Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions. Because of the way my house is plumbed it takes a long
time for the water to get hot at a few fixtures. I could put little
water heaters at these fixtures but that would require running power
to the fixtures. Though this could be done it wouldn't be easy. I
looked at two types of recirculating systems and both are lacking. One
relys on a thermostatic valve opening up between the hot and cold
pipes when the hot side cools enough. For the system to work a pump
must be operating , to keep the hot side at a higher pressure. The
other sustem I looked at requires running wires from each fixture. The
wires power a solenoid valve and provide a signal to turn on a pump.
But that would require running wire which as already stated isn't that
easy. I'm wondering if maybe a check valve and a differential switch
could be used to turn on the pump when the thermostatic valve opens.
The valve doesn't require power and each fixture can have its own
valve. Or just one valve can be installed at the furthest fixture.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 09:06:00 -0700, wrote:

Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions. Because of the way my house is plumbed it takes a long
time for the water to get hot at a few fixtures. I could put little
water heaters at these fixtures but that would require running power
to the fixtures. Though this could be done it wouldn't be easy. I
looked at two types of recirculating systems and both are lacking. One
relys on a thermostatic valve opening up between the hot and cold
pipes when the hot side cools enough. For the system to work a pump
must be operating , to keep the hot side at a higher pressure. The
other sustem I looked at requires running wires from each fixture. The
wires power a solenoid valve and provide a signal to turn on a pump.
But that would require running wire which as already stated isn't that
easy. I'm wondering if maybe a check valve and a differential switch
could be used to turn on the pump when the thermostatic valve opens.
The valve doesn't require power and each fixture can have its own
valve. Or just one valve can be installed at the furthest fixture.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

I vote for the spot heaters. If you do recirculation, the pipes better
be short and/or well insulated. Otherwise they'll become radiators,
increasing your water heating costs and your air conditioning costs if
applicable. How much, depends. But a friend whose pipes were buried in
his concrete slab managed to increase his bills by $100 a month when
he added recirculation.

On 6/5/2017 11:11 AM, Neighborhood number 3 wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jun 2017 09:06:00 -0700, wrote:

Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions. Because of the way my house is plumbed it takes a long
time for the water to get hot at a few fixtures. I could put little
water heaters at these fixtures but that would require running power
to the fixtures. Though this could be done it wouldn't be easy. I
looked at two types of recirculating systems and both are lacking. One
relys on a thermostatic valve opening up between the hot and cold
pipes when the hot side cools enough. For the system to work a pump
must be operating , to keep the hot side at a higher pressure. The
other sustem I looked at requires running wires from each fixture. The
wires power a solenoid valve and provide a signal to turn on a pump.
But that would require running wire which as already stated isn't that
easy. I'm wondering if maybe a check valve and a differential switch
could be used to turn on the pump when the thermostatic valve opens.
The valve doesn't require power and each fixture can have its own
valve. Or just one valve can be installed at the furthest fixture.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

I vote for the spot heaters. If you do recirculation, the pipes better
be short and/or well insulated. Otherwise they'll become radiators,
increasing your water heating costs and your air conditioning costs if
applicable. How much, depends. But a friend whose pipes were buried in
his concrete slab managed to increase his bills by $100 a month when
he added recirculation.

Recirc means reheat all of the time. Return of cool water to keep hot
at a tap costs money. I know of a couple that disabled theirs due to
cost. They could afford it but it was electric (pump) and gas or
electric to heat.

It is best to have a demand unit that boosts the temp to the need of the
area then turns off. So the pool area has hot water but doesn't cost
in the off seasons.

Martin

wrote in message
...
Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions. Because of the way my house is plumbed it takes a long
time for the water to get hot at a few fixtures. I could put little
water heaters at these fixtures but that would require running power
to the fixtures. Though this could be done it wouldn't be easy. I
looked at two types of recirculating systems and both are lacking.
One
relys on a thermostatic valve opening up between the hot and cold
pipes when the hot side cools enough. For the system to work a pump
must be operating , to keep the hot side at a higher pressure. The
other sustem I looked at requires running wires from each fixture.
The
wires power a solenoid valve and provide a signal to turn on a pump.
But that would require running wire which as already stated isn't
that
easy. I'm wondering if maybe a check valve and a differential switch
could be used to turn on the pump when the thermostatic valve opens.
The valve doesn't require power and each fixture can have its own
valve. Or just one valve can be installed at the furthest fixture.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

In my laundry room the flow though the washing machine shutoff valves
is much greater than the flow through the faucets on the bathroom sink
the previous owner installed. If one of your distant fixtures is in a
utility room maybe you could install larger faucets to rapidly purge
the pipe.

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 12:44:55 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions. Because of the way my house is plumbed it takes a long
time for the water to get hot at a few fixtures. I could put little
water heaters at these fixtures but that would require running power
to the fixtures. Though this could be done it wouldn't be easy. I
looked at two types of recirculating systems and both are lacking.
One
relys on a thermostatic valve opening up between the hot and cold
pipes when the hot side cools enough. For the system to work a pump
must be operating , to keep the hot side at a higher pressure. The
other sustem I looked at requires running wires from each fixture.
The
wires power a solenoid valve and provide a signal to turn on a pump.
But that would require running wire which as already stated isn't
that
easy. I'm wondering if maybe a check valve and a differential switch
could be used to turn on the pump when the thermostatic valve opens.
The valve doesn't require power and each fixture can have its own
valve. Or just one valve can be installed at the furthest fixture.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

In my laundry room the flow though the washing machine shutoff valves
is much greater than the flow through the faucets on the bathroom sink
the previous owner installed. If one of your distant fixtures is in a
utility room maybe you could install larger faucets to rapidly purge
the pipe.

One way or the other, Eric, you'll either have to run a wire or
additional piping. Neither is cheap, quick, or fun.

Hmm, thinking about it, you could put a 1/2" dump valve in the end of
the feed to the hot water supply line to the sink and dump it in the
drain pipe -after- the P-trap. That would expedite the travel of the
water to the supply pipe at the sink, but it wouldn't require major
plumbing changes in the wall/under the house. It would be a real PITA
to plumb, but it might help.

Alternatively, run smaller pipe or higher pressure and insulate well.
Something I'll do in the future, if/when any major plumbing problems
come up, is to switch to PEX and insulate it all the way from the pump
house to each tap. Instead of spending $300 to do a small job, I'll
break out the cob-webby old credit card and do the entire job once and
forever. Many of you know how nasty 'old' pipe is to work with. You
attempt to unthread a leaky pipe and it breaks the next pipe on the
other side of the fitting. And they're all constricted internally from
age, anyway.

The galv pipe was installed in the early '60s. Nobody could have been
more surprised than me when the water main to the house froze solid 5
or 6 years ago, -without- bursting or leaking. I put a Patton milk-
house heater under the house for 5 hours and the toilet started
filling several hours later (after bringing in the heater) with no
ill effects. I was thrilled. http://tinyurl.com/ybo65vqo

To get hot water to my bathroom faucet, I run the hot in the tub
first, then open the faucet. Most often, since it takes a minute to
get hot, I just avoid using the bathroom sink hot faucet. It takes 20
seconds in the kitchen.

I've thought about the continuous hot water and can imagine how much
it costs (both materially and electrically) annually for that little
convenience. You either waste water (run 'til hot) or electricity
(looped hot water.) Plumbed continuous is probably considerably
cheaper than a POU water heater for each faucet in a home. Solar
pumped systems would probably be the cheapest when considering
lifetime costs.

--
Believe nothing.
No matter where you read it,
Or who said it,
Even if I have said it,
Unless it agrees with your own reason
And your own common sense.
-- Buddha

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 12:00:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

I have thought about this, but have never gotten around to doing anything.

My thought is to have a switch in each upstairs bathroom that would run the recirculate pump They would be wire the same as a three way switch so the pump could be turned on and off from either bathroom.

Thus would not be a automatic set up. If one was about to use hot water , one would turn on the pump for a minute or so before using the hot water.

Dan

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:27:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 12:00:23 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

I have thought about this, but have never gotten around to doing anything.

My thought is to have a switch in each upstairs bathroom that would run the recirculate pump They would be wire the same as a three way switch so the pump could be turned on and off from either bathroom.

Thus would not be a automatic set up. If one was about to use hot water , one would turn on the pump for a minute or so before using the hot water.

Dan
Your solution would reqiure running wires, which I don't want to do.
Eric

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:27:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Monday, June 5, 2017 at 12:00:23 PM UTC-4,
wrote:
Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to
post
my questions.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

I have thought about this, but have never gotten around to doing
anything.

My thought is to have a switch in each upstairs bathroom that would
run the recirculate pump They would be wire the same as a three way
switch so the pump could be turned on and off from either bathroom.

Thus would not be a automatic set up. If one was about to use hot
water , one would turn on the pump for a minute or so before using
the hot water.

Dan
Your solution would reqiure running wires, which I don't want to do.
Eric

You could use a wireless switch at the remote location, with the pump
on a timer at the water heater.

On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:14:19 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:27:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
[...]
[...]
Your solution would reqiure running wires, which I don't want to do.
Eric

You could use a wireless switch at the remote location, with the pump
on a timer at the water heater.

Also, you could use a low voltage control (~24vac), similar to a door
bell. Small wire, easy to fish here and there and a lot less code
requirements...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 16:14:19 -0400
"Jim Wilkins" wrote:

wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 5 Jun 2017 11:27:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

[...]
[...]
[...]
Your solution would reqiure running wires, which I don't want to
do.
Eric

You could use a wireless switch at the remote location, with the
pump
on a timer at the water heater.

Also, you could use a low voltage control (~24vac), similar to a
door
bell. Small wire, easy to fish here and there and a lot less code
requirements...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

If fishing the wiring isn't an issue that's easier to set up. Multiple
switches could be paralleled on one wire pair to trigger a time delay
relay so you don't need a forgettable Off switch. The check valve
connecting hot to cold could be a spring-loaded pressure relief set
low, so the line pressure drop from running cold water doesn't draw in
hot. I've had good luck winding replacement low-tension springs for
failed hose nozzles from stainless TIG rod.
-jsw

" writes:


I have thought about this, but have never gotten around to doing anything.

My thought is to have a switch in each upstairs bathroom that would run the recirculate pump

Use a timer, not a switch.


--
A host is a host from coast to
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

On 6/5/2017 11:06 AM, wrote:
Since this involves metal plumbing I figger it's probably OK to post
my questions. Because of the way my house is plumbed it takes a long
time for the water to get hot at a few fixtures. I could put little
water heaters at these fixtures but that would require running power
to the fixtures. Though this could be done it wouldn't be easy. I
looked at two types of recirculating systems and both are lacking. One
relys on a thermostatic valve opening up between the hot and cold
pipes when the hot side cools enough. For the system to work a pump
must be operating , to keep the hot side at a higher pressure. The
other sustem I looked at requires running wires from each fixture. The
wires power a solenoid valve and provide a signal to turn on a pump.
But that would require running wire which as already stated isn't that
easy. I'm wondering if maybe a check valve and a differential switch
could be used to turn on the pump when the thermostatic valve opens.
The valve doesn't require power and each fixture can have its own
valve. Or just one valve can be installed at the furthest fixture.
Advice anyone?
Thanks,
Eric

I have that long-time-til-hot problem at the dishwasher/kitchen sink
.. Probably aggravated by me using all 3/4 PVC right up to where the
service comes thru the floor . In my case though , it's going to be
relatively easy (we're still constructing) to add an instant-hot water
heater under the sink . Just gotta get the unit and see what wire I need
.. I might get lucky and be able to use the 12 ga I have on hand .

--

Snag