It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


Well, doors do dictate that you must have a little more than a hard top.
Needs to be a full cage of some kind in order to maintain rigidity.
On the car shows they always bitch and whine about how the convertible
version of a high end sports car or super car has to much flex and is
sloppy and harder to control, blah blah blah...

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:19:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


Well, doors do dictate that you must have a little more than a hard top.
Needs to be a full cage of some kind in order to maintain rigidity.
On the car shows they always bitch and whine about how the convertible
version of a high end sports car or super car has to much flex and is
sloppy and harder to control, blah blah blah...




If the doors are incorporated into the frame, as part of the frame,
it would help a lot. I have been thinking a lot about how this can be
done.
An ideal space frame should only be loaded in tension or
compression and this means that every joint could be loose, just a pin
through a hole, and the frame would work. A way to envision this would
be to imagine a rectangle made from rods, each of which has a eye at
each end for a pin. Connecting the 4 rods with a pin at each corner
would result in a frame that could easily be deformed by pushing at
any corner. But then add a diagonal connected with the same pins
through the same eyes and the frame becomes stiff. Welds and gussets
add strength but the real strength comes from triangulating the frame.
So maybe there is a practical way for a door to latch with some
sort of tapered pin to give a no slop fit. I'm still thinking about
it.
Eric

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 2:59:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:19:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


Well, doors do dictate that you must have a little more than a hard top.
Needs to be a full cage of some kind in order to maintain rigidity.
On the car shows they always bitch and whine about how the convertible
version of a high end sports car or super car has to much flex and is
sloppy and harder to control, blah blah blah...




If the doors are incorporated into the frame, as part of the frame,
it would help a lot. I have been thinking a lot about how this can be
done.
An ideal space frame should only be loaded in tension or
compression and this means that every joint could be loose, just a pin
through a hole, and the frame would work. A way to envision this would
be to imagine a rectangle made from rods, each of which has a eye at
each end for a pin. Connecting the 4 rods with a pin at each corner
would result in a frame that could easily be deformed by pushing at
any corner. But then add a diagonal connected with the same pins
through the same eyes and the frame becomes stiff. Welds and gussets
add strength but the real strength comes from triangulating the frame.
So maybe there is a practical way for a door to latch with some
sort of tapered pin to give a no slop fit. I'm still thinking about
it.
Eric

If you read the Costin and Phipps book, you know that the closest thing to a true space frame was the Lotus 8. It was a failure. g

Look at the early MB 300 SLR to see what kind of hoops they had to go through to make a true space frame. Or look at the frame on a Maserati Tipo 61, which was known as the "Birdcage."

A Lotus 7, Locost, etc. has no lateral stiffness (no triangulation) above the floor, in the passenger bay. To race them, they cheat like hell with the roll bar triangulation to get some stiffness in there. Otherwise, they're a Flexible Flyer.

--
Ed Huntress

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:26:29 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 2:59:36 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:19:51 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


Well, doors do dictate that you must have a little more than a hard top.
Needs to be a full cage of some kind in order to maintain rigidity.
On the car shows they always bitch and whine about how the convertible
version of a high end sports car or super car has to much flex and is
sloppy and harder to control, blah blah blah...




If the doors are incorporated into the frame, as part of the frame,
it would help a lot. I have been thinking a lot about how this can be
done.
An ideal space frame should only be loaded in tension or
compression and this means that every joint could be loose, just a pin
through a hole, and the frame would work. A way to envision this would
be to imagine a rectangle made from rods, each of which has a eye at
each end for a pin. Connecting the 4 rods with a pin at each corner
would result in a frame that could easily be deformed by pushing at
any corner. But then add a diagonal connected with the same pins
through the same eyes and the frame becomes stiff. Welds and gussets
add strength but the real strength comes from triangulating the frame.
So maybe there is a practical way for a door to latch with some
sort of tapered pin to give a no slop fit. I'm still thinking about
it.
Eric

If you read the Costin and Phipps book, you know that the closest thing to a true space frame was the Lotus 8. It was a failure. g

Look at the early MB 300 SLR to see what kind of hoops they had to go through to make a true space frame. Or look at the frame on a Maserati Tipo 61, which was known as the "Birdcage."

A Lotus 7, Locost, etc. has no lateral stiffness (no triangulation) above the floor, in the passenger bay. To race them, they cheat like hell with the roll bar triangulation to get some stiffness in there. Otherwise, they're a Flexible Flyer.

--
Ed Huntress
If they had doors they would only close ONCE.

A bit like the early Dart Swinger 340. If you dropped the clutch with
the door unlatched, good luck!!! The Duster/demon was moderately
stiffer.

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:24:01 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.
Drive train of a Jeep has WAY too much mass for a good handling
sports car - - - -

My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front. It was going to weigh in just over 1100 lbs - and with a
"gordini-ized" Renault 12 1300 cc engine ( about 53HP stock, but easy
to get over 85 HPout of it) or a real Gordini 1500 (111 HP stock and
well over 150 easily released) it would have been QUICK!!!!
Our 2100 lb R12 Rallye car with the stock 53 HP engine managed to
place as high as second in the regional navigation rallye series when
it was about 8 years old - The unsprung weight on the 12 was VERY low
and it had an incredible suspension travel.

Another friend built a very lightweight rebodied Fiero with a 3.8
liter supercharged Bonneville engine in it.

On 20/12/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front.

Isn't that basically what Lotus did with the early Europa? Except it was
an R16 engine, before they built a suitable engine themselves.

CH

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:02 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 20/12/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front.

Isn't that basically what Lotus did with the early Europa? Except it was
an R16 engine, before they built a suitable engine themselves.

CH
Basically yes.

On 20/12/19 1:36 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:44:02 +1100, Clifford Heath
wrote:

On 20/12/19 12:21 pm, Clare Snyder wrote:
My brother started to build a sports car years ago - He was going to
call it an XR12 ( as in Ex R12 - or used to be an R12)- using the
front of an R12 Renault bolted to the back of a tub with the front a
arm suspension from a vauxhall? - can't remember for sure, on the
front.

Isn't that basically what Lotus did with the early Europa? Except it was
an R16 engine, before they built a suitable engine themselves.

CH
Basically yes.

I have long wondered whether it would be possible to turn around a
Subaru engine like that, to make a mid-engined all-wheel drive race car.
The boxer has such a low CoG.

Does anyone know if this could be done with a Subaru diff?

CH

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:24:01 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.
Or look into the DF Goblin kit car -- - - Uses a Chevy Cobalt as a
donor - and being a Kit Car you get a VIN. A street Goblin can be
pretty quick. The stage 1 and stage 2 kits run about $6000 combined
and get you a running chassis with no body panels, interior lights,
etc - which you can fabricate to your liking or buy the stage 3 kit in
several formats.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:24:01 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric


I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.

"modern jeep" aka Fiat?

--
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

On 25/12/2019 00:22, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:24:01 -0700, Bob La Londe
wrote:

On 12/19/2019 2:29 PM, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric

I thought it might be fun to use a modern Jeep engine and drive train
for a sports car build. Obviously gearing would need to change, but
horsepower is more than adequate. With the right suspension you could
spend an afternoon just passing people on the inside lane on a
roundabout for fun.
"modern jeep" aka Fiat?

I wonder if that comment might explain a mates situation when he had to
replace a diff in his Jeep here in the UK. Apparently no way to know
whether it was a US made diff or a Italian one from the VIN number you
just had to remove it and measure the fasteners. The US one used inch
still but the Italian one used metric, fortunately for him it was the
Italian one as they were £350 each whereas the US made one was £700 with
shipping, customs, and VAT.



--
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"David Billington" wrote in message
...
...
I wonder if that comment might explain a mates situation when he had
to replace a diff in his Jeep here in the UK. Apparently no way to
know whether it was a US made diff or a Italian one from the VIN
number you just had to remove it and measure the fasteners. The US
one used inch still but the Italian one used metric, fortunately for
him it was the Italian one as they were £350 each whereas the US
made one was £700 with shipping, customs, and VAT.

Still inch, even after Daimler owned them?

My 1991 Ford, made in Kentucky, is all metric. I had to buy 18mm
wrenches and sockets to work on it because they aren't included in
sets.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:29:20 -0800, wrote:

It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric
Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 20:04:07 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:29:20 -0800, wrote:

It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric
Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -
Last time I checked it is not that difficult to get a VIN in
Washington State on a home built car. There are specialty insurance
companies that offer insurance for quite reasonable rates on home
built cars.
The State Patrol requires reciepts of EVERYTHING bought to make the
car, whether scratch built, modified, or kit. This is to help prevent
thefts. Even a trailer has to meet these conditions.
I do plan to start with a donor car as this is easier in many ways.
Eric

On 20/12/2019 16:26, wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 20:04:07 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:29:20 -0800, wrote:

It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric
Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -
Last time I checked it is not that difficult to get a VIN in
Washington State on a home built car. There are specialty insurance
companies that offer insurance for quite reasonable rates on home
built cars.
The State Patrol requires reciepts of EVERYTHING bought to make the
car, whether scratch built, modified, or kit. This is to help prevent
thefts. Even a trailer has to meet these conditions.
I do plan to start with a donor car as this is easier in many ways.
Eric

A mate has a Caterham 7 and the metal working and forming is kept pretty
simple if you go with that design, most of the panels are flat or simple
curves. At least one episode of IIRC 'Wheeler Dealers' has a bit on the
Caterham and how they form some details such as the rolled edge around
the rear and that is done in situ around the frame. May be available on
Youtube , I haven't looked. His has the larger wings which generate lift
at higher speeds, the Jaguar SS100 sports car suffered the same and had
similar wings, he hasn't swapped to the more tyre hugging cycle wings
yet but he has mentioned he may but he generally doesn't drive it that
far or fast.

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:26:48 -0800, wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 20:04:07 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:29:20 -0800, wrote:

It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric
Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -
Last time I checked it is not that difficult to get a VIN in
Washington State on a home built car. There are specialty insurance
companies that offer insurance for quite reasonable rates on home
built cars.
The State Patrol requires reciepts of EVERYTHING bought to make the
car, whether scratch built, modified, or kit. This is to help prevent
thefts. Even a trailer has to meet these conditions.
I do plan to start with a donor car as this is easier in many ways.
Eric
Get the "locost" builder's manual. It qualifies as a "kit built" even
if you modify the heck out of it. But only if you own an original of
the book - the "license" to build, if you want. Registers as a
"locost"

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 8:04:10 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 13:29:20 -0800, wrote:

It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric
Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -

My Allstate agent told me they would insure a Locost. That was maybe 15 years ago. NJ will allow a home-built car, and issue some kind of serial number for it, like a VIN.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:34:24 +0000, Charlie+ wrote:


Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -

Id agree with this (kit+) approach, I had two Lotus back in the day, (11
and Elite) and I also built up a Kit car (Ginetta G15) in a week-end!
I would not build from scratch, you may never finish to enjoy it! The 11
had a very thin Al body all butt gas welded and hand rolled, I would
never do enough to make a job that perfect even though welding Al with
modern welders is a lot easier, mastering the English wheel is quite
something else! C+
I'm pretty good at raising metal but all I've really worked with is
aluminum, copper, German silver, and silver. A body is big and will
take lots more work, building bucks and the like, but I have a feel
for metal and am good at working it.
I may not go the English Wheel route. I may just stick to hammer
forming and stretchers and shrinkers.
Eric

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:33:19 -0800, wrote:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:34:24 +0000, Charlie+ wrote:


Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -

Id agree with this (kit+) approach, I had two Lotus back in the day, (11
and Elite) and I also built up a Kit car (Ginetta G15) in a week-end!
I would not build from scratch, you may never finish to enjoy it! The 11
had a very thin Al body all butt gas welded and hand rolled, I would
never do enough to make a job that perfect even though welding Al with
modern welders is a lot easier, mastering the English wheel is quite
something else! C+
I'm pretty good at raising metal but all I've really worked with is
aluminum, copper, German silver, and silver. A body is big and will
take lots more work, building bucks and the like, but I have a feel
for metal and am good at working it.
I may not go the English Wheel route. I may just stick to hammer
forming and stretchers and shrinkers.
Eric
"Italian" coachwork, not "British" in other words. A wooden stick
and a leather bag full of sand, a shelf full of hammers and dollies,
and a big "swear jar". There will always be enough money in the jar to
buy the next part you need !!!!!

On Friday, December 20, 2019 at 1:00:34 PM UTC-5, Clare wrote:
On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:33:19 -0800, wrote:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:34:24 +0000, Charlie+ wrote:


Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -

Id agree with this (kit+) approach, I had two Lotus back in the day, (11
and Elite) and I also built up a Kit car (Ginetta G15) in a week-end!
I would not build from scratch, you may never finish to enjoy it! The 11
had a very thin Al body all butt gas welded and hand rolled, I would
never do enough to make a job that perfect even though welding Al with
modern welders is a lot easier, mastering the English wheel is quite
something else! C+
I'm pretty good at raising metal but all I've really worked with is
aluminum, copper, German silver, and silver. A body is big and will
take lots more work, building bucks and the like, but I have a feel
for metal and am good at working it.
I may not go the English Wheel route. I may just stick to hammer
forming and stretchers and shrinkers.
Eric
"Italian" coachwork, not "British" in other words. A wooden stick
and a leather bag full of sand, a shelf full of hammers and dollies,
and a big "swear jar". There will always be enough money in the jar to
buy the next part you need !!!!!

Like Ferraris. I've been told by a Ferrari owner, at a concours, that his 275 GTB probably had 10 pounds of Bondo in it -- right from the factory. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:00:31 -0500, Clare Snyder
wrote:
"Italian" coachwork, not "British" in other words. A wooden stick
and a leather bag full of sand, a shelf full of hammers and dollies,
and a big "swear jar". There will always be enough money in the jar to
buy the next part you need !!!!!

A 55gal swear drum would suit me.

--
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:33:19 -0800, wrote:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:34:24 +0000, Charlie+ wrote:


Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -

Id agree with this (kit+) approach, I had two Lotus back in the day, (11
and Elite) and I also built up a Kit car (Ginetta G15) in a week-end!
I would not build from scratch, you may never finish to enjoy it! The 11
had a very thin Al body all butt gas welded and hand rolled, I would
never do enough to make a job that perfect even though welding Al with
modern welders is a lot easier, mastering the English wheel is quite
something else! C+
I'm pretty good at raising metal but all I've really worked with is
aluminum, copper, German silver, and silver. A body is big and will
take lots more work, building bucks and the like, but I have a feel
for metal and am good at working it.
I may not go the English Wheel route. I may just stick to hammer
forming and stretchers and shrinkers.

Congrats on your pending retirement, Eric.

If not a wheel, maybe enjoy its noisier cousin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4hwWpthyoE

--
There is nothing more frightening than ignorance in action.

--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

On Tue, 24 Dec 2019 16:34:15 -0800, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:33:19 -0800, wrote:

On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:34:24 +0000, Charlie+ wrote:


Don't know where you are, but you will want to check into what is
involved in getting a VIN number and insurance. Here in Ontario
getting a VIN isn't TOO onerous, but geting insurance is pretty close
to impossible for a "home-built" car. A "kit car" is a lot easier on
both counts. Starting with a "donor car" and "modifying " it is a lot
easier. I'd consider "modifying" an MX5 Miata. It's got a sweet
powerplant and decent suspension. It's designed with doors and you can
run open or with a roof. Parts to convert to coil-over suspension are
readily available. Performance parts are readily available. Replace
everything except the engine, running gear, and cowl and you still
have an MX5 with a VIN. Take off the sheet metal, build a tube frame
to give it strength with less weight and skin it in aluminum or carbon
fiber (or whatever), install cycle fenders, even narrow the cowl if
you want. The insurance company will ask if it has been "modified for
speed" and you will likely have to answer to the affirmative, which
WILL in all likelihood raise your rates a bit. Keep enough Mazda parts
that you can still (somewhat) legitimately call it a Miata - - - -

Id agree with this (kit+) approach, I had two Lotus back in the day, (11
and Elite) and I also built up a Kit car (Ginetta G15) in a week-end!
I would not build from scratch, you may never finish to enjoy it! The 11
had a very thin Al body all butt gas welded and hand rolled, I would
never do enough to make a job that perfect even though welding Al with
modern welders is a lot easier, mastering the English wheel is quite
something else! C+
I'm pretty good at raising metal but all I've really worked with is
aluminum, copper, German silver, and silver. A body is big and will
take lots more work, building bucks and the like, but I have a feel
for metal and am good at working it.
I may not go the English Wheel route. I may just stick to hammer
forming and stretchers and shrinkers.

Congrats on your pending retirement, Eric.

If not a wheel, maybe enjoy its noisier cousin?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4hwWpthyoE


AKA a Plannishing hammer

On Thursday, December 19, 2019 at 4:29:23 PM UTC-5, wrote:
It looks like I'll be retiring in 2 years or less. So then I'll
have time to make my sports car. WOOHOO!
To that end I am reading, for at least the 5th time, Racing &
Sports Car Chassis Design by Michael Costin and David Phipps. And have
been browsing the web for folks who have done similar.
Lotsa variations on the Lotus 7 I see. I like the Lotus 7 from the
front and the side but the squared off back end bugs me. The open
cockpit looks great but living just a bit north of Seattle makes me
think I need a hard top.
Reading about the first iteration of the Lotus 7 I find that it had
considerable lift in the front starting about 70 miles per hour. I
will only ever be driving it that fast on straight roads but any lift
could seriously affect the steering in a negative way. I guess this
problem has been addressed in later models and in the Locost and
Caterham versions.
But it looks like all the newer versions have fenders that have a
channel cross section, not a curved cross section like a motorcycle
fender. To me they look like ****. The original Lotus had the curved
cross section rear fenders and front fenders which were basically just
curved sheet metal, with no sides. The front fenders may not be legal
for street use.
Anybody familiar with the original Laguna Seca race track logo? I
really like that body style and I could place a body like that on a
proven Lotus type frame. Still, it's an open cockpit car and I really
think I need a roof. Doors too.
I know doors complicate things as far as torsional rigidity go, but
that can be worked around. A high sill is a problem for me because I
have vertigo now and have had it for about 35 years. Standing on one
leg to climb into or out of car could be problematical. At least I no
longer fall out of chairs.
I have decided that I want from 120 to 140 HP. That will be plenty
to make a really light car zippy. Especially if the engine is already
zippy. I like the look of carbureted engines and really like SU carbs.
But I don't know if I want the hassle of dealing with carbs. BUT WTF,
my tractors have carbs and they all start and run pretty reliably as
long as I use ethanol free fuel, even after sitting for months during
the winter. I also like multiple carbs with velocity stacks. 4
cylinders, 4 carbs. Even if nobody can see them under the hood I'll
know they are there.
I guess I'll need to take a class to learn how to shape sheet metal
for the body. There are at least two places on the west coast that
offer classes. Probably be a bunch of young guys with sharp minds in
the classes too that can teach me some stuff.
I have the machine shop but not the sheet metal shop. So I will
either need to build another shop or rent one for a while. I have the
machining and welding skills but my sheet metal working skill set is
pretty lacking so the class will be fun.
If anybody wants to give me any input I'll gladly accept it. I have
two years to figure out just what the car will look like, what the
power train will be, and what the frame should be like. Or at least an
outline of it all. I'm excited.
Cheers,
Eric

Hi Eric. It sounds like you've been bitten by a bug that never stops until it's eaten you up. g I've been there; I have an original edition of Costin and Phipps book, and a contemporary that I bought in 1961 -- _Sports Car Bodywork_ by Locke. Over the years I've built a near-bookshelf of bodywork, chassis, and engine sports-car and race car books.

I've helped out on two such projects by others, neither one completed. I'll suggest that it's 5 to 10 times as much work as most people, even experienced metalworking people, think.

You probably don't want to hear this, but my suggestion is to buy a good kit car that you like and build that. There will be plenty of work to do, for a year or more, typically. If you're really lucky, you'll find one that someone half-completed before they gave up. Those toys have left broken marriages behind. It's sTILL much more work than most people realize.

I've gone to great lengths to try things -- hammering aluminum, welding 4130 tube, and so on. When I did some sports car racing in the late '60s and early '70s, I rebuilt two Alfa Romeo engines, and tuned Jaguars, Triumphs, hot English Fords, and Bristols (AC Bristol cars) for my sporty-car friends. I had an excellent English mechanic for a friend and teacher. Out of college I first worked for Ranger Yachts, as a fiberglass layup man. It's MUCH easier to learn than hammering aluminum.

I raced an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spyder, an MG Midget 1275, and I drove or owned many others. My old college roommate still has one of the 50 Lotus 7 Mk IVs that were brought into the US in 1971. I've driven it; even though it's the most advanced chassis in the Lotus 7 series, it's still twitchy. My MG was more stable. Suspension and handling are exceedingly tricky on a scratch-built car. That's why many of the English club-racer specials took the suspension parts wholesale from some proven car. The Triumph Herald was a favorite.

Carbs are manageable. There is a good book on tuning SU's that I used to use. I've tuned Weber DCOEs for hopped-up engines, and sliding-throat Zeniths.. Just read what the experts say. SU's, particularly, have so many combinations of main jets and needles that you'll be completely lost, if your engine has even the slightest modifications, without a good book. There aren't many "experts" left to call upon. IIRC, Clare here on the NG should be able to steer you to info sources.

Good luck. I'd love to see some beginner tackle a start-to-finish sports car and succeed. Something really simple, like Champion's Locost, gives the best chance of pulling it off. Beyond that, it becomes distressingly complicated and frustrating.

--
Ed Huntress

SNIP

Hi Eric. It sounds like you've been bitten by a bug that never stops until it's eaten you up. g I've been there; I have an original edition of Costin and Phipps book, and a contemporary that I bought in 1961 -- _Sports Car Bodywork_ by Locke. Over the years I've built a near-bookshelf of bodywork, chassis, and engine sports-car and race car books.

I've helped out on two such projects by others, neither one completed. I'll suggest that it's 5 to 10 times as much work as most people, even experienced metalworking people, think.

You probably don't want to hear this, but my suggestion is to buy a good kit car that you like and build that. There will be plenty of work to do, for a year or more, typically. If you're really lucky, you'll find one that someone half-completed before they gave up. Those toys have left broken marriages behind. It's sTILL much more work than most people realize.

I've gone to great lengths to try things -- hammering aluminum, welding 4130 tube, and so on. When I did some sports car racing in the late '60s and early '70s, I rebuilt two Alfa Romeo engines, and tuned Jaguars, Triumphs, hot English Fords, and Bristols (AC Bristol cars) for my sporty-car friends. I had an excellent English mechanic for a friend and teacher. Out of college I first worked for Ranger Yachts, as a fiberglass layup man. It's MUCH easier to learn than hammering aluminum.

I raced an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spyder, an MG Midget 1275, and I drove or owned many others. My old college roommate still has one of the 50 Lotus 7 Mk IVs that were brought into the US in 1971. I've driven it; even though it's the most advanced chassis in the Lotus 7 series, it's still twitchy. My MG was more stable. Suspension and handling are exceedingly tricky on a scratch-built car. That's why many of the English club-racer specials took the suspension parts wholesale from some proven car. The Triumph Herald was a favorite.

Carbs are manageable. There is a good book on tuning SU's that I used to use. I've tuned Weber DCOEs for hopped-up engines, and sliding-throat Zeniths. Just read what the experts say. SU's, particularly, have so many combinations of main jets and needles that you'll be completely lost, if your engine has even the slightest modifications, without a good book. There aren't many "experts" left to call upon. IIRC, Clare here on the NG should be able to steer you to info sources.

Good luck. I'd love to see some beginner tackle a start-to-finish sports car and succeed. Something really simple, like Champion's Locost, gives the best chance of pulling it off. Beyond that, it becomes distressingly complicated and frustrating.
Yeh Ed, I have been thinking about buying the frame. I can weld it, I
do have the proper equipment, experience, and skill. But it may be
easier to register the thing if I use an already made frame. I can
always mod the fram if need be. But I really want to make the body and
bolt all the stuff on.
Eric

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 12:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
SNIP

Hi Eric. It sounds like you've been bitten by a bug that never stops until it's eaten you up. g I've been there; I have an original edition of Costin and Phipps book, and a contemporary that I bought in 1961 -- _Sports Car Bodywork_ by Locke. Over the years I've built a near-bookshelf of bodywork, chassis, and engine sports-car and race car books.

I've helped out on two such projects by others, neither one completed. I'll suggest that it's 5 to 10 times as much work as most people, even experienced metalworking people, think.

You probably don't want to hear this, but my suggestion is to buy a good kit car that you like and build that. There will be plenty of work to do, for a year or more, typically. If you're really lucky, you'll find one that someone half-completed before they gave up. Those toys have left broken marriages behind. It's sTILL much more work than most people realize.

I've gone to great lengths to try things -- hammering aluminum, welding 4130 tube, and so on. When I did some sports car racing in the late '60s and early '70s, I rebuilt two Alfa Romeo engines, and tuned Jaguars, Triumphs, hot English Fords, and Bristols (AC Bristol cars) for my sporty-car friends. I had an excellent English mechanic for a friend and teacher. Out of college I first worked for Ranger Yachts, as a fiberglass layup man. It's MUCH easier to learn than hammering aluminum.

I raced an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spyder, an MG Midget 1275, and I drove or owned many others. My old college roommate still has one of the 50 Lotus 7 Mk IVs that were brought into the US in 1971. I've driven it; even though it's the most advanced chassis in the Lotus 7 series, it's still twitchy. My MG was more stable. Suspension and handling are exceedingly tricky on a scratch-built car. That's why many of the English club-racer specials took the suspension parts wholesale from some proven car. The Triumph Herald was a favorite.

Carbs are manageable. There is a good book on tuning SU's that I used to use. I've tuned Weber DCOEs for hopped-up engines, and sliding-throat Zeniths. Just read what the experts say. SU's, particularly, have so many combinations of main jets and needles that you'll be completely lost, if your engine has even the slightest modifications, without a good book. There aren't many "experts" left to call upon. IIRC, Clare here on the NG should be able to steer you to info sources.

Good luck. I'd love to see some beginner tackle a start-to-finish sports car and succeed. Something really simple, like Champion's Locost, gives the best chance of pulling it off. Beyond that, it becomes distressingly complicated and frustrating.
Yeh Ed, I have been thinking about buying the frame. I can weld it, I
do have the proper equipment, experience, and skill. But it may be
easier to register the thing if I use an already made frame. I can
always mod the fram if need be. But I really want to make the body and
bolt all the stuff on.
Eric

Once again, Eric, I wish you success. I'd love to see the completed project.. Are you determined to make the body from aluminum? If so, allow yourself plenty of time to learn. One book I mentioned, _Sports Car Bodywork_, talks through making a body with just a leather sandbag and hammers. I tried it once, just to see what it was like, using a hollowed log and some 3003 aluminum. Banging out the hollows wasn't hard, but I would have needed more practice or some instruction to shrink out the edges.

I think that time and patience go a long way on these projects, until you get good at it.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote in message
...
....Banging out the hollows wasn't hard, but I would have needed more
practice or some instruction to shrink out the edges....
Ed Huntress

-------------------------------------

How did you try to shrink the metal?

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 6:32:54 PM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message
...
...Banging out the hollows wasn't hard, but I would have needed more
practice or some instruction to shrink out the edges....
Ed Huntress

-------------------------------------

How did you try to shrink the metal?

I used a home-made leather-faced slapper and a dolly. It was the same dolly I used over 50 years ago on steel.

I didn't anneal, but the aluminum was already pretty soft. I have used the old trick with plain acetylene to leave a layer of soot, and then burning it off with the torch. That anneals aluminum very well, but I wasn't getting the buckles out with the method I tried. It's supposed to work.

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:29:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 12:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
SNIP

Hi Eric. It sounds like you've been bitten by a bug that never stops until it's eaten you up. g I've been there; I have an original edition of Costin and Phipps book, and a contemporary that I bought in 1961 -- _Sports Car Bodywork_ by Locke. Over the years I've built a near-bookshelf of bodywork, chassis, and engine sports-car and race car books.

I've helped out on two such projects by others, neither one completed. I'll suggest that it's 5 to 10 times as much work as most people, even experienced metalworking people, think.

You probably don't want to hear this, but my suggestion is to buy a good kit car that you like and build that. There will be plenty of work to do, for a year or more, typically. If you're really lucky, you'll find one that someone half-completed before they gave up. Those toys have left broken marriages behind. It's sTILL much more work than most people realize.

I've gone to great lengths to try things -- hammering aluminum, welding 4130 tube, and so on. When I did some sports car racing in the late '60s and early '70s, I rebuilt two Alfa Romeo engines, and tuned Jaguars, Triumphs, hot English Fords, and Bristols (AC Bristol cars) for my sporty-car friends. I had an excellent English mechanic for a friend and teacher. Out of college I first worked for Ranger Yachts, as a fiberglass layup man. It's MUCH easier to learn than hammering aluminum.

I raced an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spyder, an MG Midget 1275, and I drove or owned many others. My old college roommate still has one of the 50 Lotus 7 Mk IVs that were brought into the US in 1971. I've driven it; even though it's the most advanced chassis in the Lotus 7 series, it's still twitchy. My MG was more stable. Suspension and handling are exceedingly tricky on a scratch-built car. That's why many of the English club-racer specials took the suspension parts wholesale from some proven car. The Triumph Herald was a favorite.

Carbs are manageable. There is a good book on tuning SU's that I used to use. I've tuned Weber DCOEs for hopped-up engines, and sliding-throat Zeniths. Just read what the experts say. SU's, particularly, have so many combinations of main jets and needles that you'll be completely lost, if your engine has even the slightest modifications, without a good book. There aren't many "experts" left to call upon. IIRC, Clare here on the NG should be able to steer you to info sources.

Good luck. I'd love to see some beginner tackle a start-to-finish sports car and succeed. Something really simple, like Champion's Locost, gives the best chance of pulling it off. Beyond that, it becomes distressingly complicated and frustrating.
Yeh Ed, I have been thinking about buying the frame. I can weld it, I
do have the proper equipment, experience, and skill. But it may be
easier to register the thing if I use an already made frame. I can
always mod the fram if need be. But I really want to make the body and
bolt all the stuff on.
Eric

Once again, Eric, I wish you success. I'd love to see the completed project. Are you determined to make the body from aluminum? If so, allow yourself plenty of time to learn. One book I mentioned, _Sports Car Bodywork_, talks through making a body with just a leather sandbag and hammers. I tried it once, just to see what it was like, using a hollowed log and some 3003 aluminum. Banging out the hollows wasn't hard, but I would have needed more practice or some instruction to shrink out the edges.

I think that time and patience go a long way on these projects, until you get good at it.
I'm good at hammer forming copper and silver and have also done
aluminum. Shrinking soft metals isn't that hard, plus you can buy
shrinker/stretchers that really make it easy to shrink.
EWric

On 27/12/2019 18:05, wrote:
On Mon, 23 Dec 2019 11:29:36 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 12:06:33 PM UTC-5, wrote:
SNIP
Hi Eric. It sounds like you've been bitten by a bug that never stops until it's eaten you up. g I've been there; I have an original edition of Costin and Phipps book, and a contemporary that I bought in 1961 -- _Sports Car Bodywork_ by Locke. Over the years I've built a near-bookshelf of bodywork, chassis, and engine sports-car and race car books.

I've helped out on two such projects by others, neither one completed. I'll suggest that it's 5 to 10 times as much work as most people, even experienced metalworking people, think.

You probably don't want to hear this, but my suggestion is to buy a good kit car that you like and build that. There will be plenty of work to do, for a year or more, typically. If you're really lucky, you'll find one that someone half-completed before they gave up. Those toys have left broken marriages behind. It's sTILL much more work than most people realize.

I've gone to great lengths to try things -- hammering aluminum, welding 4130 tube, and so on. When I did some sports car racing in the late '60s and early '70s, I rebuilt two Alfa Romeo engines, and tuned Jaguars, Triumphs, hot English Fords, and Bristols (AC Bristol cars) for my sporty-car friends. I had an excellent English mechanic for a friend and teacher. Out of college I first worked for Ranger Yachts, as a fiberglass layup man. It's MUCH easier to learn than hammering aluminum.

I raced an Alfa Romeo Giulietta Spyder, an MG Midget 1275, and I drove or owned many others. My old college roommate still has one of the 50 Lotus 7 Mk IVs that were brought into the US in 1971. I've driven it; even though it's the most advanced chassis in the Lotus 7 series, it's still twitchy. My MG was more stable. Suspension and handling are exceedingly tricky on a scratch-built car. That's why many of the English club-racer specials took the suspension parts wholesale from some proven car. The Triumph Herald was a favorite.

Carbs are manageable. There is a good book on tuning SU's that I used to use. I've tuned Weber DCOEs for hopped-up engines, and sliding-throat Zeniths. Just read what the experts say. SU's, particularly, have so many combinations of main jets and needles that you'll be completely lost, if your engine has even the slightest modifications, without a good book. There aren't many "experts" left to call upon. IIRC, Clare here on the NG should be able to steer you to info sources.

Good luck. I'd love to see some beginner tackle a start-to-finish sports car and succeed. Something really simple, like Champion's Locost, gives the best chance of pulling it off. Beyond that, it becomes distressingly complicated and frustrating.
Yeh Ed, I have been thinking about buying the frame. I can weld it, I
do have the proper equipment, experience, and skill. But it may be
easier to register the thing if I use an already made frame. I can
always mod the fram if need be. But I really want to make the body and
bolt all the stuff on.
Eric
Once again, Eric, I wish you success. I'd love to see the completed project. Are you determined to make the body from aluminum? If so, allow yourself plenty of time to learn. One book I mentioned, _Sports Car Bodywork_, talks through making a body with just a leather sandbag and hammers. I tried it once, just to see what it was like, using a hollowed log and some 3003 aluminum. Banging out the hollows wasn't hard, but I would have needed more practice or some instruction to shrink out the edges.

I think that time and patience go a long way on these projects, until you get good at it.
I'm good at hammer forming copper and silver and have also done
aluminum. Shrinking soft metals isn't that hard, plus you can buy
shrinker/stretchers that really make it easy to shrink.
EWric

I worked at a racing company in the early 1990s and they had the low end
US made shrinker/stretchers and I was told they were acceptable on steel
but they found the surface damage to soft metal such as aluminium too
great so avoided their use. I mentioned to the workshop foreman that I
had a UK made shrinking jaw set and brought them in and we did a back to
back test and the results were like chalk and cheese, both worked but
the surface damage was far less with my set, I expect they're equivalent
to the high end US made ones mentioned in Fournier's book or the Swiss
Eckold ones.Â* There's some information in the dropbox at
http://www.mwdropbox.com/dropbox/ the dfsshrink files to show the jaw
construction and resulting surface. Would be interesting to know how
much difference the alternate grit jaws shown at TinManTech make for the
results with the low end shrinkers.