So the burner wouldnt fire up, odd I thought...checked everything...finally
went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled to the top 5 months
ago... checked the filter...all good..hmmm lets see how much oil we've used
in the past 5 months....YOIKS!!! empty!!!!!!!..WHAT???...cant be..checked
again...yip empty. No way we could have used that ammount of oil.
Heres my question, could we have a leak?..if so how would I find it?..Should
I dig up the pipe feeding the boiler, approx 50m run. Are there any
detectors sniffer dogs deviners you can recomend??..

waiting in anticipation for any suggestions...

Thanks all
Dave W.

You need to tell your insurers ASAP because you are likely to have a large
bill for clearing it pu.

Peter Crosland

Peter Crosland wrote:
You need to tell your insurers ASAP because you are likely to have a large
bill for clearing it pu.

That's just foolishness. He needs to first establish whether there is a
leak.

While a leak is one possible explanation, there are several others. How
much oil do you normally use over the winter? Could your oil have been
stolen? Could the tank not have been filled up when you thought it was?


--
Grunff

On Fri, 22 Apr 2005 21:38:11 +0100, Dave Walsh wrote:

went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled to the top 5
months ago...

It's winter (still ground frost the last few mornings, patches of snow
still on the fells), we are over half way through 2000l delivered mid
Feb, thats after 2000l delivered beginning Nov (ie about 5 months ago)
are you *sure* you haven't used it? But consumption is falling and the
remaining 1000ish litres should last through the summer to
October/November with a bit of luck.

If you have had a leak keep quiet 'cause if the Enviroment Agency get
to hear about it they'll want it cleaned up. Removing and disposal of
contaminated soil isn't cheap.

--
Cheers
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
Peter Crosland wrote:
You need to tell your insurers ASAP because you are likely to have a
large bill for clearing it pu.

That's just foolishness. He needs to first establish whether there is a
leak.

While a leak is one possible explanation, there are several others. How
much oil do you normally use over the winter? Could your oil have been
stolen? Could the tank not have been filled up when you thought it was?


--
Grunff

All good questions..I dont think its possible to use 2500 litres in 5
months, it would only be on during the evenings for about 6hrs. I doubt the
oil was stolen as the neighbours would have spotted something, they used to
own the house and are good people. The oil supplier is a reputible company.
All of these went through my mind aswell. There are no visible signs of a
leak but I wonder should I dig up the feed line anyway. I guess I should to
be on the safe side.

Thanks again for your time
Dave W

Dave Walsh wrote:

All good questions..I dont think its possible to use 2500 litres in 5
months, it would only be on during the evenings for about 6hrs.

Ok, you can probably rule that one out.


I doubt the
oil was stolen as the neighbours would have spotted something, they used to
own the house and are good people.

I don't know your exact situation, but is it really inconceivable that
someone could have stolen it without your neighbours noticing?


The oil supplier is a reputible company.

But mistakes can happen. Did you personally see a full tank 5 months
ago, or are you assuming it was filled to the top? Could they have put
in 1200 litres by mistake?


All of these went through my mind aswell. There are no visible signs of a
leak but I wonder should I dig up the feed line anyway. I guess I should to
be on the safe side.

Buried oil pipes don't burst of their own accord. If you have a leak,
then it's in one of these place:

1. At the tank
2. At the tank - pipe join
3. At any other joins
4. Somewhere where the pipe has been damaged. Does the run go under the
road or drive? Think about places where the pipe could possibly have
been subjected to mechanical stress.

If you've really lost 1000 litres + of oil over a period of 5 months,
you should have noticed a *big* puddle, and a strong smell. Oil floats.

When we bought our current house, there was an area near the house where
several tanks had leaked over several years. I doubt the total quantity
was over a few hundred litres, but it had spread over a large area, and
was quite noticeable.


--
Grunff

Dave Walsh wrote:

So the burner wouldnt fire up, odd I thought...checked everything...finally
went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled to the top 5 months
ago... checked the filter...all good..hmmm lets see how much oil we've used
in the past 5 months....YOIKS!!! empty!!!!!!!..WHAT???...cant be..checked
again...yip empty. No way we could have used that ammount of oil.
Heres my question, could we have a leak?..if so how would I find it?..Should
I dig up the pipe feeding the boiler, approx 50m run. Are there any
detectors sniffer dogs deviners you can recomend??..

waiting in anticipation for any suggestions...

Thanks all
Dave W.


2500 liters lasts me about 4 months in winter.

Dave Walsh wrote:

"Grunff" wrote in message
...

Peter Crosland wrote:

You need to tell your insurers ASAP because you are likely to have a
large bill for clearing it pu.

That's just foolishness. He needs to first establish whether there is a
leak.

While a leak is one possible explanation, there are several others. How
much oil do you normally use over the winter? Could your oil have been
stolen? Could the tank not have been filled up when you thought it was?


--
Grunff


All good questions..I dont think its possible to use 2500 litres in 5
months, it would only be on during the evenings for about 6hrs.

Its very possible to use 2500 liters in 2 months actually.

If the weather is cold and the house is not top spec insulation wise.

If your boiler is averaging 15kW for every day for 6hrs, thats 90Kwh a
day. or 9 litres a day. Assuming a decent boiler. If its crap it could
use twice that say 18 liters a day

multiply that by 152 days and you are over the 2500 liters no sweat.

also there schristmas, and weekends...bet you have it on more then - and
hotr baths and showers...



I doubt the
oil was stolen as the neighbours would have spotted something, they used to
own the house and are good people. The oil supplier is a reputible company.
All of these went through my mind aswell. There are no visible signs of a
leak but I wonder should I dig up the feed line anyway. I guess I should to
be on the safe side.

If you can't smell it there is no leak. I can smell less than an egg cup
full of kerosene - I had a small weeping joint and the place stank for
DAYS after I fixed it.


Thanks again for your time
Dave W

"Dave Walsh" wrote in message
...
So the burner wouldnt fire up, odd I thought...checked
everything...finally
went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled to the top 5 months
ago... checked the filter...all good..hmmm lets see how much oil we've
used
in the past 5 months....YOIKS!!! empty!!!!!!!..WHAT???...cant be..checked
again...yip empty. No way we could have used that ammount of oil.
Heres my question, could we have a leak?..if so how would I find
it?..Should
I dig up the pipe feeding the boiler, approx 50m run. Are there any
detectors sniffer dogs deviners you can recomend??..

waiting in anticipation for any suggestions...

I doubt if you actually have a leak but to prove it either way call in an
OFTEC registered engineer and ask him to run a pressure test on the oil
line. That will prove if the line is sealed or not.

I bet it was just the heatings been on more than you think though. Faulty
timer controller operating overnight or in the day perhaps ?

"Dave Walsh" wrote in message
...
So the burner wouldnt fire up, odd I thought...checked
everything...finally went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled
to the top 5 months ago... checked the filter...all good..hmmm lets see
how much oil we've used in the past 5 months....YOIKS!!!
empty!!!!!!!..WHAT???...cant be..checked again...yip empty. No way we
could have used that ammount of oil.
Heres my question, could we have a leak?..if so how would I find
it?..Should I dig up the pipe feeding the boiler, approx 50m run. Are
there any detectors sniffer dogs deviners you can recomend??..

waiting in anticipation for any suggestions...

Thanks all
Dave W.



For a start you could disconnect and cap (or close any service or firestop
valve at the boiler end) then disconnect the pipe at the tank end. Make up a
connection to the pipe end with a tee and fit a manometer or pressure gauge
to one branch and a pressurisation means to the other. There are gas test
kits available for "dry testing" which would be suitable and would cost a
few pounds to buy but be a lot less hassle than digging up your pipe run.
If you carry out a drop test on the pipe you will instantly see if it is
sound or not. You will not need to empty out the liquid to carry out a
pressure test.
If there is no drop in pressure over a couple of minutes then your pipe is
sound. If there is then you should either dig it up and examine as you go or
run in a new pipe via a more accessible/protected route. Any new pipe should
be protected against corrosion by using plastic coated copper tubing. Old
cinders surrounding bare copper underground pipes are acidic and commonly
cause corrosion problems also careless spade work when gardening. 50metres
in one length is no problem to source from Plumb Centre or similar. Take a
look at the OFTEC website for specifications as to burying and protection
against mechanical damage
If you do find a leak underground and assuming it is kerosine don't panic.
Kerosine evaporates so unless you are rabidly wanting to incur a lot of crap
and over the top expense from officialdom dig out the contaminated soil and
spread it out thinly on a large plastic sheet to allow it to dry out. After
a sufficient length of drying time it will even grow grass again if seeded.
Most real world cases simply get left and dry out anyway.

You need to tell your insurers ASAP because you are likely to have a
large bill for clearing it pu.

That's just foolishness. He needs to first establish whether there is a
leak.


You are missing my point. If there is a serious leak, and I accept that
there may not be, he needs to tell his insurers as soon as he knows because
they may be at risk of having to pay out a large sum. Not to tell them would
be a breach of the insurance contract and might enable them to refuse to pay
out.

Peter Crosland

Peter Crosland wrote:
You need to tell your insurers ASAP because you are likely to have a
large bill for clearing it pu.

That's just foolishness. He needs to first establish whether there is a
leak.


You are missing my point. If there is a serious leak, and I accept that
there may not be, he needs to tell his insurers as soon as he knows because
they may be at risk of having to pay out a large sum.


No, you're missing the point. You said "You need to tell your insurers
ASAP...".


The point is that there is no reason to tell anyone anything until it is
established that there is a leak. Even if there is a leak, careful
consideration must be given to the consequences before doing anything else.


--
Grunff

"Mike" wrote in message
...

"Dave Walsh" wrote in message
...
So the burner wouldnt fire up, odd I thought...checked
everything...finally
went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled to the top 5 months
ago... checked the filter...all good..hmmm lets see how much oil we've
used
in the past 5 months....YOIKS!!! empty!!!!!!!..WHAT???...cant
be..checked
again...yip empty. No way we could have used that ammount of oil.
Heres my question, could we have a leak?..if so how would I find
it?..Should
I dig up the pipe feeding the boiler, approx 50m run. Are there any
detectors sniffer dogs deviners you can recomend??..

waiting in anticipation for any suggestions...

I doubt if you actually have a leak but to prove it either way call in an
OFTEC registered engineer and ask him to run a pressure test on the oil
line. That will prove if the line is sealed or not.

I bet it was just the heatings been on more than you think though. Faulty
timer controller operating overnight or in the day perhaps ?

One other possibility. How recently did you have the jets
renewed on the boiler? If they are burning badly the boiler will
be on for longer periods. I would expect you to smell un-burned
oil outside though, but possibly not, especially in the winter
when you're indoors more. Jets are normally changed annually.

I confirm what people say about the smell of a leak. I had a very minor
weep from a joint but could easily smell it. Unless of course it has
just started and is well underground in porous soil.

Interesting point about a diviner. There are sensors that
detect hydrocarbons. They're used for MOT tests. Is there
such a thing for domestic oil leaks?

Peter Scott

The point is that there is no reason to tell anyone anything until it is
established that there is a leak. Even if there is a leak, careful
consideration must be given to the consequences before doing anything
else.


You still don't get the point! If there IS a leak, or a strong possibility
that there has been one, and there IS, a possibility of a claim then the
insured IS obligated to tell the insurers as soon as possible. Insurance
contracts are ones in which "uberrima fides" or "of the utmost good faith"
is required. Not telling your insurer as soon as the possibility of a claim
becomes apparent gives them the opportunity to repudiate the claim.

Peter Crosland

Grunff wrote;
If you've really lost 1000 litres + of oil over a period of 5 months,
you should have noticed a *big* puddle, and a strong smell. Oil floats.

A few years ago someone demolishing a building on a local industrial estate
knocked over a tank containing less than that. Roads were closed for days,
local area evacuated for a short while, half the fire engines in the county
on stand by etc.

Grunff is dead right, you would notice.

Dave

"Peter Scott" wrote in message
...

"Mike" wrote in message
...

"Dave Walsh" wrote in message
...
So the burner wouldnt fire up, odd I thought...checked
everything...finally
went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled to the top 5
months
ago... checked the filter...all good..hmmm lets see how much oil we've
used
in the past 5 months....YOIKS!!! empty!!!!!!!..WHAT???...cant
be..checked
again...yip empty. No way we could have used that ammount of oil.
Heres my question, could we have a leak?..if so how would I find
it?..Should
I dig up the pipe feeding the boiler, approx 50m run. Are there any
detectors sniffer dogs deviners you can recomend??..

waiting in anticipation for any suggestions...

I doubt if you actually have a leak but to prove it either way call in an
OFTEC registered engineer and ask him to run a pressure test on the oil
line. That will prove if the line is sealed or not.

I bet it was just the heatings been on more than you think though.
Faulty
timer controller operating overnight or in the day perhaps ?

One other possibility. How recently did you have the jets
renewed on the boiler? If they are burning badly the boiler will
be on for longer periods. I would expect you to smell un-burned
oil outside though, but possibly not, especially in the winter
when you're indoors more. Jets are normally changed annually.

If it was bad enough to show severe over use of oil you "WOULD" know about
it from the soot formation unless you deliberately chose to ignore it until
the boiler ground to a premature halt.

"Dave Walsh" wrote in message
...
So the burner wouldnt fire up, odd I thought...checked everything...finally
went out to the 2500 Litre tank that was only filled to the top 5 months
ago... checked the filter...all good..hmmm lets see how much oil we've used
in the past 5 months....YOIKS!!! empty!!!!!!!..WHAT???...cant be..checked
again...yip empty. No way we could have used that ammount of oil.
Heres my question, could we have a leak?..if so how would I find it?..Should
I dig up the pipe feeding the boiler, approx 50m run. Are there any
detectors sniffer dogs deviners you can recomend??..

waiting in anticipation for any suggestions...

Inspect tank. Steel tanks can rust and develop leaks.

If the tank is sound and there is no sign of a leak from the tank itself, I
suggest that you put some more oil in the tank and then check the level at
regular intervals. I assume that there is a valve on the tank which you can
turn off shoudl you need to.

Do you know for sure how much oil was actually in the tank after it was filled 5
months ago. I've used about 2200 litres in that period. What is your annual
consumption?

--

Michael Chare

Grunff wrote:

Peter Crosland wrote:

You need to tell your insurers ASAP because you are likely to have a
large bill for clearing it pu.


That's just foolishness. He needs to first establish whether there is
a leak.



You are missing my point. If there is a serious leak, and I accept
that there may not be, he needs to tell his insurers as soon as he
knows because they may be at risk of having to pay out a large sum.



No, you're missing the point. You said "You need to tell your insurers
ASAP...".


The point is that there is no reason to tell anyone anything until it is
established that there is a leak. Even if there is a leak, careful
consideration must be given to the consequences before doing anything else.


Indeed. Neighbours had a split oil line that dumped the whole contents
of the tank under their house.

A year later the floors are back in the house, and so are they.

You may consider that a year out of your house is not worth the trouble
of reporting it to the insurers. who HAVE to take action to be UTTERLY safe.

Like a car that got stuck in a flood. Had to be written off because
flood water may give the next owner a case of the squits. Or something.

Talk about nanny state.