Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle. It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked 17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 2:49:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:

MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

It is not that I do not want to help, but I do not know where to begin. Would need a lot more information to get started. You might begin by finding out what aluminium shapes you can get and the costs of each shape. How are you going to put the trailer together. If you are using welding, some aluminum allops are not suitable for welding. How wide is the trailer going to be? Are you going to use one piece in the center with arms out to support the deck? Is te deck going to be a structural member? Is the deck going to be aluminum or wood? Do you have access to a brake and can bend sheet aluminum into square tubing? -Are you going to use rivets?

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 2:49:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:

MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions &
wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

It is not that I do not want to help, but I do not know where to begin.
Would need a lot more information to get started. You might begin by
finding out what aluminium shapes you can get and the costs of each shape.
How are you going to put the trailer together. If you are using welding,
some aluminum allops are not suitable for welding. How wide is the trailer
going to be? Are you going to use one piece in the center with arms out to
support the deck? Is te deck going to be a structural member? Is the deck
going to be aluminum or wood? Do you have access to a brake and can bend
sheet aluminum into square tubing? -Are you going to use rivets?

Dan


80/20 might be a good choice for this project. lots of options with pre-fab
bits and pieces.

https://www.8020.net/ Engineering specs, etc. Examples of what people have
built.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...0&_sacat=11804

Best Regards
Tom.

wrote:
Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle.
It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked
17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions
& wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

You can make it under 150 lbs without going to aluminum for the frame .
Too much chance for a fatigue failure . I'd use 1x3 16ga mild steel for the
frame , maybe some al diamond plate decking . Do be sure to calculate your
tongue loading as you design this , last thing you need is a trailer swaying
behind a bike - and speaking of bikes , if you're riding anything less than
a Harley FLHT . Honda 'Wing or other heavy touring bike you're not going to
be happy towing that load .
Looking at your website you apparently have welding skills and some sense
of load balancing . I presume you TIG ? If so you might want to consider
4140 thinwall tube for the frame ... race car frame builders use ER70S2
filler.
--
Snag
1990 FLHTCU

80/20 might be a good choice for this project. lots of options with pre-fab
bits and pieces.


Thanks for the suggestion and Links, Tom. That's an interesting product and I could see it working... I'm going to investigate further.

James

You can make it under 150 lbs without going to aluminum for the frame .
Too much chance for a fatigue failure . I'd use 1x3 16ga mild steel for the
frame , maybe some al diamond plate decking . Do be sure to calculate your
tongue loading as you design this , last thing you need is a trailer swaying
behind a bike - and speaking of bikes , if you're riding anything less than
a Harley FLHT . Honda 'Wing or other heavy touring bike you're not going to
be happy towing that load .
Looking at your website you apparently have welding skills and some sense
of load balancing . I presume you TIG ? If so you might want to consider
4140 thinwall tube for the frame ... race car frame builders use ER70S2
filler.
--
Snag
1990 FLHTCU

All great advice, Snag. I'm aware of fatigue issues with aluminum, and I've always been curious about that issue & weight advantage (as well as thicker material needed) verses very thin steel (or stainless even).

A 2.5' x 8' deck is quite small and 300 lbs load quite low and it seems the trailer material could be very thin indeed.

James

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 21:53:50 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

wrote:
Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle.
It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked
17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions
& wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

You can make it under 150 lbs without going to aluminum for the frame .
Too much chance for a fatigue failure . I'd use 1x3 16ga mild steel for the
frame , maybe some al diamond plate decking . Do be sure to calculate your
tongue loading as you design this , last thing you need is a trailer swaying
behind a bike - and speaking of bikes , if you're riding anything less than
a Harley FLHT . Honda 'Wing or other heavy touring bike you're not going to
be happy towing that load .
Looking at your website you apparently have welding skills and some sense
of load balancing . I presume you TIG ? If so you might want to consider
4140 thinwall tube for the frame ... race car frame builders use ER70S2
filler.

FYI, we have an article coming up soon on welding thinner gauges of
4130 (under 1/4", focus on tubes in the 16-gauge range), written by a
specialist at Hobart. I asked him to deal with all of the myths and
old-wive's tales and to give us the scientific responses to questions
like pre-heat and post-heat; types of filler; etc.

I've wanted to find an expert on the subject for years, and I think
I've got him. I'll let you know when it's coming.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle. It'll be
used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked 17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)

7075 is very strong, and pretty darn corrossion resistant as aluminum alloys
go. 5052 and 5086 are more corrosion resistant, and are the most common
marine grade alloys. 5086 is also quite strong.

Remember that most MC hitches are only rated for about 300lbs GROSS towing
capacity, and you need to have just the right amount of weight on the hitch.



MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions &
wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 2:49:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:

MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions &
wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

It is not that I do not want to help, but I do not know where to begin.
Would need a lot more information to get started. You might begin by
finding out what aluminium shapes you can get and the costs of each shape.
How are you going to put the trailer together. If you are using welding,
some aluminum allops are not suitable for welding.

True. Generally 7075 doesn't weld worth a darn.

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:28:53 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Thursday, August 4, 2016 at 2:49:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:

MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions &
wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

It is not that I do not want to help, but I do not know where to begin.
Would need a lot more information to get started. You might begin by
finding out what aluminium shapes you can get and the costs of each shape.
How are you going to put the trailer together. If you are using welding,
some aluminum allops are not suitable for welding.

True. Generally 7075 doesn't weld worth a darn.


This looks like a case where sitffness is the limiting parameter. It
shares that with lots of structures, including race cars: If it's
stiff enough, it's more than strong enough.

This suggests that steel tubing is going to be a better material than
aluminum of *any* shape for such a project. There isn't a lot of basis
to recommend anything fancier than 1020 steel tubing; 4130 doesn't
make it any stiffer, and isn't going to do much for you unless you're
going to crash it. And 1020 is easier and more reliable to weld than
almost anything else.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle.
It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked
17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy,
dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

I'd begin by closely examining the usual aluminum trailers, then try
to reverse engineer the design details.

http://www.wakefield-vette.com/resou...0105201 1.pdf

--jsw

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 07:32:21 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

You can make it under 150 lbs without going to aluminum for the frame .
Too much chance for a fatigue failure . I'd use 1x3 16ga mild steel for the
frame , maybe some al diamond plate decking . Do be sure to calculate your
tongue loading as you design this , last thing you need is a trailer swaying
behind a bike - and speaking of bikes , if you're riding anything less than
a Harley FLHT . Honda 'Wing or other heavy touring bike you're not going to
be happy towing that load .
Looking at your website you apparently have welding skills and some sense
of load balancing . I presume you TIG ? If so you might want to consider
4140 thinwall tube for the frame ... race car frame builders use ER70S2
filler.
--
Snag
1990 FLHTCU

All great advice, Snag. I'm aware of fatigue issues with aluminum, and I've always been curious about that issue & weight advantage (as well as thicker material needed) verses very thin steel (or stainless even).

A 2.5' x 8' deck is quite small and 300 lbs load quite low and it seems the trailer material could be very thin indeed.

James, one of the things you might keep in mind is the arc of the
front/back of the kayaks when you go over a rounded drive or mound at
the beach/river. You don't want the kayak digging into the blacktop,
rocks, or dirt. Check your elevations, since the wheels will be in
the center. The end will be 8.5' back from the pivot point.

How will you fasten it to the bike? 3-point mini-pintle?


--
I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the
freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of
those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
--James Madison

wrote in message
...

80/20 might be a good choice for this project. lots of options with
pre-fab
bits and pieces.


Thanks for the suggestion and Links, Tom. That's an interesting product
and I could see it working... I'm going to investigate further.

James

Good luck with your project, let us know how it comes out.

Best Regards
Tom.

James, one of the things you might keep in mind is the arc of the
front/back of the kayaks when you go over a rounded drive or mound at
the beach/river. You don't want the kayak digging into the blacktop,
rocks, or dirt. Check your elevations, since the wheels will be in
the center. The end will be 8.5' back from the pivot point.

How will you fasten it to the bike? 3-point mini-pintle?

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.

As for the Hitch, still researching. I'd PREFER a hitch that pivots with the bike's lean, but so far I've only found a proprietary system that they won't sell separately from their trailer (Bushtec).

FYI, we have an article coming up soon on welding thinner gauges of
4130 (under 1/4", focus on tubes in the 16-gauge range), written by a
specialist at Hobart. I asked him to deal with all of the myths and
old-wive's tales and to give us the scientific responses to questions
like pre-heat and post-heat; types of filler; etc.

Ed Huntress


HEY ED... I remember you from the YAHOO group (is that still around?) I was just looking around online and have a question...

Stainless steel 1" x 3" x .063 tube weighs 1.7 lbs/foot
Aluminum in 1" x 3" x .125 weighs 1.1 lbs/ft

Which would be better? on a 30" x 96" trailer (about 30' of material) it would be 51 lbs (SS) verses 33 lbs (AL)

Remember the trailer is only 8' long and will never carry over 300 lbs.

THANKS,

James

On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:20:50 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


FYI, we have an article coming up soon on welding thinner gauges of
4130 (under 1/4", focus on tubes in the 16-gauge range), written by a
specialist at Hobart. I asked him to deal with all of the myths and
old-wive's tales and to give us the scientific responses to questions
like pre-heat and post-heat; types of filler; etc.

Ed Huntress


HEY ED... I remember you from the YAHOO group (is that still around?) I was just looking around online and have a question...

Hi James. You may have a different Ed in mind. I don't remember ever
having been on a Yahoo group, but maybe a long time ago. I've heard
that some of my stuff was re-posted there. So, maybe there is a
connection.


Stainless steel 1" x 3" x .063 tube weighs 1.7 lbs/foot
Aluminum in 1" x 3" x .125 weighs 1.1 lbs/ft

Which would be better? on a 30" x 96" trailer (about 30' of material) it would be 51 lbs (SS) verses 33 lbs (AL)

Remember the trailer is only 8' long and will never carry over 300 lbs.

THANKS,

James

The aluminum tube will deflect about 50% more than the steel one, but
that "springiness" may not be the big issue. In any kind of structure
with aluminum, the big questions are what kind of joints you're using
in your design and what will be the strength of those joints.

If your alternative is stainless, realize that it's about 10% less
stiff than carbon steel, and, as you know, it's harder to join.

--
Ed Huntress

On 8/7/2016 1:07 PM, wrote:

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.
...

Putting the deck over the wheels sounds like a really bad center-of-mass
situation. The wheels would be 30" apart, the deck about 26 - 28" high
and up to 300 pounds on the deck! And the center of mass of the load
might be, what, a couple of feet above the deck? That would bother me
and I don't bother easily.

Bob

On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


James, one of the things you might keep in mind is the arc of the
front/back of the kayaks when you go over a rounded drive or mound at
the beach/river. You don't want the kayak digging into the blacktop,
rocks, or dirt. Check your elevations, since the wheels will be in
the center. The end will be 8.5' back from the pivot point.

How will you fasten it to the bike? 3-point mini-pintle?

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.

Another possible suggestion is to tilt them a bit, ass-end up, like a
stinkbug. Keep half of it low while giving clearance.


As for the Hitch, still researching. I'd PREFER a hitch that pivots with the bike's lean, but so far I've only found a proprietary system that they won't sell separately from their trailer (Bushtec).

A standard ball hitch gives the least degree of movement, pintles are
better, and hinged swivels the best. Build your own out of 1" square
tubing? Limiting the play in _every_ joint/connection is essential,
too, especially if you're not going to give it any suspension.

Ride an old suspensionless 10-speed bike 1/4 mile and you'll see why I
say that. Suspension, shocks, and large tires entirely remove our
awareness of the shock the extremely rough (but smooth?) roads which
we travel on would otherwise give us. Trailers take a real beating.

--
I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the
freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of
those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
--James Madison

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
On 8/7/2016 1:07 PM, wrote:

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I
still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels
Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but
the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping
the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.
...

Putting the deck over the wheels sounds like a really bad
center-of-mass situation. The wheels would be 30" apart, the deck
about 26 - 28" high and up to 300 pounds on the deck! And the
center of mass of the load might be, what, a couple of feet above
the deck? That would bother me and I don't bother easily.

Bob

A common design has low side rails that can support wider loads.
http://www.johnsontrailerco.com/sing...r-wside-rails/
A neighbor brought home a garden shed that weighed at least 2500 lbs
on the side rails of his double-axle trailer, certain that I could
find a way to lift it off and lower it onto concrete blocks.

Atwood fold-down stabilizers are lighter alternatives to crank-down
trailer tongue jacks:
https://www.amazon.com/Atwood-82301-.../dp/B000BGM51A

https://www.nueratrailerparts.com/

--jsw

Hi Larry,

I'm actually planning on using a Timbren suspension system http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Axle...n/A4RS440.html It's highly sensitive and will take most of the bounce out of the trailer.

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:27:15 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle. It'll be
used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked 17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)

7075 is very strong, and pretty darn corrossion resistant as aluminum alloys
go. 5052 and 5086 are more corrosion resistant, and are the most common
marine grade alloys. 5086 is also quite strong.

Remember that most MC hitches are only rated for about 300lbs GROSS towing
capacity, and you need to have just the right amount of weight on the hitch.



MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions &
wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

6061T6?

On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 18:08:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hi Larry,

I'm actually planning on using a Timbren suspension system http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Axle...n/A4RS440.html It's highly sensitive and will take most of the bounce out of the trailer.

Hey, pretty cool. Looks like air-ride bags for trailers. Good show.
They look very well built, too.

--
I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the
freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of
those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
--James Madison

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:49:32 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle. It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked 17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com
Though aluminum is tempting I would lean toward mild steel instead. By
weight the steel and aluminum are virtually the same stiffness. Of
course aluminum will have better corrosion resistance but the steel
can be painted easily. When in comes to joining though the steel has
the advantage. Especially when you have towed your kayaks to some
remote area, bent something on your trailer, and the only person close
by that can weld it just has a 115 volt wire feed welder loaded with
flux core wire.
Eric

On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


James, one of the things you might keep in mind is the arc of the
front/back of the kayaks when you go over a rounded drive or mound at
the beach/river. You don't want the kayak digging into the blacktop,
rocks, or dirt. Check your elevations, since the wheels will be in
the center. The end will be 8.5' back from the pivot point.

How will you fasten it to the bike? 3-point mini-pintle?

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.

As for the Hitch, still researching. I'd PREFER a hitch that pivots with the bike's lean, but so far I've only found a proprietary system that they won't sell separately from their trailer (Bushtec).

Hitch? Simply put a decent sized air coupler between the hitch and
the trailer

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...r&_sacat=12576

You will of course have a universal joint or a swivel, then the above
coupler. Using 1/2" or 3/4" air coupler allows the thing to pivot and
swivel in line and act as a quick connect for your trailer as well. No
need to break out a tool to remove the trailer..simply pull the ring
and disconnect it.


---
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https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 17:30:32 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/7/2016 1:07 PM, wrote:

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.
...

Putting the deck over the wheels sounds like a really bad center-of-mass
situation. The wheels would be 30" apart, the deck about 26 - 28" high
and up to 300 pounds on the deck! And the center of mass of the load
might be, what, a couple of feet above the deck? That would bother me
and I don't bother easily.

Bob

Very well stated. there is no good reason not to put the axle
directly under the deck.

---
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On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 18:08:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hi Larry,

I'm actually planning on using a Timbren suspension system http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Axle...n/A4RS440.html It's highly sensitive and will take most of the bounce out of the trailer.

Big question at this point...is what is the MINIMUM weight that the
Timbren will properly work at. Looking at it...Im going to say...you
are way way too light to get it working properly.

You would be better off making a sliding shackle and stuffing in a
piece of urathane..and hell of a lot cheaper


---
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On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 21:38:13 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 5 Aug 2016 09:27:15 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle. It'll be
used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked 17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)

7075 is very strong, and pretty darn corrossion resistant as aluminum alloys
go. 5052 and 5086 are more corrosion resistant, and are the most common
marine grade alloys. 5086 is also quite strong.

Remember that most MC hitches are only rated for about 300lbs GROSS towing
capacity, and you need to have just the right amount of weight on the hitch.



MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy, dimensions &
wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com

6061T6?

+1


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:49:32 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle.
It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked
17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy,
dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com
Though aluminum is tempting I would lean toward mild steel instead.
By
weight the steel and aluminum are virtually the same stiffness. Of
course aluminum will have better corrosion resistance but the steel
can be painted easily. When in comes to joining though the steel has
the advantage. Especially when you have towed your kayaks to some
remote area, bent something on your trailer, and the only person
close
by that can weld it just has a 115 volt wire feed welder loaded with
flux core wire.
Eric

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/met...num-20541.html
Jimbo1490:
"Welding is often not a choice since not all alloys of Al are
weldable. Even among the weldable alloys, the welds and immeditaely
adjacent areas will be weaker than the unwelded parts if the stock was
heat treated.

Aircraft are extensively riveted together. Until the latest generation
of large aircraft, riveting was used exclusively to join aluminum
panels together. This is still true of wings, which always serve as
fuel tanks. Leaks are a very minimal problem even though kero is much
slipperier than water. In aircraft, adhesive bonding is slowly
replacing riveting. For the most part it is not being replaced by
welding."

http://aviation.stackexchange.com/qu...d-construction
The Comet he mentioned was an early British aluminum airliner that
broke apart in flight from unexpected metal fatigue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

--jsw

On Mon, 8 Aug 2016 18:37:29 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:49:32 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle.
It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked
17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy,
dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com
Though aluminum is tempting I would lean toward mild steel instead.
By
weight the steel and aluminum are virtually the same stiffness. Of
course aluminum will have better corrosion resistance but the steel
can be painted easily. When in comes to joining though the steel has
the advantage. Especially when you have towed your kayaks to some
remote area, bent something on your trailer, and the only person
close
by that can weld it just has a 115 volt wire feed welder loaded with
flux core wire.
Eric

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/met...num-20541.html
Jimbo1490:
"Welding is often not a choice since not all alloys of Al are
weldable. Even among the weldable alloys, the welds and immeditaely
adjacent areas will be weaker than the unwelded parts if the stock was
heat treated.

Aircraft are extensively riveted together. Until the latest generation
of large aircraft, riveting was used exclusively to join aluminum
panels together. This is still true of wings, which always serve as
fuel tanks. Leaks are a very minimal problem even though kero is much
slipperier than water. In aircraft, adhesive bonding is slowly
replacing riveting. For the most part it is not being replaced by
welding."

http://aviation.stackexchange.com/qu...d-construction
The Comet he mentioned was an early British aluminum airliner that
broke apart in flight from unexpected metal fatigue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

--jsw


It is a bit more complex, at least for the Comet. In those days 2024,
which is an unweldable copper-aluminum alloy was the most commonly
used "aluminum" used for airplane construction (I think that may be
true today).

2024-T4 has an ultimate tensile strength of 68,000 psi and 6061-T6 an
ultimate tensile strength of 45,000 psi.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 18:08:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hi Larry,

I'm actually planning on using a Timbren suspension system http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Axle...n/A4RS440.html It's highly sensitive and will take most of the bounce out of the trailer.
Looks like a functional duplicate of the ols Austin Mini suspension
system - should work pretty good - perhaps a little "strong " for the
application (designed for 800 lb trailer load)

On Mon, 08 Aug 2016 11:55:10 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 17:30:32 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/7/2016 1:07 PM, wrote:

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.
...

Putting the deck over the wheels sounds like a really bad center-of-mass
situation. The wheels would be 30" apart, the deck about 26 - 28" high
and up to 300 pounds on the deck! And the center of mass of the load
might be, what, a couple of feet above the deck? That would bother me
and I don't bother easily.

Bob

Very well stated. there is no good reason not to put the axle
directly under the deck.


Or beside the deck, with the suspension he is using.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Mon, 8 Aug 2016 18:37:29 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:49:32 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle.
It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked
17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy,
dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com
Though aluminum is tempting I would lean toward mild steel instead.
By
weight the steel and aluminum are virtually the same stiffness. Of
course aluminum will have better corrosion resistance but the steel
can be painted easily. When in comes to joining though the steel has
the advantage. Especially when you have towed your kayaks to some
remote area, bent something on your trailer, and the only person
close
by that can weld it just has a 115 volt wire feed welder loaded with
flux core wire.
Eric

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/met...num-20541.html
Jimbo1490:
"Welding is often not a choice since not all alloys of Al are
weldable. Even among the weldable alloys, the welds and immeditaely
adjacent areas will be weaker than the unwelded parts if the stock was
heat treated.

Aircraft are extensively riveted together. Until the latest generation
of large aircraft, riveting was used exclusively to join aluminum
panels together. This is still true of wings, which always serve as
fuel tanks. Leaks are a very minimal problem even though kero is much
slipperier than water. In aircraft, adhesive bonding is slowly
replacing riveting. For the most part it is not being replaced by
welding."

http://aviation.stackexchange.com/qu...d-construction
The Comet he mentioned was an early British aluminum airliner that
broke apart in flight from unexpected metal fatigue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

--jsw

Aluminum boat trailers are routinely welded.

On Tue, 09 Aug 2016 06:32:43 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Mon, 8 Aug 2016 18:37:29 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:49:32 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hey everyone,

I'm planning to make an unusual trailer to tow by my motorcycle.
It'll be used to haul sculpture (under 300 lbs) or two stacked
17'-long sea kayaks.

Here are the basic features:

Aluminum (I want a total weight under 150 lbs if possible)
8' long flatbed deck
Tongue will be 'retractable' from 1' to 6' long.
2.5' wide
16" wheels (the sort used for motorcycle sidecars)


MY Questions:

1. What are the most important issues I may have?
2. What aluminum extrusions would be best (aluminum alloy,
dimensions & wall-thickness)

THANKS!

James
www.jameskelsey.com
Though aluminum is tempting I would lean toward mild steel instead.
By
weight the steel and aluminum are virtually the same stiffness. Of
course aluminum will have better corrosion resistance but the steel
can be painted easily. When in comes to joining though the steel has
the advantage. Especially when you have towed your kayaks to some
remote area, bent something on your trailer, and the only person
close
by that can weld it just has a 115 volt wire feed welder loaded with
flux core wire.
Eric

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/met...num-20541.html
Jimbo1490:
"Welding is often not a choice since not all alloys of Al are
weldable. Even among the weldable alloys, the welds and immeditaely
adjacent areas will be weaker than the unwelded parts if the stock was
heat treated.

Aircraft are extensively riveted together. Until the latest generation
of large aircraft, riveting was used exclusively to join aluminum
panels together. This is still true of wings, which always serve as
fuel tanks. Leaks are a very minimal problem even though kero is much
slipperier than water. In aircraft, adhesive bonding is slowly
replacing riveting. For the most part it is not being replaced by
welding."

http://aviation.stackexchange.com/qu...d-construction
The Comet he mentioned was an early British aluminum airliner that
broke apart in flight from unexpected metal fatigue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatigue_limit

--jsw


It is a bit more complex, at least for the Comet. In those days 2024,
which is an unweldable copper-aluminum alloy was the most commonly
used "aluminum" used for airplane construction (I think that may be
true today).

2024-T4 has an ultimate tensile strength of 68,000 psi and 6061-T6 an
ultimate tensile strength of 45,000 psi.
All of the aluminum on my plane is 6061T6 - rivetted.
All flight surfaces and flight structures.

wrote in message
...
...
All of the aluminum on my plane is 6061T6 - rivetted.
All flight surfaces and flight structures.

Aluminum boat trailers are routinely welded.

What's the difference?
--jsw

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 12:04:02 PM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 18:08:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hi Larry,

I'm actually planning on using a Timbren suspension system http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Axle...n/A4RS440.html It's highly sensitive and will take most of the bounce out of the trailer.

Big question at this point...is what is the MINIMUM weight that the
Timbren will properly work at. Looking at it...Im going to say...you
are way way too light to get it working properly.

You would be better off making a sliding shackle and stuffing in a
piece of urathane..and hell of a lot cheaper

Timbren has suspension that's rated as low as 400lbs max... I'm hoping that at 150lbs empty-weight of the trailer the suspension will still be active.

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 11:40:52 AM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:


James, one of the things you might keep in mind is the arc of the
front/back of the kayaks when you go over a rounded drive or mound at
the beach/river. You don't want the kayak digging into the blacktop,
rocks, or dirt. Check your elevations, since the wheels will be in
the center. The end will be 8.5' back from the pivot point.

How will you fasten it to the bike? 3-point mini-pintle?

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.

As for the Hitch, still researching. I'd PREFER a hitch that pivots with the bike's lean, but so far I've only found a proprietary system that they won't sell separately from their trailer (Bushtec).

Hitch? Simply put a decent sized air coupler between the hitch and
the trailer

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw...r&_sacat=12576

You will of course have a universal joint or a swivel, then the above
coupler. Using 1/2" or 3/4" air coupler allows the thing to pivot and
swivel in line and act as a quick connect for your trailer as well. No
need to break out a tool to remove the trailer..simply pull the ring
and disconnect it.


A brass AIR COUPLER? I'm skeptical that a coupler designed to sit still connecting an air line would survive the stresses and vibration of a trailer. I LIKE the idea, but. . . .

James

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 12:00:03 PM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 17:30:32 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/7/2016 1:07 PM, wrote:

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.
...

Putting the deck over the wheels sounds like a really bad center-of-mass
situation. The wheels would be 30" apart, the deck about 26 - 28" high
and up to 300 pounds on the deck! And the center of mass of the load
might be, what, a couple of feet above the deck? That would bother me
and I don't bother easily.

Bob

Very well stated. there is no good reason not to put the axle
directly under the deck.

I tend to AGREE with you. The ratio of height to width seems sketchy for ME as well. Since I could conceivably LOWER the trailer down to the ground since there's no axle with the Timbren suspension, the height would be determined by NOT scraping the trailer on bumps/hills/potholes and such.

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:45:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 12:00:03 PM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 07 Aug 2016 17:30:32 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

On 8/7/2016 1:07 PM, wrote:

Thanks for the advice on length. While I'm going with 16" wheels, I still haven't decided if I want the trailer deck OVER the wheels Between the wheels. A lower center of gravity makes good sense, but the wheels will limit width, and as you said, the odds of scrapping the back of the trailer/load goes up the lower it is.
...

Putting the deck over the wheels sounds like a really bad center-of-mass
situation. The wheels would be 30" apart, the deck about 26 - 28" high
and up to 300 pounds on the deck! And the center of mass of the load
might be, what, a couple of feet above the deck? That would bother me
and I don't bother easily.

Bob

Very well stated. there is no good reason not to put the axle
directly under the deck.

I tend to AGREE with you. The ratio of height to width seems sketchy for ME as well. Since I could conceivably LOWER the trailer down to the ground since there's no axle with the Timbren suspension, the height would be determined by NOT scraping the trailer on bumps/hills/potholes and such.

The possibility of scraping the entire -end- off the bottom kayak the
first time I went over a large mound or steep driveway would tend to
make me opt for a very high trailer. It would also make access to the
kayaks easier. The downside is center-of-gravity. Will you be mounting
the wheels at any angle to offset that? Or what about a telescoping
axle? In (30") to store, out (48") to drive around.

--
I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the
freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachment of
those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.
--James Madison

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 06:37:42 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
...
All of the aluminum on my plane is 6061T6 - rivetted.
All flight surfaces and flight structures.

Aluminum boat trailers are routinely welded.

What's the difference?
--jsw

The stuff on the plane is .016 to .030" thick. The trailer is minimum
3/16 inch - mostly 1/4 inch wall.

On Tue, 9 Aug 2016 09:35:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 12:04:02 PM UTC-7, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 7 Aug 2016 18:08:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

Hi Larry,

I'm actually planning on using a Timbren suspension system http://www.etrailer.com/Trailer-Axle...n/A4RS440.html It's highly sensitive and will take most of the bounce out of the trailer.

Big question at this point...is what is the MINIMUM weight that the
Timbren will properly work at. Looking at it...Im going to say...you
are way way too light to get it working properly.

You would be better off making a sliding shackle and stuffing in a
piece of urathane..and hell of a lot cheaper

Timbren has suspension that's rated as low as 400lbs max... I'm hoping that at 150lbs empty-weight of the trailer the suspension will still be active.
The suspension is rated at 400 lb PER UNIT - which is 800 lbs. It
will be almost solid with your load.