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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small
lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so. Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough? I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so. Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough? I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. I've got an old Unimat lathe with bits that look like they're made out of keystock, but act like they're made out of HSS. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com I'm looking for work -- see my website! |
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so. Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough? I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. Some of the older high-performance tool steels like Tantung appear to be cast or forged. --jsw |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700, "Bob La Londe"
wrote: I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so. Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough? I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. Key stock is normally just mild steel. A file should tell you the difference. |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so. Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough? I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs. High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least. If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg. F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty hard, but it's plain carbon steel. -- Ed Huntress |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
wrote in message ... On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so. Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough? I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs. High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least. If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg. F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty hard, but it's plain carbon steel. -- Ed Huntress Ye Olde spark test should give you an idea of what you have. Best Regards Tom. |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
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#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
"John B Slocomb" wrote in message
... On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote: ... We often made boring bars for one off jobs from "drill rod". Takes very little time to forge and temper grind it to shape. Even keeping the cutting speed down to carbon steel speeds it was still a quick way to get a job done :-) I make custom tapered drill bits from O-1 rod, for instance a 20 degree taper for a convergent air nozzle. They cut well enough if slowly when milled half round into D bits. A thin coating of Ivory soap minimizes scaling loss when hardened. --jsw |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700
"Bob La Londe" wrote: snip The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. Maybe try bending a piece. HSS doesn't bend very well (snap!) and most tool steels don't either (shrug). -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 11:55:10 AM UTC-5, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700 "Bob La Londe" wrote: snip The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. Maybe try bending a piece. HSS doesn't bend very well (snap!) and most tool steels don't either (shrug). If you meant that in the onomatopoeic sense, and if it shrugs, it probably won't cut very well. d8-) -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email Happy Thanksgiving, Leon and all. -- Ed Huntress |
#11
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
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#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. [ ... ] I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs. Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried, since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.) High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least. Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess that it is possible, but uncommon. If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg. F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty hard, but it's plain carbon steel. Compare the previously mentioned (and likely now snipped) automatic center punch test -- before and after a heat and quench cycle to see whether it does harden at all. We often made boring bars for one off jobs from "drill rod". Takes very little time to forge and temper grind it to shape. Even keeping the cutting speed down to carbon steel speeds it was still a quick way to get a job done :-) Sure -- drill rod is a relatively high carbon steel -- made to be hardened. Three common flavors -- water hardening "O1" (quench in brine, not plain water, I believe), Oil hardening "O1" (quench in oil), and air hardening "A2" and "D2" (just let it sit in air until it cools.) For most purposes, they all need to be tempered so they are not *too* brittle beofre use. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 4:39:16 PM UTC-5, Leon Fisk wrote:
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 12:46:27 -0800 (PST) wrote: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 11:55:10 AM UTC-5, Leon Fisk wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:03:45 -0700 "Bob La Londe" wrote: snip Maybe try bending a piece. HSS doesn't bend very well (snap!) and most tool steels don't either (shrug). If you meant that in the onomatopoeic sense, and if it shrugs, it probably won't cut very well. d8-) Happy Thanksgiving, Leon and all. Geesh, good thing I have a dictionary, editors... Learning new things keeps you young. d8-) I actually have some very similar pieces around somewhere. Dad picked them up many years ago and we always wondered if they were some sort of blank tool steel. Next time I come across them I'll try the "bend test" on one I have an inherited box of 1/4" and 3/8" keystock. It looks a lot like my box of old HSS lathe-bit stock. I've never done anything with them, but I'll spark-test them when I get a chance. Happy Thanksgiving to you too and all the rest! It was a great one. 'Hope yours was as good. -- Leon Fisk Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b Remove no.spam for email |
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:49:50 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote: On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 6:03:56 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. [ ... ] I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs. Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried, since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.) Plain "mild steel" is carbon steel. A lot of jargon common terms confuse these things. Even the mildest steel contains carbon, at least 0.08 %. The series starts with 1008, which was once used for stamped car-body parts. 1008 won't harden noticeably. When you get up to 1020 (0.2% carbon), it will work-harden a bit but barely quench-harden. Quench-hardening starts at around 1040, but even that doesn't harden much. In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. Keystock comes in a variety of materials but the common ones are 1018 and 1045. High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least. Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess that it is possible, but uncommon. It is somewhat rust-resistant, but it will rust. If you have some hard steel that's not HSS, you can do some cutting with it at low speeds. If it's plain carbon, it ought to take 450 deg. F. That's what was used before we had HSS. My old friend at American Machinist used music wire for cutting tools on his Unimat. That's pretty hard, but it's plain carbon steel. Compare the previously mentioned (and likely now snipped) automatic center punch test -- before and after a heat and quench cycle to see whether it does harden at all. We often made boring bars for one off jobs from "drill rod". Takes very little time to forge and temper grind it to shape. Even keeping the cutting speed down to carbon steel speeds it was still a quick way to get a job done :-) Sure -- drill rod is a relatively high carbon steel -- made to be hardened. Three common flavors -- water hardening "O1" (quench in brine, not plain water, I believe), Oil hardening "O1" (quench in oil), and air hardening "A2" and "D2" (just let it sit in air until it cools.) For most purposes, they all need to be tempered so they are not *too* brittle beofre use. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On 2016-11-25, wrote:
On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:49:50 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote: [ ... ] Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs. Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried, since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.) Plain "mild steel" is carbon steel. A lot of jargon common terms confuse these things. Even the mildest steel contains carbon, at least 0.08 %. The series starts with 1008, which was once used for stamped car-body parts. O.K. Yes, pretty mild steel as they go. :-) 1008 won't harden noticeably. When you get up to 1020 (0.2% carbon), it will work-harden a bit but barely quench-harden. Quench-hardening starts at around 1040, but even that doesn't harden much. O.K. In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter, and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the cut occurs. :-) Keystock comes in a variety of materials but the common ones are 1018 and 1045. O.K. What I have is likely the 1018, based on the feel filing it. High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least. Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess that it is possible, but uncommon. It is somewhat rust-resistant, but it will rust. O.K. Pretty much I guess I haven't exposed it to nasty environments. :-) Thanks for the additional information. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#17
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-25, wrote: On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 8:49:50 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-24, John B Slocomb wrote: On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:13:22 -0800 (PST), wrote: [ ... ] Keystock usually is just plain carbon steel -- not very hard. Try it and see how it performs. Is it even *carbon* steel? I think that what I have is just plain mild steel -- not enough carbon to harden. (I've never tried, since I don't see any benefit to hardening a key.) Plain "mild steel" is carbon steel. A lot of jargon common terms confuse these things. Even the mildest steel contains carbon, at least 0.08 %. The series starts with 1008, which was once used for stamped car-body parts. O.K. Yes, pretty mild steel as they go. :-) 1008 won't harden noticeably. When you get up to 1020 (0.2% carbon), it will work-harden a bit but barely quench-harden. Quench-hardening starts at around 1040, but even that doesn't harden much. O.K. In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter, and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the cut occurs. :-) I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever found to cut it clean, and it works great. Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually 1.0 - 1.2% carbon. It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire. In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and the hardness is comparably 'way up there. Keystock comes in a variety of materials but the common ones are 1018 and 1045. O.K. What I have is likely the 1018, based on the feel filing it. High speed steel is not only hard (typically 62 - 66 Rc), but it has a tempering temperature of around 1,000 deg. F. Sometimes a little more (M4, M42 and above). You can use it right up to the tempering temperature without permanently softening it. That's why it's called "high-speed." You can run the cutting speed up until it just barely glows red -- in a fairly dark room, at least. Also -- I don't think that I have ever seen HSS rust. I guess that it is possible, but uncommon. It is somewhat rust-resistant, but it will rust. O.K. Pretty much I guess I haven't exposed it to nasty environments. :-) Thanks for the additional information. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#18
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Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)
On 2016-11-26, wrote:
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-25, wrote: [ ... ] In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter, and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the cut occurs. :-) I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever found to cut it clean, and it works great. Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points. Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to make watchmaker's chisels. :-) Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually 1.0 - 1.2% carbon. With other weird alloy components for their desired effects? Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds. (For that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds, which I think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer available as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task, except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done either by filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe around. :-) It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire. In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and the hardness is comparably 'way up there. Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator" project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough. For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the lower gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon, assuming that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of something like that on the moon. Enjoy, DoN. -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#19
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)
On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote:
On 2016-11-26, wrote: On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-25, wrote: [ ... ] In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter, and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the cut occurs. :-) I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever found to cut it clean, and it works great. Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points. Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to make watchmaker's chisels. :-) Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually 1.0 - 1.2% carbon. With other weird alloy components for their desired effects? Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually proprietary. There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228), but it's really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which probably is what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon and it contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur, the latter probably to make it draw better. Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon steel, and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's considered to be a plain-carbon steel. Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds. (For that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds, which I think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer available as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task, except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done either by filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe around. :-) It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire. In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and the hardness is comparably 'way up there. Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator" project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough. I don't know. For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the lower gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon, assuming that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of something like that on the moon. Enjoy, DoN. Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science. d8-) -- Ed Huntress -- Remove oil spill source from e-mail Email: | (KV4PH) Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero --- |
#20
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)
wrote in message
... On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-26, wrote: On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-25, wrote: [ ... ] In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter, and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the cut occurs. :-) I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever found to cut it clean, and it works great. Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points. Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to make watchmaker's chisels. :-) Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually 1.0 - 1.2% carbon. With other weird alloy components for their desired effects? Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually proprietary. There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228), but it's really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which probably is what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon and it contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur, the latter probably to make it draw better. Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon steel, and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's considered to be a plain-carbon steel. Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds. (For that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds, which I think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer available as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task, except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done either by filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe around. :-) It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire. In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and the hardness is comparably 'way up there. Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator" project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough. I don't know. For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the lower gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon, assuming that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of something like that on the moon. Enjoy, DoN. Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science. d8-) -- Ed Huntress ============ Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot on the equator. The cable needs to extend higher to where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise --jsw |
#21
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)
On Saturday, November 26, 2016 at 10:01:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Wilkins wrote:
wrote in message ... On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-26, wrote: On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-25, wrote: [ ... ] In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter, and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the cut occurs. :-) I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever found to cut it clean, and it works great. Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points. Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to make watchmaker's chisels. :-) Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually 1.0 - 1.2% carbon. With other weird alloy components for their desired effects? Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually proprietary. There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228), but it's really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which probably is what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon and it contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur, the latter probably to make it draw better. Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon steel, and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's considered to be a plain-carbon steel. Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds. (For that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds, which I think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer available as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task, except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done either by filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe around. :-) It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire. In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and the hardness is comparably 'way up there. Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator" project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough. I don't know. For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the lower gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon, assuming that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of something like that on the moon. Enjoy, DoN. Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science. d8-) -- Ed Huntress ============ Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot on the equator. The cable needs to extend higher to where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise --jsw Okay. What are the highest strength/weight ratio materials? Some carbon variation, most likely. Boron fiber is cool, too. I tried a fly rod made from that stuff once. It's incredibly stiff and very strong. But I doubt if music wire is going to be om the mix. At the extreme, in the finest diameters, its ultimate tensile strength can range up to 460,000 psi. In the thicker sections, around 1/8" dia., it's around 200,000 psi. But, being steel, it's heavy. -- Ed Huntress |
#22
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
news wrote in message ... On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 9:45:48 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-26, wrote: On Friday, November 25, 2016 at 5:51:35 PM UTC-5, DoN. Nichols wrote: On 2016-11-25, wrote: [ ... ] In theory, 1070 will get as hard from quench-hardening as any higher carbon steel. But in practice, it doesn't, supposedly because of the way carbon is distributed in the iron. 1090 (0.9% carbon) comes close but music wire runs up to around 1.2% carbon. That will draw to very high hardness, but I'm told it doesn't quench-harden any more than 1090. 'Dunno, I've never tried it, and I no longer have access to a Mitutoyo hardness tester, anyway. I've recently gotten some music wire at about 0.060" diameter, and boy is that nasty to cut. Compound leverage wire cutters with carbide blades (Starrett) can do it -- but it is still sudden when the cut occurs. :-) I use a thin cutoff wheel on a Dremel. It's the only way I've ever found to cut it clean, and it works great. Well ... this was a clean cut -- if you like chisel points. Maybe that for one end, and the cutoff wheel for the other end to make watchmaker's chisels. :-) Music wire is plain carbon, with an extremely high percentage of carbon. Most brands use a proprietary stock material, but it's usually 1.0 - 1.2% carbon. With other weird alloy components for their desired effects? Not really. As I mentioned, the material stock is usually proprietary. There is an ASTM standard for "music wire" (ASTM A228), but it's really just a designation for a type of spring wire, which probably is what 90% of "music wire" is used for. It's 1.0 % carbon and it contains around 0.30 - 0.60 manganese and a bit of sulfur, the latter probably to make it draw better. Basically, it's really clean, high-quality extreme high-carbon steel, and, despite the miniscule amount of manganese, it's considered to be a plain-carbon steel. Sort of like the flat spring stock used to make accordion reeds. (For that matter, English concertinas started out with "brass" reeds, which I think were an alloy really called "reed bronze", and no longer available as far as I know. (Probably, BeCu would be excellent for the task, except for the hazard to those tuning the reeds, which is done either by filing or by grinding -- neither of which is desirable to breathe around. :-) It isn't heat-treated. It's just work-hardened from drawing the wire. In the thinner pieces, the tensile strength can reach 300,000 psi and the hardness is comparably 'way up there. Hmm ... how close to what is needed for the "space elevator" project? IIRC, even carbon fiber is not yet strong enough. I don't know. For that matter -- do we have anything yet which is strong enough for the same project on Mars (once we get there?) With the lower gravity, that should be easier. And even easier for the moon, assuming that the Earth's gravity would not perturb the stability of something like that on the moon. Enjoy, DoN. Sorry, I don't do astrophysics. Just earthbound materials science. d8-) -- Ed Huntress ============ Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot on the equator. The cable needs to extend higher to where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise --jsw Oops, 5000 kilometers: Shoulda looked it up first. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator "An untapered space elevator cable would need a material capable of sustaining a length of 4,960 kilometers (3,080 mi) of its own weight at sea level to reach a geostationary altitude of 35,786 km (22,236 mi) without yielding." --jsw |
#23
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)
"Jim Wilkins" Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot on the equator. The cable needs to extend higher to where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise How do you apply "centrifugal force" to this counterweight? The satellite wants to travel in a straight line but is drawn toward the earth by centripetal acceleration, "gravity". Art Clarke is full of bull****. There is _no_ force whatsoever acting outward. The cable is pulling inward toward the center of rotation. |
#24
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Hardenable alloys (was: Keystock as Lathe Bits ?)
"Phil Kangas" wrote in message
news "Jim Wilkins" Arthur C Clarke determined that a space elevator requires a material that can support 5000 miles of itself at 1 g, unless it tapers larger as it rises. The gravitational pull on each part of it gradually decreases to zero at geosynchronous altitude, where a satellite will (almost) remain stationary over a spot on the equator. The cable needs to extend higher to where centrifugal force pulls a counterweight outward, balancing the weight of the lower cable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fountains_of_Paradise How do you apply "centrifugal force" to this counterweight? The satellite wants to travel in a straight line but is drawn toward the earth by centripetal acceleration, "gravity". Art Clarke is full of bull****. There is _no_ force whatsoever acting outward. The cable is pulling inward toward the center of rotation. OK, "Centrifugal Force" is really straight-line inertia that acts along the object's instantaneous tangential velocity vector, not radially outward from the center of rotation. It only seems that way to the rotating observer who released the object. The point is that the outer end of the cable beyond GEO is dragged around once per day while the unconstrained angular and orbital velocity of a satellite there would be slower, so the net force on the cable is outward. --jsw |
#25
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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Keystock as Lathe Bits ?
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message
news I have a box of rust covered bits of square bar I got along with a small lathe I bought a few years ago. There were some carbide tipped junk junk bits in the box, but it mostly looked like keystock. I was poking thru the box the other day looking for one of those pieces of carbide when I noticed what looked like an actual HSS lathe bit (unground). It had the undercut on each end that comes on a lot of lathe bits, so I walked it over to the belt sander and knocked the rust off. A name appeared on the side of it. I can't recognize the name, but a name appeared none the less. I went ahead and ground one end to a nice conservative right hand tool and put it in the HSS bits drawer for my big lathe. Worse comes to worse I'll smear the end off, but it took some work to grind so I don't think so. Anyway, after finding that piece I went thru the box again one peice at a time looking to see if there were any more. Except for the carbide tipped mystery metal there were no more obvious lathe bits. The rest all looked to me like precut keystock to me. Slightly rounded edges and a squared off end with slightly rounded edges. Out of curiosity I grabbed my spring punch and hit several peices of it with the punch, and then I went and got that lathe bit and hit it with the spring punch. They all got a very tiny divot or punch mark, but the mark seemed to be the same size on all of it. So... is is all this square stock just a different shape of blank HSS bit or is it the keystock it looks like to me? If it is just keystock can it be ground and used for lathe bits in a pinch or would it be not quite hard enough? I am just curious. I've got a decent selection of insert tooling and a few pieces of known good HSS ground for stuff I don't have inserts for. Well, the spring punch test was worthless. The pieces that look like keystock are easily scratched with a file, and the piece that looked like a manfacturer lathe blank isn't. I compared it to some M2 blanks I have and it seemed to skate the file about the same, but the indeterminate results of the spring punch come immediately to mind. For those commenting on rust... these came to me in their current condition. The box was with other bits and pieces on a shelf on a covered patio. While Arizona is pretty dry its not completely dry. |
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