On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:56:08 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Dec 2014 10:48:08 -0600, amdx wrote:

On 12/16/2014 8:21 PM, jon_banquer wrote:
This is the type of discussion that is way, way about slow eddy's head and for sure it's way above the head of any of Mark Wieber's clique of idiots.

Ahh! bet that feels good, got your little fix of degrading others.

Have you ever pondered why that is important to you?

What it does for your psyche to continuously degrade others.

I'm sure very occasionally you have some introspection, and you're
shocked when you ask yourself, "Why do I do that".


Mikek


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

Monday Ill be leveling a traveling track for a titanium rolling mill.
Its 250' long and has to be leveled to within .002 over the entire
length. In all axis.

Two thousandths over 250 feet, in crossed axes and parallel for
height? The best part of a job like that is that the customer couldn't
measure it, anyway. g

It's like the job we had making electrical connectors for Princeton's
Tokamak fusion reactor, in 1973. There were tapered holes bored
through the center of the cylindrical connectors that met at the
middle, specified to +/- 0.0002" at specific distances from the ends,
with an additional spec for straightness of the tapered sides. We
called every metrology equipment manufacturer in the country and no
one could tell us a practical way to do it. We could have used
metering balls except that we'd get incorrect readings if the
roundness wasn't there, and this was electrolytic copper. Roundness
wouldn't be there.

So we told the purchasing agent we'd have to turn down the job. "Don't
worry about it," said the P.A. "Our engineers couldn't measure it,
anyway." So we made 2,000 of them and they were happy.



Ill bet widdle Joniboi might get his flip flops dirty

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 19 Dec 2014 11:02:30 -0600, "Terry Coombs"

Probably involute . I have Ivan Law's book on gearcutting for a
place to start . And I have access to the largest database in the
world ...

Gear shaper? ****..the world is full of Fellows gear shapers for
under $800

Gunner


Gunner , that was a sometime-in-the-future-maybe-probably attachment for
the Gingery shaper I'll be building . I have neither the money nor the need
for a gear shaper .

--
Snag

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:19:51 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I wonder about my choices until someone mentions their $200-a-month
cable bill or an auto body shop tells me the quarter-sized rust
repair
I made would have cost $800.


So you save about $9,300, not counting your time. Now try figuring
your time.

That's a little less than I got for my last raise. You're a Mensa
member, right? Think about what you could be making.

Or don't. It can make you cry. g

Seriously, we do these things because we want to, not because it
makes
a lot of financial sense.

And besides, when I cut out the old 2-in. cast iron drain pipes that
run down my wet wall, I had a great excuse to buy a new Milwaukee
Sawzall. What could be more fun than a new demolition toy?
--
Ed Huntress

The R&D business rises and falls with the economy. When I worked I put
in lots of overtime and let everything else go, in between I tried to
catch up. I've been retired for a few years and am still trying to
catch up.

My machining and computer "hobbies" were efforts to learn job-related
skills such as Windows administration. I post here to practice
technical writing. A lack of communication skills hindered my
advancement into engineering.
-jsw

Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his balls .
Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I have the
time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt my aluminum , but
that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd be very surprised if I use
over 20 bucks worth .
--
Snag
But I don't have a lot of money ... and
around here a thousand is "real money" .

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 10:56:08 -0800, Gunner Asch

wrote:


It's like the job we had making electrical connectors for
Princeton's
Tokamak fusion reactor, in 1973. There were tapered holes bored
through the center of the cylindrical connectors that met at the
middle, specified to +/- 0.0002" at specific distances from the
ends,
with an additional spec for straightness of the tapered sides. We
called every metrology equipment manufacturer in the country and no
one could tell us a practical way to do it. We could have used
metering balls except that we'd get incorrect readings if the
roundness wasn't there, and this was electrolytic copper. Roundness
wouldn't be there.

So we told the purchasing agent we'd have to turn down the job.
"Don't
worry about it," said the P.A. "Our engineers couldn't measure it,
anyway." So we made 2,000 of them and they were happy.

I found that home-machined demo parts to pass around at meetings
convinced the Ph.Ds to tell me the final result they needed and let me
figure out how to accomplish it, especially when it was outside their
discipline. Electrical engineers are easily impressed by mechanical
tricks, and vice versa. Chemists had to be fairly familiar with
everything since they could be working alone.in any industry.
-jsw

On 12/20/2014 1:07 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:

It's like the job we had making electrical connectors for Princeton's
Tokamak fusion reactor, in 1973. There were tapered holes bored
through the center of the cylindrical connectors that met at the
middle, specified to +/- 0.0002" at specific distances from the ends,
with an additional spec for straightness of the tapered sides. We
called every metrology equipment manufacturer in the country and no
one could tell us a practical way to do it. We could have used
metering balls except that we'd get incorrect readings if the
roundness wasn't there, and this was electrolytic copper. Roundness
wouldn't be there.

So we told the purchasing agent we'd have to turn down the job. "Don't
worry about it," said the P.A. "Our engineers couldn't measure it,
anyway." So we made 2,000 of them and they were happy.

A job I worked on specified a 63 finish on a tiny inaccessible taper,
about like a countersink with a .100" diameter around a .050" hole. No
way to get any kind of gauge to check it.

We finally asked the customer's engineers how they checked it.

"We just look to see if its shiny!"

David

On 12/20/2014 11:45 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:19:51 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

I wonder about my choices until someone mentions their $200-a-month
cable bill or an auto body shop tells me the quarter-sized rust repair
I made would have cost $800.

The bank sent a credit card ad offering purchase points for typical
bills, which it listed as $99 for cell phone, $134 for cable, $129 for
electric, $225 for gas and $450 for groceries. I pay less than a
quarter of that.

Think I'll go down and pump some more transmission oil into the 1968
Maytag.
-jsw


So you save about $9,300, not counting your time. Now try figuring
your time.

That's a little less than I got for my last raise. You're a Mensa
member, right? Think about what you could be making.

Or don't. It can make you cry. g

Seriously, we do these things because we want to, not because it makes
a lot of financial sense.

And besides, when I cut out the old 2-in. cast iron drain pipes that
run down my wet wall, I had a great excuse to buy a new Milwaukee
Sawzall. What could be more fun than a new demolition toy?


One of the reasons I don't reload ammo is that the alleged cost savings
don't factor in the value of my time. That's OK for those who find
reloading recreational in itself. I don't, I'd rather spend more time
shooting.

And I haven't done an oil change in years, I can't do it as cheaply as I
can have it done, especially since they put oil filters where you have
to lift the car to get at them.

Not interested in paying someone to shoot for me, though.

:^)

David

David

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:28:57 -0600, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his balls .
Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I have the
time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt my aluminum , but
that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd be very surprised if I use
over 20 bucks worth .

Gotcha.

I the kind of guy that buys something good... cheap, does whatever
fixup it needs, then puts it to work. Paint is "down the road when Ive
got some extra paint and time on my hands"

It IS fun building a machine from scratch, but it takes a fair amount
of time, though it does provide lots of machining and alignment and
such Stuff.

I build a gun on occasion. I build em right, pretty them up for the
level of use..then go and do what they are for...shoot em, hunt with
them. Ive got a dozen or so that Ive built that I might brag about
building..but Ill wipe/oil the rock scrapes and bluing bruises before
showing em off.
Im in the process of building a Zombie Sword (Grin) and pretty it will
not be..but I will be able to hack down a tree, a Leftist Zombie, or
pry a vehicle out of the mud with it . And before showing it off..it
will have done 2 out of three ......

Different strokes for different folks.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

"David R. Birch" wrote in message
...
On 12/20/2014 1:07 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:

It's like the job we had making electrical connectors for
Princeton's
Tokamak fusion reactor, in 1973. There were tapered holes bored
through the center of the cylindrical connectors that met at the
middle, specified to +/- 0.0002" at specific distances from the
ends,
with an additional spec for straightness of the tapered sides. We
called every metrology equipment manufacturer in the country and no
one could tell us a practical way to do it. We could have used
metering balls except that we'd get incorrect readings if the
roundness wasn't there, and this was electrolytic copper. Roundness
wouldn't be there.

So we told the purchasing agent we'd have to turn down the job.
"Don't
worry about it," said the P.A. "Our engineers couldn't measure it,
anyway." So we made 2,000 of them and they were happy.

A job I worked on specified a 63 finish on a tiny inaccessible
taper, about like a countersink with a .100" diameter around a .050"
hole. No way to get any kind of gauge to check it.

We finally asked the customer's engineers how they checked it.

"We just look to see if its shiny!"

David

On the other hand, if you relax the tolerance on inch parts to two
decimal places the odd-numbered eighths are always wrong.
-jsw

"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out
there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his balls
. Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I
have the time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt my
aluminum , but that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd be
very surprised if I use over 20 bucks worth .
--
Snag
But I don't have a lot of money ... and
around here a thousand is "real money" .

My overly ambitious beginner project was a milling vise for a small
lathe. I learned many valuable lessons about cutting and measuring
accurate dovetail slides, such as not to try it again without better
milling and measurement equipment.
-jsw

On Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:31:07 PM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out
there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his balls
. Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I
have the time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt my
aluminum , but that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd be
very surprised if I use over 20 bucks worth .
--
Snag
But I don't have a lot of money ... and
around here a thousand is "real money" .

My overly ambitious beginner project was a milling vise for a small
lathe. I learned many valuable lessons about cutting and measuring
accurate dovetail slides, such as not to try it again without better
milling and measurement equipment.
-jsw

I can and have built a quality milling vise with nothing but a dial caliper, gauge pins and wasted, used up, knee mill. So have many others who take machining in adult education or in trade school.

"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:31:07 PM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out
there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his
balls
. Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I
have the time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt
my
aluminum , but that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd
be
very surprised if I use over 20 bucks worth .
--
Snag
But I don't have a lot of money ... and
around here a thousand is "real money" .

My overly ambitious beginner project was a milling vise for a small
lathe. I learned many valuable lessons about cutting and measuring
accurate dovetail slides, such as not to try it again without
better
milling and measurement equipment.
-jsw

I can and have built a quality milling vise with nothing but a dial
caliper, gauge pins and wasted, used up, knee mill. So have many
others who take machining in adult education or in trade school.


Notice I wrote for a LATHE. The vise part of it came out well enough.
The problem was smoothing the milled vertical slide dovetails without
degrading their accuracy.
-jsw

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 15:20:06 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:19:51 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


I wonder about my choices until someone mentions their $200-a-month
cable bill or an auto body shop tells me the quarter-sized rust
repair
I made would have cost $800.


So you save about $9,300, not counting your time. Now try figuring
your time.

That's a little less than I got for my last raise. You're a Mensa
member, right? Think about what you could be making.

Or don't. It can make you cry. g

Seriously, we do these things because we want to, not because it
makes
a lot of financial sense.

And besides, when I cut out the old 2-in. cast iron drain pipes that
run down my wet wall, I had a great excuse to buy a new Milwaukee
Sawzall. What could be more fun than a new demolition toy?
--
Ed Huntress

The R&D business rises and falls with the economy. When I worked I put
in lots of overtime and let everything else go, in between I tried to
catch up. I've been retired for a few years and am still trying to
catch up.

My machining and computer "hobbies" were efforts to learn job-related
skills such as Windows administration. I post here to practice
technical writing. A lack of communication skills hindered my
advancement into engineering.
-jsw

I think you've overcome that lack, Jim. You're posts are always clear,
which is most of the job of technical writing -- besides having a
pretty good idea of what you're talking about. g

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 17:56:18 -0600, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 12/20/2014 11:45 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 12:19:51 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"

I wonder about my choices until someone mentions their $200-a-month
cable bill or an auto body shop tells me the quarter-sized rust repair
I made would have cost $800.

The bank sent a credit card ad offering purchase points for typical
bills, which it listed as $99 for cell phone, $134 for cable, $129 for
electric, $225 for gas and $450 for groceries. I pay less than a
quarter of that.

Think I'll go down and pump some more transmission oil into the 1968
Maytag.
-jsw


So you save about $9,300, not counting your time. Now try figuring
your time.

That's a little less than I got for my last raise. You're a Mensa
member, right? Think about what you could be making.

Or don't. It can make you cry. g

Seriously, we do these things because we want to, not because it makes
a lot of financial sense.

And besides, when I cut out the old 2-in. cast iron drain pipes that
run down my wet wall, I had a great excuse to buy a new Milwaukee
Sawzall. What could be more fun than a new demolition toy?


One of the reasons I don't reload ammo is that the alleged cost savings
don't factor in the value of my time. That's OK for those who find
reloading recreational in itself. I don't, I'd rather spend more time
shooting.

And I haven't done an oil change in years, I can't do it as cheaply as I
can have it done, especially since they put oil filters where you have
to lift the car to get at them.

Not interested in paying someone to shoot for me, though.

:^)

David

That's become my approach, too. I build flyrods because I love
building fishing rods, but I only do it when it's too cold to fish. I
wouldn't spend a minute building one when the trout are rising.

I admit, though, that I still change my own oil and filters. It
probably doesn't make any sense but I know just what oil is going in
there, and I don't use cheap filters.

I don't trust those oil-change mechanics. I use a new copper washer;
clean the seats really well; and I use fresh oil on the filter gasket.
I've seen them applying used oil, and I've had to poke a hole in
filters they've seated to get enough purchase to remove them.

I do have good ramps.

--
Ed Huntress

On Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:08:13 PM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:31:07 PM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out
there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his
balls
. Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I
have the time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt
my
aluminum , but that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd
be
very surprised if I use over 20 bucks worth .
--
Snag
But I don't have a lot of money ... and
around here a thousand is "real money" .

My overly ambitious beginner project was a milling vise for a small
lathe. I learned many valuable lessons about cutting and measuring
accurate dovetail slides, such as not to try it again without
better
milling and measurement equipment.
-jsw

I can and have built a quality milling vise with nothing but a dial
caliper, gauge pins and wasted, used up, knee mill. So have many
others who take machining in adult education or in trade school.


Notice I wrote for a LATHE. The vise part of it came out well enough.
The problem was smoothing the milled vertical slide dovetails without
degrading their accuracy.
-jsw

I saw that you wrote lathe. I did mine on a mill. If I didn't have a mill I could have used a lathe with a mill attachment.

You can lap the dovetails in to get the accuracy you desire. You would need to buy or make a master. Close tolerance can be had if you have the time and the patience.

Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out
there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his balls
. Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I
have the time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt my
aluminum , but that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd be
very surprised if I use over 20 bucks worth .
--
Snag
But I don't have a lot of money ... and
around here a thousand is "real money" .

My overly ambitious beginner project was a milling vise for a small
lathe. I learned many valuable lessons about cutting and measuring
accurate dovetail slides, such as not to try it again without better
milling and measurement equipment.
-jsw

Dovetails don't scare me . I've built a Holes Creek ball turner for the
lathe and a boring head for the mill with brass gib locking dovetails . Both
have micrometer adjust . I had this book several years ago and actually
started making the patterns then just lost interest . I have a lot more time
now and my skill set has grown considerably . The time has come .

--
Snag

On Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:40:50 PM UTC-8, jon_banquer wrote:
On Saturday, December 20, 2014 5:08:13 PM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"jon_banquer" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, December 20, 2014 4:31:07 PM UTC-8, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote in message
...
Gunner Asch wrote:
Terry....why dont you simply BUY a good used shaper?

I know its fun to build one...but there are hundreds of them out
there
for very very little money.

Gunner

I want to build a shaper for the same reason a dog licks his
balls
. Because I can . I have the materials . I have the equipment . I
have the time . I wiill be paying for the propane I use to melt
my
aluminum , but that'll be the only out of pocket cost - and I'd
be
very surprised if I use over 20 bucks worth .
--
Snag
But I don't have a lot of money ... and
around here a thousand is "real money" .

My overly ambitious beginner project was a milling vise for a small
lathe. I learned many valuable lessons about cutting and measuring
accurate dovetail slides, such as not to try it again without
better
milling and measurement equipment.
-jsw

I can and have built a quality milling vise with nothing but a dial
caliper, gauge pins and wasted, used up, knee mill. So have many
others who take machining in adult education or in trade school.


Notice I wrote for a LATHE. The vise part of it came out well enough.
The problem was smoothing the milled vertical slide dovetails without
degrading their accuracy.
-jsw

I saw that you wrote lathe. I did mine on a mill. If I didn't have a mill I could have used a lathe with a mill attachment.

You can lap the dovetails in to get the accuracy you desire. You would need to buy or make a master. Close tolerance can be had if you have the time and the patience.


Ed Connelly wrote a book on scrapping. I highly recommend you buy a copy.

It's amazing what you can produce with knowledge and pure **** for tools if you know what you doing and how to properly check as you go along. With time, patience and knowledge you can build very accurate tools.


http://www.amazon.com/Machine-Tool-R.../dp/9996967085

jon_banquer wrote:


I can and have built a quality milling vise with nothing but a dial caliper, gauge pins and wasted, used up, knee mill. So have many others who take machining in adult education or in trade school.*

I took three years of a five year high-voltage electrical school course and some low voltage coursework, a two year HVAC course, a commercial drivers' course and two years of a five year plumbing course.

Continuing education courses can prove very valuable in the short and long run.

On Sunday, December 21, 2014 10:02:49 AM UTC-8, wrote:
jon_banquer wrote:


I can and have built a quality milling vise with nothing but a dial caliper, gauge pins and wasted, used up, knee mill. So have many others who take machining in adult education or in trade school.*

I took three years of a five year high-voltage electrical school course and some low voltage coursework, a two year HVAC course, a commercial drivers' course and two years of a five year plumbing course.

Continuing education courses can prove very valuable in the short and long run.


Once you stop learning you might as well be dead.

Not enough machinists understand how mechanical accuracy is obtained which is why I mentioned Ed Connelly's book.