"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

Harold

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?


Don't quote me on this.

But my understanding is that the steel is coated with nickel. And the
chrome adheres to the nickel.

But most of my chrome knowledge comes from watching American Chopper.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in
message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that
this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is
true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal
working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered
with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust
their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?


Don't quote me on this.

But my understanding is that the steel is coated with nickel. And the
chrome adheres to the nickel.

But most of my chrome knowledge comes from watching American Chopper.

High-volume jobs, like old car bumpers, had a flash plating of nickel; a
thick plating of copper; a thin layer of nickel; and then the chrome.

I don't remember what the functions were, exactly, but nickel gets better
adhesion to steel than either copper or chromium. One function of copper is
to fill in imperfections.

That's a decorative chrome job. Hard-chrome plating of bearing surfaces (the
"hard" part really just means "thick") is done without the copper, and,
sometimes, without the nickel.

I knew this stuff cold 25 years ago. Sorry, the memory is going. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
snip-----

I don't remember what the functions were, exactly, but nickel gets better
adhesion to steel than either copper or chromium. One function of copper
is
to fill in imperfections.

Yep! As I understand it, the copper is applied heavily to permit the rapid
removal of imperfections through buffing, so the finished product has a
nice smooth finish without pits and other imperfections. That part of the
process is called coloring, as I recall.

That's a decorative chrome job. Hard-chrome plating of bearing surfaces
(the
"hard" part really just means "thick") is done without the copper, and,
sometimes, without the nickel.

I think nickel has no part of hard chrome plating. None I've ever had done
had any chrome as a base. It's not necessary. Could be wrong, however.

I knew this stuff cold 25 years ago. Sorry, the memory is going. d8-)

Chuckle. My memory is the second shortest thing I have these days.

Harold

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal working
forum would be such an expert either.

One need not be an expert to know and understand about hydrogen
embrittlement. Having worked in the aero-space industry as a manufacturer
that provides articles built to specifications, all of which must be
certified as such, will usually get your attention-----as it did mine.


But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

Chuckle!

I don't have a problem with the attitude, but is it true, or just another
housewife's tale? Dunno-----maybe it's like cheap jewelry that's plated a
few millionths thick with pure gold. They don't usually do that to good
quality jewelry.

Some people swear it's unlucky to open an umbrella in your house, too.
Keep an eye on that black cat.


Harold

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:17:45 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in
message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that
this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is
true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal
working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered
with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust
their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?


Don't quote me on this.

But my understanding is that the steel is coated with nickel. And the
chrome adheres to the nickel.

But most of my chrome knowledge comes from watching American Chopper.

High-volume jobs, like old car bumpers, had a flash plating of nickel; a
thick plating of copper; a thin layer of nickel; and then the chrome.

I don't remember what the functions were, exactly, but nickel gets better
adhesion to steel than either copper or chromium. One function of copper is
to fill in imperfections.

That's a decorative chrome job. Hard-chrome plating of bearing surfaces (the
"hard" part really just means "thick") is done without the copper, and,
sometimes, without the nickel.

I knew this stuff cold 25 years ago. Sorry, the memory is going. d8-)

Hah! Cheap and pretty. Sounds about right.

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

Eleiko barbells are of poor quality because they are chromed.

http://www.eleikosport.se/products_show.asp?CatID=8

"Nameless" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

Eleiko barbells are of poor quality because they are chromed.

http://www.eleikosport.se/products_show.asp?CatID=8

Eleiko is the world standard in barbells, AFAIK, so the statement doesn't
universally apply. But for the equipment most of us can afford, black oxide
seems to be a better choice as opposed to cheap chrome.

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

There are a LOT of different types of "chrome" plating.

What most folks see as Chrome plating is AKA Triple Chrome Plating. It
is a layered process. The part is ground and buffed to a high polish.
However this surface may still have small imperfections. So it is plated
with a layer of copper. This copper does two things, one it fills the
imperfections and it conducts electricity better than the steel, both of
which gives you a better and more even layer of plating. The part is
then buffed again to a very high polish. (ANY imperfections must be
taken out NOW) then the part is cleaned and plated in a nickel bath.
Then it is buffed again and finally plated with a very thin chromium
layer. The chromium layer is for wear resistance, it is the nickel that
makes the finish bright and shiny. It wears pretty well BUT the
copper/steel interface area is very fragile, any oil/rust or other
contaminant will cause plating failure.

Then you have "hard chroming" That is an entirely different process. In
HC you polish the part to a finished size smaller than required and then
plate chromium onto the part until it is built up over the required
size, then ground and polished back to the correct spec.

"Flashed" chrome is another different process that is done in a vacuum
chamber and is basically vacuum deposited onto a surface that either
doesn't conduct electricity or has a complex shape that plating in a
tank cannot handle. (tight interior corners are hard to plate due to
faradaic rejection in the tight angles. (same problem with powder coat
in tight areas)

Hydrogen embrittlement is a real problem in high strength materials
(steel, aluminum alloy,titanium alloys), subjected to high loading
(suspension parts, stressed bars). The plating currents cause the
hydrogen to be absorbed into the material and this weakens it. It is
possible to correct the problem though. You need to follow each step of
plating with a bake in the oven (375-450 depending on HRc of the steel)
to remove the hydrogen from the item.




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"ATP*" wrote in message ...

"Nameless" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal
working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered
with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust
their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

Eleiko barbells are of poor quality because they are chromed.

http://www.eleikosport.se/products_show.asp?CatID=8

Eleiko is the world standard in barbells, AFAIK, so the statement doesn't
universally apply. But for the equipment most of us can afford, black
oxide seems to be a better choice as opposed to cheap chrome.
Thank you. Again, we are talking about cheap stuff. As I stated in a
previous post, it is hard to do a good job on chrome on gym equipment. I
didn't say it was impossible. But it ain't cheap.

Therefore, the stuff that us mere mortals can afford. Go with the black
oxide.

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Nameless" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in
message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that
this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is
true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal
working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered
with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust
their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

Eleiko barbells are of poor quality because they are chromed.

http://www.eleikosport.se/products_show.asp?CatID=8

Eleiko is the world standard in barbells, AFAIK, so the statement
doesn't
universally apply. But for the equipment most of us can afford, black
oxide seems to be a better choice as opposed to cheap chrome.
Thank you. Again, we are talking about cheap stuff. As I stated in a
previous post, it is hard to do a good job on chrome on gym equipment. I
didn't say it was impossible. But it ain't cheap.

Therefore, the stuff that us mere mortals can afford. Go with the black
oxide.

That doesn't solve the problem. Black oxide, properly applied, also
introduces hydrogen. Heat treated items must be roasted after the
process, no differently from chrome plating.

Harold

"Steve W." wrote in message
...

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike Lane

There are a LOT of different types of "chrome" plating.

What most folks see as Chrome plating is AKA Triple Chrome Plating. It
is a layered process. The part is ground and buffed to a high polish.
However this surface may still have small imperfections. So it is plated
with a layer of copper. This copper does two things, one it fills the
imperfections and it conducts electricity better than the steel, both of
which gives you a better and more even layer of plating. The part is
then buffed again to a very high polish. (ANY imperfections must be
taken out NOW) then the part is cleaned and plated in a nickel bath.
Then it is buffed again and finally plated with a very thin chromium
layer. The chromium layer is for wear resistance, it is the nickel that
makes the finish bright and shiny. It wears pretty well BUT the
copper/steel interface area is very fragile, any oil/rust or other
contaminant will cause plating failure.

Then you have "hard chroming" That is an entirely different process. In
HC you polish the part to a finished size smaller than required and then
plate chromium onto the part until it is built up over the required
size, then ground and polished back to the correct spec.

"Flashed" chrome is another different process that is done in a vacuum
chamber and is basically vacuum deposited onto a surface that either
doesn't conduct electricity or has a complex shape that plating in a
tank cannot handle. (tight interior corners are hard to plate due to
faradaic rejection in the tight angles. (same problem with powder coat
in tight areas)

Hydrogen embrittlement is a real problem in high strength materials
(steel, aluminum alloy,titanium alloys), subjected to high loading
(suspension parts, stressed bars). The plating currents cause the
hydrogen to be absorbed into the material and this weakens it. It is
possible to correct the problem though. You need to follow each step of
plating with a bake in the oven (375-450 depending on HRc of the steel)
to remove the hydrogen from the item.

So it's the same problem that may occur when using an electrolytic process
to derust?

"Steve W." wrote in message
...

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


snipped

What most folks see as Chrome plating is AKA Triple Chrome Plating. It
is a layered process. The part is ground and buffed to a high polish.
However this surface may still have small imperfections. So it is plated
with a layer of copper. This copper does two things, one it fills the
imperfections and it conducts electricity better than the steel, both of
which gives you a better and more even layer of plating. The part is
then buffed again to a very high polish. (ANY imperfections must be
taken out NOW) then the part is cleaned and plated in a nickel bath.
Then it is buffed again and finally plated with a very thin chromium
layer. The chromium layer is for wear resistance, it is the nickel that
makes the finish bright and shiny. It wears pretty well BUT the
copper/steel interface area is very fragile, any oil/rust or other
contaminant will cause plating failure.

Then you have "hard chroming" That is an entirely different process. In
HC you polish the part to a finished size smaller than required and then
plate chromium onto the part until it is built up over the required
size, then ground and polished back to the correct spec.

"Flashed" chrome is another different process that is done in a vacuum
chamber and is basically vacuum deposited onto a surface that either
doesn't conduct electricity or has a complex shape that plating in a
tank cannot handle. (tight interior corners are hard to plate due to
faradaic rejection in the tight angles. (same problem with powder coat
in tight areas)

Hydrogen embrittlement is a real problem in high strength materials
(steel, aluminum alloy,titanium alloys), subjected to high loading
(suspension parts, stressed bars). The plating currents cause the
hydrogen to be absorbed into the material and this weakens it. It is
possible to correct the problem though. You need to follow each step of
plating with a bake in the oven (375-450 depending on HRc of the steel)
to remove the hydrogen from the item.

Isn't the steel nickel plated prior to the copper? (Xposted to a real metals
group)

"John" wrote in message
...
"Steve W." wrote in message
...

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


snipped

What most folks see as Chrome plating is AKA Triple Chrome Plating.
It
is a layered process. The part is ground and buffed to a high
polish.
However this surface may still have small imperfections. So it is
plated
with a layer of copper. This copper does two things, one it fills
the
imperfections and it conducts electricity better than the steel,
both of
which gives you a better and more even layer of plating. The part is
then buffed again to a very high polish. (ANY imperfections must be
taken out NOW) then the part is cleaned and plated in a nickel bath.
Then it is buffed again and finally plated with a very thin chromium
layer. The chromium layer is for wear resistance, it is the nickel
that
makes the finish bright and shiny. It wears pretty well BUT the
copper/steel interface area is very fragile, any oil/rust or other
contaminant will cause plating failure.

Then you have "hard chroming" That is an entirely different process.
In
HC you polish the part to a finished size smaller than required and
then
plate chromium onto the part until it is built up over the required
size, then ground and polished back to the correct spec.

"Flashed" chrome is another different process that is done in a
vacuum
chamber and is basically vacuum deposited onto a surface that either
doesn't conduct electricity or has a complex shape that plating in a
tank cannot handle. (tight interior corners are hard to plate due to
faradaic rejection in the tight angles. (same problem with powder
coat
in tight areas)

Hydrogen embrittlement is a real problem in high strength materials
(steel, aluminum alloy,titanium alloys), subjected to high loading
(suspension parts, stressed bars). The plating currents cause the
hydrogen to be absorbed into the material and this weakens it. It is
possible to correct the problem though. You need to follow each step
of
plating with a bake in the oven (375-450 depending on HRc of the
steel)
to remove the hydrogen from the item.

Isn't the steel nickel plated prior to the copper? (Xposted to a real
metals
group)


Nope. Polish - Copper plate, Polish again - Nickel plate, Polish
again - Chromium plate.



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"ATP*" wrote in message
...

"Steve W." wrote in message
...

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just
happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to
wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And
oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to
be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating
that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?

-----------
Proton Soup

"Thanks for noticing that I didn't actually say anything." - Mike
Lane

There are a LOT of different types of "chrome" plating.

What most folks see as Chrome plating is AKA Triple Chrome Plating.
It
is a layered process. The part is ground and buffed to a high
polish.
However this surface may still have small imperfections. So it is
plated
with a layer of copper. This copper does two things, one it fills
the
imperfections and it conducts electricity better than the steel,
both of
which gives you a better and more even layer of plating. The part is
then buffed again to a very high polish. (ANY imperfections must be
taken out NOW) then the part is cleaned and plated in a nickel bath.
Then it is buffed again and finally plated with a very thin chromium
layer. The chromium layer is for wear resistance, it is the nickel
that
makes the finish bright and shiny. It wears pretty well BUT the
copper/steel interface area is very fragile, any oil/rust or other
contaminant will cause plating failure.

Then you have "hard chroming" That is an entirely different process.
In
HC you polish the part to a finished size smaller than required and
then
plate chromium onto the part until it is built up over the required
size, then ground and polished back to the correct spec.

"Flashed" chrome is another different process that is done in a
vacuum
chamber and is basically vacuum deposited onto a surface that either
doesn't conduct electricity or has a complex shape that plating in a
tank cannot handle. (tight interior corners are hard to plate due to
faradaic rejection in the tight angles. (same problem with powder
coat
in tight areas)

Hydrogen embrittlement is a real problem in high strength materials
(steel, aluminum alloy,titanium alloys), subjected to high loading
(suspension parts, stressed bars). The plating currents cause the
hydrogen to be absorbed into the material and this weakens it. It is
possible to correct the problem though. You need to follow each step
of
plating with a bake in the oven (375-450 depending on HRc of the
steel)
to remove the hydrogen from the item.

So it's the same problem that may occur when using an electrolytic
process
to derust?


Yup, same problem. Only difference is that it should take longer in a
derusting bath since you usually don't run a real high current like you
do in plating.



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"Steve W." wrote in message
...
snip-----

The plating currents cause the
hydrogen to be absorbed into the material and this weakens it.

That's not exactly the mechanics of how it works. The plating current
creates hydrogen and oxygen through hydrolysis. The base metals have an
affinity for hydrogen, and absorbs it, which they would do, even without a
current being applied. The hydrogen is believed to interfere with the
flow and slip of lattice plains when under stress, causing the metal to
break instead of yield. As you stated, a prolonged roast at the proper
temperature tends to eliminate the hydrogen. According to my source, which
was published in '74, hydrogen embrittlement was not well understood. It
most likely is now.

Harold

On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 17:17:45 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Lee Michaels" wrote in message
...

"Proton Soup" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 20 Feb 2005 14:54:51 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:


"Harold and Susan Vordos" wrote in message
...

"Ignoramus29737" wrote in
message
...
snip--------

[the article above is a PDF file from a barbell manufacturer that
claims, among other things, that chroming a barbell causes "hydrogen
embrittlement"].

I think that there is a possibility that the article is not true. He
is saying that a relatively quick process of chroming is going to
affect deep layers of steel inside the handle. I am doubtful that
this
is indeed the case. I am xposting to rec.crafts.metalworking to see
what they say.

i

That tends to be a problem only for heat treated items, but it is
true.
Hydrogen embrittlement can be a serious problem under that condition.

I am no expert in these matters. And I don't know who at the metal
working
forum would be such an expert either.

But as someone who has worked extensively with small gym equipment
manufacturers, the universal truth by this group is that bars covered
with
chrome are of low quality. They feel that way for a reason. I trust
their
judgement. This was long before I heard of hydrogen embrittlement.

While we're on the subject of chromed bars, I've got one (just happens
ot be for standard sized weights), and the chrome is starting to wear
away where the clips to hold the weights slide on and off. And oddly
enough (to me at least), the metal underneath the chrome appears to be
copper, not steel. Now I'm pretty damn sure the bar isn't solid
copper (it'd be too expensive and bendy), so it must be a plating that
is applied before the chrome. But why? Is it to help the chrome
better adhere (decent chrome job, btw, no flaking) or some other
purpose, like limiting the aforementioned hydrogen embrittlement?


Don't quote me on this.

But my understanding is that the steel is coated with nickel. And the
chrome adheres to the nickel.

But most of my chrome knowledge comes from watching American Chopper.

High-volume jobs, like old car bumpers, had a flash plating of nickel; a
thick plating of copper; a thin layer of nickel; and then the chrome.

I don't remember what the functions were, exactly, but nickel gets better
adhesion to steel than either copper or chromium. One function of copper is
to fill in imperfections.

That's a decorative chrome job. Hard-chrome plating of bearing surfaces (the
"hard" part really just means "thick") is done without the copper, and,
sometimes, without the nickel.

I knew this stuff cold 25 years ago. Sorry, the memory is going. d8-)

I bought a cheap weight machine and (1") barbell set last summer. The
ends of the barbell (where they were center drilled) show the copper
plating. The weight machine has diamond pattern steel wear plates
where the barbell rests are attached. The chrome plating has come off
the wear plates in large sheets, leaving the copper plating exposed.
It doesn't look pretty, but then neither do I.

BTW, the rubber grips on the cheap dumbell bars kept collapsing when I
screwed the retaining nuts on. I cut the grips off, cut a 1/8 x 1/8
groove at the center of each dumbell, cut & faced some pieces of 1"
black iron pipe to my grip length, and tapped them at three places
around their centers for 6-32 threads. I slipped the pipe over the
dumbell bars and ran screws through the pipe into the groove cut in
the dumbell bars. After I ground off the screw heads, the dumbells
were much improved. It helped that the cheap dumbell bars measured
just under 1" in thickness.

(I have large hands, so the increase in grip diameter was not an
issue.)

Regards,
Ed

"Ed Bailen" wrote in message
...

I bought a cheap weight machine and (1") barbell set last summer. The
ends of the barbell (where they were center drilled) show the copper
plating. The weight machine has diamond pattern steel wear plates
where the barbell rests are attached. The chrome plating has come off
the wear plates in large sheets, leaving the copper plating exposed.
It doesn't look pretty, but then neither do I.

BTW, the rubber grips on the cheap dumbell bars kept collapsing when I
screwed the retaining nuts on. I cut the grips off, cut a 1/8 x 1/8
groove at the center of each dumbell, cut & faced some pieces of 1"
black iron pipe to my grip length, and tapped them at three places
around their centers for 6-32 threads. I slipped the pipe over the
dumbell bars and ran screws through the pipe into the groove cut in
the dumbell bars. After I ground off the screw heads, the dumbells
were much improved. It helped that the cheap dumbell bars measured
just under 1" in thickness.

(I have large hands, so the increase in grip diameter was not an
issue.)

Regards,
Ed

It sounds like you've made some improvements to it. I'll bet you, or many of
the people here, could make a much better set than you can buy for any
reasonable amount of money.

--
Ed Huntress