Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work.

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Old December 19th 19, 09:29 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Default That home made sports car

It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric

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Old December 19th 19, 11:19 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,682
Default That home made sports car

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


Well, doors do dictate that you must have a little more than a hard top.
Needs to be a full cage of some kind in order to maintain rigidity.
On the car shows they always bitch and whine about how the convertible
version of a high end sports car or super car has to much flex and is
sloppy and harder to control, blah blah blah...





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Old December 19th 19, 11:24 PM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,682
Default That home made sports car

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.

  #4   Report Post  
Old December 20th 19, 01:04 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,830
Default That home made sports car

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:29:20 -0800, wrote:

It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric

Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -
  #5   Report Post  
Old December 20th 19, 01:21 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,830
Default That home made sports car

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:24:01 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.

Drive train of a Jeep has WAY too much mass for a good handling
sports car - - - -

My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front. It was going to weigh in just over 1100 lbs - and with a
"gordini-ized" Renault 12 1300 cc engine ( about 53HP stock, but easy
to get over 85 HPout of it) or a real Gordini 1500 (111 HP stock and
well over 150 easily released) it would have been QUICK!!!!
Our 2100 lb R12 Rallye car with the stock 53 HP engine managed to
place as high as second in the regional navigation rallye series when
it was about 8 years old - The unsprung weight on the 12 was VERY low
and it had an incredible suspension travel.

Another friend built a very lightweight rebodied Fiero with a 3.8
liter supercharged Bonneville engine in it.


  #6   Report Post  
Old December 20th 19, 01:34 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 3,830
Default That home made sports car

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:24:01 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.

Or look into the DF Goblin kit car -- - - Uses a Chevy Cobalt as a
donor - and being a Kit Car you get a VIN. A street Goblin can be
pretty quick. The stage 1 and stage 2 kits run about $6000 combined
and get you a running chassis with no body panels, interior lights,
etc - which you can fabricate to your liking or buy the stage 3 kit in
several formats.
  #7   Report Post  
Old December 20th 19, 01:44 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 177
Default That home made sports car

On 20/12/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front.


Isn't that basically what Lotus did with the early Europa? Except it was
an R16 engine, before they built a suitable engine themselves.

CH
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Old December 20th 19, 02:36 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Posts: 3,830
Default That home made sports car

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:02 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 20/12/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front.


Isn't that basically what Lotus did with the early Europa? Except it was
an R16 engine, before they built a suitable engine themselves.

CH

Basically yes.
  #9   Report Post  
Old December 20th 19, 06:33 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Jul 2006
Posts: 177
Default That home made sports car

On 20/12/19 1:36 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:02 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 20/12/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front.


Isn't that basically what Lotus did with the early Europa? Except it was
an R16 engine, before they built a suitable engine themselves.

CH

Basically yes.


I have long wondered whether it would be possible to turn around a
Subaru engine like that, to make a mid-engined all-wheel drive race car.
The boxer has such a low CoG.

Does anyone know if this could be done with a Subaru diff?

CH
  #10   Report Post  
Old December 20th 19, 07:22 AM posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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First recorded activity by DIYBanter: Nov 2017
Posts: 3,830
Default That home made sports car

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 17:33:33 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 20/12/19 1:36 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:02 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 20/12/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front.

Isn't that basically what Lotus did with the early Europa? Except it was
an R16 engine, before they built a suitable engine themselves.

CH

Basically yes.


I have long wondered whether it would be possible to turn around a
Subaru engine like that, to make a mid-engined all-wheel drive race car.
The boxer has such a low CoG.

Does anyone know if this could be done with a Subaru diff?

CH

easier to get a reverse rotation camshaft


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