I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.


How much CO2 was released making, shipping and installing the panels? How
much of a waste disposal problem in 20 or so years?

"Buerste" on Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:44:53 -0400
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
. ..

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.


How much CO2 was released making, shipping and installing the panels? How
much of a waste disposal problem in 20 or so years?

Details, details - if it doesn't matter to Al Gore, then it
doesn't matter. The important thing is that now Stu can feel superior
to the rest of us, for his lower Carbon Footprint.
Oh, and if anyone needs carbon credits, I'm willing to sell the
offsets from not using my Learjet to fly to the coast. But hurry, I'm
thinking about upgrading, to not flying my private 737, in the near
future.


tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich.
"I wish you wouldn't use the mind control device - I get
these terrible migranes until it's finished." Jonathon

"Buerste" wrote in message
...

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.


How much CO2 was released making, shipping and installing the panels? How
much of a waste disposal problem in 20 or so years?

You know we don't do long term planning. If it gives a good appearance that
is the main thing that is required. Unintended consequences happen on
another guy's watch. Haven't you been paying attention?

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar
panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause
would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.


500 pounds of CO2 in six days? That's an incredible amount!
I'm a bit suspicious of that number. How can it be so high?
Anyone care to explain?
I don't believe it........
phil

On Jul 17, 6:33*pm, "Phil Kangas" wrote:
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar
panel system
claims to have saved: *Are you ready?

* * * * * * * * * * * *300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause
would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.

500 pounds of CO2 in six days? That's an incredible amount!
I'm a bit suspicious of that number. How can it be so high?
Anyone care to explain?
I don't believe it........
phil

Phil

Let me take a stab at that one, I will make educated guesses as
needed.
500 pounds C02 equates to 136 pounds of carbon and 364pound of Oxygen
I believe that they are assuming the solar power is replacing
electricity derived from coal, oil, or natural gas. I'll use coal
(because it seems easier right now) but I don't believe it will make a
big difference.
Assume that coal is mostly composed of long hydrocarbon chains the
carbon to hydrogen ratio is roughly 1/2 on an atom basis, but 12/2 on
a weight basis, so the 136 pounds of carbon came from 159 pounds of
coal.
A quick google search says that coal has 8000-13000 BTU per pound and
that a BTU equals 2.93X10^-4 KWh, Assume that power generation is 50%
efficient at extracting the energy in coal. So with a little math
Stu's solar electric system has generated 3.7 KWh worth of
electricity.

CarlBoyd

"Carl" wrote in message
...
On Jul 17, 6:33 pm, "Phil Kangas" wrote:
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar
panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause
would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.

500 pounds of CO2 in six days? That's an incredible amount!
I'm a bit suspicious of that number. How can it be so high?
Anyone care to explain?
I don't believe it........
phil

Phil

Let me take a stab at that one, I will make educated guesses as
needed.
500 pounds C02 equates to 136 pounds of carbon and 364pound of Oxygen
I believe that they are assuming the solar power is replacing
electricity derived from coal, oil, or natural gas. I'll use coal
(because it seems easier right now) but I don't believe it will make a
big difference.
Assume that coal is mostly composed of long hydrocarbon chains the
carbon to hydrogen ratio is roughly 1/2 on an atom basis, but 12/2 on
a weight basis, so the 136 pounds of carbon came from 159 pounds of
coal.
A quick google search says that coal has 8000-13000 BTU per pound and
that a BTU equals 2.93X10^-4 KWh, Assume that power generation is 50%
efficient at extracting the energy in coal. So with a little math
Stu's solar electric system has generated 3.7 KWh worth of
electricity.

CarlBoyd

Carl: Our average usage has been about 40kwh/day. Our meter numbers are
slightly decreasing. We appear to be generating more than we use...
According again to the display we are producing around 40+kwh/day. 30-230w
panels. For me the best part is to watch the meter wheel turn backwards....

"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
...

"Stu Fields" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.


500 pounds of CO2 in six days? That's an incredible amount! I'm a bit
suspicious of that number. How can it be so high? Anyone care to explain?
I don't believe it........
phil

Now I don't blame you a bit. Just think if 1,000 people had the same size
system going, not hard to believe, that would be 500,000 # of Co2 saved in 6
days. That would mean 30M#/yr. Lets see...would that mean the power plants
could go back to burning diesel and coal?? Would we have to artificially
inject Co2 into the atmosphere for plant life? Yeah 500# in 6 days causes
my eyebrow to raise, but that is what the display says. Maybe its really
grams...

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:07:22 -0700, Stu Fields wrote:
"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel
system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.

500 pounds of CO2 in six days? That's an incredible amount! I'm a bit
suspicious of that number. How can it be so high? Anyone care to
explain? I don't believe it........
phil

Now I don't blame you a bit. Just think if 1,000 people had the same
size system going, not hard to believe, that would be 500,000 # of Co2
saved in 6 days. That would mean 30M#/yr. Lets see...would that mean
the power plants could go back to burning diesel and coal?? Would we
have to artificially inject Co2 into the atmosphere for plant life? Yeah
500# in 6 days causes my eyebrow to raise, but that is what the display
says. Maybe its really grams...

You could save 1 KG of CO2 a day by not exhaling:

"The average person has a breath with the volue of 500ml (0.5l)

"A normal intake of breath is normal atmospheric composition, as such
contains 0.0360% CO2 or 0.18ml of CO2 intake. However we breathe out
about 5% CO2 or 25ml with an average of 13,000 breaths a day. Thats
325,000ml (325L )of CO2 Which means by the end of the day, a person on
average will exhale 1kg of CO2. Now add there are 6 billion people alive
we can say humans exhale 6 billion kg of CO2 a day.

"Compare that to the fact that as a rough estimate, the burning of one
litre of gasoline produces about 2.4 pounds (1.08kg) of CO2. A really good
north American car will get 40mpg which is still only 18km to the litre,
which means for every 18 km that you drive, you will release 2.4 lbs (1.08
kg) of CO2 or roughly what you breathe in a day. Source(s): Climate Change
Research"
-- http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3091421AA830QK

Just a thought.... ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:36:15 -0700, Rich the Cynic
wrote the following:

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 19:07:22 -0700, Stu Fields wrote:
"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel
system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.

500 pounds of CO2 in six days? That's an incredible amount! I'm a bit
suspicious of that number. How can it be so high? Anyone care to
explain? I don't believe it........
phil

Now I don't blame you a bit. Just think if 1,000 people had the same
size system going, not hard to believe, that would be 500,000 # of Co2
saved in 6 days. That would mean 30M#/yr. Lets see...would that mean
the power plants could go back to burning diesel and coal?? Would we
have to artificially inject Co2 into the atmosphere for plant life? Yeah
500# in 6 days causes my eyebrow to raise, but that is what the display
says. Maybe its really grams...

You could save 1 KG of CO2 a day by not exhaling:

"The average person has a breath with the volue of 500ml (0.5l)

"A normal intake of breath is normal atmospheric composition, as such
contains 0.0360% CO2 or 0.18ml of CO2 intake. However we breathe out
about 5% CO2 or 25ml with an average of 13,000 breaths a day. Thats
325,000ml (325L )of CO2 Which means by the end of the day, a person on
average will exhale 1kg of CO2. Now add there are 6 billion people alive
we can say humans exhale 6 billion kg of CO2 a day.

"Compare that to the fact that as a rough estimate, the burning of one
litre of gasoline produces about 2.4 pounds (1.08kg) of CO2. A really good
north American car will get 40mpg which is still only 18km to the litre,
which means for every 18 km that you drive, you will release 2.4 lbs (1.08
kg) of CO2 or roughly what you breathe in a day. Source(s): Climate Change
Research"
-- http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...3091421AA830QK

Just a thought.... ;-)

Rich, please now compare how many extra breaths that carload or
busload of people would expend hoofin' it from place to place for that
liter of gas. I'll bet the gas is more efficient in the long run, not
to mention getting people to work on time, getting all errands done in
the same day, etc.

--
Exercise ferments the humors, casts them into their proper channels,
throws off redundancies, and helps nature in those secret distributions,
without which the body cannot subsist in its vigor, nor the soul act
with cheerfulness. -- Joseph Addison, The Spectator, July 12, 1711

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 18:33:41 -0400, Phil Kangas wrote:
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.

500 pounds of CO2 in six days? That's an incredible amount! I'm a bit
suspicious of that number. How can it be so high? Anyone care to explain?
I don't believe it........

The software was provided by IPCC....

Cheers!
Rich

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 08:56:55 -0700, Stu Fields wrote:
"Stu Fields" wrote in message
.. .
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.

I made a mistake the thing this am says 500# of Co2 saved.

Is this the same software that the IPCC used to give use the hockey stick?

Thanks,
Rich

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:56:22 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:

I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.


So you are no longer mig welding with any Co2 related product?

G

Gunner


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:56:22 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:

I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.


So you are no longer mig welding with any Co2 related product?

G

Gunner

Nope. I've never done the MIG thing. I'm a TIGer and only use pure Argon..
And use the Co2 saved to belabor my Green Friends. I can't get too excited
about the Green movement until they start including population as a major
factor.

"Stu Fields" on Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:08:24 -0700 typed
in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:56:22 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:

I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.


So you are no longer mig welding with any Co2 related product?

G

Gunner

Nope. I've never done the MIG thing. I'm a TIGer and only use pure Argon..
And use the Co2 saved to belabor my Green Friends. I can't get too excited
about the Green movement until they start including population as a major
factor.

If only they would cease to exhale CO2 with every breathe.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Stu Fields" wrote:

Nope. I've never done the MIG thing. I'm a TIGer and only use pure Argon..
And use the Co2 saved to belabor my Green Friends. I can't get too excited
about the Green movement until they start including population as a major
factor.

Think how much carbon is saved by keeping an illegal in mexico.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 13:21:16 -0700, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 07:56:22 -0700, "Stu Fields" wrote:

I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

If Al Gore is reading this a text message of applause would be nice.


So you are no longer mig welding with any Co2 related product?

G


He's mig welding on solar cells? Damn! That's a lot of electricity!

Thanks,
Rich

On Fri, 23 Jul 2010 17:37:24 -0700, Rich the Cynic
wrote:

He's mig welding on solar cells? Damn!

I've been doing various kinds of welding on solar and wind power for
about 15 years.
http://www.citlink.net/~wmbjk/images...28Small%29.jpg

That's a lot of electricity!

Not really. I probably average about 4kW when welding, but that's
usually not for very long. An hour of "welding" tends to be about 55
minutes of fitting, jigging, grinding, etc. 5 minutes at 4kW and 10
cents per kWh is about 3 cents worth. Most days when I'm welding, the
overhead lighting, grinders, saws and air tools use more energy.

Wayne

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:16:30 -0700, Steve Ackman
wrote:


It takes a LOT of energy to produce PV panels. From
what I've read,

Let's see the cite. 'Cause I've read that Elvis is alive, working at
7-eleven by day, and posting to usenet at night. :-)

a PV panel will never make up the
carbon it cost in its expected 25 year life span.

This study says 3 years for energy payback.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf This one says 6 years for
carbon payback. http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2642/1/2642.pdf Both numbers
expected to improve substantially.

Wayne

wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:16:30 -0700, Steve Ackman
wrote:


It takes a LOT of energy to produce PV panels. From
what I've read,

Let's see the cite. 'Cause I've read that Elvis is alive, working at
7-eleven by day, and posting to usenet at night. :-)

a PV panel will never make up the
carbon it cost in its expected 25 year life span.

This study says 3 years for energy payback.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

That didn't look like MANUFACTURING payback, just purchase cost payback

This one says 6 years for
carbon payback. http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2642/1/2642.pdf Both numbers
expected to improve substantially.

Wayne!
You might want to read that one again...
It said "
The carbon payback for solar thermal system is 2 years,
the BIPV system has a payback period of 6 years.

Simple economic payback for both systems is over 50 years(!)

At no time did they say anything about MANUFACTURING payback!


Wayne


--

Richard Lamb

On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 16:38:02 -0500, cavelamb
wrote:

wrote:
On Sun, 25 Jul 2010 11:16:30 -0700, Steve Ackman
wrote:


It takes a LOT of energy to produce PV panels. From
what I've read,

Let's see the cite. 'Cause I've read that Elvis is alive, working at
7-eleven by day, and posting to usenet at night. :-)

a PV panel will never make up the
carbon it cost in its expected 25 year life span.

This study says 3 years for energy payback.
http://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy04osti/35489.pdf

That didn't look like MANUFACTURING payback, just purchase cost payback

I don't know what the heck you're talking about. The chart on the
first page is clearly titled "*energy* payback of rooftop pv systems".
The first paragraph explains that it takes energy to build the
product, and the summary of data says that the product makes more
energy in a small percentage of its lifetime than was required to
create it. NREL says up to 3 years, while some others rate it in
months, depending on the variables. People who pretend that PV
consumes more energy than it produces are promulgating a long-debunked
myth.

This one says 6 years for
carbon payback. http://eprints.ucl.ac.uk/2642/1/2642.pdf Both numbers
expected to improve substantially.

Wayne!
You might want to read that one again...
It said "
The carbon payback for solar thermal system is 2 years,
the BIPV system has a payback period of 6 years.

??? There seems to be an echo in here. :-)

Simple economic payback for both systems is over 50 years(!)

That wasn't at issue here. But simple economic payback for most of US
is much shorter, some people report only a few years in good-sun, high
utility-rate areas. In low-sun, low-rate areas, there is no simple
payback, especially since we're fine with putting off the cost of so
many things onto future generations, and hence frequently exclude
obvious outside costs. For example, if you believe that PV is
expensive, then think about how much of our healthcare costs are the
result of pollution from power production. Too much work? Then see
here http://www.usdebtclock.org/ for a partial tally of how well that
"easier for someone else to pay later" strategy is working out.

At no time did they say anything about MANUFACTURING payback!

Page 4, table 1. Note "embodied energy and carbon". How do you
imagine that those get into the product? See here for more details and
references. www.ongrid.net/papers/PVvsInputEnergySWCph.pdf

Wayne

On 7/25/2010 11:16 AM, Steve Ackman wrote:
, on Sat, 17 Jul 2010
07:56:22 -0700, Stu Fields, wrote:
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

It takes a LOT of energy to produce PV panels. From
what I've read, a PV panel will never make up the
carbon it cost in its expected 25 year life span.

How much energy is required to plant crops and
create oil from the harvest?

Does it take longer than 25 years?

--Winston -- Needs to know

On 7/26/2010 9:19 AM, Winston wrote:
On 7/25/2010 11:16 AM, Steve Ackman wrote:
, on Sat, 17 Jul 2010
07:56:22 -0700, Stu Fields, wrote:
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

It takes a LOT of energy to produce PV panels. From
what I've read, a PV panel will never make up the
carbon it cost in its expected 25 year life span.

How much energy is required to plant crops and
create oil from the harvest?

Does it take longer than 25 years?

While it's possible to do that and it is efficient from an energy
viewpoint we're already seeing the unintended consequences in rising
food prices.

On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:19:00 -0700, Winston
wrote the following:

On 7/25/2010 11:16 AM, Steve Ackman wrote:
, on Sat, 17 Jul 2010
07:56:22 -0700, Stu Fields, wrote:
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

It takes a LOT of energy to produce PV panels. From
what I've read, a PV panel will never make up the
carbon it cost in its expected 25 year life span.

How much energy is required to plant crops and
create oil from the harvest?

Does it take longer than 25 years?

Not much at all, and no, respectively. Any other questions?

--
It is pretty hard to tell what does bring happiness;
poverty and wealth have both failed.
-- Kin Hubbard

On 7/26/2010 7:48 PM, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:19:00 -0700,
wrote the following:

On 7/25/2010 11:16 AM, Steve Ackman wrote:
, on Sat, 17 Jul 2010
07:56:22 -0700, Stu Fields, wrote:
I forgot to mention in 6 days of operation, our new solar panel system
claims to have saved: Are you ready?

300# of Co2

It takes a LOT of energy to produce PV panels. From
what I've read, a PV panel will never make up the
carbon it cost in its expected 25 year life span.

How much energy is required to plant crops and
create oil from the harvest?

Does it take longer than 25 years?

Not much at all, and no, respectively. Any other questions?

Sure!

It has taken many times the carbon released by oil to
grow its precursor plants and convert them to petrochemicals
over a time scale of millions of years, yes?

When is the carbon cost recovered, if we applied the same
bookkeeping techniques to oil as we do to alternative solar?

Plant and harvest hundreds of acres. Seal the crops in a super
pressure chamber for say 5 million years. Decant, refine
and enjoy. When will that oil make up the carbon it cost to
produce? Let's go with 'never', yes?

Let's break the horses legs *after* the race. Then our
performance comparisons might have some validity.

--Winston