As mentioned in the subject, I'm looking for steel suitable to be used to make an Olympic barbell, 2.2m long and 28mm in diameter. I'm torn between chrome-moly steel and spring steel. Again I'm not a metallurgist and know very little about these things. The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength. I'm also looking for decent machining characteristics so that I can put a knurl on it and cut grooves to attach sleeves.

Here are some steels I've thought about

SAE 4340 (Heat treated to the required Tensile strength)
SAE 4140
EN 47??

Thanks

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:47:38 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

As mentioned in the subject, I'm looking for steel suitable to be used to make an Olympic barbell, 2.2m long and 28mm in diameter. I'm torn between chrome-moly steel and spring steel. Again I'm not a metallurgist and know very little about these things. The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength. I'm also looking for decent machining characteristics so that I can put a knurl on it and cut grooves to attach sleeves.

Here are some steels I've thought about

SAE 4340 (Heat treated to the required Tensile strength)
SAE 4140
EN 47??

Thanks

Those are extraordinarily high strength requirements. No steel
hardened to those levels will be easy to machine; probably
near-impossible to knurl.

You can machine it in a normalized or annealed state, and then have it
heat-treated. But are you sure you need that level of strength? What
kind of load will be put on it to require that much strength?

--
Ed Huntress

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

Dan

On 2014-11-09, wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a
human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the
maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an
ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

It is a thin bar, holding possibly 500 lbs on ends, held possibly in
almost one point.

i

On Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:31:30 -0600, Ignoramus16121
wrote:

On 2014-11-09, wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a
human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the
maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an
ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

It is a thin bar, holding possibly 500 lbs on ends, held possibly in
almost one point.

i

I get 1,026 total pounds of weights to reach yield strength. You're a
good guesser, Ig.

I think. I had to convert it all to inches, because I get screwed up
using metric units for force -- kilogram-force versus Newtons.

So don't count on it.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ignoramus16121" wrote in message
...

On 2014-11-09, wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi
yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a
human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the
maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an
ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

It is a thin bar, holding possibly 500 lbs on ends, held possibly in
almost one point.

i
================================================== ===============================

Just for grins I ran the numbers for a bar 2.2 m long 28 mm dia simply
supported at the ends with 1000 lbs concentrated at the center. That is
equivalent to supporting the bar at the center and putting 500 lbs at the
very end of each side. The deflection at the center if the bar doesn't
yield will be 6.44 inches and the maximum stress will be 165,000 psi. I'll
never stress a bar that much (at least not using just one hand :-) :-) :-)),
but depending on the actual weight (one poster said about 300 kg as a
reasonable max which is 660 lbs), and adding in some margin of safety since
it will be a live load (3x? like a floor or deck that people walk on), the
OP's specs aren't unreasonable as goals and may be low. In reality the
center of gravity of the weights will be at least 8-10" from each end, and
the lifts with maximum weight will be with two hands probably 24" apart.
Using those dimensions (bar 20" shorter supported in two places 24" apart)
and 500 lbs at each end gives much more reasonable results, max deflection
2.4" at the center and max stress of 81,000 psi. The real win would be
going up in diameter; even 32 mm (1.26") makes the bar 1.7 times stiffer and
stronger. If this is a custom bar aimed at world record weights, I think it
is reasonable to assume adult-sized hands so think about making the bar
bigger unless some sanctioning body has a rule specifying the dimensions.
If you can't make it bigger, at least try to squeeze the weights as close to
the center as you can.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 15:20:59 -0500, "Carl Ijames"
wrote:

"Ignoramus16121" wrote in message
...

On 2014-11-09, wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi
yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a
human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the
maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an
ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

It is a thin bar, holding possibly 500 lbs on ends, held possibly in
almost one point.

i
================================================= ================================

Just for grins I ran the numbers for a bar 2.2 m long 28 mm dia simply
supported at the ends with 1000 lbs concentrated at the center. That is
equivalent to supporting the bar at the center and putting 500 lbs at the
very end of each side. The deflection at the center if the bar doesn't
yield will be 6.44 inches and the maximum stress will be 165,000 psi. I'll
never stress a bar that much (at least not using just one hand :-) :-) :-)),
but depending on the actual weight (one poster said about 300 kg as a
reasonable max which is 660 lbs), and adding in some margin of safety since
it will be a live load (3x? like a floor or deck that people walk on), the
OP's specs aren't unreasonable as goals and may be low. In reality the
center of gravity of the weights will be at least 8-10" from each end, and
the lifts with maximum weight will be with two hands probably 24" apart.
Using those dimensions (bar 20" shorter supported in two places 24" apart)
and 500 lbs at each end gives much more reasonable results, max deflection
2.4" at the center and max stress of 81,000 psi. The real win would be
going up in diameter; even 32 mm (1.26") makes the bar 1.7 times stiffer and
stronger. If this is a custom bar aimed at world record weights, I think it
is reasonable to assume adult-sized hands so think about making the bar
bigger unless some sanctioning body has a rule specifying the dimensions.
If you can't make it bigger, at least try to squeeze the weights as close to
the center as you can.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

===================================
Anything to be gained by pre stressing the bar [assuming it
is hollow] by putting some sort of tensioning device in the
center such as a high strength (1/2"?) steel rod
w/tensioning nuts on the end caps?


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Sun, 09 Nov 2014 19:49:09 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 15:20:59 -0500, "Carl Ijames"
wrote:

"Ignoramus16121" wrote in message
...

On 2014-11-09, wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi
yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a
human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the
maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an
ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

It is a thin bar, holding possibly 500 lbs on ends, held possibly in
almost one point.

i
================================================ =================================

Just for grins I ran the numbers for a bar 2.2 m long 28 mm dia simply
supported at the ends with 1000 lbs concentrated at the center. That is
equivalent to supporting the bar at the center and putting 500 lbs at the
very end of each side. The deflection at the center if the bar doesn't
yield will be 6.44 inches and the maximum stress will be 165,000 psi. I'll
never stress a bar that much (at least not using just one hand :-) :-) :-)),
but depending on the actual weight (one poster said about 300 kg as a
reasonable max which is 660 lbs), and adding in some margin of safety since
it will be a live load (3x? like a floor or deck that people walk on), the
OP's specs aren't unreasonable as goals and may be low. In reality the
center of gravity of the weights will be at least 8-10" from each end, and
the lifts with maximum weight will be with two hands probably 24" apart.
Using those dimensions (bar 20" shorter supported in two places 24" apart)
and 500 lbs at each end gives much more reasonable results, max deflection
2.4" at the center and max stress of 81,000 psi. The real win would be
going up in diameter; even 32 mm (1.26") makes the bar 1.7 times stiffer and
stronger. If this is a custom bar aimed at world record weights, I think it
is reasonable to assume adult-sized hands so think about making the bar
bigger unless some sanctioning body has a rule specifying the dimensions.
If you can't make it bigger, at least try to squeeze the weights as close to
the center as you can.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames

===================================
Anything to be gained by pre stressing the bar [assuming it
is hollow] by putting some sort of tensioning device in the
center such as a high strength (1/2"?) steel rod
w/tensioning nuts on the end caps?

Ive got an Olympic class bar with my weight set. Its solid bar stock.
Get a few hundred pounds on a hollow bar..its called a pipe..and it
will bend in a heartbeat.

Gunner

"At the core of liberalism is the spoiled child,
miserable, as all spoiled children are, unsatisfied,
demanding, ill-disciplined, despotic and useless.
Liberalism is a philosophy of sniveling brats."
PJ O'Rourke

Carl Ijames wrote:
"Ignoramus16121" wrote in message
...

On 2014-11-09, wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi
yield strength.
Thanks
I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a
human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the
maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an
ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

It is a thin bar, holding possibly 500 lbs on ends, held possibly in
almost one point.

i
================================================== ===============================

Just for grins I ran the numbers for a bar 2.2 m long 28 mm dia simply
supported at the ends with 1000 lbs concentrated at the center. That is
equivalent to supporting the bar at the center and putting 500 lbs at the
very end of each side. The deflection at the center if the bar doesn't
yield will be 6.44 inches and the maximum stress will be 165,000 psi. I'll
never stress a bar that much (at least not using just one hand :-) :-) :-)),
but depending on the actual weight (one poster said about 300 kg as a
reasonable max which is 660 lbs), and adding in some margin of safety since
it will be a live load (3x? like a floor or deck that people walk on), the
OP's specs aren't unreasonable as goals and may be low. In reality the
center of gravity of the weights will be at least 8-10" from each end, and
the lifts with maximum weight will be with two hands probably 24" apart.
Using those dimensions (bar 20" shorter supported in two places 24" apart)
and 500 lbs at each end gives much more reasonable results, max deflection
2.4" at the center and max stress of 81,000 psi. The real win would be
going up in diameter; even 32 mm (1.26") makes the bar 1.7 times stiffer and
stronger. If this is a custom bar aimed at world record weights, I think it
is reasonable to assume adult-sized hands so think about making the bar
bigger unless some sanctioning body has a rule specifying the dimensions.
If you can't make it bigger, at least try to squeeze the weights as close to
the center as you can.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames





http://www.garage-gyms.com/olympic-b...ing-guide/#Oly

--
Steve W.

On 11/9/2014 1:31 PM, Ignoramus16121 wrote:
On 2014-11-09, wrote:
On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a
human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the
maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an
ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

It is a thin bar, holding possibly 500 lbs on ends, held possibly in
almost one point.

i

And as you might recall - snatching one and press it to the top and let
it fall to the ground. Hitting one end and crunch.

Martin

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 10:48:21 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 12:47:43 PM UTC-5, Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:

The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength.
Thanks

I can not imagine needing that kind of strength for something that a human in going to use. What diameter is the bar? What is the maximum weight that is going to be on the bar? My guess is that an ordinary barbell is made of something like A36.

Dan

The top end Olympic lifting bars (Elieko) are said to be 215,000 psi
tensile strength steel and are heat treated. They claim to test their7
bars in a jig that loads them to 1,500 Kg. (3,306 Lb.) and the bar
must withstand that without taking a permanent set.

The Men's standard bar is 2.2 M (7.2 ft.) long, the center section is
28 mm (1.1") with a "sleeve" on each end that is 415mm (16.3") long by
50 mm (1.968") in diameter. the sleeves are mounted on bearings so
that when lifting the weights do not apply any torque to the center
section where the bar is gripped. the complete bar weighs 20 Kg.

A quick look seems to show that Hossein Rezazadeh, an Iranian, holds
the record at a total weight lifted, in the two events, of 472 Kg, The
Clean & Jerk record is 363 kg. and the Snatch record is 214 kg.

The maximum that a human can bend over and pickup (Dead Lift) seems to
be in the neighborhood of 460 Kg. or 1014 lbs.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:47:38 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

snip
The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile st=
rength with 170000 psi yield strength.
/snip

You are talking about very expensive HY210 submarine hull
steel. I don't know if this is available in the civilian
market.

These specs seem excessive for even Olympic class lifters.
A quick google search indicates less than 300Kg for any
single lift. http://tinyurl.com/lmoxl6a


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:05:58 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:47:38 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

snip
The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile st=
rength with 170000 psi yield strength.
/snip

You are talking about very expensive HY210 submarine hull
steel. I don't know if this is available in the civilian
market.

These specs seem excessive for even Olympic class lifters.
A quick google search indicates less than 300Kg for any
single lift. http://tinyurl.com/lmoxl6a

He's around the high end for heat-treated 4340. The thing is, with
yield of 170 kpsi and ultimate tensile of 190, when that bar is
overloaded, it's going to go "Bang!"

It doesn't sound like something you'd want in a barbell. g

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:05:58 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:47:38 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

snip
The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile st=
rength with 170000 psi yield strength.
/snip

You are talking about very expensive HY210 submarine hull
steel. I don't know if this is available in the civilian
market.

These specs seem excessive for even Olympic class lifters.
A quick google search indicates less than 300Kg for any
single lift. http://tinyurl.com/lmoxl6a

He's around the high end for heat-treated 4340. The thing is, with
yield of 170 kpsi and ultimate tensile of 190, when that bar is
overloaded, it's going to go "Bang!"

It doesn't sound like something you'd want in a barbell. g


Actually his numbers are at the minimum that are allowed in an Olympic bar.
The lower end bars are 170K tensile. The good ones are up around 210K!

The idea is that the bar has to flex when you lift, that helps you by
storing energy that helps you flip during the lift. The bars also have
bearing inside the weight sleeves so that as you lift the plates don't
apply any torque to the bar and spoil the lift.

I have friends who lift HEAVY and most seem to use Eleiko, York or
Werksan bars. They are not cheap but they do seem to last.

When they do clean/jerk lifts that bar looks like a wet noodle.

--
Steve W.

On Mon, 10 Nov 2014 10:43:15 -0500, "Steve W."
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 09 Nov 2014 13:05:58 -0600, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Sun, 9 Nov 2014 09:47:38 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

snip
The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile st=
rength with 170000 psi yield strength.
/snip

You are talking about very expensive HY210 submarine hull
steel. I don't know if this is available in the civilian
market.

These specs seem excessive for even Olympic class lifters.
A quick google search indicates less than 300Kg for any
single lift. http://tinyurl.com/lmoxl6a

He's around the high end for heat-treated 4340. The thing is, with
yield of 170 kpsi and ultimate tensile of 190, when that bar is
overloaded, it's going to go "Bang!"

It doesn't sound like something you'd want in a barbell. g


Actually his numbers are at the minimum that are allowed in an Olympic bar.
The lower end bars are 170K tensile. The good ones are up around 210K!

The idea is that the bar has to flex when you lift, that helps you by
storing energy that helps you flip during the lift. The bars also have
bearing inside the weight sleeves so that as you lift the plates don't
apply any torque to the bar and spoil the lift.

I have friends who lift HEAVY and most seem to use Eleiko, York or
Werksan bars. They are not cheap but they do seem to last.

When they do clean/jerk lifts that bar looks like a wet noodle.

That's really pushing what you can do without really good material
specification and very expert heat treating. You can get the ultimate
tensile strength, but avoiding brittleness at that level of tensile
strength is a job for the experts.

--
Ed Huntress

replying to Steve W. , Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:
csr684 wrote:

Actually his numbers are at the minimum that are allowed in an Olympic
bar.
The lower end bars are 170K tensile. The good ones are up around 210K!
The idea is that the bar has to flex when you lift, that helps you by
storing energy that helps you flip during the lift. The bars also have
bearing inside the weight sleeves so that as you lift the plates don't
apply any torque to the bar and spoil the lift.
I have friends who lift HEAVY and most seem to use Eleiko, York or
Werksan bars. They are not cheap but they do seem to last.
When they do clean/jerk lifts that bar looks like a wet noodle.
--
Steve W.



What you are saying is absolutely true. This link ebay. co
m.au/itm/F-OLB-Force-USA-Olympic-Lifting-Bar-20-Kg-Cross-Fit-Warranted-for-Crossfit-Use-/321487232831
(delete the spaces) advertises a bar of 216000 psi TS and it's mentioned
that the bar is made from SCM 440 (same as AISI 4140) heat treated steel.
What's bothering me is the hardness. Firstly I want to machine the bar and
I also don't want it to be too brittle. Even if the yield strength is
exceeded, I want the bar to bend not break.

Thanks

--


--
posted from
http://www.polytechforum.com/metalwo...ll-605857-.htm
using PolytechForum's Web, RSS and Social Media Interface to
rec.crafts.metalworking and other engineering groups

On Sat, 15 Nov 2014 18:18:01 +0000, Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

replying to Steve W. , Sandarpan Mukherjee wrote:
csr684 wrote:

Actually his numbers are at the minimum that are allowed in an Olympic
bar.
The lower end bars are 170K tensile. The good ones are up around 210K!
The idea is that the bar has to flex when you lift, that helps you by
storing energy that helps you flip during the lift. The bars also have
bearing inside the weight sleeves so that as you lift the plates don't
apply any torque to the bar and spoil the lift.
I have friends who lift HEAVY and most seem to use Eleiko, York or
Werksan bars. They are not cheap but they do seem to last.
When they do clean/jerk lifts that bar looks like a wet noodle.
--
Steve W.



What you are saying is absolutely true. This link ebay. co
m.au/itm/F-OLB-Force-USA-Olympic-Lifting-Bar-20-Kg-Cross-Fit-Warranted-for-Crossfit-Use-/321487232831
(delete the spaces) advertises a bar of 216000 psi TS and it's mentioned
that the bar is made from SCM 440 (same as AISI 4140) heat treated steel.
What's bothering me is the hardness. Firstly I want to machine the bar and
I also don't want it to be too brittle. Even if the yield strength is
exceeded, I want the bar to bend not break.

Thanks

It's not easy to find specific elongation properties of 4140 when it's
heat-treated to 216 kpsi tensile. At the extreme end, 285,000 psi,
elongation is 11% and machineability is 65%. Hardness is 578 Brinell
or Rc 55.

That's more machineable than I expected, although it's carbide-only at
285 kpsi, and I didn't even know that it could develop 285 kpsi
tensile strength. That kind of tensile strength, in diameters larger
than wire, usually is associated with fairly brittle specialty steels
and very low elongation.

So, at 216,000, elongation can be expected to be over 11%. That's not
terrible. It shouldn't be inclined to break as soon as the yield
strength is exceeded.

The thing is, heat-treating sounds tricky -- normalize, reheat for
time, oil-qnench and extended temper -- and it probably requires real
expertise to achieve those extreme properties without brittleness. You
can buy it normalized but the time/temperature sounds like a job for
carefully controlled furnaces.

http://www.matweb.com/search/datashe...a46a1f1 eb1c3

Good luck!

--
Ed Huntress

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

--
Ed Huntress

On Saturday, 22 November 2014 22:12:46 UTC+5:30, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

--
Ed Huntress

Also as far as I can tell from my decaying memories of Strength of Materials 101, thicker materials are more brittle than the same material when thinner? Especially high carbon steels. Is that correct?

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 10:09:21 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

On Saturday, 22 November 2014 22:12:46 UTC+5:30, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

--
Ed Huntress

Also as far as I can tell from my decaying memories of Strength of Materials 101, thicker materials are more brittle than the same material when thinner? Especially high carbon steels. Is that correct?

Hmmm. I'm rusty on a lot of this (no pun intended g). "Brittleness"
is not a term that metallurgists ordinarily use. They look at
elongation, and the gap between yield strength and ultimate tensile
strength. Charpy and Izod impact strength are additional terms. In
discussions of tool steels, you'll also see the term "timbre," which
is not well-defined.

What you're looking for, I think, is a determination of what happens
when the yield strength of the bar is exceeded. Does it bend, or does
it quickly reach the ultimate tensile strength, and snap? And if it
bends, how much does it bend before it snaps?

Right? If that's the case, I don't know the answer. I know that 5%
elongation suggests little bending before it snaps. As for thin versus
thick, that's a problem of mechanics: a 5% elongation in tension
allows more bending, in terms of degrees of bend, in a small wire
versus a thicker bar. So a smaller bar should bend more before
breaking than a larger one, all other properties being equal. This is
discussed in terms of the behavior of the "outermost fibers"
(theoretical) of a beam, including a wire or bar. It also explains why
a 300 kpsi piece of music wire will bend quite a lot before breaking.

I think. g Maybe someone who's more up to date on Statics and the
Strength of Materials (that's the title of a good book on the subject)
can chime in and correct me on this.

--
Ed Huntress

On 11/22/2014 10:42 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

Be sure to watch the movie clip in the picture choices. Nice drop
tests that passed.

Martin

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 18:25:32 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 11/22/2014 10:42 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

Be sure to watch the movie clip in the picture choices. Nice drop
tests that passed.

Martin

The video is interesting, but I was more impressed with the bending
test done in a machine. It's hard to tell what the actual load is on
the bar in those drop tests.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sunday, 23 November 2014 06:33:42 UTC+5:30, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 18:25:32 -0600, Martin Eastburn
wrote:

On 11/22/2014 10:42 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

Be sure to watch the movie clip in the picture choices. Nice drop
tests that passed.

Martin

The video is interesting, but I was more impressed with the bending
test done in a machine. It's hard to tell what the actual load is on
the bar in those drop tests.

--
Ed Huntress

The actual load in the drop tests is easy to tell. Each plate is 45 lbs.

On Saturday, November 22, 2014 11:42:46 AM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:


"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

--
Ed Huntress

I would think that 4130 would be a better choice than 4340.

Dan

On Sunday, 23 November 2014 06:29:52 UTC+5:30, wrote:
On Saturday, November 22, 2014 11:42:46 AM UTC-5, Ed Huntress wrote:


"Chrome-moly" usually means AISI 4340 steel or equivalent. 240 kpsi is
about the maximum, and elongation falls off sharply above 200 kpsi. At
225, it's down around 5/%.

Is that enough for your bar? I don't know. Maybe the real-world
application is no problem. At 5%, as a general matter in structural
applications, you begin to expect sudden failures. But maybe it's OK
for such a bar.

--
Ed Huntress

I would think that 4130 would be a better choice than 4340.

Dan

Dan,

4130 doesn't meet my strength requirements. Remember, I need the bar to resist permanent deformation. That can be achieved only by high yield strength.. The standard is 200000 psi Tensile strength with ~ 180000 psi yield strength. Even then bars bend with abuse.

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

I'm more of a newb when it comes to metallurgy, but I think the
strength of the steel comes from the alloy, while brittleness comes
from the temper. Strong steels can be tempered for less brittleness,
which is what I think is happening in that bar. /opinion

--
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington

On Sunday, 23 November 2014 00:08:08 UTC+5:30, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

I'm more of a newb when it comes to metallurgy, but I think the
strength of the steel comes from the alloy, while brittleness comes
from the temper. Strong steels can be tempered for less brittleness,
which is what I think is happening in that bar. /opinion

--
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington

Yes but tempering takes away hardness(brittleness also)as well as strength. Strength and brittleness have a strong correlation.

On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 21:16:20 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

On Sunday, 23 November 2014 00:08:08 UTC+5:30, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

I'm more of a newb when it comes to metallurgy, but I think the
strength of the steel comes from the alloy, while brittleness comes
from the temper. Strong steels can be tempered for less brittleness,
which is what I think is happening in that bar. /opinion

--
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington

Yes but tempering takes away hardness(brittleness also)as well as strength. Strength and brittleness have a strong correlation.

Yes, it's a balancing act of magic, metallurgically speaking.

--
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington

On Sunday, 23 November 2014 20:18:45 UTC+5:30, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 21:16:20 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

On Sunday, 23 November 2014 00:08:08 UTC+5:30, Larry Jaques wrote:
On Sat, 22 Nov 2014 07:36:14 -0800 (PST), Sandarpan Mukherjee
wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/XMark-Commerci.../dp/B00JKM3BZU

The bar in the above link claims to have 240000 psi UTS and made out of a chrome-moly steel? Is it possible for such a high strength steel to be non-brittle enough for the application?

I'm more of a newb when it comes to metallurgy, but I think the
strength of the steel comes from the alloy, while brittleness comes
from the temper. Strong steels can be tempered for less brittleness,
which is what I think is happening in that bar. /opinion

--
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington

Yes but tempering takes away hardness(brittleness also)as well as strength. Strength and brittleness have a strong correlation.

Yes, it's a balancing act of magic, metallurgically speaking.

--
"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force.
Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
--George Washington

Yes. What I would love to know is though, what is the elongation % and reduction in area of the bars at the given strength. Something no manufacturer is willing to tell.

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 at 11:17:43 PM UTC+5:30, wrote:
As mentioned in the subject, I'm looking for steel suitable to be used to make an Olympic barbell, 2.2m long and 28mm in diameter. I'm torn between chrome-moly steel and spring steel. Again I'm not a metallurgist and know very little about these things. The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength. I'm also looking for decent machining characteristics so that I can put a knurl on it and cut grooves to attach sleeves.

Here are some steels I've thought about

SAE 4340 (Heat treated to the required Tensile strength)
SAE 4140
EN 47??

Thanks


I think we need to buy one branded bar and have to check chemical properties of shaft material..
As we have to do all cnc work or lathe work on Shaft like knurling,turning,grooving before heat treating
But
If we do heat treat bar can bend due to heat then after we need to remove bend on bend remove press machine
or
it take alot of time and money but if we complete this all process ..This bar ll be very easy to make in quantity.

As we know In India EN19 to EN 24 is available but its impossible to heat 7 ft shaft in oven...Oven should be very big.


For more info you can reply me.

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:27:52 -0700 (PDT), Padmanabh Jadhav
wrote:

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 at 11:17:43 PM UTC+5:30, wrote:
As mentioned in the subject, I'm looking for steel suitable to be used to make an Olympic barbell, 2.2m long and 28mm in diameter. I'm torn between chrome-moly steel and spring steel. Again I'm not a metallurgist and know very little about these things. The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength. I'm also looking for decent machining characteristics so that I can put a knurl on it and cut grooves to attach sleeves.

Here are some steels I've thought about

SAE 4340 (Heat treated to the required Tensile strength)
SAE 4140
EN 47??

Thanks


I think we need to buy one branded bar and have to check chemical properties of shaft material..
As we have to do all cnc work or lathe work on Shaft like knurling,turning,grooving before heat treating
But
If we do heat treat bar can bend due to heat then after we need to remove bend on bend remove press machine
or
it take alot of time and money but if we complete this all process ..This bar ll be very easy to make in quantity.

As we know In India EN19 to EN 24 is available but its impossible to heat 7 ft shaft in oven...Oven should be very big.


For more info you can reply me.
My knowledge is limited to bars I have purchased at yard sales to be
used as a source of raw material. These bars seem to be made erom the
nastiest material imaginable; the best way to machine them being to
use an angle grinder!

On Thu, 01 Apr 2021 00:04:07 -0400, Gerry
wrote:

On Tue, 30 Mar 2021 21:27:52 -0700 (PDT), Padmanabh Jadhav
wrote:

On Sunday, November 9, 2014 at 11:17:43 PM UTC+5:30, wrote:
As mentioned in the subject, I'm looking for steel suitable to be used to make an Olympic barbell, 2.2m long and 28mm in diameter. I'm torn between chrome-moly steel and spring steel. Again I'm not a metallurgist and know very little about these things. The bar will be at least 190000 psi tensile strength with 170000 psi yield strength. I'm also looking for decent machining characteristics so that I can put a knurl on it and cut grooves to attach sleeves.

Here are some steels I've thought about

SAE 4340 (Heat treated to the required Tensile strength)
SAE 4140
EN 47??

Thanks


I think we need to buy one branded bar and have to check chemical properties of shaft material..
As we have to do all cnc work or lathe work on Shaft like knurling,turning,grooving before heat treating
But
If we do heat treat bar can bend due to heat then after we need to remove bend on bend remove press machine
or
it take alot of time and money but if we complete this all process ..This bar ll be very easy to make in quantity.

As we know In India EN19 to EN 24 is available but its impossible to heat 7 ft shaft in oven...Oven should be very big.


For more info you can reply me.
My knowledge is limited to bars I have purchased at yard sales to be
used as a source of raw material. These bars seem to be made erom the
nastiest material imaginable; the best way to machine them being to
use an angle grinder!

A quick look at the olympic type bars available seem to show an
olympic style bar stated to be "120,000 lbs" tensile strength. If they
actually meant 120,000 lbs/inch square then 4140 (normalized at 810
degrees C) will have a tensile strength of 147,938 psi and 4140
annealed is about 94,000 psi. So 4140 should work.

Companies sell heat treated bar stock
https://www.specialtysteel.com/alloy...-heat-treated/
for example sells 4140 hot rolled with Brinnell of 269/341BHN and a
tensile strength of 156,000 psi. Brinnell Hardness 271 = RC 28.8 and
342 = RC 26.6

--
Cheers,

John B.