I've replaced light switches before for regular "black, white, ground"
setups and 3-way setups. So I was helping a friend who asked me to replace
a switch/receptable combo with just a plain on/off switch. I opened up the
existing switch/receptable combo and found an extra wire - a red one! I
figured it was either a traveler for an old 3 way (I was guessing; no 3 ways
were ever seen) or an extra hot. The unit looked like:

SWITCH (top) (toggle leftright)
110 V receptable (bottom)


It was wired like this (the 2 screw terminals on each side):

-- RED BLACK --
|
-- WHITE nothing --
(ground at bottom)


I figured white was neutral because it was the only silver screw and the
only one labeled on the back to be "white". I didn't have a meter but I had
a basic "light goes on" continuity tester. I did "black to white" and the
light went on. "Red to white" and the light didn't go on. So I capped
off the red one and wired up the new "just plain on/off" switch with "black
to white", plus the ground. Flipped the house circuit back on and it
popped with a spark. I tried another switch and it did the same thing. I
figured it was obviously my wiring but I didn't know why. I put the old
switch back together and decided to post here! What am I doing wrong and
what the heck is the black wire and the red wire?

On 30 Jun 2003, FN wrote:

I've replaced light switches before for regular "black, white, ground"
setups and 3-way setups. So I was helping a friend who asked me to
replace a switch/receptable combo with just a plain on/off switch. I
opened up the existing switch/receptable combo and found an extra wire
- a red one! I figured it was either a traveler for an old 3 way (I
was guessing; no 3 ways were ever seen) or an extra hot. The unit
looked like:

SWITCH (top) (toggle leftright)
110 V receptable (bottom)

Question 1: is/was the receptacle always hot, no matter what
position the switch is in?

It was wired like this (the 2 screw terminals on each side):

-- RED BLACK --
|
-- WHITE nothing --
(ground at bottom)

Question 2: is there a (removeable) connecting tab between the
"black" and "nothing" screw positions? (just like
you find on a dpuplex receptacle, so you can make
them work independantly)

I figured white was neutral because it was the only silver screw and
the only one labeled on the back to be "white". I didn't have a meter
but I had a basic "light goes on" continuity tester. I did "black to
white" and the light went on. "Red to white" and the light didn't go
on. So I capped off the red one and wired up the new "just plain
on/off" switch with "black to white", plus the ground. Flipped the
house circuit back on and it popped with a spark. I tried another
switch and it did the same thing. I figured it was obviously my
wiring but I didn't know why. I put the old switch back together and
decided to post here! What am I doing wrong and what the heck is the
black wire and the red wire?

You're screwing with something that you should probably not be
touching. Sorry for the reality check, but one of the first things
you need to learn about a common, single pole 120VAC switch (in amy
configuration) is that the neutral is NOT involved. You switch
(make or break contact) the hot side only!

The white wire is attached to that device to provide a neutral for
the outlet - nothing more. When you wired black or red with the
white with your switch, you created a dead short of hot to neutral
when you flipped the switch.

It's likely (from the way you've described the device) that the
black is the supply wire, providing 120V from the breaker, and
there is nothing on the "nothing" sccrew because the jumper tab
is in place, it is getting fed by the black wire as well.

The red is the switched hot that feeds whatever is controlled by
the switch (assuming a light fixture). You mention nothing of
the white also leaving the box, going to the light fixture. Does
it? (more answer to come, pending your answer to that question.)

TP
--

"Tom Pendergast" wrote in message
...
On 30 Jun 2003, FN wrote:

I've replaced light switches before for regular "black, white, ground"
setups and 3-way setups. So I was helping a friend who asked me to
replace a switch/receptable combo with just a plain on/off switch. I
opened up the existing switch/receptable combo and found an extra wire
- a red one! I figured it was either a traveler for an old 3 way (I
was guessing; no 3 ways were ever seen) or an extra hot. The unit
looked like:

SWITCH (top) (toggle leftright)
110 V receptable (bottom)

Question 1: is/was the receptacle always hot, no matter what
position the switch is in?


Yes.



It was wired like this (the 2 screw terminals on each side):

-- RED BLACK --
|
-- WHITE nothing --
(ground at bottom)

Question 2: is there a (removeable) connecting tab between the
"black" and "nothing" screw positions? (just like
you find on a dpuplex receptacle, so you can make
them work independantly)


Yes. I drew that above, but didn't comment on it. The tab is not broken.



I figured white was neutral because it was the only silver screw and
the only one labeled on the back to be "white". I didn't have a meter
but I had a basic "light goes on" continuity tester. I did "black to
white" and the light went on. "Red to white" and the light didn't go
on. So I capped off the red one and wired up the new "just plain
on/off" switch with "black to white", plus the ground. Flipped the
house circuit back on and it popped with a spark. I tried another
switch and it did the same thing. I figured it was obviously my
wiring but I didn't know why. I put the old switch back together and
decided to post here! What am I doing wrong and what the heck is the
black wire and the red wire?

You're screwing with something that you should probably not be
touching. Sorry for the reality check, but one of the first things
you need to learn about a common, single pole 120VAC switch (in amy
configuration) is that the neutral is NOT involved. You switch
(make or break contact) the hot side only!

Yes, I didn't write it properly above. But there still has to be a neutral
somewhere, right? As I understand it, there's 2 ways to wire a light,
either the light is first and the hot drops down to the switch to be broken,
or the switch is first and the hot goes up to the light when connected.


The white wire is attached to that device to provide a neutral for
the outlet - nothing more. When you wired black or red with the
white with your switch, you created a dead short of hot to neutral
when you flipped the switch.

Isn't the outlet wiring the same thing as the "dead short of hot to neutral"
that I may have done? Why would one trip the fuse and the other wouldn't?



It's likely (from the way you've described the device) that the
black is the supply wire, providing 120V from the breaker, and
there is nothing on the "nothing" sccrew because the jumper tab
is in place, it is getting fed by the black wire as well.


Yes, I also believe that the black feeds the "screw" beneath it.



The red is the switched hot that feeds whatever is controlled by
the switch (assuming a light fixture). You mention nothing of
the white also leaving the box, going to the light fixture. Does
it? (more answer to come, pending your answer to that question.)


Only one set of wires comes into the box. Nothing is re-connected to leave
the box. So, as I write this (forced to think), I suspect the red is
probably the wire that carries the hot back up to the lights? So I need to
wire my switch as "black red" ? If so, where's the neutral in that?
As I wrote before, there's nothing else in the box. Thanks for your help.



TP
--

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 16:25:45 GMT, "FN"
wrote:

Only one set of wires comes into the box. Nothing is re-connected to leave
the box. So, as I write this (forced to think), I suspect the red is
probably the wire that carries the hot back up to the lights? So I need to
wire my switch as "black red" ? If so, where's the neutral in that?
As I wrote before, there's nothing else in the box. Thanks for your help.


It is wire as your second assumption, the light is wired with the
power cable going to the light, and the 3 wire +G going from the light
to the switch/outlet, black probably hot, red to the light, white for
the recepticle neutral, neutral for the light already existing in the
junction box.

On 30 Jun 2003, FN wrote:
"Tom Pendergast" wrote...

Question 1: is/was the receptacle always hot, no matter what
position the switch is in?

Yes.

Good, that kind of confirms the situation from question 2...

It was wired like this (the 2 screw terminals on each side):

-- RED BLACK --
|
-- WHITE nothing --
(ground at bottom)

Question 2: is there a (removeable) connecting tab between the
"black" and "nothing" screw positions? (just like
you find on a dpuplex receptacle, so you can make
them work independantly)


Yes. I drew that above, but didn't comment on it. The tab is not
broken.

LOL That thing!? Out there in right field?! OK, sorry for the
chuckle, I obviously didn't pick it up when I read your post.

I figured white was neutral because it was the only silver screw
and the only one labeled on the back to be "white"...What am I
doing wrong and what the heck is the black wire and the red wire?

Sorry to reiterate, but this is the key:
...one of the first
things you need to learn about a common, single pole 120VAC switch
(in amy configuration) is that the neutral is NOT involved. You
switch (make or break contact) the hot side only!

Yes, I didn't write it properly above. But there still has to be a
neutral somewhere, right? As I understand it, there's 2 ways to wire
a light, either the light is first and the hot drops down to the
switch to be broken, or the switch is first and the hot goes up to the
light when connected.

Yes. But there is a big difference between "being somewhere" and
going through the switch! The switch interrupts the hot, ONLY,
the neutral isn't part of the connection.

The white wire is attached to that device to provide a neutral for
the outlet - nothing more. When you wired black or red with the
white with your switch, you created a dead short of hot to neutral
when you flipped the switch.

Isn't the outlet wiring the same thing as the "dead short of hot to
neutral" that I may have done? Why would one trip the fuse and the
other wouldn't?

Nope. The "outlet wiring" is connecting the black to one hole on
the receptacle, the white to the other side. If nothing is plugged
in to it, there is no circuit created, no current flow. Plug in a
radio, and you have very little current flow. Plug in a toaster
oven, and you're likely drawing 8, 10, 12 amps. Stick a piece of
copper wire between the holes (just like closing your switch) and
you create a short, it will draw all kinds of current for a
fraction of a second, until the breaker trips.

It's likely (from the way you've described the device) that the
black is the supply wire, providing 120V from the breaker, and
there is nothing on the "nothing" sccrew because the jumper tab
is in place, it is getting fed by the black wire as well.

Yes, I also believe that the black feeds the "screw" beneath it.

Again, sorry I missed that above.

The red is the switched hot that feeds whatever is controlled by
the switch (assuming a light fixture). You mention nothing of
the white also leaving the box, going to the light fixture. Does
it? (more answer to come, pending your answer to that question.)

Only one set of wires comes into the box. Nothing is re-connected to
leave the box. So, as I write this (forced to think), I suspect the
red is probably the wire that carries the hot back up to the lights?

Yes. The red is the "load" side of the switch, as opposed to the
"line" side, which is connected to the breaker.

So I need to wire my switch as "black red" ? If so, where's the
neutral in that? As I wrote before, there's nothing else in the box.

Yes. The neutral (I had to stop and ponder this one for a minute,
as to -why- it's this way) is being fed to the light fixture from
-somewhere- -else-. By any chance is this light fixture in a place
where there is another circuit??? I'm betting it is. Whoever did
the install on this took their white wire from that other location,
and ran the red back down to your switch location. It's not the
sanest, cleanest way of doing it, and I have no idea if it's up to
code, but it will work.

To answer a question from anoher reply of yours further down in
the thread: What to do with the white wire after you've used the
red and black to wire your switch? Unless it is extremely short,
cut the stripped piece off, then screw a wire nut right on the
unstriped end of it. That wil keep it safe from contacting other
things in the box. Tuck it in the back, in case the next guy down
the road wants to restore the switch/outlet combo.

TP
--

"Tom Pendergast" wrote in message
...
On 30 Jun 2003, TURTLE wrote:


I leave this one up to you and Tom

Yes, and you're admittong you don't know enough to answer a simple
question. (Simple question #2, simple question #1 is "what is a
Bell Box?" you failed miserably on that one too.)

TP
--

This is Turtle.

I have no ideal about what your talking about but OK you know it all Tom.
I'm a Licenced Commercial Electrician by the State of Louisiana and do not
do mickey mouse job like wiring lites in a house. i run service to HVAC
equipment that will draw in amps what a whole house will pull at one time. I
do not profess to know the residentiual electrical work very well but i know
enough to know when to speak or keep quiet. I see in a bunch of cases you
don't know when to speak or be quiet.

Now Tom you profess to know a good deal about residentiual wiring of homes.
Here is some questions for you.

1) Have you ever wire a complete home for electrical service?
2) Do you hold any type licences in the Electrical Field?
3) Have you worked in the Electrical field in any manner at All?
4) Do you own more than a VOM and a screw driver?
5) yea , Tom explain to me what a bell box is used for? and no it is not
the box that holds the christmas bells to put on the christmas tree.
6) Answer these and it might be interesting to hear. If you don't answer
these question here. It will not matter.

TURTLE

"TURTLE" wrote in message
...

"Tom Pendergast" wrote in message
...
On 30 Jun 2003, TURTLE wrote:


I leave this one up to you and Tom

Yes, and you're admittong you don't know enough to answer a simple
question. (Simple question #2, simple question #1 is "what is a
Bell Box?" you failed miserably on that one too.)

TP
--

This is Turtle.

I have no ideal about what your talking about but OK you know it all Tom.
I'm a Licenced Commercial Electrician by the State of Louisiana and do not
do mickey mouse job like wiring lites in a house. i run service to HVAC
equipment that will draw in amps what a whole house will pull at one time.
I
do not profess to know the residentiual electrical work very well but i
know
enough to know when to speak or keep quiet. I see in a bunch of cases you
don't know when to speak or be quiet.

Now Tom you profess to know a good deal about residentiual wiring of
homes.
Here is some questions for you.

1) Have you ever wire a complete home for electrical service?
2) Do you hold any type licences in the Electrical Field?
3) Have you worked in the Electrical field in any manner at All?
4) Do you own more than a VOM and a screw driver?
5) yea , Tom explain to me what a bell box is used for? and no it is not
the box that holds the christmas bells to put on the christmas tree.
6) Answer these and it might be interesting to hear. If you don't answer
these question here. It will not matter.

TURTLE


Turtle:

Please don't give Tommy Pedophile any more questions to ponder. He is still
working feverishly on the previous questions that were given to him about
the following topics:

1. Would a smart person pay $80 to change a furnace filter?
2. Why can't you use copper pipe instead of a fuse?
3. What is the difference between a ground wire and a neutral wire?
4. What psychosematicschitzoidembalism is created when breathing PVC fumes?

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 07:50:26 GMT, "FN"
wrote:

So then what would I do with the white/neutral wire when I want to put in
the new, plain on/off light switch?

Cap it.

Remove the switch using proper precautions. Apply power and neasure voltages
to ground. If both the red and black wires are now hot this PROBABLY means
there was a dedicated hot wire for the switched circuit and a seperate hot
wire for the outlet.. I doubt if this is the case since the switch and
outlet were straped together on the original switch. Otherwise if only one
wire is hot the other hot colored wir is probably part of the circuit thay
goes to whatever is switched. If we assume black has power on it and red
doesnt then the black wire would connect to the side that has the strap on
it , the red ot the other side of the switch and the white to neuttal
connection of the outlet. In this configuration the outlet will be hot all
the time. IF you want the outlet switched reverse the connections of the red
and black wires.


"FN" wrote in message
.. .

"Tom Pendergast" wrote in message
...
On 30 Jun 2003, FN wrote:

I've replaced light switches before for regular "black, white, ground"
setups and 3-way setups. So I was helping a friend who asked me to
replace a switch/receptable combo with just a plain on/off switch. I
opened up the existing switch/receptable combo and found an extra wire
- a red one! I figured it was either a traveler for an old 3 way (I
was guessing; no 3 ways were ever seen) or an extra hot. The unit
looked like:

SWITCH (top) (toggle leftright)
110 V receptable (bottom)

Question 1: is/was the receptacle always hot, no matter what
position the switch is in?


Yes.



It was wired like this (the 2 screw terminals on each side):

-- RED BLACK --
|
-- WHITE nothing --
(ground at bottom)

Question 2: is there a (removeable) connecting tab between the
"black" and "nothing" screw positions? (just like
you find on a dpuplex receptacle, so you can make
them work independantly)


Yes. I drew that above, but didn't comment on it. The tab is not broken.



I figured white was neutral because it was the only silver screw and
the only one labeled on the back to be "white". I didn't have a meter
but I had a basic "light goes on" continuity tester. I did "black to
white" and the light went on. "Red to white" and the light didn't go
on. So I capped off the red one and wired up the new "just plain
on/off" switch with "black to white", plus the ground. Flipped the
house circuit back on and it popped with a spark. I tried another
switch and it did the same thing. I figured it was obviously my
wiring but I didn't know why. I put the old switch back together and
decided to post here! What am I doing wrong and what the heck is the
black wire and the red wire?

You're screwing with something that you should probably not be
touching. Sorry for the reality check, but one of the first things
you need to learn about a common, single pole 120VAC switch (in amy
configuration) is that the neutral is NOT involved. You switch
(make or break contact) the hot side only!

Yes, I didn't write it properly above. But there still has to be a
neutral
somewhere, right? As I understand it, there's 2 ways to wire a light,
either the light is first and the hot drops down to the switch to be
broken,
or the switch is first and the hot goes up to the light when connected.


The white wire is attached to that device to provide a neutral for
the outlet - nothing more. When you wired black or red with the
white with your switch, you created a dead short of hot to neutral
when you flipped the switch.

Isn't the outlet wiring the same thing as the "dead short of hot to
neutral"
that I may have done? Why would one trip the fuse and the other wouldn't?



It's likely (from the way you've described the device) that the
black is the supply wire, providing 120V from the breaker, and
there is nothing on the "nothing" sccrew because the jumper tab
is in place, it is getting fed by the black wire as well.


Yes, I also believe that the black feeds the "screw" beneath it.



The red is the switched hot that feeds whatever is controlled by
the switch (assuming a light fixture). You mention nothing of
the white also leaving the box, going to the light fixture. Does
it? (more answer to come, pending your answer to that question.)


Only one set of wires comes into the box. Nothing is re-connected to
leave
the box. So, as I write this (forced to think), I suspect the red is
probably the wire that carries the hot back up to the lights? So I need
to
wire my switch as "black red" ? If so, where's the neutral in that?
As I wrote before, there's nothing else in the box. Thanks for your
help.



TP
--

On 04 Jul 2003, Trent© wrote:

On 30 Jun 2003 22:18:58 GMT, Tom Pendergast
wrote:

Sorry to reiterate, but this is the key:
...one of the first
things you need to learn about a common, single pole 120VAC switch
(in amy configuration) is that the neutral is NOT involved. You
switch (make or break contact) the hot side only!

You should NEVER assume this.

I told him to "assume' NOTHING.

Although rare, I've seen cases where the neutral has been switched.

Oh, well la-di-da. You've "seen" that, huh? You read about
it on a web site, I can tell from the generic, squeaky clean
"observations" that you offer, that's the extent of your
experience, isn't it?

I was telling him how a switch IS WIRED. Period. I made no
guarantee that the person before him wired it correctly, THAT
wasn't the issue AT HAND.

When in doubt, turn off the breaker...even the main if necessary.

I NEVER told him *NOT* *TO*, jerk.

Have a nice week...

I don't know what your problem is, but you can lose it, now.
Or be treated just like the other leg-humping clowns that
twist my words around to be something that wasn't said. If
that's what you want, you'll get it.


TP
-- _________________________________________
If u are gonna say that I said something,
please say what I REALLY said. ($1 Earl)