I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
(...)

Here's what it is doing. Not running.

(...)

And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

What kind of spray pattern do you get from the fuel injector?

--Winston

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

Not too familiar with Chrysler products, but I'd check the Idle Air Control
solenoid valve if it has one. Also check all the zip tubes and connections
downstream of the MAFS for leaks.

Try asking at rec.autos.makers.chrysler too...

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:51:56 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

They still made them that far up? Sorry, I'd rather have a toy with a
couple of gears missing.

Is there a way to check out your onboard computer? I had similar problems
with a Charger and a Shadow. Had to replace the whole damned computer in
both cases.

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 11:14:06 -0800, Winston
wrote:

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
(...)

Here's what it is doing. Not running.

(...)

And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

What kind of spray pattern do you get from the fuel injector?

--Winston
I don't know. The reason I know fuel is getting to them is the wet
plugs. I suppose all the injectors could go at once. I'll pull 'em and
see.
Eric

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:41:44 -0800, Sunworshipper
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:51:56 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

They still made them that far up? Sorry, I'd rather have a toy with a
couple of gears missing.
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have bought the piece of crap new I mean,
I've only got 210,000 miles out of it. A toyota would have gone at
least 210,001 miles.
Eric

SNIP

Try asking at rec.autos.makers.chrysler too...

Thanks, I'll do that.
Eric

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 13:07:38 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:41:44 -0800, Sunworshipper
wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 10:51:56 -0800, Eric R Snow
wrote:

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

They still made them that far up? Sorry, I'd rather have a toy with a
couple of gears missing.
Yeah, I guess I shouldn't have bought the piece of crap new I mean,
I've only got 210,000 miles out of it. A toyota would have gone at
least 210,001 miles.
Eric

It must be love. I don't know , I drove 200,000 mile toys in '75.

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.

Could be a weak coil. I had a ford taurus
that would fire the plugs fine sitting outside
the cylinder, but wouldn't light the fire under
compression. It was a bitch to find....

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct.

The last time I had that situation, the culprit was the timing belt. Can
you see the valves/cams through the oil cap? Do they move when you crank the
engine?

Vaughn

Please look at the "hall effect pickup" coil in the distributer , it is a
$20 fix and a known Dodge problem.

Pete


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
news:1110669032.56de9e5d4ed538603a73b7fa158dbe24@t eranews...
Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.

Could be a weak coil. I had a ford taurus
that would fire the plugs fine sitting outside
the cylinder, but wouldn't light the fire under
compression. It was a bitch to find....


Here too is where I found ut about weak coils. I shot-guned new parts in
untill the Dodge van ran then asked about the symptoms after the fact. I
never knew about coils under pressure before.

Why not go to the right auto forum to ask that question. Odds are that
you'll get a lot more answers a lot faster there.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

Abandon in place. Purge with inert gas and fill using a weak concrete
slurry.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Bob, more brain power and wisdom here...except me!

"Bob May" wrote in message
...
Why not go to the right auto forum to ask that question. Odds are that
you'll get a lot more answers a lot faster there.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?

Chuckle - all 92 Dodge Colts should end up as a yard ornament....
:-)
I know - JR's answer was probably meant for the next thread...
Grinned anyway..
Ken.


Abandon in place. Purge with inert gas and fill using a weak concrete
slurry.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

Bob May wrote:

Why not go to the right auto forum to ask that question. Odds are that
you'll get a lot more answers a lot faster there.

--
Why isn't there an Ozone Hole at the NORTH Pole?


LOL, why not follow your own advice and visit an atmospheric
forum with your question.

On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 15:10:44 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.

Could be a weak coil. I had a ford taurus
that would fire the plugs fine sitting outside
the cylinder, but wouldn't light the fire under
compression. It was a bitch to find....

Jim,
I had this occur with a bad rotor. It too was a bitch to find. The
clue was that a timing light would not trigger when the timing was
normal, but would when timing was way advanced. Right now the car
triggers a timing light. But if the light is more sensitive thatn the
one used before maybe it triggers even when there is no spark.
ERS

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 00:19:45 GMT, "Vaughn"
wrote:


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct.

The last time I had that situation, the culprit was the timing belt. Can
you see the valves/cams through the oil cap? Do they move when you crank the
engine?

Vaughn

Yes. And the belt is only about 10,000 miles old.
ERS

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:28:23 GMT, "Pete"
wrote:


Pete, it has spark. So, I'm thinking that the pickup is fine.
Eric
Please look at the "hall effect pickup" coil in the distributer , it is a
$20 fix and a known Dodge problem.

Pete


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

Eric,

You didn't say, but I assume that engine is injected rather than carbureted.

The fact that you "have fuel pressure" may not be enough. Did you attach a
gauge to the fuel rail (or injector inlet line on a t.b. system) and get the
_right_ pressure? Most injectors have an anti-backflow poppet that must be
overcome by fuel pump pressure before the injector(s) will fill.

My daughter's Buick Century wouldn't run (just about like yours). The car
had the same "too lean" symptom you mentioned, and eventually quit running
altogether.

We had fuel pressure, demonstrated with the old "thumb over the outlet hose"
test. G But when we finally gave up all the other trouble-shooting and
attached a gauge to the fuel rail, it turned out the pressure was about
20psi low -- it couldn't overcome the poppet springs in the injectors. A
new fuel pump fixed it instantly.
[well... as instantly as one can drop the tank and put in a new pump :-( ]

Some cars don't have an easy-access port on the rail or injector inlet to
which you can attach a gauge (the Century didn't). You might have to do some
minor plumbing to get there.

LLoyd

"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:28:23 GMT, "Pete"
wrote:


Pete, it has spark. So, I'm thinking that the pickup is fine.
Eric
Please look at the "hall effect pickup" coil in the distributer , it is a
$20 fix and a known Dodge problem.

Pete


"Eric R Snow" wrote in message
.. .
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

In article , Eric R Snow says...

I had this occur with a bad rotor. It too was a bitch to find. The
clue was that a timing light would not trigger when the timing was
normal, but would when timing was way advanced. Right now the car
triggers a timing light. But if the light is more sensitive thatn the
one used before maybe it triggers even when there is no spark.

Back to basics: the motor needs spark (at the right time), fuel (in
more or less the correct amount), and compression - if it has those
things it'll run.

Spark: you're aware that the breakdown voltage in air is a lot
less than in the combustion chamber at pressure - and are aware
of the 'will it trigger a timing light' test. And the timing
is to spec on the marks it seems.

So that's probably right out.

Fuel: you say the plugs are wet - but have you tried cranking it
while giving it a shot of carb cleaner into the throttle body? It's
tough to know if 'wet plugs' are correct or not, but most motors
will at least give a shudder and a brief run if fed carb cleaner,
when the fuel is somehow off kilter. It's a quick easy test.

Compression: I take it you've run a compression test on this
motor. Granted the valve timing is correct but are the valves
really closing all the way. Another issue is there some kind
of exhaust obstruction (cat converter, potato up the tailpipe, etc)
that would cause it to idle but not take throttle. Badly blown
head gasket maybe.

When you are done, the trouble is going to fall into one (well,
at *least* one) of those catagories. The problem is figuring
out which of the diagnostics you've been running through is giving
an incorrect 'pass' when there's really something wrong in that
area.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 02:28:23 GMT, "Pete"
wrote:

Please look at the "hall effect pickup" coil in the distributer , it is a
$20 fix and a known Dodge problem.

Pete


I second the hall effect pickup suggestion.

I had an old Aries that crapped out one day.
I decided that it was a cracked cap.
Changed that, put in a new rotor, and got it to start. But it was even
more gutless than usual.

The symptoms I remember were similar to yours.

I pulled the cap and rotor off to be sure I had tightened all the
screws. When I looked down at the gap for the hall effect sensor, it
was full of rust flakes attracted by the magnet of the sensor.

Being the worlds second cheapest human being, I tried to clean it out
but it was like p*^*#!g up a rope.

I put a new sensor in and it went back to being as crummy a car as it
was before the problem started.

Paul K. Dickman

P.S. A crazy mechanic I knew back in college, took a Colt and
shoehorned a 318 into it with two transmissions. He gave it to his
teenage son. In about a month, his son (with a penchant for neutral
drops) had twisted the chassis so bad the car only sat on three wheels

On 14 Mar 2005 10:53:17 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Eric R Snow says...

I had this occur with a bad rotor. It too was a bitch to find. The
clue was that a timing light would not trigger when the timing was
normal, but would when timing was way advanced. Right now the car
triggers a timing light. But if the light is more sensitive thatn the
one used before maybe it triggers even when there is no spark.

Back to basics: the motor needs spark (at the right time), fuel (in
more or less the correct amount), and compression - if it has those
things it'll run.

Spark: you're aware that the breakdown voltage in air is a lot
less than in the combustion chamber at pressure - and are aware
of the 'will it trigger a timing light' test. And the timing
is to spec on the marks it seems.

So that's probably right out.

Fuel: you say the plugs are wet - but have you tried cranking it
while giving it a shot of carb cleaner into the throttle body? It's
tough to know if 'wet plugs' are correct or not, but most motors
will at least give a shudder and a brief run if fed carb cleaner,
when the fuel is somehow off kilter. It's a quick easy test.

Compression: I take it you've run a compression test on this
motor. Granted the valve timing is correct but are the valves
really closing all the way. Another issue is there some kind
of exhaust obstruction (cat converter, potato up the tailpipe, etc)
that would cause it to idle but not take throttle. Badly blown
head gasket maybe.

When you are done, the trouble is going to fall into one (well,
at *least* one) of those catagories. The problem is figuring
out which of the diagnostics you've been running through is giving
an incorrect 'pass' when there's really something wrong in that
area.

Jim
This is what confuses me. It has spark at the right time. It would not
even pop with WD40. It has proper compressioin. The timing belt has
not slipped. No exhaust obstruction. I'm wondering if maybe there is
enough energy to trigger the timing light but not enough to get good
spark. After I replace the rotor and cap I'll know more. But it's
weird. It ran fine on the way to work. It was parked in front of the
shop all day with the big door open. I live in a rural area and so it
is really unlikely someone snuck up and changed something while I
wasn't looking. At the end of the day it won't start. After the
episode where it barely ran it won't pop at all. Tomorrow I'll finish
the tool to adapt a gauge and check fuel pressure,
ERS

In article , Eric R Snow says...

This is what confuses me. It has spark at the right time. It would not
even pop with WD40.

WD has a pretty low vapor pressure really. My personal favorite
is Berkible carb cleaner. The propellant is propane and it's
chock full of other flammable solvent goodies.

It has proper compressioin. The timing belt has
not slipped. No exhaust obstruction. I'm wondering if maybe there is
enough energy to trigger the timing light but not enough to get good
spark.

This could be. I have a *lot* of experience with sub-adequate
sparks from motorcycle magnetos. The kind that will give a
yellow flicker in daylight but simply won't fire a jug.

The spark has to be a good blue snap that you can see and
hear in the daylight or it's suspect. Most timing lights
however do trigger off the inductive pulse so if it's triggering
then the spark *should* be happening.

After I replace the rotor and cap I'll know more. But it's
weird. It ran fine on the way to work. It was parked in front of the
shop all day with the big door open. I live in a rural area and so it
is really unlikely someone snuck up and changed something while I
wasn't looking. At the end of the day it won't start. After the
episode where it barely ran it won't pop at all. Tomorrow I'll finish
the tool to adapt a gauge and check fuel pressure,

I had to do this with the famous camry-of-death. I purchased another
banjo bolt for where the fuel line exited the filter, drilled, tapped,
and brazed in a tiny clippard hose barb. From there to a 60 psi
gage zip-tied to the side-view mirror.

Do NOT put the gage inside the passenger compartment!

Has this vehicle recently been run out of gas? I mean, down to
the bottom, car quits kind of runout? I've had a case where
the last slug of water got into the paper pleat filter, and
swelled the fibers up, so bad I could not even get any *air*
through it after I lathed it open.

Another fuel issue is that there's a pressure regulator valve
on the end of the fuel rail, that bypasses fuel back to the
tank to maintain a particular pressure based on manifold vacuum.
If that goes bad you can have problems too.

Jim


--
==================================================
please reply to:
JRR(zero) at pkmfgvm4 (dot) vnet (dot) ibm (dot) com
==================================================

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge
Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other
guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when
the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to
the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

Eric R Snow wrote:
I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge
Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other
guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when
the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to
the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.

Sorry for the previous blank.
I had a 85 camaro that had a mass airflow sensor problem. It was
causing the injectors to put out too much fuel. the engine barely ran
at first, then not at all. When I looked at the plugs they were wet but
more importantly, the center electrode insulators were covered with
soot. This means they were shorted ouit with carbon. I didn't have a
sparkplug sandblaster so I burned the carbon off with my oxyacetylene
torch. After a new sensor the car ran well.engineman1
Thanks,
Eric R Snow

Just a pun on the next thread :}
JR
Dweller in the cellar
Ken Sterling wrote:
Chuckle - all 92 Dodge Colts should end up as a yard ornament....
:-)
I know - JR's answer was probably meant for the next thread...
Grinned anyway..
Ken.



Abandon in place. Purge with inert gas and fill using a weak concrete
slurry.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Eric R Snow wrote:

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."




--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

But seriously, folks
In order to start, the engine needs 6 things:
1. adequate compression
2. Properly timed spark
3. adequate spark voltage to fire the plug
4. Clean, properly gapped plugs
4. Proper A/F ratio for air density
5. Adequate A/F volume
All must be within parameters for the engine to start
When starting cold, add the following:
1. Proper A/f enrichment
2. Adequate increased intake volume
Before testing anything-squirt some starting fluid in the intake and
crank. If it fires, the ignition is *probably* OK; fuel system tests are
in order.

For no start cold, test the following in order:
1. Cranking compression. No, you don't need to drag out that dusty
compression tester. Crank the engine and LISTEN. Ever time the engine
comes up on a cylinder's compression stroke, the starter loads. So, you
get "wauh,wagh,wagh,wagh". If you have 1 dead hole, you get"wagh,wagh
weeeeee,wagh". The starter doesn't load on the dead hole. If the timing
belt is broken, you get some combination of "waghs" and "weeeees".
2. Fuel delivery. Look into the TBI unit or crack a fuel line slightly
with a rag for catching the fuel. Crank. No fuel spray- diagnose
3. AFTER you clean up the fuel, test spark. Pull a plug wire and use a
small screwdriver in the boot to jump the spark to ground. Crank. It
should have a nice, fat blue spark that you can pull out to 1/4" or more.
Pull a plug. If it is black with fluffy carbon or oil fouled, or if you
can drive a garbage truck through the gap- replace them
4. Listen to the TBI or injectors while cranking. They should click.

If you have fuel delivery, injector trigger, and good ignition, and the
engine hits on the starting fluid, but won't fire otherwise, the ECM
cold start scheme probably isn't working. think Coolant Temp Sensor or
Idle air regulator, or fuel quality.
JR
Dweller in the cellar


Eric R Snow wrote:

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

I got a good grin out of it though.... I've had a couple of
vehicles over my lifetime that should've ended up as
flower planters in my yard......
Ken.

Just a pun on the next thread :}
JR
Dweller in the cellar
Ken Sterling wrote:
Chuckle - all 92 Dodge Colts should end up as a yard ornament....
:-)
I know - JR's answer was probably meant for the next thread...
Grinned anyway..
Ken.



Abandon in place. Purge with inert gas and fill using a weak concrete
slurry.
JR
Dweller in the cellar

Eric R Snow wrote:

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow


--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."




--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses
--------------------------------------------------------------
Dependence is Vulnerability:
--------------------------------------------------------------
"Open the Pod Bay Doors please, Hal"
"I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.."

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow
Just as an "off chance", did you very recently fill up with some "bad
gas" from someplace?????
Ken.

On 14 Mar 2005 16:52:53 -0800, jim rozen
wrote:

In article , Eric R Snow says...

This is what confuses me. It has spark at the right time. It would not
even pop with WD40.

WD has a pretty low vapor pressure really. My personal favorite
is Berkible carb cleaner. The propellant is propane and it's
chock full of other flammable solvent goodies.

It has proper compressioin. The timing belt has
not slipped. No exhaust obstruction. I'm wondering if maybe there is
enough energy to trigger the timing light but not enough to get good
spark.

This could be. I have a *lot* of experience with sub-adequate
sparks from motorcycle magnetos. The kind that will give a
yellow flicker in daylight but simply won't fire a jug.

The spark has to be a good blue snap that you can see and
hear in the daylight or it's suspect. Most timing lights
however do trigger off the inductive pulse so if it's triggering
then the spark *should* be happening.

After I replace the rotor and cap I'll know more. But it's
weird. It ran fine on the way to work. It was parked in front of the
shop all day with the big door open. I live in a rural area and so it
is really unlikely someone snuck up and changed something while I
wasn't looking. At the end of the day it won't start. After the
episode where it barely ran it won't pop at all. Tomorrow I'll finish
the tool to adapt a gauge and check fuel pressure,

I had to do this with the famous camry-of-death. I purchased another
banjo bolt for where the fuel line exited the filter, drilled, tapped,
and brazed in a tiny clippard hose barb. From there to a 60 psi
gage zip-tied to the side-view mirror.

Do NOT put the gage inside the passenger compartment!

Has this vehicle recently been run out of gas? I mean, down to
the bottom, car quits kind of runout? I've had a case where
the last slug of water got into the paper pleat filter, and
swelled the fibers up, so bad I could not even get any *air*
through it after I lathed it open.

Another fuel issue is that there's a pressure regulator valve
on the end of the fuel rail, that bypasses fuel back to the
tank to maintain a particular pressure based on manifold vacuum.
If that goes bad you can have problems too.

Jim
Jim- Nice blue spark. The car has never been run out of gas. And the
liquid coming out of the gas line is gas-not water. I too have had
trouble with weak sparks. Seems common with old bikes and old
outboards.
Eric

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 11:51:43 GMT, Ken Sterling (Ken Sterling) wrote:

I'm getting desperate. I'm on an island. The car is a '92 Dodge Colt.
The import car fixer says my car isn't "foriegn" enough. The other guy
says it's too "foriegn". Here's what it is doing. Not running. It has
spark, compression, fuel pressure, and the timing is correct. The
manual says that if the car runs while starting and then dies when the
key springs back to the ON position then the fuel pump relay is bad.
But there is no relay where the book says to look and none anywhere I
can see. The dealership doesn't list one. He said to bring in the old
one and they would match it up. The car ran fine to work in the
morning and wouldn't start in the evening. The computer said it was a
bad mass air flow sensor. A new one is 400 bucks so my son went to the
wreckers and picked up a couple for twenty bucks. We put one on and
the car started but ran poorly. I was able to drive it about 1/4 mile
before it died. And while driving it would act like it was leaned out
real bad when I floored it. That was yesterday. Today it won't even
try to start. No matter which mass air flow sensor is connected. The
computer only returns the code now that says all is good. Any help
greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric R Snow
Just as an "off chance", did you very recently fill up with some "bad
gas" from someplace?????
Ken.

True story. A friend and I were riding from Portland, OR back home
near Shelton, WA and decided we best top off. Took exit 99 on I-5 and
topped off at the same pump, him on one side me on the other. We got
just about across the overpass back to the on-ramp when his bike died.

Pushed it back to the station and started checking everything over,
spark, compression, plugs, wires, everything. After a couple hours of
getting nowhere with it, we called a tow truck to bring it the last 45
miles back to my place.

We spent the next three days basically replacing parts and hoping we'd
find the problem. Took it to a shop, they couldn't find anything
wrong either. We'd ruled out fuel since my bike ran perfectly fine.
Guess what it turned out to be? Diesel. Yup, the fuel that came out
of his side of the pump (that was marked as super unleaded) turned out
to be friggin diesel. I wouldn't have believed if I didn't see it
with my own peepers.