"Ed Huntress" wrote in message news:...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message news:...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...
I am trying to glue a 0.006" brass foil to a mild steel plate. I have
done it in the past but forgot what I used (note to self: keep better
records!).

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results
are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the glues
do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

You have several issues here. First, as others have mentioned, copper and
its alloys develop a thin, weak, invisible oxide layer in seconds.
Second, JB Weld is filled and is not formulated as an adhesive, but
rather as a kind of hybrid filler/so-so adhesive. Cyanoacrylate and
epoxy, unless they're formulated for high peel resistance, have terrible
resistance to peel and cleavage, which is what you're going to run into
with material that's 0.006" thick.

Everything is working against you. g

Tawwwwm suggested a laminate adhesive. That will cure a lot of ills,
because it doesn't get real hard and it does very well with peel loads.
Its ultimate strength isn't particularly high but it may well produce the
strongest bond in this case because most other adhesives that are
stronger are also less peel-resistant.

But here's a suggestion to help get a stronger bond, no matter what you
use (except with cyanoacrylate -- I don't think you can work fast enough
to beat its cure time). Use the "scratch-in" method, which works with the
other miserable metals that develop instant oxides -- stainless,
aluminum, magnesium, and, in my limited trials, copper.

The idea is to wet-sand the piece with a piece of fine sandpaper,
wet-dry, or Scotchbrite, with the part and the sanding medium soaked in
adhesive. You don't have to cut deep; just clean the surface well. The
key is to never let the part be exposed to air once you start. Keep it
covered with adhesive. If it produces too much sanding sludge, wet a rag
with adhesive and wipe the part, making sure you keep it wet and NEVER
let air touch it. If you wipe it dry, re-sand and do it all over again.

I haven't used the vicious laminate adhesive for years, but my
recollection is that it dries very, very fast. You'll have to work quick.
And work outdoors. You'll be slopping it around and the solvent is
horrid.

Do the same with the other piece you're adhering to, if you can (not if
it's wood). Then put them together wet -- or, in the case of laminate
adhesive, when they've reached the proper tacky stage.

You'll get a good mechanical bond, and it's one of the few ways to also
get a chemical bond with these metals. In volume production they use a
PAA anodize on aluminum, but the scratch-in method works about as well,
in my experience, and I've had success with it on other metals. I ran
some crude, informal tests with it back around 1980 when I was writing
about adhesive assembly for _American Machinist_.

I got this tip from the guys who founded the WEST System. They're epoxy
experts. They were NOT dealing with peel loads; how well you do with that
will depend mostly on your adhesive. No over-the-counter,
room-temperature-cure epoxy is very good in peel. Most cyanoacrylate is
dismal in that department, but there are some sort of gummy ones that may
do it.

Good luck!

--
Ed Huntress

I forgot one important thing: If you want to try epoxy, keep in mind that
its maximum strength, particularly in metal-to-metal bonding, is achieved
with a bond layer approximately 0.002" thick. Any thinner, and the
strength goes to pot -- especially peel/cleavage strength. I often leave a
little sanding grit in the joint to be sure I'm not starving it out.

It can tolerate a thicker layer, up to around 0.006" or so, without losing
a lot of strength.

--
Ed Huntress

I checked some old notes and I'm a little light on that dimension. Optimum
strength with good epoxies is achieved with a bond thickness around 0.005".
0.002" is the absolute minimum.

--
Ed Huntress

I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results
are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape, with
adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your solution?

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...




I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results
are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape, with
adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your solution?

Thanks. Unfortunately I want to do things to the other (non-glued) side of
the brass so that makes it difficult. Something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7623490279390/

The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the
patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...




I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the results
are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop, Jelly
cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape, with
adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your solution?

Thanks. Unfortunately I want to do things to the other (non-glued) side of
the brass so that makes it difficult. Something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7623490279390/

The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the
patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

That's beautiful, Michael.

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...




I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using
school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape, with
adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your solution?

Thanks. Unfortunately I want to do things to the other (non-glued) side
of the brass so that makes it difficult. Something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7623490279390/

The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the
patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

That's beautiful, Michael.

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.

Thank you.

The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those
processes the whole brass face just popped off.
Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in
technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion. I am running a few
more test pieces with different scrap brass and two different epoxies. I am
also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a control.

After that it is the turn of the solder paste...

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...




I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using
school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for
24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape,
with adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your
solution?

Thanks. Unfortunately I want to do things to the other (non-glued) side
of the brass so that makes it difficult. Something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7623490279390/

The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the
patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

That's beautiful, Michael.

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.

Thank you.

The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those
processes the whole brass face just popped off.

Jeez. You're snake-bitten on this job. Something is funny here, because,
even with vulnerability to peel, no adhesive appropriate for metal should
just "pop off," especially after you've given the work some tooth. You may
not be getting much chemical adhesion but just the mechanical adhesion,
alone, should prevent that from happening.

Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in
technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion.

Now it sounds like an adhesive problem. What adhesive are you using?

I am running a few more test pieces with different scrap brass and two
different epoxies. I am also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a
control.

Excellent. Tests are good.


After that it is the turn of the solder paste...

Ok, but after looking at the photos, I'm wondering why you're using such
thin brass stock. It looks like you're doing it the hard way, but maybe
there's something that isn't apparent from the photos.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2010-07-11, Michael Koblic wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.

Thank you.

The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those
processes the whole brass face just popped off.
Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in
technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion. I am running a few
more test pieces with different scrap brass and two different epoxies. I am
also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a control.

After that it is the turn of the solder paste...

What about contact cement? Either Pliobond or Weldwood. (It
might take it a while to dry properly given the metal film which the
vapors have to go out through.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...




I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using
school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for 24
hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape, with
adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your solution?

Thanks. Unfortunately I want to do things to the other (non-glued) side
of the brass so that makes it difficult. Something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7623490279390/

The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the
patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

That's beautiful, Michael.

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.


Thank you.

The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those
processes the whole brass face just popped off.
Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in
technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion. I am running a few
more test pieces with different scrap brass and two different epoxies. I am
also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a control.

After that it is the turn of the solder paste...

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

-Sorry if this appears as a duplicate, the first message did not show.

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...




I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using
school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for
24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape,
with adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your
solution?

Thanks. Unfortunately I want to do things to the other (non-glued) side
of the brass so that makes it difficult. Something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7623490279390/

The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the
patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

That's beautiful, Michael.

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.


Thank you.

The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those
processes the whole brass face just popped off.
Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in
technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion. I am running a few
more test pieces with different scrap brass and two different epoxies. I
am
also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a control.

After that it is the turn of the solder paste...

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off happening
when you subject the assembly to a significant change in temperature? The
thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater than that for steel.
Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't going to develop a lot of shear
force, it could be enough, if heat is an issue.

Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the
quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all but
useless for making a permanent bond to metal.

A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's, ought to
do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a laminating
adhesive than with epoxy.

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
"Ed Huntress" wrote:

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Bill Noble" wrote in message
...




I have run several small scale trials and for some reason the
results are dismal: JB Weld, Devcon 2-ton, E6000, household Goop,
Jelly cyanoacrylate - the brass just peels off like I am using
school glue!

I abrade both surfaces. I clean with acetone. I leave to cure for
24 hours at least (that includes the CA). Nada!

What am I missing? BTW it is the *brass* side of things where the
glues do not stick.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I have in the past bought brass, aluminum and stainless steel tape,
with adhesive on one side, in rolls - perhaps that will be your
solution?

Thanks. Unfortunately I want to do things to the other (non-glued) side
of the brass so that makes it difficult. Something like this:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...72157623490279
390/

The process is documented in the videos in the same set if you have the
patience for it. Note that I had trouble with epoxy then :-).

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

That's beautiful, Michael.

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.

Thank you.

The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those
processes the whole brass face just popped off.

Jeez. You're snake-bitten on this job. Something is funny here, because,
even with vulnerability to peel, no adhesive appropriate for metal should
just "pop off," especially after you've given the work some tooth. You may
not be getting much chemical adhesion but just the mechanical adhesion,
alone, should prevent that from happening.

Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in
technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion.

Now it sounds like an adhesive problem. What adhesive are you using?

Pop off? My suspicion is that the pieces are not clean enough. It can be
surprisingly hard to get *all* the grease et al off of things.


Joe Gwinn




I am running a few more test pieces with different scrap brass and two
different epoxies. I am also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a
control.

Excellent. Tests are good.


After that it is the turn of the solder paste...

Ok, but after looking at the photos, I'm wondering why you're using such
thin brass stock. It looks like you're doing it the hard way, but maybe
there's something that isn't apparent from the photos.

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[...]

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off happening
when you subject the assembly to a significant change in temperature? The
thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater than that for steel.
Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't going to develop a lot of
shear force, it could be enough, if heat is an issue.

Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the
quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all but
useless for making a permanent bond to metal.

A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's, ought to
do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a laminating
adhesive than with epoxy.


You me and all!

This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would try
gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens. I found
two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and one from a
unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with steel-to-steel
controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton epoxy (I wish this one
worked - it is clear and relatively low viscosity, therefore easy to spread
over large areas).
Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB Weld
joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with moderate
degree of force.
Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not like
the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any sort of
glue.

I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by the
way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with 120 grit and
left the other half intact. I coated both halves with flux and put a small
pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions melted and flowed easily
coating the foil flawlessly.

In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular application
and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now however, I am obsessed
with finding an answer to this irritating problem.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[...]

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off happening
when you subject the assembly to a significant change in temperature? The
thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater than that for steel.
Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't going to develop a lot of
shear force, it could be enough, if heat is an issue.

Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the
quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all but
useless for making a permanent bond to metal.

A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's, ought
to do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a laminating
adhesive than with epoxy.


You me and all!

This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would try
gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens. I found
two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and one from a
unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with steel-to-steel
controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton epoxy (I wish this
one worked - it is clear and relatively low viscosity, therefore easy to
spread over large areas).
Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB
Weld joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with
moderate degree of force.
Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not like
the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any sort of
glue.

I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by the
way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with 120 grit
and left the other half intact. I coated both halves with flux and put a
small pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions melted and flowed
easily coating the foil flawlessly.

In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular application
and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now however, I am
obsessed with finding an answer to this irritating problem.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

You've really got me on this one, Michael. I can't imagine what's going on,
unless there is some kind of coating (possibly a protective coating applied
at the mill) that's just not coming off with normal cleaning and abrasion.

FWIW, regular JB Weld is only 30% - 40% epoxy. The rest is filler -- calcium
carbonate, a little iron, and some polymer or other. If that's working
better for you than the Devcon, then something is doubly strange.

I'm glad to hear you're obsessed about it, however. That means we'll
probably learn more from your efforts. d8-)

Good luck. There has to be something unsuspected going on. Brass isn't that
hard to glue, once you've gotten under the transparent layer of oxide.

--
Ed Huntress

On 2010-07-11, Michael Koblic wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

That's beautiful, Michael.

Since the thin brass doesn't appear to overhang anything, the peel issue
shouldn't be too bad.


Thank you.

The reason I am going through the trial again is that during one of those
processes the whole brass face just popped off.
Today I am sad to report another failed trial using the scratch-in
technique. There was not even a pretense of adhesion. I am running a few
more test pieces with different scrap brass and two different epoxies. I am
also running steel-to-steel parallel trial as a control.

After that it is the turn of the solder paste...

Hmm ... what about soldering brass metal screws to the brass
front (go for a thicker brass -- say from places which supply the brass
for engraved nameplated on trophys), fit the screws through holes
drilled in the steel backing, and spin brass nuts onto the screws. (Use
decorative ones if you figure too many people will be looking at the
back of the plate.)

Is there a reason you use such thin brass for the task?

Hmm ... another possibility is to spin the brass onto the steel,
folding the edge (a bit of excessive diameter) over a fairly sharp bevel
on the steel. Clamp the brass to the steel with a live center and a
wood spreader pressure plate while you do this -- and turn (bore) off
the ID after the OD is rolled over and gripping nicely.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-07-12, Ed Huntress wrote:

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

[ ... ]

This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would try
gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens. I found
two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and one from a
unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with steel-to-steel
controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton epoxy (I wish this
one worked - it is clear and relatively low viscosity, therefore easy to
spread over large areas).
Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB
Weld joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with
moderate degree of force.
Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not like
the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any sort of
glue.

I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by the
way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with 120 grit
and left the other half intact. I coated both halves with flux and put a
small pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions melted and flowed
easily coating the foil flawlessly.

What is a pallion? O.K. Apparently a very small square of
solder that has been flattened before cutting to squares.

In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular application
and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now however, I am
obsessed with finding an answer to this irritating problem.

[ ... ]

You've really got me on this one, Michael. I can't imagine what's going on,
unless there is some kind of coating (possibly a protective coating applied
at the mill) that's just not coming off with normal cleaning and abrasion.

Just a thought. Could it be an aluminum with an anodize layer
colored sorta brass?

But the solder experiment suggests otherwise.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Michael Koblic wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[...]

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off
happening when you subject the assembly to a significant change in
temperature? The thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater
than that for steel. Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't
going to develop a lot of shear force, it could be enough, if heat is
an issue.

Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the
quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all
but useless for making a permanent bond to metal.

A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's,
ought to do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a
laminating adhesive than with epoxy.


You me and all!

This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would try
gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens. I
found two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and one
from a unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with
steel-to-steel controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton
epoxy (I wish this one worked - it is clear and relatively low
viscosity, therefore easy to spread over large areas).
Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB
Weld joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with
moderate degree of force.
Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not
like the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any
sort of glue.

I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by
the way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with 120
grit and left the other half intact. I coated both halves with flux and
put a small pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions melted and
flowed easily coating the foil flawlessly.

In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular
application and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now
however, I am obsessed with finding an answer to this irritating problem.



Michael,

Just for the sake of proper scientific research, would you please repeat
the experiment and give the Devcon a week to cure?

Most epoxies get hard a long time before they get strong...

And yeah, I'm curious as all get out too...

--

Richard Lamb

On 7/12/2010 12:39 AM, cavelamb wrote:
Michael Koblic wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[...]

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off
happening when you subject the assembly to a significant change in
temperature? The thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater
than that for steel. Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't
going to develop a lot of shear force, it could be enough, if heat is
an issue.

Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the
quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all
but useless for making a permanent bond to metal.

A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's,
ought to do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a
laminating adhesive than with epoxy.


You me and all!

This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would
try gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens.
I found two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and
one from a unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with
steel-to-steel controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton
epoxy (I wish this one worked - it is clear and relatively low
viscosity, therefore easy to spread over large areas).
Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB
Weld joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with
moderate degree of force.
Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not
like the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel
any sort of glue.

I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by
the way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with
120 grit and left the other half intact. I coated both halves with
flux and put a small pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions
melted and flowed easily coating the foil flawlessly.

In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular
application and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now
however, I am obsessed with finding an answer to this irritating problem.



Michael,

Just for the sake of proper scientific research, would you please repeat
the experiment and give the Devcon a week to cure?

Most epoxies get hard a long time before they get strong...

And yeah, I'm curious as all get out too...

The solder working gives me an idea. Try heating and cooling a sample,
then doing the surface prep and bond. Might be something on it that
burns off or evaporates before it gets to soldering temperature.

On Jul 11, 9:31*pm, "Michael Koblic" wrote:

Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not like
the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any sort of
glue.


In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular application
and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now however, I am obsessed
with finding an answer to this irritating problem.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

I still think the answer is to use different epoxy. But while you are
trying different things, try heating a sample of the brass so you get
a relatively thick oxide coating on it. If you use a torch to do
this, then clean with some solvent. If you use an electric oven, then
do not bother to clean it. I think you will find that the oxidized
brass will bond better. Sounds crazy, but as long as you are trying
different approaches...................One experiment is worth a lot.

The differences between the brasses may be how much copper is in the
alloy.

Dan

" fired this volley in news:2fe27c7c-
:

The differences between the brasses may be how much copper is in the
alloy.

I'm thinking it may be lead that's giving you the problem. Even high-
quality enamels fail to adhere to lead. When the paint film cracks, the
entire layer sheets off.

Lead also tends to migrate to the surface of leaded brass during forming
processes.

LLoyd

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

You've really got me on this one, Michael. I can't imagine what's going
on, unless there is some kind of coating (possibly a protective coating
applied at the mill) that's just not coming off with normal cleaning and
abrasion.

FWIW, regular JB Weld is only 30% - 40% epoxy. The rest is filler --
calcium carbonate, a little iron, and some polymer or other. If that's
working better for you than the Devcon, then something is doubly strange.

I'm glad to hear you're obsessed about it, however. That means we'll
probably learn more from your efforts. d8-)

Good luck. There has to be something unsuspected going on. Brass isn't
that hard to glue, once you've gotten under the transparent layer of
oxide.


It is not, as I have demonstrated with those other pieces. I suspect that I
do not understand the mechanics of peel, however, the peel alone would not
explain the failure of the glue to adhere to brass while adhering
tenaciously to the steel side of the joint. Does it make a difference if it
is the side that is peeling as opposed to the side it is being peeled off
of?

Anyway, as this is getting old rather rapidly, two more tries:

1) A slightly thicker (0.015") brass, purchased in the same shop as the
0.006" way back. Same treatment but this time I did not run a steel-to-
steel control. Once the peel started the whole joint unravelled with little
difficulty with the same appearance, i.e. no glue stuck on the brass side.

2) Most important: I found the piece I started experimenting with
originally. Looks like the one on flickr except the brass face is battered
through rough handling.
a) I found a small part of the periphery that was not completely stuck
down. I got a tip of my pliers on it and tried a peel. To my surprise after
initial 2 mm or so there was *no* peel! The brass was well and truly stuck
to the steel. On the separated part you see bits of glue on both sides of
the joint.
I am trying to remember what I used at the time and keep coming up with
Household Amazing Goop: The stuff is horrible to use, very thick and hard to
spread. I understand that it may be of the same family as E6000.
b) To investigate the properties of the brass foil without the peel
effect coming into play I thought I had a unique opportunity he The brass
(which, BTW is from the same roll as all the other bits I have been
experimenting with) was well and truly stuck to the steel and thus rigid. So
I made another joint with the JBWeld using the existing piece ending up with
a sort of steel sandwich. Lo and behold, after 24 hours I could not separate
the joint by hand alone! After doing so with the help of a vise, the joint
looked as all the others, i.e. all the failure of adhesion was on the brass
side.

Thus one must believe in the magic properties of the Household Amazing Goop.
I wish I remembered how long I left the piece to cure at the time. The E6000
after 24 hours was no better than the others. Pity, as it is damn sight
easier to use than the Goop.

I have no reason to dispute what you say about the JB Weld, however, having
been playing with glues of all kinds for some time I find that on metal it
gives the most consistent results. I have not tried to cure the other
epoxies for a week as someone suggested. Even if the result improved why
bother if JBWeld will do the job quicker (in fact on most surfaces a medium
density cyanoacrylate is even quicker and the strength is comparable - I use
it when repositioning is not an issue).

As to the possible heat effect, the face popped off while I was cleaning up
the rim of the glued up piece in the Taig. I doubt there was a significant
heat generation involved.

There are now several compelling reasons for me to use thicker brass for
this in futu Less likely to peel, less sensitive to damage etc.

I shall do one more trial: Brass-to-brass using the Goop and E6000. I might
let them cure for a couple of days.


--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Jul 15, 12:36*am, "Michael Koblic" wrote:

I have no reason to dispute what you say about the JB Weld, however, having
been playing with glues of all kinds for some time I find that on metal it
gives the most consistent results. I have not tried to cure the other
epoxies for a week as someone suggested. Even if the result improved why
bother if JBWeld will do the job quicker (in fact on most surfaces a medium
density cyanoacrylate is even quicker and the strength is comparable - I use
it when repositioning is not an issue).

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

The JB Weld may work better because there is less epoxy. My
understanding is that epoxy destroys the oxide layer and therefore
results in no adhesion. So a thicker layer of oxide or less epoxy may
work better.


Dan

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

[...]


I shall do one more trial: Brass-to-brass using the Goop and E6000. I
might let them cure for a couple of days.

The clear winner was the Household Amazing Goop. It was not subtle. I wish
that stuff was easier to use!
I am left pondering what black magic chemistry is involved here...

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:13 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote:


"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

[...]


I shall do one more trial: Brass-to-brass using the Goop and E6000. I
might let them cure for a couple of days.

The clear winner was the Household Amazing Goop. It was not subtle. I wish
that stuff was easier to use!
I am left pondering what black magic chemistry is involved here...


I had the sole of my last pair of desert combat boots come loose at the
toe. Gooped it up good, put a brick on it for a couple days and 2 yrs
later..Im still wearing it.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

[...]


I shall do one more trial: Brass-to-brass using the Goop and E6000. I
might let them cure for a couple of days.

The clear winner was the Household Amazing Goop. It was not subtle. I wish
that stuff was easier to use!
I am left pondering what black magic chemistry is involved here...

Like the laminate adhesives, Household Goop is highly elastomeric. It's a
polypropylene/solvent adhesive. Those adhesives aren't especially strong in
tension or sheer, unlike epoxies, but they're the most peel-resistant types.

Most likely, it's a peel issue you were dealing with.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 16 Jul 2010 18:18:13 -0700, "Michael Koblic"
wrote the following:


"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

[...]


I shall do one more trial: Brass-to-brass using the Goop and E6000. I
might let them cure for a couple of days.

The clear winner was the Household Amazing Goop. It was not subtle. I wish
that stuff was easier to use!
I am left pondering what black magic chemistry is involved here...

Warm it and the applied pieces before use, Mikey. Latex paint and
caulk are the same way. The warmer they are, the easier it is to work
with 'em.

I'm really surprised that the Household Goop outperformed the E6000.
I have tubes of plumber/household/shoe Goop and E6000, and have almost
stopped using all but the E6000. It's a bit thinner and easier to use,
and it grips everything I've tried it on, including bookbindings,
quite well.

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 22:00:31 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[...]

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off happening
when you subject the assembly to a significant change in temperature? The
thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater than that for steel.
Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't going to develop a lot of
shear force, it could be enough, if heat is an issue.

Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the
quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all but
useless for making a permanent bond to metal.

A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's, ought
to do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a laminating
adhesive than with epoxy.


You me and all!

This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would try
gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens. I found
two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and one from a
unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with steel-to-steel
controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton epoxy (I wish this
one worked - it is clear and relatively low viscosity, therefore easy to
spread over large areas).
Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB
Weld joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with
moderate degree of force.
Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not like
the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any sort of
glue.

I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by the
way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with 120 grit
and left the other half intact. I coated both halves with flux and put a
small pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions melted and flowed
easily coating the foil flawlessly.

In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular application
and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now however, I am
obsessed with finding an answer to this irritating problem.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

You've really got me on this one, Michael. I can't imagine what's going on,
unless there is some kind of coating (possibly a protective coating applied
at the mill) that's just not coming off with normal cleaning and abrasion.

FWIW, regular JB Weld is only 30% - 40% epoxy. The rest is filler -- calcium
carbonate, a little iron, and some polymer or other. If that's working
better for you than the Devcon, then something is doubly strange.

I'm glad to hear you're obsessed about it, however. That means we'll
probably learn more from your efforts. d8-)

Good luck. There has to be something unsuspected going on. Brass isn't that
hard to glue, once you've gotten under the transparent layer of oxide.


Coming in late, but have recently tried the new West System GFlex 655K
thickened epoxy with good luck on Aluminum. It might be a good
candidate for brass, too. They claim it is "toughened" and has some
flexibility to handle stresses. Even can be used to repair aluminum
boats and cures underwater.

A call to Gougen Brothers might yield some good ideas. 866-937-8797

Karl Pearson

wrote in message
...
On Sun, 11 Jul 2010 22:00:31 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Michael Koblic" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

[...]

I continue to scratch my head over this one. Is the popping-off
happening
when you subject the assembly to a significant change in temperature?
The
thermal coefficient for brass is around 40% greater than that for
steel.
Although a 0.006"-thick sheet of brass isn't going to develop a lot of
shear force, it could be enough, if heat is an issue.

Otherwise, I suspect your epoxy. I assume you're not using one of the
quick-cure types, "5-minute" or "10-minute" stuff, because that's all
but
useless for making a permanent bond to metal.

A normal amine-cure, hardware-story epoxy adhesive, like Elmer's, ought
to do the job. But, again, I think you'd be better off with a
laminating
adhesive than with epoxy.


You me and all!

This is getting curiouser and curiouser. Yesterday I thought I would try
gluing different brass to the same steel just to see what happens. I
found
two scraps - one from a candle stick from a garage sale and one from a
unidentified plate I had for years. I did two set ups with
steel-to-steel
controls, one with JB Weld and one with Devcon 2-ton epoxy (I wish this
one worked - it is clear and relatively low viscosity, therefore easy to
spread over large areas).
Today, after 24 hours of curing, I could not separate either of the JB
Weld joints by hand. The Devcon joints could both be separated with
moderate degree of force.
Thus it is not the brass per se but *this* particular brass. It's not
like
the glue sticks to it in patches, it seems to positively repel any sort
of
glue.

I thought that if there was some weird coating on it it should show by
the
way it takes solder. I took a piece and cleaned half of it with 120 grit
and left the other half intact. I coated both halves with flux and put a
small pallion of solder on each half. Both pallions melted and flowed
easily coating the foil flawlessly.

In the end the answer may be simply to use different brass. All things
considered I would rather avoid using heat in this particular
application
and 0.006" foil is a pain to work with anyway. By now however, I am
obsessed with finding an answer to this irritating problem.

--
Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

You've really got me on this one, Michael. I can't imagine what's going
on,
unless there is some kind of coating (possibly a protective coating
applied
at the mill) that's just not coming off with normal cleaning and abrasion.

FWIW, regular JB Weld is only 30% - 40% epoxy. The rest is filler --
calcium
carbonate, a little iron, and some polymer or other. If that's working
better for you than the Devcon, then something is doubly strange.

I'm glad to hear you're obsessed about it, however. That means we'll
probably learn more from your efforts. d8-)

Good luck. There has to be something unsuspected going on. Brass isn't
that
hard to glue, once you've gotten under the transparent layer of oxide.


Coming in late, but have recently tried the new West System GFlex 655K
thickened epoxy with good luck on Aluminum. It might be a good
candidate for brass, too. They claim it is "toughened" and has some
flexibility to handle stresses. Even can be used to repair aluminum
boats and cures underwater.

A call to Gougen Brothers might yield some good ideas. 866-937-8797

Karl Pearson

That sounds like a possible candidate. In high-tech uses, the "toughening"
of epoxy is an adjustable thing that suppliers do my mixing in various
amounts of other polymers. JB Weld, in fact, contains some other polymer,
which is described in general category terms in their MSDS. In general these
trade off a small amount of sheer/tensile strength for greater peel/cleavage
strength.

The Gougeons have wrestled with cleavage problems (a similar, less extreme
issue than peel) with epoxy for over 40 years, and they're fastidious about
their products, so it's worth a try.

--
Ed Huntress