"Andy Mckenzie" wrote in message
...

Isn't so much 'war-winning' about timing? If the Me163 had been
operational in
substantial quantities in 1943 the daylight bomber offensive would
probably have
been abandoned and therefore the war would have progressed diffrently, but
that
sort of speculation is fairly fatuous, because it wasn't. A better case
can be made
for the rather more deadly Me 262 as a war winning weapon, if had been put
into
service soonr, although that had atrocious reliability problems.

The Me262 could have won the war for Hitler if he hadn't delayed it by
having it modified to be a bomber.
It would have arrived about a year earlier when the Germans still had access
to tungsten and titanium and chromium.
These would have solved the reliability issues with the engines (jet engines
don't last very long when they are made of steel).

In article ,
dennis@home writes

"Andy Mckenzie" wrote in message
...

Isn't so much 'war-winning' about timing? If the Me163 had been
operational in
substantial quantities in 1943 the daylight bomber offensive would
probably have
been abandoned and therefore the war would have progressed diffrently, but
that
sort of speculation is fairly fatuous, because it wasn't. A better case
can be made
for the rather more deadly Me 262 as a war winning weapon, if had been put
into
service soonr, although that had atrocious reliability problems.

The Me262 could have won the war for Hitler if he hadn't delayed it by
having it modified to be a bomber.

And they Yanks would have used an A Bomb on Berlin or somewhere in
Germany?....
--
Tony Sayer

dennis@home wrote:

"Roger R" wrote in message
...

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...

No trouble getting 25 litres, or half a litre, but I'm looking for 5
litre packaging (30% conc). A web search might be easier if I knew which
trades use it. I'm sick of reading about hairdressing and teeth
whitening.
Thanks for any pointers.

The Germans used concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a propellant for their
V-1
flying bomb. It was used to rapidly generate steam for the launching
catapult.
They called it T-Stoff.


The V1 was a pulse jet powered by petrol.

The V2 was the rocket and use hydrogen peroxide as an oxidant.


He is thinking of the Mescherchmitt Komett - trocket powerd single seat
wooden glider/fighter with an on/off rocket engine that usually exploded.


As most German rocket development went to America after the war, perhaps
N.A.S.A. could give you a lead :-)

Roger

dennis@home wrote:

"Roger R" wrote in message
...

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
...

No trouble getting 25 litres, or half a litre, but I'm looking for 5
litre packaging (30% conc). A web search might be easier if I knew which
trades use it. I'm sick of reading about hairdressing and teeth
whitening.
Thanks for any pointers.

The Germans used concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a propellant for their
V-1
flying bomb. It was used to rapidly generate steam for the launching
catapult.
They called it T-Stoff.


The V1 was a pulse jet powered by petrol.

The V2 was the rocket and use hydrogen peroxide as an oxidant.


He is thinking of the Mescherchmitt Komett - trocket powerd single seat
wooden glider/fighter with an on/off rocket engine that usually exploded.


As most German rocket development went to America after the war, perhaps
N.A.S.A. could give you a lead :-)

Roger

Scraggy wrote:

Aidan wrote:

Roger R wrote:

The Germans used concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a propellant for
their V-1 flying bomb. It was used to rapidly generate steam for
the launching catapult. They called it T-Stoff.


Also used on one of their rocket propelled fighters, Heinkel,Me 262 or
something; some otaku anorak will know. The planes used to crash
frequently on take off or landing. I've read that if the pilot escaped
instant cremation, he'd probably get dissolved by the hydrogen
peroxide.


I am that anorak. Take off mainly, they glided in to land empty having
IIRC used thei ca. 8 minutes fuel. Me 163 Komet


And were either too fast or too slow to attack anything
http://www.xs4all.nl/~robdebie/me163.htm

The ME262 was a proper kerosene jet turbine twin engined fighter.

Sam Nelson wrote:

In article .com,
"Aidan" writes:

Roger R wrote:

The Germans used concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a propellant for their V-1
flying bomb. It was used to rapidly generate steam for the launching catapult.
They called it T-Stoff.

Also used on one of their rocket propelled fighters, Heinkel,Me 262 or
something; some otaku anorak will know.


He163 and Me262 were both jet aircraft. They may have carried H2O2 as some
auxiliary fuel, I suppose. I can't see a `rocket-propelled fighter' being
very practical: it would be in-theatre swiftly, out-of-theatre equally
swiftly, and be out of juice shortly thereafter.


It wasn't (practical) and was (out of theatre quickly).


The planes used to crash
frequently on take off or landing. I've read that if the pilot escaped
instant cremation, he'd probably get dissolved by the hydrogen peroxide.


Having watched that used on a cut on my leg once, as a kid, I've an idea
of that experience etched (NPI) on my memory.

Indeed.

Andy Mckenzie wrote:

"Sam Nelson" wrote in message
...

In article .com,
"Aidan" writes:

Roger R wrote:

The Germans used concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a propellant for
their V-1
flying bomb. It was used to rapidly generate steam for the launching
catapult.
They called it T-Stoff.

Also used on one of their rocket propelled fighters, Heinkel,Me 262 or
something; some otaku anorak will know.

He163 and Me262 were both jet aircraft. They may have carried H2O2 as
some
auxiliary fuel, I suppose. I can't see a `rocket-propelled fighter' being
very practical: it would be in-theatre swiftly, out-of-theatre equally
swiftly, and be out of juice shortly thereafter.


The planes used to crash
frequently on take off or landing. I've read that if the pilot escaped
instant cremation, he'd probably get dissolved by the hydrogen peroxide.

Having watched that used on a cut on my leg once, as a kid, I've an idea
of that experience etched (NPI) on my memory.
--
SAm.


Just to add my bit of pedantry, the Me262 was a jet, the Me163 was a rocket
powered aircraft. There was a rocket powred He 176, but as far as I am aware
no He-163. At the stage of the war it was used it was a very practical
aircraft, in that the 'theatre' was German cities subject to mass daylight
bombing raids. The Me163 could sit around and wait for the massed raids to
come over, then fly to altitude, attack at speeds that allied aircraft
couldn't hope to deal with, and be back on the ground within minutes.
However by the time they were deployed Germanies infrastructure and
manufacturing were so disrupted that they couldn't be bult in the quantities
required They only built a few 100, and they could never deploy them in
numbers to do real damage. It is estimated that they shot down about 10
allied planes for 15 Me163s lost in combat, but that hundreds of Me163 were
destroyed in landing or takeoff, or due to airfarme failure when mucking
about at the edge of the sound barrier. There is a Me-163 in the Science
museum in London.

Just to bring things back to D-I-Y - go to
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html and
you too can dream of building an Me-262 n your shed!

Andy M


And here are the chemicals used
http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/28...fuel/fuel.html

In article ,
tony sayer writes:
In article ,
dennis@home writes

"Andy Mckenzie" wrote in message
...
The Me262 could have won the war for Hitler if he hadn't delayed it by
having it modified to be a bomber.

And they Yanks would have used an A Bomb on Berlin or somewhere in
Germany?....

I've read that Frankfurt and Hamburg were the two top potential targets.
You don't A-bomb the capital to finish a war, if you can avoid it, because
you need an administrative centre of some sort afterwards. But, yes,
they'd've done that, I don't doubt.
--
SAm.

tony sayer wrote:

In article ,
dennis@home writes

"Andy Mckenzie" wrote in message
...


Isn't so much 'war-winning' about timing? If the Me163 had been
operational in
substantial quantities in 1943 the daylight bomber offensive would
probably have
been abandoned and therefore the war would have progressed diffrently, but
that
sort of speculation is fairly fatuous, because it wasn't. A better case
can be made
for the rather more deadly Me 262 as a war winning weapon, if had been put
into
service soonr, although that had atrocious reliability problems.

The Me262 could have won the war for Hitler if he hadn't delayed it by
having it modified to be a bomber.


And they Yanks would have used an A Bomb on Berlin or somewhere in
Germany?....

Yes.
Probably.
I think that Dresden produced as many if not more casualties than Hiroshima.

"PC Paul" wrote in message
.uk...

The Germans used concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a propellant for
their V-1 flying bomb. It was used to rapidly generate steam for the
launching catapult. They called it T-Stoff.

As most German rocket development went to America after the war,
perhaps N.A.S.A. could give you a lead :-)


Remind me what the C-Stoff was that they mixed with it to make it go bang?

Z-Stoff ?

Roger

Sam Nelson wrote:


They only built a few 100, and they could never deploy them in
numbers to do real damage. It is estimated that they shot down about 10
allied planes for 15 Me163s lost in combat, but that hundreds of Me163 were
destroyed in landing or takeoff, or due to airfarme failure when mucking
about at the edge of the sound barrier. There is a Me-163 in the Science
museum in London.

No idea of the source of these figures, or how accurate they are. I
wouldn't
be inclined to believe allied figures, they were often economical with
the truth issued to their forces with regard to the deficiencies of
their own kit. My understanding was that if one attacked a bomber, the
result was a foregone conclusion. There were so many bombers and so few
Me 163s, that the outcome of the war was, by that stage, also a
foregone conclusion.

That's perilously close to suicide missions, then, and not the war-winning
weapon others might have us believe.

The air-frame problems might have been solved with more development,
the vulnerability during the glide-back might have been solved with
fighter escorts. The Nazis had neither time nor fighters, for which we
must be grateful. Another one of the many "thank God they didn't ...."
incidents.

Aidan wrote:


Sam Nelson wrote:



They only built a few 100, and they could never deploy them in
numbers to do real damage. It is estimated that they shot down about 10
allied planes for 15 Me163s lost in combat, but that hundreds of Me163 were
destroyed in landing or takeoff, or due to airfarme failure when mucking
about at the edge of the sound barrier. There is a Me-163 in the Science
museum in London.


No idea of the source of these figures, or how accurate they are. I
wouldn't
be inclined to believe allied figures, they were often economical with
the truth issued to their forces with regard to the deficiencies of
their own kit. My understanding was that if one attacked a bomber, the
result was a foregone conclusion. There were so many bombers and so few
Me 163s, that the outcome of the war was, by that stage, also a
foregone conclusion.


That's perilously close to suicide missions, then, and not the war-winning
weapon others might have us believe.


The air-frame problems might have been solved with more development,
the vulnerability during the glide-back might have been solved with
fighter escorts. The Nazis had neither time nor fighters, for which we
must be grateful. Another one of the many "thank God they didn't ...."
incidents.

But if the war had lasted longer we had Gloster Meteors operational
which were arguably better than the ME262 and streets ahead of the 163.

On Tue, 19 Jul 2005 15:43:06 GMT, "PC Paul" wrote:

Remind me what the C-Stoff was that they mixed with it to make it go bang?

T-stoff 80% hydrogen peroxide (oxidiser)

C-stoff hydrazine /methanol mix (fuel)

Z-stoff potassium or calcium permanganate (consumable catalyst - small
quantity used)

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message ...
dennis@home wrote:

"Roger R" wrote in message
...

The Germans used concentrated hydrogen peroxide as a propellant for their
V-1
flying bomb. It was used to rapidly generate steam for the launching
catapult.
They called it T-Stoff.


The V1 was a pulse jet powered by petrol.

The V2 was the rocket and use hydrogen peroxide as an oxidant.


He is thinking of the Mescherchmitt Komett - trocket powerd single seat
wooden glider/fighter with an on/off rocket engine that usually exploded.

No I was not.
I was well aware the ram jet on the V-1 used a simple fuel like kerosene and did
not say the peroxide was the fuel IN the flying bomb. Read again and you will
see I said the peroxide was used as a propellant for the V-1 in the launching
catapult.

Roger

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
tony sayer wrote:

In article ,
dennis@home writes

"Andy Mckenzie" wrote in message
...


Isn't so much 'war-winning' about timing? If the Me163 had been
operational in
substantial quantities in 1943 the daylight bomber offensive would
probably have
been abandoned and therefore the war would have progressed diffrently, but
that
sort of speculation is fairly fatuous, because it wasn't. A better case
can be made
for the rather more deadly Me 262 as a war winning weapon, if had been put
into
service soonr, although that had atrocious reliability problems.

The Me262 could have won the war for Hitler if he hadn't delayed it by
having it modified to be a bomber.


And they Yanks would have used an A Bomb on Berlin or somewhere in
Germany?....

Yes.
Probably.
I think that Dresden produced as many if not more casualties than Hiroshima.

Both essentially civillian targets with plenty of 'Innocent' women and children.

Mans' inhumanity to Man.

Roger