While investigating some dampness in my kitchen walls, we found that the
previous owner's builder, when extending the kitchen in 2000, had
embedded a T&E cable for a radial circuit in the concrete floor screed
without a conduit and only about 10 mm below the surface. I believe
they are supposed to be at least 50 mm and in conduit. Would this have
been illegal at the time, or merely foolhardy?

(The dampness, by the way, came from a leaking water pipe joint, also
positioned just under the surface.)

--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 22:08:53 GMT, "Richard J."
wrote:

While investigating some dampness in my kitchen walls, we found that the
previous owner's builder, when extending the kitchen in 2000, had
embedded a T&E cable for a radial circuit in the concrete floor screed
without a conduit and only about 10 mm below the surface. I believe
they are supposed to be at least 50 mm and in conduit. Would this have
been illegal at the time, or merely foolhardy?

(The dampness, by the way, came from a leaking water pipe joint, also
positioned just under the surface.)


I believe just extremely foolhardy. Part P is supposed to deal with
stupid things like that. It went against all recommendations then, but
no laws as such (The wiring regulations had no legal force then,
indeed, they don't even now, they are just recommendations, such that
if you follow them, it is deemed safe, however not following them
doesn't automatically make it 'non compliant'.

The only rules then I believe were it must be safe in normal usage,
and must not affect the supply to other customers, a badly
[un]protected cable would not violate these rules.

At least he used T&E and not zip cord/vacuum cleaner flex/bell wi-)

Found a 3 core vacuum cleaner cord buried in a plastered wall once,
feeding a 2 way light switch, old red/black/green rubber flex.
And yes, they'd used the green as a live.

--
"I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it
says something about human nature that the only form of life
we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created
life in our own image." - Stephen Hawking

Richard J. wrote:

While investigating some dampness in my kitchen walls, we found that the
previous owner's builder, when extending the kitchen in 2000, had
embedded a T&E cable for a radial circuit in the concrete floor screed
without a conduit and only about 10 mm below the surface. I believe
they are supposed to be at least 50 mm and in conduit. Would this have
been illegal at the time, or merely foolhardy?

IIUC there is no specific requirement for conduit or any particular
depth for cables to be buried at when in a floor (unlike walls where
wires running outside of the "expected" locations must be 50mm deep or
protected so as to be difficult to penetrate with nails etc). There is
however a general requirement that a cable run in a floor "shall not be
liable to damage". As to how liable to damage your cable is/was is a
matter of debate.

So you could say it was not in keeping with the spirit of the regs.
Since they (at the time) had no force of law it would not have been
illegal.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Richard J. wrote:

While investigating some dampness in my kitchen walls, we found that the
previous owner's builder, when extending the kitchen in 2000, had
embedded a T&E cable for a radial circuit in the concrete floor screed
without a conduit and only about 10 mm below the surface. I believe
they are supposed to be at least 50 mm and in conduit. Would this have
been illegal at the time, or merely foolhardy?


IIUC there is no specific requirement for conduit or any particular
depth for cables to be buried at when in a floor (unlike walls where
wires running outside of the "expected" locations must be 50mm deep or
protected so as to be difficult to penetrate with nails etc). There is
however a general requirement that a cable run in a floor "shall not be
liable to damage". As to how liable to damage your cable is/was is a
matter of debate.

So you could say it was not in keeping with the spirit of the regs.
Since they (at the time) had no force of law it would not have been
illegal.


Actually I have in extremis done this myself. Chipped up a bit of floor
to exetend a ring across a doorway.

The spirit of the regulations is to ensure that the normal use of the
property and its electrics do not result in any shock or fire hazard. Up
to and incluing minor work on the property. Ther is also and element of
accessiblity implied in some regulations - e.g. trunking for pipes.

Now T & E in cement is not a fire risk - in fcat its likley to be better
cooled and less surriunded by flammable material than e.g.pulled up
through and insulated stud wwall for example.

As far as shock hazard goes, it is unusual to be drilling into floors to
do anything at all, so the requirements for routing concealed cables are
highly relaxed.

As far as accessibilty goes, again PVC coated cable in screed either
works or it doesn't. Unlike pipes wich can and will corrode in concrete,
it lasts well.

So I personally neither think that it is against regulations, or a Bad
Thing. Its not hard to chip out a section if it finally after years
breaks - certainly no worse than copper water pipes. And frankly with
my floor FULL of plastic UFH water pipes, a couple of bits of T & E is
the least of MY worries.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So I personally neither think that it is against regulations, or a Bad
Thing. Its not hard to chip out a section if it finally after years

Whether it is a "Bad Ting" or not will really come down to circumstances
and where the cable chase actually is. If it is at the edge of a room or
across the bottom of a doorway (where nailing down a masonry carpet
gripper or fitting a trim strip across the bottom of a door may end up
with a nail or drill going through it) then its not a good choice of
position. Anywhere else however should be far safer.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

So I personally neither think that it is against regulations, or a
Bad Thing. Its not hard to chip out a section if it finally after
years

Whether it is a "Bad Ting" or not will really come down to
circumstances and where the cable chase actually is. If it is at
the edge of a room or across the bottom of a doorway (where nailing
down a masonry carpet gripper or fitting a trim strip across the
bottom of a door may end up with a nail or drill going through it)
then its not a good choice of position. Anywhere else however
should be far safer.

The cable ran diagonally across a 1.2 m opening between the two halves
of the T-shaped kitchen.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:20:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Actually I have in extremis done this myself. Chipped up a bit of floor
to exetend a ring across a doorway.

As far as shock hazard goes, it is unusual to be drilling into floors to
do anything at all, so the requirements for routing concealed cables are
highly relaxed.

Guess who spent the weekend drilling into concrete floors across
doorways? (fixing threshold strips between new laminate and old tiles).
--
On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)

In article ,
Nick Atty wrote:
Guess who spent the weekend drilling into concrete floors across
doorways? (fixing threshold strips between new laminate and old tiles).

Most so called pros use glue.

--
*Why is it that doctors call what they do "practice"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Nick Atty wrote:

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 10:20:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Actually I have in extremis done this myself. Chipped up a bit of floor
to exetend a ring across a doorway.

As far as shock hazard goes, it is unusual to be drilling into floors to
do anything at all, so the requirements for routing concealed cables are
highly relaxed.


Guess who spent the weekend drilling into concrete floors across
doorways? (fixing threshold strips between new laminate and old tiles).

Oh yes, BUT you do it s few inches away from the actual threshold - lay
the cable that is ;-)