I drove large trucks all over the United States and Canada for 15 years. The
first ten years I drove OTR I owned my own truck and I hauled oilfield and
construction equipment on flat bed and specialized trailers. There were a lot
of challenges in this type of driving but I ALWAYS got 8 hours of sleep and was
well rested when driving ( except when the A/C broke down in hot weather).
After selling my equipment I went to work for a reefer outfit close to my home.
Meat and other perishable food items were probably about 75% of the cargo I
hauled then. Getting the job done and getting sufficient sleep is a BIG problem
in that segment of the industry.

BLACK BOXES in trucks would save lives and make the drivers of the big rigs
safer. LOG BOOKS should be eliminated; the "honor system" that log books depend
on is a failure. With an onboard computer in each truck a special digitalized
CDL specific to each driver could keep track of the hours of operation of that
rig and driver and notify authorities when a rig and driver were possible
safety hazards. A daily download via satellite to a Federal agency would insure
compliance by drivers. Not only should drivers who violate HOS ( hours of
service) laws be fined but the owner of the company who employs that driver and
any dispatchers or managers in the chain. There are a lot of safety issues in
the trucking industry but driver fatigue is one of the biggest problems that
affect ALL of us. After all it may be you or a family member who gets
killed/injured by a rig with a sleepy driver at the wheel.
Dennis

On 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 GMT, (Gunluvver2) wrote:

||I drove large trucks all over the United States and Canada for 15 years. The
||first ten years I drove OTR I owned my own truck and I hauled oilfield and
||construction equipment on flat bed and specialized trailers. There were a lot
||of challenges in this type of driving but I ALWAYS got 8 hours of sleep and
was
||well rested when driving ( except when the A/C broke down in hot weather).
||After selling my equipment I went to work for a reefer outfit close to my
home.
||Meat and other perishable food items were probably about 75% of the cargo I
||hauled then. Getting the job done and getting sufficient sleep is a BIG
problem
||in that segment of the industry.
||
||BLACK BOXES in trucks would save lives and make the drivers of the big rigs
||safer. LOG BOOKS should be eliminated; the "honor system" that log books
depend
||on is a failure. With an onboard computer in each truck a special digitalized
||CDL specific to each driver could keep track of the hours of operation of that
||rig and driver and notify authorities when a rig and driver were possible
||safety hazards. A daily download via satellite to a Federal agency would
insure
||compliance by drivers. Not only should drivers who violate HOS ( hours of
||service) laws be fined but the owner of the company who employs that driver
and
||any dispatchers or managers in the chain. There are a lot of safety issues in
||the trucking industry but driver fatigue is one of the biggest problems that
||affect ALL of us. After all it may be you or a family member who gets
||killed/injured by a rig with a sleepy driver at the wheel.
||Dennis

Dennis
That makes a lot of sense. Two things come to mind:
1 - The Teamsters would fight it tooth and nail
2 - The car version used by the insurance company relies on the OBD II system
to gather the data. With that in place, the add-on box that the insurance
company provides becomes almost trivial engineering. Trucks have no standard
data system like OBD II AFAIK.
3 - It would have to be established by the insurance company, rather than the
government. The lure of lower insurance premiums for trucking companies would
lead to widespread adoption, and the drivers would have to accept it. Once it
became a standard, it could be worked into government regulation if neccessary.

I'm the first to holler 'Foul' when I see government encroachment, but this
makes sense.
Texas Parts Guy

In article , Gunluvver2 says...

I drove large trucks all over the United States and Canada for 15 years. The
first ten years I drove OTR I owned my own truck and I hauled oilfield and
construction equipment on flat bed and specialized trailers. There were a lot
of challenges in this type of driving but I ALWAYS got 8 hours of sleep and was
well rested when driving ( except when the A/C broke down in hot weather).
After selling my equipment I went to work for a reefer outfit close to my home.
Meat and other perishable food items were probably about 75% of the cargo I
hauled then. Getting the job done and getting sufficient sleep is a BIG problem
in that segment of the industry.

BLACK BOXES in trucks would save lives and make the drivers of the big rigs
safer. LOG BOOKS should be eliminated; the "honor system" that log books depend
on is a failure. With an onboard computer in each truck a special digitalized
CDL specific to each driver could keep track of the hours of operation of that
rig and driver and notify authorities when a rig and driver were possible
safety hazards. A daily download via satellite to a Federal agency would insure
compliance by drivers. Not only should drivers who violate HOS ( hours of
service) laws be fined but the owner of the company who employs that driver and
any dispatchers or managers in the chain. There are a lot of safety issues in
the trucking industry but driver fatigue is one of the biggest problems that
affect ALL of us. After all it may be you or a family member who gets
killed/injured by a rig with a sleepy driver at the wheel.

Apprarently in Germany this system already exists.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Rex B wrote:
On 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 GMT, (Gunluvver2) wrote:
snip
1 - The Teamsters would fight it tooth and nail
2 - The car version used by the insurance company relies on the OBD II system
to gather the data. With that in place, the add-on box that the insurance
company provides becomes almost trivial engineering. Trucks have no standard
data system like OBD II AFAIK.

Not essentially a problem.
A high volume (hundreds of thousands) box with a GPS, compass, accellerometer,
logging every second with capacity to log for a month or so, with readout
via IRDA or bluetooth would cost some $80, and retail for maybe $160.

Add a camera to take a picture a second, storage for the last 2 hours,
and pictures every 2 seconds for the last 4 hours, 4 seconds 8 hours, ...

And the cost goes up to maybe $300, with retail maybe $500.

And all it'd need would be 12V, and stuck onto the top.

|| That makes a lot of sense. Two things come to mind:
||1 - The Teamsters would fight it tooth and nail
||2 - The car version used by ....
||3 - It would have to be established by....

There are 3 kinds of people: Those who can count, and those who can't
Texas Parts Guy

"jim rozen" wrote in message
...
In article , Gunluvver2
says...

I drove large trucks all over the United States and Canada for 15 years.
The
first ten years I drove OTR I owned my own truck and I hauled oilfield
and
construction equipment on flat bed and specialized trailers. There were a
lot
of challenges in this type of driving but I ALWAYS got 8 hours of sleep
and was
well rested when driving ( except when the A/C broke down in hot
weather).
After selling my equipment I went to work for a reefer outfit close to my
home.
Meat and other perishable food items were probably about 75% of the cargo
I
hauled then. Getting the job done and getting sufficient sleep is a BIG
problem
in that segment of the industry.

BLACK BOXES in trucks would save lives and make the drivers of the big
rigs
safer. LOG BOOKS should be eliminated; the "honor system" that log books
depend
on is a failure. With an onboard computer in each truck a special
digitalized
CDL specific to each driver could keep track of the hours of operation of
that
rig and driver and notify authorities when a rig and driver were possible
safety hazards. A daily download via satellite to a Federal agency would
insure
compliance by drivers. Not only should drivers who violate HOS ( hours of
service) laws be fined but the owner of the company who employs that
driver and
any dispatchers or managers in the chain. There are a lot of safety
issues in
the trucking industry but driver fatigue is one of the biggest problems
that
affect ALL of us. After all it may be you or a family member who gets
killed/injured by a rig with a sleepy driver at the wheel.

Apprarently in Germany this system already exists.


It already exists in plenty of countries around the world - the old paper
trace tachograph was introduced in the EU countries as far back as the
1960s. The German drivers trade union was the major proponent for the
introduction of strict driving hours. Interestingly this also increased
wages and improved working conditions, it actually forced transport
companies to become efficient in their operations and make full use of their
trucks.

Since then on board truck computers can monitor a whole range of inputs from
the truck. Road speed, distance, engine speed, gear, lights, indicators,
horn, brakes, engine brake, GPS position. Accident information for the last
60 seconds. Even ancillary items on the truck like valves on a fuel tanker
can be monitored.

Back in the late 1980s we were servicing vehicles based upon a matrix of
information coming from the computer - engine revolutions, brake
applications and average speed. With a good driver a 10,000km service
interval could be extended out to in excess of 25,000.

On Tue, 10 Aug 2004 15:20:34 GMT, (Rex B) calmly ranted:

That makes a lot of sense. Two things come to mind:
1 - The Teamsters would fight it tooth and nail

They're also billing it as a safeguard against stolen shipments,
so the truckers get their rigs back sooner. It quiets Teamsters.


2 - The car version used by the insurance company relies on the OBD II system
to gather the data. With that in place, the add-on box that the insurance
company provides becomes almost trivial engineering. Trucks have no standard
data system like OBD II AFAIK.

A buddy of mine is a hauler for sports TV gear (He has to watch
the Stupor Bowl in person, poor guy.) and they have tracking
via a palm pad w/ geo connection. They show him the precise
roads, add in traffic info so he gets rerouted automatically
if there's a major tieup, etc. He doesn't mind being tracked
since they don't rake him over the coals for speeding, etc.


3 - It would have to be established by the insurance company, rather than the
government. The lure of lower insurance premiums for trucking companies would
lead to widespread adoption, and the drivers would have to accept it. Once it
became a standard, it could be worked into government regulation if neccessary.

I thought you said 2.


I'm the first to holler 'Foul' when I see government encroachment, but this
makes sense.

The mandatory downtime law has already affected prices since some
firms had to add drivers for the same amount of runs to keep the
flow. Does anyone have the stats on trucking accidents? Do the
majority of them happen to tired drivers (lone-vehicle accidents)
or do more happen when other vehicles pull dumb**** moves and
involve more than one vehicle? I'd be willing to bet on the latter.
Most truckers I've know are lerts.

--
-------------------------------------------------------
Never underestimate the innate animosity of inanimate objects.
----
http://diversify.com Dynamic Website Applications

When I was show booth manager, we used to send two semi's to the show.
We would force hire 3 drivers for each line truck. They wanted only two, but
we paid extra to simply have a real 8 hour driver and 24 hours (or close) on the road.
It was coast to coast.

Often, the truck would be half a day or a day late. Often 'lost' or unknown where it
was. A Sat link to the truck would have helped the truck line locate and keep
things straight.

Being late a little is one thing, but having a union crew on the other end waiting
in overtime and double overtime for a missing truck was an expensive problem.

Martin

Gunluvver2 wrote:

I drove large trucks all over the United States and Canada for 15 years. The
first ten years I drove OTR I owned my own truck and I hauled oilfield and
construction equipment on flat bed and specialized trailers. There were a lot
of challenges in this type of driving but I ALWAYS got 8 hours of sleep and was
well rested when driving ( except when the A/C broke down in hot weather).
After selling my equipment I went to work for a reefer outfit close to my home.
Meat and other perishable food items were probably about 75% of the cargo I
hauled then. Getting the job done and getting sufficient sleep is a BIG problem
in that segment of the industry.

BLACK BOXES in trucks would save lives and make the drivers of the big rigs
safer. LOG BOOKS should be eliminated; the "honor system" that log books depend
on is a failure. With an onboard computer in each truck a special digitalized
CDL specific to each driver could keep track of the hours of operation of that
rig and driver and notify authorities when a rig and driver were possible
safety hazards. A daily download via satellite to a Federal agency would insure
compliance by drivers. Not only should drivers who violate HOS ( hours of
service) laws be fined but the owner of the company who employs that driver and
any dispatchers or managers in the chain. There are a lot of safety issues in
the trucking industry but driver fatigue is one of the biggest problems that
affect ALL of us. After all it may be you or a family member who gets
killed/injured by a rig with a sleepy driver at the wheel.
Dennis





--
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home at Lion's Lair with our computer
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

On 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 GMT, (Gunluvver2) vaguely
proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

Before I picked on truckers, I would like to see the crashes/deaths
per distance figures for truck vs cars. Also, which if those crashes
was the trucker's fault. We get quite a few deaths over here where the
_car_ goes to the wrong side of the road. In fact it's weird how often
this happens _just_ as a truck is coming the other way...hmmm.

BLACK BOXES in trucks would save lives and make the drivers of the big rigs
safer. LOG BOOKS should be eliminated; the "honor system" that log books depend
on is a failure. With an onboard computer in each truck a special digitalized

************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:25:36 +0800, Old Nick wrote:

||On 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 GMT, (Gunluvver2) vaguely
||proposed a theory
||......and in reply I say!:
||
|| remove ns from my header address to reply via email
||
||Before I picked on truckers, I would like to see the crashes/deaths
||per distance figures for truck vs cars. Also, which if those crashes
||was the trucker's fault. We get quite a few deaths over here where the
||_car_ goes to the wrong side of the road. In fact it's weird how often
||this happens _just_ as a truck is coming the other way...hmmm.

Likely the errant car veers into a traffic mix of cars and trucks. The smaller
vehicles are able to avoid, but a loaded semi doesn't adjust as quickly.
Texas Parts Guy

Well why don't we put the same device in passenger cars, that way whenever a
car drive exceeds the speedlimit, the government will automatically be
notified and you will get a speeding ticket in the mail..

Tony

"Gunluvver2" wrote in message
...
I drove large trucks all over the United States and Canada for 15 years.
The
first ten years I drove OTR I owned my own truck and I hauled oilfield and
construction equipment on flat bed and specialized trailers. There were a
lot
of challenges in this type of driving but I ALWAYS got 8 hours of sleep
and was
well rested when driving ( except when the A/C broke down in hot weather).
After selling my equipment I went to work for a reefer outfit close to my
home.
Meat and other perishable food items were probably about 75% of the cargo
I
hauled then. Getting the job done and getting sufficient sleep is a BIG
problem
in that segment of the industry.

BLACK BOXES in trucks would save lives and make the drivers of the big
rigs
safer. LOG BOOKS should be eliminated; the "honor system" that log books
depend
on is a failure. With an onboard computer in each truck a special
digitalized
CDL specific to each driver could keep track of the hours of operation of
that
rig and driver and notify authorities when a rig and driver were possible
safety hazards. A daily download via satellite to a Federal agency would
insure
compliance by drivers. Not only should drivers who violate HOS ( hours of
service) laws be fined but the owner of the company who employs that
driver and
any dispatchers or managers in the chain. There are a lot of safety issues
in
the trucking industry but driver fatigue is one of the biggest problems
that
affect ALL of us. After all it may be you or a family member who gets
killed/injured by a rig with a sleepy driver at the wheel.
Dennis

Larry Jaques wrote:

....snip.....

A buddy of mine is a hauler for sports TV gear (He has to watch
the Stupor Bowl in person, poor guy.) and they have tracking
via a palm pad w/ geo connection. They show him the precise
roads, add in traffic info so he gets rerouted automatically
if there's a major tieup, etc. He doesn't mind being tracked
since they don't rake him over the coals for speeding, etc.

Hmm, I find it funny that this sort of stuff isn't bog standard in the
USA. Ten+ years ago I was fringe to endless discussion on network
topology (how roads are described and stored in a computer) to enable
all that stuff (plus lane change advice, etc).

Ran into someone recently who went to install tracking onto some trucks
in the country. He asked if there was a risk that they would be
hijaacked and was answered with a laugh "we would not mind that. They
are garbage trucks".

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:44:00 GMT, (Rex B) calmly ranted:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:25:36 +0800, Old Nick wrote:

||On 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 GMT, (Gunluvver2) vaguely
||proposed a theory
||......and in reply I say!:
||
|| remove ns from my header address to reply via email
||
||Before I picked on truckers, I would like to see the crashes/deaths
||per distance figures for truck vs cars. Also, which if those crashes
||was the trucker's fault. We get quite a few deaths over here where the
||_car_ goes to the wrong side of the road. In fact it's weird how often
||this happens _just_ as a truck is coming the other way...hmmm.

Likely the errant car veers into a traffic mix of cars and trucks. The smaller
vehicles are able to avoid, but a loaded semi doesn't adjust as quickly.

One of my favorite phrases from the Larry Niven novels is "Think of
it as in evolution action." Darwinism at its best.


-- Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Turkey and Drive --

"Tony" wrote in message . net...
Well why don't we put the same device in passenger cars, that way whenever a
car drive exceeds the speedlimit, the government will automatically be
notified and you will get a speeding ticket in the mail..

Tony

The instructions to bypass the system would be in the internet in less
than a week after the first car was delivered.

Matt.

In article , Matt says...

"Tony" wrote in message
.net...
Well why don't we put the same device in passenger cars, that way whenever a
car drive exceeds the speedlimit, the government will automatically be
notified and you will get a speeding ticket in the mail..

Tony

The instructions to bypass the system would be in the internet in less
than a week after the first car was delivered.

OK bright guys, how come they don't simply install governors
that prevent cars from going faster than 55 mph? The technology
is there, right?

Just think of all the speeding tickets - that wouldn't get
written.

All those towns, without the extra revenue.

What a shame.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

The instructions to bypass the system would be in the internet in less
than a week after the first car was delivered.

Hmm, transmitter antenna shielding?

On 12 Aug 2004 12:29:09 -0700, jim rozen wrote:

||In article , Matt says...
||
||"Tony" wrote in message
. cv.net...
|| Well why don't we put the same device in passenger cars, that way whenever
a
|| car drive exceeds the speedlimit, the government will automatically be
|| notified and you will get a speeding ticket in the mail..
||
|| Tony
||
||The instructions to bypass the system would be in the internet in less
||than a week after the first car was delivered.
||
||OK bright guys, how come they don't simply install governors
||that prevent cars from going faster than 55 mph? The technology
||is there, right?

I have always thought that a fed reg that requires cruise controls to allow a
max cruise speed of 70 mph would be effective.
Texas Parts Guy

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Matt says...

"Tony" wrote in message
v.net...

Well why don't we put the same device in passenger cars, that way whenever a
car drive exceeds the speedlimit, the government will automatically be
notified and you will get a speeding ticket in the mail..

Tony

The instructions to bypass the system would be in the internet in less
than a week after the first car was delivered.


OK bright guys, how come they don't simply install governors
that prevent cars from going faster than 55 mph? The technology
is there, right?

Just think of all the speeding tickets - that wouldn't get
written.

All those towns, without the extra revenue.

What a shame.

Jim


All of the people killed because they couldn't accelerate to avoid
accidents, or didn't have the speed/power to pass properly....makes
about as much sense as the genius that once submitted a bill to the
legislature calling for mandatory seat belts on motorcycles.

What a shame.

Bob

In article , Bob Robinson says...

All of the people killed because they couldn't accelerate to avoid
accidents, or didn't have the speed/power to pass properly....

No, not a power limiter.

A speed limiter. The throttle closes once you you get
to 55 - basically a full-time cruise control that won't
go over that speed.

You can have all the power you want, until you're going
55. Then you can have all you want, as long as it's
only just enough to keep you at that speed.

Besides, eveyone knows that speed kills - you should
be using the brakes, not the gas to avoid accidents.

Why if we're all going exactly the same speed, there
won't *be* any more crashes. We should do this. For
the children.

I'd almost like to see it happen, just to see the
collective *gulp* in all the town justice courts that
rely on speed traps to fleece folks.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

jim rozen wrote:
In article , Bob Robinson says...

All of the people killed because they couldn't accelerate to avoid
accidents, or didn't have the speed/power to pass properly....
[snip]
A speed limiter. The throttle closes once you you get
to 55 - basically a full-time cruise control that won't
go over that speed.

You can have all the power you want, until you're going
55. Then you can have all you want, as long as it's
only just enough to keep you at that speed.

Besides, eveyone knows that speed kills

********. Gaps kill, not speed. If you can see enough road to stop
safely you're safe. That might be 15mph or it might be 120mph,
depending on whether you are outside a school or on a clear motorway
(autobahn, freeway...).

- you should
be using the brakes, not the gas to avoid accidents.

You should use whatever is appropriate. I regularly accelerate beyond
the speed limit on motorways to leave gaps where they will ensure the
swift and safe passage of other motorists. What is dangerous is a
truck overtaking another truck with a speed differential of 0.5mph
thanks to their slightly miscalibrated speed limiters.

Why if we're all going exactly the same speed, there
won't *be* any more crashes.

No, if we all ensured we could stop in the "danger area" in front of
the vehicle there won't *be* any more crashes. Drive too close to the
car in front on a motorway or too fast on busy urban streets and you
won't have time to react.

We should do this. For
the children.

Are you running for office or are you just a troll?


Tim
--
Google is not the only search engine.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 11:14:52 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 14:44:00 GMT, (Rex B) calmly ranted:

On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 13:25:36 +0800, Old Nick wrote:

||On 10 Aug 2004 14:49:15 GMT, (Gunluvver2) vaguely
||proposed a theory
||......and in reply I say!:
||
|| remove ns from my header address to reply via email
||
||Before I picked on truckers, I would like to see the crashes/deaths
||per distance figures for truck vs cars. Also, which if those crashes
||was the trucker's fault. We get quite a few deaths over here where the
||_car_ goes to the wrong side of the road. In fact it's weird how often
||this happens _just_ as a truck is coming the other way...hmmm.

Likely the errant car veers into a traffic mix of cars and trucks. The smaller
vehicles are able to avoid, but a loaded semi doesn't adjust as quickly.

One of my favorite phrases from the Larry Niven novels is "Think of
it as in evolution action." Darwinism at its best.


-- Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Turkey and Drive --

We had an odd one yesterday on my normal drive route.

Church group in minivan..rolls over on the 210 freeway. Few are belted
in, two are killed outright, the injured ejected..and a young boy is
ejected and hurled into the path of an oncoming train which cuts off
his leg.

I wonder what the odds were of that sort of thing happening?

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/081..._fatal_ax.html


I have this mental picture of some deranged Rube Goldberg setup...

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On 12 Aug 2004 12:15:25 -0700, (Matt) wrote:

"Tony" wrote in message . net...
Well why don't we put the same device in passenger cars, that way whenever a
car drive exceeds the speedlimit, the government will automatically be
notified and you will get a speeding ticket in the mail..

Tony

The instructions to bypass the system would be in the internet in less
than a week after the first car was delivered.

Matt.

Id have to say about two weeks before the first car was shipped from
the factory.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 15:36:47 -0500, Bob Robinson
vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email


All of the people killed because they couldn't accelerate to avoid
accidents, or didn't have the speed/power to pass properly....makes
about as much sense as the genius that once submitted a bill to the
legislature calling for mandatory seat belts on motorcycles.

What a shame.

Then they should learn to drive properly, given the conditions and
vehicle. You should not break the speed limit. Period. Passing is no
excuse.

One thing that I have learnt in a lot of country driving is that you
can brake faster than you accelerate in just about any car on the
road. You can always pull back if you realise you have made a mistake.

************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:41:04 GMT, Gunner
posted:

the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats

So long as you regard pouring the economy down the drain as petty.
I don't!

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:59:57 +0100, Tim Auton
tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY] vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email


********. Gaps kill, not speed. If you can see enough road to stop
safely you're safe. That might be 15mph or it might be 120mph,
depending on whether you are outside a school or on a clear motorway
(autobahn, freeway...).

Rubbish. Speed does not kill. As we all know it's the suddens top! G
ou are wrong to say that if you can see far enough to stop you are
safe. On 90% of roads you have no way of knowing what will suddenly
enter into your field of view, within your stopping distance. Things
come from the side too, you know.

be using the brakes, not the gas to avoid accidents.

You should use whatever is appropriate. I regularly accelerate beyond
the speed limit on motorways to leave gaps where they will ensure the
swift and safe passage of other motorists.

And in so doing, should you be held liable if somebody decides to take
advantage and makes a mistake? You also broke the law. I think you are
better off minding your own business, and simpy making sure _you_
drive correctly, not spending your time "looking after" other drivers.

What is dangerous is a
truck overtaking another truck with a speed differential of 0.5mph
thanks to their slightly miscalibrated speed limiters.

The danger arose because of the driver(s), not because of any other
situation. If the guy can only do 0.5 MPH faster, then in 8 hours of
driving, he has gained 4 miles, which at country speeds will not make
up for a leak and a look around.

No, if we all ensured we could stop in the "danger area" in front of
the vehicle there won't *be* any more crashes. Drive too close to the
car in front on a motorway or too fast on busy urban streets and you
won't have time to react.

I agree. I have been rear-ended on a motorbike, so I am VERY angry
about tailgating. But you again forget that things happen because of
other than stuff you can see in front.
************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:59:57 +0100, Tim Auton
tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY] vaguely proposed a theory
.......and in reply I say!:

remove ns from my header address to reply via email

I am happy to agree and disagree with you. But please lose the
******** and "running for office" and "troll" stuff. The discussion
goes well without it.
************************************************** ***
It's not the milk and honey we hate. It's having it
rammed down our throats.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 13:47:31 +0800, Dunne E. Dawe
wrote:

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:41:04 GMT, Gunner
posted:

the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats

So long as you regard pouring the economy down the drain as petty.
I don't!

Oh..then you are talking about Bill Clinton. If you are going to
change the thread drift, please advise.

Gunner

"In my humble opinion, the petty carping levied against Bush by
the Democrats proves again, it is better to have your eye plucked
out by an eagle than to be nibbled to death by ducks." - Norman
Liebmann

In article , Tim Auton
tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY] says...

We should do this. For
the children.

Are you running for office or are you just a troll?

Ahem. Hook-in-mouth disease....

Jim


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In article , Gunner says...

Church group in minivan..rolls over on the 210 freeway. Few are belted
in, two are killed outright, the injured ejected..and a young boy is
ejected and hurled into the path of an oncoming train which cuts off
his leg.

And the headline talks about a light rail accident. Ha.

Is it only me, or do most of those church vans seem to be
deathmobiles?

Overloaded, underpowered, and poorly driven. Ah well,
at least they have the obligiatory plastic jesus on the
dashboard.

"I don't care if it rains or freezes, long as I've
got my plastic jesus, sittin on the dashboard of my car..."

Jim


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jim rozen wrote:

Besides, eveyone knows that speed kills

What a total load of bull****, you are the perfect pansy the governments
of the world love to brain wash. What actually kills is incompetent and
poorly trained drivers. Everyone seems to think that because they have
a licence to drive that it immediately makes them a good driver. Well
i'm sorry to inform you that this is just not the case.

The major problems with most accidents are poor judgement, not driving
at a speed appropriate to the conditions(including slower than the
posted limit where safety dictates), your own personal skill and the
vehicle road holding capabilites (including tyre grip and wear).

To say outright that speed kills is a truth in itself though, if you
were not moving then you would not kill/injure yourself or others, thats
just plain common sense, but the spin given on it by revenue hungry
politians is all to convenient.

Matt.
Agrieved Australian Driver

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:19:26 +1000, Matt Pearce
wrote:

||jim rozen wrote:
||
|| Besides, eveyone knows that speed kills
||
||What a total load of bull****, you are the perfect pansy the governments
||of the world love to brain wash. What actually kills is incompetent and
||poorly trained drivers. Everyone seems to think that because they have
||a licence to drive that it immediately makes them a good driver. Well
||i'm sorry to inform you that this is just not the case.

I instructed at a BMW club event last weekend. Spent Sat & Sun showing novices
how to drive their cars safely at speeds up to 100 mph on a racetrack. Sunday
morning, 1st session, my student remarks that he was more concerned for his
safety drving home the previous night in Dallas traffic than he was all day on
the racetrack.
Texas Parts Guy

In article u, Matt Pearce
says...

jim rozen wrote:

Besides, eveyone knows that speed kills

What a total load of bull****, you are the perfect pansy the governments
of the world love to brain wash.

But we should do it. For the children.

Jim


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On 12 Aug 2004 12:29:09 -0700, jim rozen wrote:
In article , Matt says...

"Tony" wrote in message
v.net...
Well why don't we put the same device in passenger cars, that way whenever a
car drive exceeds the speedlimit, the government will automatically be
notified and you will get a speeding ticket in the mail..

Tony

The instructions to bypass the system would be in the internet in less
than a week after the first car was delivered.

OK bright guys, how come they don't simply install governors
that prevent cars from going faster than 55 mph? The technology
is there, right?

Yes, in fact my 350Z has a speed governor built into the ECU
from the factory. Of course there's a company, Technosquare,
whose business is to reprogram the ECU to remove it. They
seem to be doing a healthy business too, even through the
speed governor is set to 156 MPH by the factory. People don't
like limits, even when the limits are of more theoretical than
practical effect.

Just think of all the speeding tickets - that wouldn't get
written.

All those towns, without the extra revenue.

What a shame.

Town speed limits are usually set lower than 55 MPH.
So the effect of such a governor on their revenue would
be moot.

Gary

In article , Gary Coffman says...

Town speed limits are usually set lower than 55 MPH.
So the effect of such a governor on their revenue would
be moot.

"Speed Radar Controlled"

I used to love those signs.

Think about it, a transponder in some local
area that could set the governor in each car.
No more speeding tickets. Everyone's a nice
law abiding citizen then. Conformity rules.

Jim


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I wonder what the odds were of that sort of thing happening?

http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/news/081..._fatal_ax.html


I have this mental picture of some deranged Rube Goldberg setup...

Gunner

In LA ??? I had heard about a simi involved in a highway shut down
and when I read in the paper the head line was "Troopers shooting pigs
on fire."

OH ! Gunner, is there an easy way to record some of that LA plastic
news casts/casters on VHF? I'd like to confirm I wasn't seeing things
while watching TV out that way doing a pool. I could have sworn it was
real but they would start a story and go into their own personal
shenanigans and on to the next story ,over and over. I had the remote
, maybe that only happens at late night.

On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 16:33:25 GMT, (Rex B) wrote:

On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 01:19:26 +1000, Matt Pearce
wrote:

||jim rozen wrote:
||
|| Besides, eveyone knows that speed kills
||
||What a total load of bull****, you are the perfect pansy the governments
||of the world love to brain wash. What actually kills is incompetent and
||poorly trained drivers. Everyone seems to think that because they have
||a licence to drive that it immediately makes them a good driver. Well
||i'm sorry to inform you that this is just not the case.

I instructed at a BMW club event last weekend. Spent Sat & Sun showing novices
how to drive their cars safely at speeds up to 100 mph on a racetrack. Sunday
morning, 1st session, my student remarks that he was more concerned for his
safety drving home the previous night in Dallas traffic than he was all day on
the racetrack.
Texas Parts Guy
Would that be at Cresson?

Old Nick wrote:
On Fri, 13 Aug 2004 05:59:57 +0100, Tim Auton
tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY] vaguely proposed a theory
......and in reply I say!:
remove ns from my header address to reply via email
********. Gaps kill, not speed. If you can see enough road to stop
safely you're safe. That might be 15mph or it might be 120mph,
depending on whether you are outside a school or on a clear motorway
(autobahn, freeway...).

Rubbish. Speed does not kill. As we all know it's the suddens top! G
ou are wrong to say that if you can see far enough to stop you are
safe.

I probably didn't express myself very well. You should be able to see
far enough to stop before any likely hazards, including people
stepping out from between cars where that is a possibility - hence the
comment about schools. Speed does not kill. Saying so implies that
your speed should be your primary consideration. Your primary
consideration should be what is going on outside your vehicle.

[snip]
be using the brakes, not the gas to avoid accidents.

You should use whatever is appropriate. I regularly accelerate beyond
the speed limit on motorways to leave gaps where they will ensure the
swift and safe passage of other motorists.

And in so doing, should you be held liable if somebody decides to take
advantage and makes a mistake? You also broke the law. I think you are
better off minding your own business, and simpy making sure _you_
drive correctly, not spending your time "looking after" other drivers.

I make gaps for other drivers as a matter of self preservation as well
as courtesy. I don't want to be next to someone when they relaise they
want to pull into my lane. So I see it coming and make sure I'm not.
There is no "minding your own business" - other vehicles are a fact of
life. If you don't take them into account in your driving you are
beyond dangerous.


Tim
--
Google is not the only search engine.

In article , Tim Auton
tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY] says...

I probably didn't express myself very well. You should be able to see
far enough to stop before any likely hazards, including people
stepping out from between cars where that is a possibility - hence the
comment about schools. Speed does not kill. Saying so implies that
your speed should be your primary consideration.

Ah but of *course* it should be. This point is driven home by
all the local law enforcement officers.

Do they ever give tickets for poor skill at driving, do they
ever ticket left-lane loiterers? No. Do they write up folks
who are busy putting on makeup or talking on phones - even
thought this is illegal in NY state? Nope. Do they pull
over and cite the poor confused elderly drivers, who have
no business endagering all the other road users while they
meander in random-walk paths down the highway? No again.

But they can and do tie up literally dozens of officers and
a half dozen state police cars to run speed traps on the
widest, safest part of the local parkways.

Sure, because the law officers and their management decide
that SPEED ENFORCEMENT is the primary goal of the police,
then it's obvious that we need to fix the problem right
at the start - have the manfacturers place speed governing
devices in the car from the factory. No more speeding,
all the cops can go back to munching donuts. End of trouble.

Jim


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On Sat, 14 Aug 2004 03:27:52 GMT, Andy Asberry
wrote:

||
||I instructed at a BMW club event last weekend. Spent Sat & Sun showing
novices
||how to drive their cars safely at speeds up to 100 mph on a racetrack.
Sunday
||morning, 1st session, my student remarks that he was more concerned for his
||safety drving home the previous night in Dallas traffic than he was all day
on
||the racetrack.
||Texas Parts Guy
|| Would that be at Cresson?

Yes, Motorsport Ranch
Texas Parts Guy

On 14 Aug 2004 15:37:45 -0700, jim rozen wrote:

||comment about schools. Speed does not kill. Saying so implies that
||your speed should be your primary consideration.
||
||Ah but of *course* it should be. This point is driven home by
||all the local law enforcement officers.
||
||Do they ever give tickets for poor skill at driving, do they
||ever ticket left-lane loiterers? No. Do they write up folks
||who are busy putting on makeup or talking on phones - even
||thought this is illegal in NY state? Nope. Do they pull
||over and cite the poor confused elderly drivers, who have
||no business endagering all the other road users while they
||meander in random-walk paths down the highway? No again.
||
||But they can and do tie up literally dozens of officers and
||a half dozen state police cars to run speed traps on the
||widest, safest part of the local parkways.
||
||Sure, because the law officers and their management decide
||that SPEED ENFORCEMENT is the primary goal of the police,

No. The primary goal is revenue. Check the budget of your local governement
entity and see how much of their income is from traffic fines.
Speed all you want, as long as your are prepared to pay the "tax".
It's an escalating tax, with heavy users paying more.
Texas Parts Guy