We bought this house 2 years ago in order to renovate while we lived here.
I have to admit I was a more or less beginner but gradually I have learnt
more and more about building structure and general DIY.

Before we bought we had a full building survey done for £750 with the
opinion that all major structural details would be found then.

To get to the point, I have now found out that our lounge/diner was created
by removal of wall. Obvious you might say? This was not mentioned in our
survey report. I am sure it was not a supporting wall for the 1st floor
above, however I believe this wall once was supporting the breeze-block wall
of the first floor which I think is giving some sort of support to the roof
beams. This 1st floor wall is basically just resting on floor boards
spanning 2 beams.

Where do I stand with this - surely a full buildings survey should point out
any supporting structure that has been removed? This can be seen by going
underneath the house and viewing the wall that would have been beneath this
removed wall that now ends at the floor boards.

There is no building regs approval for this and I don't believe the previous
owners removed this wall as it was done over 15 years ago.

Do I have a leg to stand on if I were to take this further? I'm thinkiing
about getting a stuctural engineer in to estimate how much to put an RSJ
across in order to comply with building regs, and trying to get the survey
company to foot the bill...............(huge laugh from you all I reckon).

Any comments / experience appreciated.

Earl
BTW this same survey claimed the house had suffered old subsidence - a fact
now proved to be false and was actually badly worn pointing and slight brick
slippage.

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:06:12 +0100, "Earl Kella"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

We bought this house 2 years ago in order to renovate while we lived here.
I have to admit I was a more or less beginner but gradually I have learnt
more and more about building structure and general DIY.

Before we bought we had a full building survey done for £750 with the
opinion that all major structural details would be found then.

To get to the point, I have now found out that our lounge/diner was created
by removal of wall. Obvious you might say? This was not mentioned in our
survey report. I am sure it was not a supporting wall for the 1st floor
above, however I believe this wall once was supporting the breeze-block wall
of the first floor which I think is giving some sort of support to the roof
beams. This 1st floor wall is basically just resting on floor boards
spanning 2 beams.

Where do I stand with this - surely a full buildings survey should point out
any supporting structure that has been removed? This can be seen by going
underneath the house and viewing the wall that would have been beneath this
removed wall that now ends at the floor boards.

There is no building regs approval for this and I don't believe the previous
owners removed this wall as it was done over 15 years ago.

Do I have a leg to stand on if I were to take this further? I'm thinkiing
about getting a stuctural engineer in to estimate how much to put an RSJ
across in order to comply with building regs, and trying to get the survey
company to foot the bill...............(huge laugh from you all I reckon).

Any comments / experience appreciated.

Earl
BTW this same survey claimed the house had suffered old subsidence - a fact
now proved to be false and was actually badly worn pointing and slight brick
slippage.

You don't say how old the property is?

It was standard construction in the 70's to put the upstairs walls on
the floor boards. You use the term breeze block. Do you mean the
Thermalite block? If so you may find the wall is only 3 inches thick
and weighs almost nothing. None of my upstairs walls are over a
downstairs wall, all are on floor boards.

In article ,
"Earl Kella" writes:
To get to the point, I have now found out that our lounge/diner was created
by removal of wall. Obvious you might say? This was not mentioned in our
survey report. I am sure it was not a supporting wall for the 1st floor
above, however I believe this wall once was supporting the breeze-block wall
of the first floor which I think is giving some sort of support to the roof
beams.

Why do you believe this?

This 1st floor wall is basically just resting on floor boards
spanning 2 beams.

This doesn't make sense -- I suspect you are wrong. If the wall was a
supporting wall, it would not have been built on top of the first floor.
Indeed it would have been supporting the first floor.

Where do I stand with this - surely a full buildings survey should point out
any supporting structure that has been removed? This can be seen by going
underneath the house and viewing the wall that would have been beneath this
removed wall that now ends at the floor boards.

That's the normal construction of suspended ground floors, so they
can be constructed using less substantial (cheaper) beams.

There is no building regs approval for this and I don't believe the previous
owners removed this wall as it was done over 15 years ago.

Probably not required unless it was a supporting wall, and it doesn't
sound to me like it was.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article , Earl Kella
wrote:
To get to the point, I have now found out that our lounge/diner was
created by removal of wall.


How old is the house?

When you say "this 1st floor wall is basically just resting on floor
boards spanning 2 beams" do you mean that there is a floor joist either
side of the upstairs wall and parallel to it and the boards run under
the wall? If so I'd be much less worried that if the joists ran into the
wall and the boards were parallel to it.

Also is there anything that gives concern: cracking etc. If not then I'd
probably not worry too much, though you could get an engineer's opinion
to be on the safe side.

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm
[Latest version QSEDBUK 1.10 released 4 April 2005]

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 17:23:15 GMT, EricP
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 18:06:12 +0100, "Earl Kella"
babbled like a waterfall and said:

We bought this house 2 years ago in order to renovate while we lived here.
I have to admit I was a more or less beginner but gradually I have learnt
more and more about building structure and general DIY.

Before we bought we had a full building survey done for £750 with the
opinion that all major structural details would be found then.

To get to the point, I have now found out that our lounge/diner was created
by removal of wall. Obvious you might say? This was not mentioned in our
survey report. I am sure it was not a supporting wall for the 1st floor
above, however I believe this wall once was supporting the breeze-block wall
of the first floor which I think is giving some sort of support to the roof
beams. This 1st floor wall is basically just resting on floor boards
spanning 2 beams.

Where do I stand with this - surely a full buildings survey should point out
any supporting structure that has been removed? This can be seen by going
underneath the house and viewing the wall that would have been beneath this
removed wall that now ends at the floor boards.

There is no building regs approval for this and I don't believe the previous
owners removed this wall as it was done over 15 years ago.

Do I have a leg to stand on if I were to take this further? I'm thinkiing
about getting a stuctural engineer in to estimate how much to put an RSJ
across in order to comply with building regs, and trying to get the survey
company to foot the bill...............(huge laugh from you all I reckon).

Any comments / experience appreciated.

Earl
BTW this same survey claimed the house had suffered old subsidence - a fact
now proved to be false and was actually badly worn pointing and slight brick
slippage.

You don't say how old the property is?

It was standard construction in the 70's to put the upstairs walls on
the floor boards. You use the term breeze block. Do you mean the
Thermalite block? If so you may find the wall is only 3 inches thick
and weighs almost nothing. None of my upstairs walls are over a
downstairs wall, all are on floor boards.


My first little house, which I bought in 1967 was exactly like that,
with the floor boards passing beneath the upstairs walls.

In fact we removed the downstairs dividing wall and the ceiling
plasterboard bridged the gap, obviously in place before the wall was
constructed.

Adny

On Fri, 10 Jun 2005 21:20:12 +0100, wrote:

On 10 Jun,
Derek * wrote:

The term "Paramount Boarding" rings a bell, 2 sheets of plasterboard
seperated by a cellular paper core, like a cheap internal flush door. The
electrician would shove a brush handle down from above to break all the
cells to create a route for his wires to the lightswitches.

Googling for "Paramount Boarding" today only turns up links to the
Paramount Boarding School.... :-(

It's still available, I found details on the British Gypsum website recently,
but it has changed it's name to something I can't remember ATM.

Maybe "panelwall"? as seen at:
http://www.british-gypsum.bpb.com/PDF/a11.pdf
--
I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it
says something about human nature that the only form of
life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've
created life in our own image. - Stephen Hawking

In message ,
EricP wrote:


It was standard construction in the 70's to put the upstairs walls on
the floor boards. You use the term breeze block. Do you mean the
Thermalite block? If so you may find the wall is only 3 inches thick
and weighs almost nothing. None of my upstairs walls are over a
downstairs wall, all are on floor boards.



My parents' 1967 house has the cellular plasterboard stuff resting on
floorboards...

Our 1930s ex-council house had two cinderblock walls upstairs resting on
(next to) nothing. One was built on top of and "in line" with the
floorboards, though there was a non-structural wall partly underneath
(the 1st floor wall kinked) which probably gave a little rigidity to the
matter.

We removed the ground floor wall and put a concrete lintel in (mostly
because the bath was to go directly above) and re-arranged the upstairs
with no regard for supporting structures, using stud walls and
Fermacell, built to partly brace the (really thin) loft joists.

The Building Inspector seemed perfectly happy :-)

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... It's a great place, and the drinks are cold!

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"Earl Kella" writes:
To get to the point, I have now found out that our lounge/diner was
created
by removal of wall. Obvious you might say? This was not mentioned in
our
survey report. I am sure it was not a supporting wall for the 1st floor
above, however I believe this wall once was supporting the breeze-block
wall
of the first floor which I think is giving some sort of support to the
roof
beams.

Why do you believe this?

This 1st floor wall is basically just resting on floor boards
spanning 2 beams.

This doesn't make sense -- I suspect you are wrong. If the wall was a
supporting wall, it would not have been built on top of the first floor.
Indeed it would have been supporting the first floor.



Where do I stand with this - surely a full buildings survey should point
out
any supporting structure that has been removed? This can be seen by
going
underneath the house and viewing the wall that would have been beneath
this
removed wall that now ends at the floor boards.

That's the normal construction of suspended ground floors, so they
can be constructed using less substantial (cheaper) beams.


I don't see how this would help the structure - this (basement) wall does
not support any joists but just runs parallel with them, stopping at the
floor boards - I am sure the removed wall previously rested on this wall


There is no building regs approval for this and I don't believe the
previous
owners removed this wall as it was done over 15 years ago.

Probably not required unless it was a supporting wall, and it doesn't
sound to me like it was.


Well I don't believe it supported the upstairs floor, but maybe it provided
extra support to the 1st floor wall that would have rested on it?
--
Andrew Gabriel

Many thanks for the interesting replies - however my main question remains
unanswered:

Do I have any come back to the surveyors for failing to tell me the
downstairs wall was removed?

Regards

Earl


"Earl Kella" wrote in message
...
We bought this house 2 years ago in order to renovate while we lived here.
I have to admit I was a more or less beginner but gradually I have learnt
more and more about building structure and general DIY.

Before we bought we had a full building survey done for £750 with the
opinion that all major structural details would be found then.

To get to the point, I have now found out that our lounge/diner was
created
by removal of wall. Obvious you might say? This was not mentioned in our
survey report. I am sure it was not a supporting wall for the 1st floor
above, however I believe this wall once was supporting the breeze-block
wall
of the first floor which I think is giving some sort of support to the
roof
beams. This 1st floor wall is basically just resting on floor boards
spanning 2 beams.

Where do I stand with this - surely a full buildings survey should point
out
any supporting structure that has been removed? This can be seen by going
underneath the house and viewing the wall that would have been beneath
this
removed wall that now ends at the floor boards.

There is no building regs approval for this and I don't believe the
previous
owners removed this wall as it was done over 15 years ago.

Do I have a leg to stand on if I were to take this further? I'm thinkiing
about getting a stuctural engineer in to estimate how much to put an RSJ
across in order to comply with building regs, and trying to get the survey
company to foot the bill...............(huge laugh from you all I reckon).

Any comments / experience appreciated.

Earl
BTW this same survey claimed the house had suffered old subsidence - a
fact
now proved to be false and was actually badly worn pointing and slight
brick
slippage.

In article ,
"Earl Kella" writes:
Many thanks for the interesting replies - however my main question remains
unanswered:

Do I have any come back to the surveyors for failing to tell me the
downstairs wall was removed?

No, unless it materially affects the structural intgrity,
and nothing you've said so far indicates it does. You
might ask the surveyor to come back and check -- mine
was happy to make a couple of extra trips to the house
to answer questions without charging (although that was
within a week or two, not 2 years later).

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"Earl Kella" writes:
Many thanks for the interesting replies - however my main question
remains
unanswered:

Do I have any come back to the surveyors for failing to tell me the
downstairs wall was removed?

No, unless it materially affects the structural intgrity,
and nothing you've said so far indicates it does. You
might ask the surveyor to come back and check -- mine
was happy to make a couple of extra trips to the house
to answer questions without charging (although that was
within a week or two, not 2 years later).

--
Andrew Gabriel

OK to elaborate, the reason I am concerned is that for some time now I have
been worried about the support of the attic conversion that was done over 20
years ago and hence no building regs approval. The 'supporting' wall to the
joists of this conversion is the 1st floor breeze block wall that is only
resting on floorboards between 2 joists. If the aformentioned downstairs
wall was still there then I can see that the roof joists would have been
ultimately supported.

However without this wall there is nothing supporting the 1st floor wall and
hence the attic conversion. Our survey report mentioned none of this and I
believe a full buildings survey should be able to say if the attic
conversion is structurally sound.

Maybe I am wrong in this assumption?

Regards

Earl

Earl Kella wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
In article ,
"Earl Kella" writes:
Many thanks for the interesting replies - however my main question
remains
unanswered:
snip
OK to elaborate, the reason I am concerned is that for some time now I have
been worried about the support of the attic conversion that was done over 20
years ago and hence no building regs approval. The 'supporting' wall to the
joists of this conversion is the 1st floor breeze block wall that is only
resting on floorboards between 2 joists. If the aformentioned downstairs
wall was still there then I can see that the roof joists would have been
ultimately supported.

Has the breeze block wall cracked?
If not, there has been no movement in between when it was put up and now.
Which makes it fairly unlikely it's going to fall down tomorrow, though
does not of course give a guarantee.

However without this wall there is nothing supporting the 1st floor wall and
hence the attic conversion. Our survey report mentioned none of this and I
believe a full buildings survey should be able to say if the attic
conversion is structurally sound.

Maybe I am wrong in this assumption?

Earl Kella wrote:

OK to elaborate, the reason I am concerned is that for some time now I have
been worried about the support of the attic conversion that was done over 20
years ago and hence no building regs approval. The 'supporting' wall to the
joists of this conversion is the 1st floor breeze block wall that is only
resting on floorboards between 2 joists. If the aformentioned downstairs
wall was still there then I can see that the roof joists would have been
ultimately supported.

However without this wall there is nothing supporting the 1st floor wall and
hence the attic conversion. Our survey report mentioned none of this and I
believe a full buildings survey should be able to say if the attic
conversion is structurally sound.

Maybe I am wrong in this assumption?

Regards

Earl


So IIUC:

1. your loft floor is partially supported by the lightweight wall
2. This wall will be supported partly by the outer walls if its keyed
into them, or otherwise well attached
3. And partly by the 1st floor floorboards.
4. Those boards are supported by the 1st floor joists

But Im no struc eng!

Dont discount the floorboard support though, 1" of solid wood over the
whole length, with a board span of just over a foot between joists does
give serious strength.

Whether its all compliant I wouldnt know. But masses of houses are sold
yearly that arent, as long as the work was done long ago there is
usually no complaint. Victorian houses rarely meet many modern BRs
after all.


NT