Hi,

I've had a search but can't see anything really relating to the above.

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
and have to walk away and get survey on another property etc...

I know the sensible thing is to walk away but I really do like this
place, it's got a lot going for it, and I might be worrying about
nothing.

1930's brick-exterior (not rendered) semidetatched in Rushden,
Northants, UK. It's had Aluminium D/G fitted.

Property seems sound throughout, apart from one thing: a stepped crack
from the lower right corner of the large window on the front of the
downstairs. Steps along the edge of the bricks, for about 6-7 courses,
heading diagonally downwards at about 45deg angle, toward the left, so
toward the middle of beneath the window. Not as far as the DPC - it
peters out before then, not even hairline to it. Looks to be 1mm or
less for the majority, but there does seem to be a fair bit of
weathering of the mortar causing larger pockets of gaps in a couple of
places - up to about 4mm max I guess.

Checked inside and no sign it's gone through (believed cavity wall) but
then inside is wallpapered with at least one layer, possibly more.

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!

Most of the other houses in the road are of a different style, with
rendering to part/all of the walls, so it's not easy to compare with
similar aged properties.

Any advice much appreciated.

wrote:

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have
the funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a
big prob, and have to walk away

Then you don't have the funds to be mortgaged up to your neck on an
unsellable subsiding house!

wrote:

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!

If you're looking for somebody here to say "yes, for goodness' sake get
it looked at by a professional" or "no, walk away, now!" then fine; but
are you really going to make the decision that you don't need a
structural survey, and are prepared to commit a 6-figure sum (I assume)
on buying the property, based on opinions in a newsgroup from persons
unknown who haven't even seen the place, however well-intentioned?!

Maybe the place has severe subsidence and is falling down; maybe the
foundations have moved a bit sometime but have been 100% stable for the
past 30 years, who knows? Get a structural engineer in if you're
seriously interested in the property.

Word of advice - don't get the structural survey done by your mortgage
lender, for 4 reasons: (a) it's ridiculously expensive (b) it's
performed by a surveyor, not a structural engineer (c) it's done by
someone acting primarily for the mortgage lender not you (d) it's
certainly possible the outcome maybe a recomendation to seek the opinion
of a structural engineer anyway. Instead, get the basic homebuyer's
survey done, and commission your own chartered structural engineer to go
in and provide a structural survey. The combined cost will almost
certainly be far less than if you went through the mortgage lender (eg I
had one done recently on a 2-bed house for about 200 GBP - peanuts
compared with the potential financial disaster of buying a totally duff
property).

If you play your cards right, you ought to be able to make an
appointment with the structural engineer and tag along for the
inspection - you can often get far more value for money if you get them
talking!

You need a

downstairs. Steps along the edge of the bricks, for about 6-7 courses,
heading diagonally downwards at about 45deg angle, toward the left, so
toward the middle of beneath the window. Not as far as the DPC - it


My 1890's house had new foundations and a new 3'x3' window installed circa
1975 and there is a crack about 1mm wide from the middle of the window sill
going down about 2', then it peters out. As the new mortar is cement based
the soft bricks have cracked rather than the mortar.
Didn't worry me at all when I bought the house and some cement pasted over
the crack shows that it hasn't grown in 15 years. So its probably just the
new foundations have settled due to the weight above the sides of the new
window. Where the crack is, is not load bearing in this case, at the bottom
of window, so I don't see a problem.

rusty

wrote:
Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!

I don't think you'd need a full structural survey, just an opinion on
The Stepped Crack. If you got that *before* the homebuyer survey
(assuming the StructE's opinion is favourable) and could reassure the
homebuyer surveyor as he walked around, he might not make much issue of
it in his report -- which is the one which might frighten the mortgagor.

Sounds not unusual to me, the walls each side of the window are bearing
considerable load, but the wall immediately below the window isn't.

If the rest of the brickwork is sound, it probably only needs a bit of
repointing. Which will be a lot cheaper and easier than many of the
other things that could be wrong with a property.

| I know the sensible thing is to walk away but I really do like this
| place, it's got a lot going for it, and I might be worrying about
| nothing.

I'd ask the vendor to put some tall potted plants in front of the
affected parts the day the surveyor's expected :-)

(IANAStructE)

Owain

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!

If you're looking for somebody here to say "yes, for goodness' sake get
it looked at by a professional" or "no, walk away, now!" then fine; but
are you really going to make the decision that you don't need a
structural survey, and are prepared to commit a 6-figure sum (I assume)
on buying the property, based on opinions in a newsgroup from persons
unknown who haven't even seen the place, however well-intentioned?!

Maybe the place has severe subsidence and is falling down; maybe the
foundations have moved a bit sometime but have been 100% stable for the
past 30 years, who knows? Get a structural engineer in if you're
seriously interested in the property.

Word of advice - don't get the structural survey done by your mortgage
lender, for 4 reasons: (a) it's ridiculously expensive (b) it's
performed by a surveyor, not a structural engineer (c) it's done by
someone acting primarily for the mortgage lender not you (d) it's
certainly possible the outcome maybe a recomendation to seek the opinion
of a structural engineer anyway. Instead, get the basic homebuyer's
survey done, and commission your own chartered structural engineer to go
in and provide a structural survey. The combined cost will almost
certainly be far less than if you went through the mortgage lender (eg I
had one done recently on a 2-bed house for about 200 GBP - peanuts
compared with the potential financial disaster of buying a totally duff
property).

If you play your cards right, you ought to be able to make an
appointment with the structural engineer and tag along for the
inspection - you can often get far more value for money if you get them
talking!


Just a word of caution - you will be none the wiser after reading the
surveyor's report. I have had it done twice - £600 a go (paid by employer,
so didn't care). Everything was mentioned: possible dump, possible
subsidence, roof would need to be replaced within a year or so, etc, etc.
There was never any dump (all the surveyors use this laughable £19.99 gadget
probably bought from QVC that make them look very proffesional to the
average housebuyer), 3 unrfelated roofers insisted that there was nothing
wrong with the roof (was still there 7 years later when we moved on), etc.
You get the message.

Oh, and regardless of what they find (or more importantly NOT find) - they
cannot be held to account about anything. You will simply be left with a
long list of sometihng along the lines of "signs of dump - consult a
specialist", "signs of movement - consult a structural engineer", etc.

My advice: unless there are some very obvious and serious problems, don't
bother at all. And in your case - find a structural engineer, pay him his
£40-50 hourley rate for a couple of hours, and ask him for his opinion. I
have done a similar exercise with a dump company before - much better IMHO.

HTH.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I've had a search but can't see anything really relating to the above.

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
an
snip
Any advice much appreciated.


This is not that unusual on 70 year old houses, it could be long standing or
recent.

The ONLY way you will get a worthwhile answer is with a full survey, not
with house a buyer's quick glance that will only report the crack and advise
a specialist report.

You may also find problems with getting a mortgage.

Can you afford this, does the asking price reflect this defect.

FWIW I bought a similar house 25years ago with a crack running the full
height of the flank wall, very cheep at auction because it was
un-mortgageable, I re-pointed the entire wall and sold in on without a
problem, and its still ok today without any further movement.

JoeJoe wrote:

"Lobster" wrote in message
...
wrote:

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!

If you're looking for somebody here to say "yes, for goodness' sake get
it looked at by a professional" or "no, walk away, now!" then fine; but
are you really going to make the decision that you don't need a
structural survey, and are prepared to commit a 6-figure sum (I assume)
on buying the property, based on opinions in a newsgroup from persons
unknown who haven't even seen the place, however well-intentioned?!

Just a word of caution - you will be none the wiser after reading the
surveyor's report. I have had it done twice - £600 a go (paid by employer,
so didn't care). Everything was mentioned: possible dump, possible
subsidence, roof would need to be replaced within a year or so, etc, etc.
There was never any dump (all the surveyors use this laughable £19.99 gadget
probably bought from QVC that make them look very proffesional to the
average housebuyer), 3 unrfelated roofers insisted that there was nothing
wrong with the roof (was still there 7 years later when we moved on), etc.
You get the message.

Oh, and regardless of what they find (or more importantly NOT find) - they
cannot be held to account about anything. You will simply be left with a
long list of sometihng along the lines of "signs of dump - consult a
specialist", "signs of movement - consult a structural engineer", etc.

My advice: unless there are some very obvious and serious problems, don't
bother at all. And in your case - find a structural engineer, pay him his
£40-50 hourley rate for a couple of hours, and ask him for his opinion. I
have done a similar exercise with a dump company before - much better IMHO.

My solicitor was suggesting, some time ago, that I should have a
full survey done for a place I was buying. I gave a similar
argument, that the report would be so full of caveats that there
would be great difficulty in taking action in the event of
trouble, and selecting a surveyor based on the adequacy of their
insurance seemed to be rather missing the point. "Not
necessarily" he replied "We have a number of such cases on our
hands at the moment." At which juncture I felt that he had made
my point for me.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

Lobster wrote:

Word of advice - don't get the structural survey done by your mortgage
lender, for 4 reasons: (a) it's ridiculously expensive (b) it's
performed by a surveyor, not a structural engineer (c) it's done by
someone acting primarily for the mortgage lender not you (d) it's
certainly possible the outcome maybe a recomendation to seek the opinion
of a structural engineer anyway. Instead, get the basic homebuyer's
survey done, and commission your own chartered structural engineer to go
in and provide a structural survey. The combined cost will almost

Sounds like a good plan. Would you actually want a homebuyers survey at
all though in the circumstances though? I would have thought if you have
a report from a structural engineer, then just a basic valuation survey
would be more than enough for the mortgage lender rather than a
homebuyers survey.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I've had a search but can't see anything really relating to the above.

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
and have to walk away and get survey on another property etc...

I know the sensible thing is to walk away but I really do like this
place, it's got a lot going for it, and I might be worrying about
nothing.

1930's brick-exterior (not rendered) semidetatched in Rushden,
Northants, UK. It's had Aluminium D/G fitted.

Property seems sound throughout, apart from one thing: a stepped crack
from the lower right corner of the large window on the front of the
downstairs. Steps along the edge of the bricks, for about 6-7 courses,
heading diagonally downwards at about 45deg angle, toward the left, so
toward the middle of beneath the window. Not as far as the DPC - it
peters out before then, not even hairline to it. Looks to be 1mm or
less for the majority, but there does seem to be a fair bit of
weathering of the mortar causing larger pockets of gaps in a couple of
places - up to about 4mm max I guess.

Checked inside and no sign it's gone through (believed cavity wall) but
then inside is wallpapered with at least one layer, possibly more.

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!

Most of the other houses in the road are of a different style, with
rendering to part/all of the walls, so it's not easy to compare with
similar aged properties.

Any advice much appreciated.


Only a 1mm gap? Eeeeh, you're lucky! My house has a 6mm gap on the east and
west
side and the north wall has sunk by more than that, so the doorframes are no
longer
rectangular ( you only notice though when you fit new doors ). My house is
on clay, and
'30's houses do not have such deep foundations as more modern houses. I had
a look at a few houses in the neighbourhood and found that a full 50% had
cracks that
had been repaired.
Is there too much greenery planted nearby, a tree perhaps or a Virginia
creeper or
suchlike? I believe Willow and Poplar are particularly bad trees to have
near the house,
sucking all the moisture out of the soil and causing subsidence. Also the
hotter, drier
summers of thenineties have been blamed for increased subsidence on clay
soil. My
guess is that unless your 1mm crack appeared recently, and was caused by
something
like an undiagnosed burst water pipe, then it's nothing to worry about. The
house won't
fall down or anything.
Noone can tell you with complete certainty that there isn't some awful
secret that this
1mm crack is hiding, but a great many of the householders in my vicinity
just repair their
cracks when they become unignorable and carry on. Tedious, but almost goes
with the
territory on old houses on clay soil. I am not an expert, these are just my
observations.

NB; Clay soil is identifiable by the ability to form it into plasticine-like
blobs, at least
when it is slightly damp, and it will show a shiny surface when such a blob
is sheared
in half with a fingernail. Get your soil sample from an area not regularly
gardened.

Andy.

In message . com,
writes
Hi,

I've had a search but can't see anything really relating to the above.

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
and have to walk away and get survey on another property etc...

If you are going to buy somewhere, you must have the funds for a survey?
What happens if the house which you eventually think is OK, is condemned
by the survey, (or merely the survey changes your mind about buying), do
you not have the funds for a survey on another house?

If you only have the funds for one survey, you probably dont have the
funds to buy and run a house - you will be amazed at how much more it
costs, than you think!

I would suggest that you think very seriously about what you are doing,
rather than realise that you cant really afford it just before
exchanging contracts.


I know the sensible thing is to walk away but I really do like this
place, it's got a lot going for it, and I might be worrying about
nothing.

1930's brick-exterior (not rendered) semidetatched in Rushden,
Northants, UK. It's had Aluminium D/G fitted.

Property seems sound throughout,

As a first time buyer, how it seems to you, means very little. A
surveyor will probably point out lots of areas where it might not be as
sound as you think......

apart from one thing: a stepped crack
from the lower right corner of the large window on the front of the
downstairs. Steps along the edge of the bricks, for about 6-7 courses,
heading diagonally downwards at about 45deg angle, toward the left, so
toward the middle of beneath the window. Not as far as the DPC - it
peters out before then, not even hairline to it. Looks to be 1mm or
less for the majority, but there does seem to be a fair bit of
weathering of the mortar causing larger pockets of gaps in a couple of
places - up to about 4mm max I guess.


The solution is to have a structural engineers report done - which is
not a full structural survey, and doesnt cost as much.

However, a quick drawing show that the forces are either lifting the
right hand end of the window away from the ground, or causing the
brickwork under the window to sink away from the window. Serious??
Maybe, or maybe not.

Checked inside and no sign it's gone through (believed cavity wall) but
then inside is wallpapered with at least one layer, possibly more.

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!


Many people would say you should run away, very very fast, but you wont
know until you have it investigated by an expert - not a surveyor, but a
structural engineer.

Most of the other houses in the road are of a different style, with
rendering to part/all of the walls, so it's not easy to compare with
similar aged properties.

Any advice much appreciated.


--
Richard Faulkner

In message , Mark
writes
The ONLY way you will get a worthwhile answer is with a full survey,

Mark, in situations like this, lay people tend to recommend a Full
Structural Survey and, whilst not necessarily wrong, neither is it
necessarily the best advice, or even good advice.

I would warn anyone that, even if you pay a fortune for a Full
Structural Survey, if the surveyor has any concerns about the structure,
he/she will insist on a Structural Engineers Report.

If you have your own concerns about the structure, it is far better to
get a Structural Engineers Report done first, for obvious reasons.

not with house a buyer's quick glance that will only report the crack
and advise a specialist report.

Ditto with both a basic valuation, and a full structural survey.

--
Richard Faulkner

You cannot afford to take the risk. Walk away and find another property. You
have to let common sense prevail over the emotional wish to buy the
property.

Peter Crosland

John Rumm wrote:
Lobster wrote:

Word of advice - don't get the structural survey done by your mortgage
lender, for 4 reasons: (a) it's ridiculously expensive (b) it's
performed by a surveyor, not a structural engineer (c) it's done by
someone acting primarily for the mortgage lender not you (d) it's
certainly possible the outcome maybe a recomendation to seek the opinion
of a structural engineer anyway. Instead, get the basic homebuyer's
survey done, and commission your own chartered structural engineer to go
in and provide a structural survey. The combined cost will almost


Sounds like a good plan. Would you actually want a homebuyers survey at
all though in the circumstances though? I would have thought if you have
a report from a structural engineer, then just a basic valuation survey
would be more than enough for the mortgage lender rather than a
homebuyers survey.

That's what I meant actually - maybe I've got my vocabulary wrong, but I
was indeed suggesting that the OP had the cheapest, bottom-of-the-range
survey carried out for the mortgage lender.

David

wrote:
First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
and have to walk away and get survey on another property etc...

Make an offer subject to survey. Negotiate the price down a little to
cover the cost of your survey.

Then contact your favourite surveyor and ask him to do an initial verbal
assessment on the property - they will take such an instruction and
because most of their cost in providing a formal survey is filling in
paperwork you save big time if you just get their verbal opinion without
it having to be written up.

If the surveyor reckons there's a problem which needs more thorough
investigation then you have the choice of bunging more money at it to
get it inspected properly - or walking away.

If he says no problem then you can discuss with him further options with
respect to acquiring written confirmation. You don't actually need the
full SP on the whole house - you could ask him to report on the cracked
wall if you really wanted to.

A verbal report will cost you very little. And I know from personal
experience that if you use a surveyor for some follow-on work (like when
you find another property which you commit to) they will consider
discounting the charge for the verbal assessment from their next bill.
So the end result is that this could cost you nothing.

What you do NOT do is proceed to purchase this house without having it
checked over. You surely don't expect a mortgage company to loan you
money to buy without it getting an inspection to prove that it's worth
what you reckon it is?

Andrew

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

I've had a search but can't see anything really relating to the above.

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
and have to walk away and get survey on another property etc...

Ignore the 'nothing to worry about' brigade.

Listen to the 'structural engineer' brigade.

We looked at a house yesterday (from the outside) and noticed that the lines
of pointing (i.e. the run of the bricks) were a little bit 'wavy'.

Coincidentally one of the houses across the street had a property
maintenance company there putting a large Acro prop up in the doorway. Pure
chance we saw this.

So - no cracks, no obvious signs of major problems, just a wavy line in the
bricks.
Reflected in all the other properties in this and the facing facing
terraces, though.

The risks are not good.

In your case the best you get is a house which doesn't need any major work,
but is stretching your budget to the limits.

From there it goes downhill.

Consider the cost of underpinning loaded onto a maximum mortgage with the
interest rates risen 3% higher after a year, and a house worth significantly
less than you paid for it unless you get this work done.

Just consider the cost of having your mortgage application refused.

How lucky do you feel?

Cheers
Dave R

wrote:
Hi,

I've had a search but can't see anything really relating to the above.

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
and have to walk away and get survey on another property etc...

I know the sensible thing is to walk away but I really do like this
place, it's got a lot going for it, and I might be worrying about
nothing.

1930's brick-exterior (not rendered) semidetatched in Rushden,
Northants, UK. It's had Aluminium D/G fitted.

Property seems sound throughout, apart from one thing: a stepped crack
from the lower right corner of the large window on the front of the
downstairs. Steps along the edge of the bricks, for about 6-7 courses,
heading diagonally downwards at about 45deg angle, toward the left, so
toward the middle of beneath the window. Not as far as the DPC - it
peters out before then, not even hairline to it. Looks to be 1mm or
less for the majority, but there does seem to be a fair bit of
weathering of the mortar causing larger pockets of gaps in a couple of
places - up to about 4mm max I guess.

Checked inside and no sign it's gone through (believed cavity wall) but
then inside is wallpapered with at least one layer, possibly more.

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm worrying
about nothing or not!

Most of the other houses in the road are of a different style, with
rendering to part/all of the walls, so it's not easy to compare with
similar aged properties.

Any advice much appreciated.

1st time buyer, cracks in the wall ? walk away.



RT

In message , Peter
Crosland writes
You cannot afford to take the risk. Walk away and find another property. You
have to let common sense prevail over the emotional wish to buy the
property.

I fully support the above recommendations but will tell the tale of my
Aunts house for interest....

Built for my grandfather around 1930 in brick on a bit of sand. By the
time I knew the property in the '50s one wing had developed a noticeable
lean and the windows could not be opened. None of this bothered my Aunt
but it became my problem when we came to sell the house.

Luckily for us the buyers were prepared to carry out underpinning and
the sale went through. I stayed in touch and learned that the likely
cause was a broken drain carrying kitchen sink waste.

Apparently the builder had misread the plans and put the kitchen in the
wrong place. Rather than install an extra inspection pit he had fitted a
90 degree bend in the waste pipe.

My grandfather was an enthusiastic DIYer with the consequence that he
*rodded* a hole in the bend!

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Peter Crosland wrote:
You cannot afford to take the risk. Walk away and find another property. You
have to let common sense prevail over the emotional wish to buy the
property.

If the OP keeps doing that he'll never buy a house, because there's no
such thing as a perfect house. Certainly not even a new build, sadly.

Owain

wrote:
Hi,

I've had a search but can't see anything really relating to the
above.

First time buyer, seen a property I really like, but don't have the
funds to get a survey done on this one, find out it's got a big prob,
and have to walk away and get survey on another property etc...

I know the sensible thing is to walk away but I really do like this
place, it's got a lot going for it, and I might be worrying about
nothing.

1930's brick-exterior (not rendered) semidetatched in Rushden,
Northants, UK. It's had Aluminium D/G fitted.

Property seems sound throughout, apart from one thing: a stepped
crack
from the lower right corner of the large window on the front of the
downstairs. Steps along the edge of the bricks, for about 6-7
courses,
heading diagonally downwards at about 45deg angle, toward the left,
so
toward the middle of beneath the window. Not as far as the DPC - it
peters out before then, not even hairline to it. Looks to be 1mm or
less for the majority, but there does seem to be a fair bit of
weathering of the mortar causing larger pockets of gaps in a couple
of
places - up to about 4mm max I guess.

Checked inside and no sign it's gone through (believed cavity wall)
but
then inside is wallpapered with at least one layer, possibly more.

Any views on this at all? I know it's going to be expensive to get a
homebuyers survey done then find out I need to get deeper
investigation
(or full struct from outset), so I'm trying to find out if I'm
worrying
about nothing or not!

Most of the other houses in the road are of a different style, with
rendering to part/all of the walls, so it's not easy to compare with
similar aged properties.

Any advice much appreciated.


Really cant add anything more re the advice given, but I can put some
perspective on it: numerous old houses have cracks like this, and in
99% of cases the situation is very minor.

Put it this way, if you owned already it would not be cause to get a
struc eng in, the logical action would be repoint and observe, and only
if it recracks would expert advice be needed.

And in terms of risk of falling down, it isnt. But these things do
scare buyers and lenders.


NT

It is a repossession, so the vendors in this case are not the previous
occupyers, I'd imagine (but could be wrong) that they would not be
prepared to get such work done in this circumstance?

Indeed I don't - the question is that it seems like a really good house
*apart* from what may or may not be a problem with the crack.

If I get it investigated fully then I'm in the position of having spent
a LOT of money to find that it either is or isn't a problem. If it
isn't, then great - I've got a stunning house that I really like. If
it is a problem, then I've just blown many hundreds of pounds and have
nothing to show for it, and am then going to have to find more money
for subsequent survey(s) on other properties etc.

That is my quandry, and I'm after some advice as to how serious the
problem sounds, whether, as a cautious first time buyer I'm worrying
more than I should about this, or am right to be concerned!

I have photos but not the ability to upload them to the web till
tonight. I'll post links to them once they're online, since a picture
speaks a thousand words and all that.

Thanks, that's the sort of advice I was looking for - well aware you
lot haven't seen it, may or may not be able to offer any advice anyway,
just wanted to bounce the problem and ideas around people that may have
done this before!

The advice for the structural vs survey and me vs mortgage is good
advice - a pitfall I may have fallen into by thinking they would know a
better structural engineering company than me (I'd be taking pot luck).

Agree re the tag-along, I'd almost certainly do that because I do
understand how structures work and stresses and engineering type stuff
quite well but not to the extent that I can make judgement calls
(principles but no experience!).

Oh, absolutely not. This house seems to have a lot going for it, which
is why I've not already walked away.

And no, I don't expect a mortgage co to loan me without getting an
inspection - but, the way I read it is that if they don't see it as a
problem and then it turns out that it is, that's not their problem but
mine, and it'll be me solely responsible for footing the cost of the
repairs.

Bit of pointing, not a problem. Underpinning, way out of my
capabilities to finance.

Thanks for the info on the verbal from structural, this is sounding
like the best way to go with it - I have no objections to paying out
100-150 quid or so for a strutural engineer to take a look, and I
wouldn't require a written report if I am present to discuss it and
talk it through. Doing that would mean I know that much earlier if the
crack is walk-away or not-a-problem, and I'm willing to then go ahead
with the cost of the homebuyers etc for the rest of the place.

Yep, the place I rent at the moment (which is considerably more than
the mortgage) is much older, and I'm well used to living in a place
that has lots of cracks internally in the plasterboard,
not-completely-adequate floor support (I'm the first floor of a
two-floor converted stables/coach-house from the 1870/1880's), and some
really quite large (2cm) cracks in the external that suggest the
re-roofing may have placed additional load on the roof which is slowly
splaying the walls, and one place where the corner brick pillar has
been damaged by faulty guttering and badly damaged by water as well as
the additional load from the roof bearing on it!

If I already owned this place I would wait and see what the crack did,
but I don't feel confident that I can go ahead and place myself in that
situation without knowing the behaviour of it.

I'd have had no qualms about buying my current place before the
re-roofing, because the cracks were present but not opening. Since the
re-roofing, they are slowly growing and on a week by week basis this
isn't noticeable but over the 12 years I've been there I know how they
act, and the last 7 they have opened up and are still opening. No way
I'd buy it now without a full structural, and I have a feeling that
would come back with requirements to have a LOT of work done, including
a reroof with lighter weight tiles!

In message , "[news]"
writes
1st time buyer, cracks in the wall ? walk away.

With this advice, first time buyers would never buy a house - not even a
new one!!

--
Richard Faulkner

Richard Faulkner wrote:
In message , "[news]"
writes
1st time buyer, cracks in the wall ? walk away.

With this advice, first time buyers would never buy a house - not even a
new one!!

are you suggesting that all houses have cracks in the front wall ?

don't you think a 1st time buyer would be better off at least looking
for a house without cracks in it ?

judging from the photo posted just now I would suggest that the only
way to repair and disguise the fact that a repair had been effected
would be to render the front elevation or repoint the whole front and
with those textured bricks, repointing will leave it looking messy at best
unless the OP did it themselves and mixed the mortar perfectly each time
or pays someone upwards of £40 m/2 to do the same.

personally, if it was me, I'd look for a house without cracks in the front
elevation. they do exist, I've seen em.


RT

I'd be quite prepared to mix and repoint myself, no it'd not be a
perfect match, but from what I've read on this sort of thing repointing
if the crack is moving is a bad move as it could cause it to open
further (mortar stops it closing if it's a cyclical opening/closing due
to thermal/groundwater cause) etc.

It needs repointing to stop water getting in. If the crack isn't on
the move then that's fine. Rendering the whole front would be a shame
given the textured bricks. All the pointing apart from this crack is
sound and in good condition.

There are houses without cracks in the front, but I am limited to a
select few areas by salary multiples and stupidly high house prices.
Lucky enough that my job is flexible enough to permit me to live in
this particular area (well connected to major roads and reasonably
central in one plane to the area I work).

Property market is such that I can't afford a non-leasehold place (and
often not even them) in almost all of the southeast, hence looking at
older properties of this sort of age, with bigger floorspace than the
modern shoeboxes. Compromises are being made on a lot of things, and I
see no reason to dismiss this place out of hand because it has a crack
in it, given the age, if the crack isn't actually anythign to worry
about overly.

If it's purely small movement that occurred some time ago, and it's not
ongoing, then it's more cosmetic than anything else, and I'm not
bothered by that in the slightest. The place I'm looking for is
tattier than most, needing internal redec, with a working GCH system,
functional kitchen/bathroom that's not more than a couple of decades
old. I can't afford, and don't want, a perfect property in perfect
decorative order with an immaculate garden because a) that's boring,
and b) as I said, I can't afford them.

Most of the other houses I've found are victorian terraces which have a
whole gamut of other potential problems, aren't as suitable with their
steep narrow staircases for parents that are now getting on in years
for visiting (would be living 100 miles from them, so do intend they
come stay, and would prefer they don't break necks each time!). Other
semi's require vast amounts of updating to be in my price range (no
GCH, antique but not in pleasing way kitchen/bathroom etc) and are also
smaller in terms of sheer floor space in rooms.

If it weren't for the fact that this one is right in so many ways I
would have discounted it by now, as it is, it is right in all ways but
this one niggle.

In article . com,
" says...
snip

Most of the other houses in the road are of a different style, with
rendering to part/all of the walls, so it's not easy to compare with
similar aged properties.

Do you know why this house was built differently from the others?
Was there something else on the site, did the previous house fall
into a large hole? There was bombing in Rushden during WWII - are
you sure that the house is pre-war?

Word of advice - don't get the structural survey done by your mortgage
lender, for 4 reasons: (a) it's ridiculously expensive (b) it's
performed by a surveyor, not a structural engineer (c) it's done by
someone acting primarily for the mortgage lender not you

Remember the mortgage lender will be effectively owning the house until the
loan is repaid. That being the case, they should be just as interested in
making sure the survey is carried out thoroughly and accurately.

In article .com,
"Velvet" says...
I'd be quite prepared to mix and repoint myself, no it'd not be a
perfect match, but from what I've read on this sort of thing repointing
if the crack is moving is a bad move as it could cause it to open
further (mortar stops it closing if it's a cyclical opening/closing due
to thermal/groundwater cause) etc.

Buy the house, watch the crack for a year. If it moves then maybe
repoint at the time of year that it's at its narrowest. I think if
you scrape out the old mortar, mix it with some lime putty and stick
it back in that it would blend well after a while, but someone will
probably be along in a minute to tell me it's a stupid idea.

In message , RedOnRed
wrote
Word of advice - don't get the structural survey done by your mortgage
lender, for 4 reasons: (a) it's ridiculously expensive (b) it's
performed by a surveyor, not a structural engineer (c) it's done by
someone acting primarily for the mortgage lender not you

Remember the mortgage lender will be effectively owning the house until the
loan is repaid. That being the case, they should be just as interested in
making sure the survey is carried out thoroughly and accurately.


The person who takes out the loan is responsible for repaying it. If
the house subsequently sells for less than the amount outstanding the
borrower will still owe money. With interest payments and a falling
market, if a person defaults on a mortgage the amount owed could be much
more than the property is worth.

The survey that banks/building societies carry out are to make sure that
the property is not overvalued i.e. you are not attempting to borrow
£400,000 on something worth £200,000. They probably also take into
account the amount that they could get back from the insurance that they
insist that the borrower takes out.

--
Alan

Velvet wrote:
I'd be quite prepared to mix and repoint myself, no it'd not be a
perfect match, but from what I've read on this sort of thing repointing
if the crack is moving is a bad move as it could cause it to open
further (mortar stops it closing if it's a cyclical opening/closing due
to thermal/groundwater cause) etc.

It needs repointing to stop water getting in. If the crack isn't on
the move then that's fine. Rendering the whole front would be a shame
given the textured bricks.

you'd get a great key

All the pointing apart from this crack is
sound and in good condition.

There are houses without cracks in the front, but I am limited to a
select few areas by salary multiples and stupidly high house prices.
Lucky enough that my job is flexible enough to permit me to live in
this particular area (well connected to major roads and reasonably
central in one plane to the area I work).

Property market is such that I can't afford a non-leasehold place (and
often not even them) in almost all of the southeast, hence looking at
older properties of this sort of age, with bigger floorspace than the
modern shoeboxes. Compromises are being made on a lot of things, and I
see no reason to dismiss this place out of hand because it has a crack
in it, given the age, if the crack isn't actually anythign to worry
about overly.

If it's purely small movement that occurred some time ago, and it's not
ongoing, then it's more cosmetic than anything else, and I'm not
bothered by that in the slightest. The place I'm looking for is
tattier than most, needing internal redec, with a working GCH system,
functional kitchen/bathroom that's not more than a couple of decades
old. I can't afford, and don't want, a perfect property in perfect
decorative order with an immaculate garden because a) that's boring,
and b) as I said, I can't afford them.

Most of the other houses I've found are victorian terraces which have a
whole gamut of other potential problems, aren't as suitable with their
steep narrow staircases for parents that are now getting on in years
for visiting (would be living 100 miles from them, so do intend they
come stay, and would prefer they don't break necks each time!). Other
semi's require vast amounts of updating to be in my price range (no
GCH, antique but not in pleasing way kitchen/bathroom etc) and are also
smaller in terms of sheer floor space in rooms.

If it weren't for the fact that this one is right in so many ways I
would have discounted it by now, as it is, it is right in all ways but
this one niggle.

as I and others have advised you can either walk away or get a full survey done
with particular instruction from you to the surveyor regarding the crack and their
professional indemnity insurance should their advice be misleading and you find
yourself having to sue them. as you are aware, it all costs money but you seem
clued up enough about the crack to make a decision either way.

great fun this house buying lark, innit ;-)



RT

There are a variety of styles throughout the whole street. The
majority are 2/3 bed semi's with rounded bow-window fronts, but variety
of porch styles between them. A couple are roofed differently, there's
a couple of this style (by a couple I mean 2 sets of a semi-detatched
pair) - it just seems to be variation for the sake of variation. Some
are spaced far enough apart to allow for very narrow access to a garage
at rear of house, but not wide enough for even a small modern car.
Almost all have no off-street parking.

It has to be said that at first glance these appear 'boxy' and 'hard'
compared to the bow-fronted ones, I can see how they might be less
attractive to buyers when as bare as this one is, but all they need is
softening with a clematis rambling up trellis on a wall, and some
sympathetic planting in the front garden instead of the rectangular
path, rectangular patch of grass, rectangular wall standing isolated
etc etc.

Lack of render is a positive in my case - I'd much rather not have the
hassle of painting rendering, and the brick is attractive in it's own
right. Plus, I've seen rendering on my parents place (pre-war) and
it's a never ending struggle against cracks and bits falling off
corners!

All the info that I can find suggest it's 1930's - floorboards to the
downstairs not concrete floor etc, though the pantry and understairs is
concrete or tiled to the floor and a slightly lower level. Obviously
I've not pulled a board up - there are carpets down so had to be fairly
careful in what and how far I pulled them up to establish condition of
floor around the front wall/rads/corners when checking for signs of
damp etc.

Being a repo property though means I do have the ability to at least
take a corner of carpet up etc, and poke around a bit deeper than with
owners hovering - I want to know what I'm buying, not that what I'm
buying looks immaculate on the surface.

You'll have guessed by now that I'm really loathe to walk away from it
:-)

I think I'm going to have to go with getting an engineer to look at it.
Whether that's an hour or two for verbal advice whilst looking at it,
or biting the bullet and having a HBS with SSI into the crack I'm not
sure yet. More mulling over needed.

I've read and digested an entire textbook on building defects this
weekend to better arm myself with background and understanding on
foundations and movement and possible causes of it, and as a bonus now
got a good understanding of wall, floor, inernal walls, roof, drain
construction etc and all the things that can go wrong. Not to mention
damp, condensation, DPC methods, etc!

Head reeling a little bit but I feel it's going to be worth it if only
for being better armed with what to look out for in other properties if
this one doesn't go through or I walk away from it - finding house
buying very very interesting, yes - exciting yet worrying, but I've
always wanted to know how things work/are built (probably another
reason why I'd rather investigate than dismiss) - pays dividends later
when you want to do something/change something/fix something :-)

Many thanks for all the help from you lot, it's much appreicated.

Velvet wrote:
You'll have guessed by now that I'm really loathe to walk away from it
:-)

I think I'm going to have to go with getting an engineer to look at it.
Whether that's an hour or two for verbal advice whilst looking at it,
or biting the bullet and having a HBS with SSI into the crack I'm not
sure yet. More mulling over needed.

mull this: when I first started out I made an appointment with a series
of surveyors (three I think) all a few hours apart on the same day at
a house I was thinking of buying.

I told them all I was a complete novice and threw some daft questions
at them and buried a few serious ones in amongst them. all three were
happy to wax lyrical about their subject and show off their superior
knowledge to a total newbie. I got quite a few questions in before saying
I'd let them know as to if I'd be instructing them and told them I hadn't
decided to go ahead with the purchase. I think all three cottoned on but
only one of them was bold enough to issue an invoice which was
subsequently ignored

I think if you have a bumpy jumper you'll do even better ;-) good luck.



RT

If I already owned this place I would wait and see what the crack did,
but I don't feel confident that I can go ahead and place myself in that
situation without knowing the behaviour of it.


It might be stating the obvious but the decision you make will have
consequences for many years which is why you have to look at the whole
process in as an objective a way as possible. This is not easy to do as many
people know. Nevertheless, it will be one of the biggest financial
transactions you will ever make. If it does turn out to be a serious problem
then the consequences can blight your life for years. Any property that has
signs of subsidence, or has been underpinned, will be very hard, and often
impossible, to insure. Even if the work has been done competently insurers
will just refuse to quote, and once you have had a refusal you must
disclose this and then no other insurer will do so either. How do I know?
Well my house was underpinned fifteen years ago and has shown no sign of any
further problem, but even the insurer who specified, and paid for, the work
will not cover it. That is why you should walk away now.

Peter Crosland

Velvet wrote:

Thanks for the info on the verbal from structural, this is sounding
like the best way to go with it - I have no objections to paying out
100-150 quid or so for a strutural engineer to take a look, and I
wouldn't require a written report if I am present to discuss it and
talk it through.

Another vote for this course of action: as I've wittered at length
previously, we had a surveyor on a place 20? years back whose verbal
report saved us a very expensive mistake; dealing with young second-time
buyers meant he was perfickly happy to take a small fee for a verbal
report rather'n write it all down.

Stefek

On Mon, 2 May 2005 02:09:08 +0100, Richard Faulkner
wrote:

If you only have the funds for one survey, you probably dont have the
funds to buy and run a house - you will be amazed at how much more it
costs, than you think!

I would suggest that you think very seriously about what you are doing,
rather than realise that you cant really afford it just before
exchanging contracts.

A cautionary tale ...

In the late 1980s I suffered a chronic attack of the nesting instinct
and I needed a home of my own. By 1989 I had got myself a job where I
could just about afford a mortgage - just as the property boom came to
an end

One year after I bought my house, interest rates were 14.5% AND a
house down the road with a larger garden was sold for 15% less than I
had paid for mine

Anna


~~ Anna Kettle, Suffolk, England
|""""| ~ Lime plaster repairs
/ ^^ \ // Freehand modelling in lime: overmantels, pargeting etc
|____| www.kettlenet.co.uk 01359 230642

The person who takes out the loan is responsible for repaying it. If the
house subsequently sells for less than the amount outstanding the borrower
will still owe money. With interest payments and a falling market, if a
person defaults on a mortgage the amount owed could be much more than the
property is worth.

The survey that banks/building societies carry out are to make sure that
the property is not overvalued i.e. you are not attempting to borrow
£400,000 on something worth £200,000. They probably also take into account
the amount that they could get back from the insurance that they insist
that the borrower takes out.

--
Alan

Know all that, but as I said, the lender effectively owns the property,
regardless of equity, until the loan is repaid. Just ask someone that's been
repossesed.

The point i'm making is that the subbing surveyor for the lender may not
necassarily be blase about doing it.