missed the point haven't you? My reply to Mary was a joke. I
don't use smileys, so, when looking at my posts, you need to revert to the
centuries old system of reading and understanding.

Dave then questioned the basis of the information, at which point we had
entirely diverged from the original question.

Colin Bignell

Snip

Thanks to all who've replied. I think we'll probably try for the £7 per hour
or about £50-£60 per day mark - that seems quite reasonable and if someone
was paying me to do it, I'd be happy with that.

Cheers all,

Steve.

Steve.


I would work out how many days it should take and use you figure of £40
a day and pay it as a set lump sum. I would have been happy with that a
16. Oh don't forget to provide safety kit gloves, googles, dustmask etc.

Paul

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , nightjar
writes

WTR 1998 paragraph 12 (1) specifies that an adult worker whose working day
is longer than six hours is entitled to a rest break. Paragraph 12 (3)
specifies that, in the absence of any collective or workforce agreement,
the
break shall be an uninterrupted period of not less than 20 minutes. When
the
break shall be taken is not specified nor is a second break a requirement
of
the regulations.

We've well hit the how many to change a light bulb haven't we

It's a bloody kid wanting to earn a few bob for doing a bit of manual
labour

AFAICS

He's not going to present a p45 , be taxed, have NIC deducted, have 2 days
/ month holiday

He's not going to lie awake at nights wondering if he's subject to IR35

In fact, he's probably going to have problems getting his back off the bed
after the first day, as he discovers all those muscles he'd never met
before

For everyone else, there's a life waiting for you

somewhere over there ------------------------------------

wherever that is

:-)

--
geoff

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...



You have rather missed the point haven't you? My reply to Mary was a joke.

That's how I took it - and Geoff's post too.

We CAN get bogged down in detailwhen replying to a simple question.

Mary too
:-)

I

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Mary Fisher" wrote in message
. net...

"nightjar .uk.com" nightjar@insert my surname here wrote in message
...

"Steve" wrote in message
...


A lump sum payment will let him set his own pace for the job without you
having to worry about the cost going up if he finds it a bit hard going.
Get a couple of quotes from people who do this as a business, then pay
him about half that as he won't have the overheads that a business
would. If you knock £20 off the price then give it to him at the end as
a bonus he will think you are a great employer.

That sounds good - but potentially expensive...

It would be twice as expensive to get the professionals to do it though
and the bonus does not have to be paid if he does not come up to scratch.

The principle is right though. Not trying to pay as little as possible
but paying a fair rate for the work done.

If the OP wants to get the lad to do more work later, he will be a lot
more willing if he got a fair deal in the first place.

I've madethat point too.

Mary

Colin Bignell

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 22:55:31 +0100, "Mary Fisher"
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
. ..


My 12 year old daughter helped me decorate for a week for a pair of
rollerblades ;-)

I did throw in some protective gear as a bonus though! ;-)

You mean a dust sheet?

No (silly woman) g knee / elbow protectors and one of those helmets
the 'skater boys' wear (that look like German army helmets .. her
choice g).

For decorating?

Isn't that a bit over the top??

VBSG

Mary

On Tue, 2 Aug 2005 23:38:05 +0100, "nightjar".uk.com wrote:

Over 18s only get 20 minutes statutory break, if they work for more
than six hours.

But that 20 mins is part of the 6 hours, so you should only "work" for
5h40m at a stretch. ISTR that the clock starts at your personal start
time as well, yes personal times can be different to those that the
employer thinks they are asking.

I must admit that the =A33/hr minimum wage for 16/17 year olds strikes
me as very low. I bet many 16/17 year olds are doing the same work as
"adults"... And the differing break structure must be a nightmare for
anyone employing youngsters spaning the 17/18 age break point.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

They might in your experience, they don't in mine. But we don't know all
kids so neither of us can speak for all of them.

Ahh, so you are happy to speak for all the people who ever spoke to
Oscar Wild, but not for all the kids?