A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

wrote in message
...
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday
with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The
welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it
is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is
now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he
wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his
employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

You could look into turning it on with a Zero Crossing Relay.
http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Newsle...ng%20types.pdf
Can you check the voltage, current and power fector with a scope?

-jsw

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:10:08 -0700, wrote:

A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
==============
How is this his problem? Why should he pay to fix a problem
that belongs to the electric company?


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:58:22 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:10:08 -0700, wrote:

A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
==============
How is this his problem? Why should he pay to fix a problem
that belongs to the electric company?
I don't know. It may be he needs to talk to the state about it. But it
looks now like it is his problem. Do you have a solution?
Eric

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:17:56 -0700, etpm wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:58:22 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:10:08 -0700, wrote:

A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints from
neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear on
this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The solution
PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my friend the
problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder is an older
xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is rated at 11
kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the current spkies to
when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now wired for single
phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants to know is if he
ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would the current spikes
and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also don't know if there is
a way besides my friend paying thousands for PSE to install a new xmfr
on the pole for this situation to be ameliorated. He can't afford at
this time for a new welder with a softer start setting. Besides, the
hard fast start means his employee can make more welds. Any help would
be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
==============
How is this his problem? Why should he pay to fix a problem that
belongs to the electric company?
I don't know. It may be he needs to talk to the state about it. But it
looks now like it is his problem. Do you have a solution?
Eric

It depends on the contract that he signed for power, or the regulations
in your state.

There's a good chance that anyone using power beyond normal residential
use is expected to pay for any necessary upgrades -- it varies by state,
and I wouldn't even have a clue as to what the rules are in Oregon.

For that matter, in most places if you want power run to your house
you've got to pay for it, by the foot.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:10:08 -0700, etpm wrote:

A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with an
electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints from
neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear on this,
but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The solution PSE is
proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my friend the problem is
because of the hard starting welder. The welder is an older xmfr type
machine with lots of copper. At full load it is rated at 11 kw, which is
about 46 amps. But I don't know what the current spkies to when he first
steps on the pedal. The machine is now wired for single phase but can be
wired for three phase. What he wants to know is if he ran the welder
from a Rotary Phase Converter would the current spikes and voltage drops
be less. I don't know. I also don't know if there is a way besides my
friend paying thousands for PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for
this situation to be ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new
welder with a softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means
his employee can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

A rotary phase converter may help, but I wouldn't expect it to cut the
problem by more than a factor of 2/3, and very possibly not even that.
I'm just guessing, though.

There may be soft-start add-on kits out there that will be cheaper than
either a transformer or a new welder.

If he's got an established business he may be able to get a business
loan. He'd have to be willing to get into debt, and have enough proof of
income to swing it, though.

--
www.wescottdesign.com

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:17:56 -0700, wrote:

==============
How is this his problem? Why should he pay to fix a problem
that belongs to the electric company?
I don't know. It may be he needs to talk to the state about it. But it
looks now like it is his problem. Do you have a solution?
Eric
=================
As this appears to be a surge problem, it might be possible
to rig up a large three phase motor with a HEAVY flywheel as
a rotary phase converter to power the welder.


--
Unka' George

"Gold is the money of kings,
silver is the money of gentlemen,
barter is the money of peasants,
but debt is the money of slaves"

-Norm Franz, "Money and Wealth in the New Millenium"

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:17:56 -0700, wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 12:58:22 -0500, F. George McDuffee
wrote:

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 10:10:08 -0700, wrote:

A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
==============
How is this his problem? Why should he pay to fix a problem
that belongs to the electric company?
I don't know. It may be he needs to talk to the state about it. But it
looks now like it is his problem. Do you have a solution?
Eric

You might look into power factor correction caps for the welder.
There's plenty of misinformation about this online without my adding
to it, but my understanding is that a welder with PF correction will
draw more current at idle, but less under load. Not sure what it'll
do, if anything, about surges.

Re who's responsible, in my area there are certain single phase loads
that the power company can force you to remove if they cause problems.
Single phase motors larger than 5HP, for example.

--
Ned Simmons

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:47:56 PM UTC-4, Ned Simmons wrote:


You might look into power factor correction caps for the welder.
There's plenty of misinformation about this online without my adding
to it, but my understanding is that a welder with PF correction will
draw more current at idle, but less under load. Not sure what it'll
do, if anything, about surges.

I think your understanding is wrong. With power factor correction the current at idle will be less. Under load it will also be less, but the difference may be almost unmeasureable.

But you are right. Correcting the power factor may make things enough better that he will not have to do anything else.

Dan

-
Ned Simmons

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 1:36:31 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

.. What he
wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his
employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

You could look into turning it on with a Zero Crossing Relay.
http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Newsle...ng%20types.pdf
Can you check the voltage, current and power fector with a scope?

-jsw

Not a good idea. This is from Wiki.

Transformers

When a transformer is first energized, a transient current up to 10 to 15 times larger than the rated transformer current can flow for several cycles. Toroidal transformers, using less copper for the same power handling, can have up to 60 times inrush to running current. Worst case inrush happens when the primary winding is connected at an instant around the zero-crossing of the primary voltage, (which for a pure inductance would be the current maximum in the AC cycle) and if the polarity of the voltage half cycle has the same polarity as the remnance in the iron core has. (The magnetic remanence was left high from a preceding half cycle). Unless the windings and core are sized to normally never exceed 50% of saturation, (and in an efficient transformer they never are, such a construction would be overly heavy and inefficient) then during such a start up the core will be saturated. This can also be expressed as the remnant magnetism in normal operation is nearly as high as the saturation magnetism at the "knee" of the hysteresis loop. Once the core saturates however, the winding inductance appears greatly reduced, and only the resistance of the primary side windings and the impedance of the power line are limiting the current. As saturation occurs for part half cycles only, harmonic rich waveforms can be generated, and can cause problems to other equipment.
For large transformers with low winding resistance and high inductance, these inrush currents can last for several seconds until the transient has died away (decay time proportional to ~XL/R)and the regular AC equilibrium is established. To avoid magnetic inrush, only for transformers with an air gap in the core, the inductive load needs to be synchronously connected near a supply voltage peak, in contrast with the zero voltage switching which is desirable to minimize sharp edged current transients with resistive loads such as high power heaters. But for toroidal transformers only a premagnetising procedure before switching on allows to start those transformers without any inrush current peak.

I would contact the welder manufacturer and ask them if they know of any good solutions. And maybe contact the power company and ask them the same question.
He can't be the only one with that problem.

Dan

Eric - a "soft start" on/off switch might be a possible cure. In concept
it turns on the current when the cycle is nearly over and then turns of as
the current passes zero. On the next cycle the current is turned a little
earlier. After ?? cycles full power is turned on for all cycles.
Mouser Electronics shows a 40 amp triac, which is the "switch" in a
soft start device, for roughly $2. Probably need a micro controller to
control the triac - $.50, along with a pc board & some caps & a transistor
or 2. Then a "heat sink" and, probably, a healthy fan.
All told, the cost isn't much so someone has probably built such a
gadget for sale as an "add on". If you can't find one, look for someone to
build it and offer to do some testing for him.

Hul

wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

On 30/10/14 22:49, Hul Tytus wrote:
Eric - a "soft start" on/off switch might be a possible cure. In concept
it turns on the current when the cycle is nearly over and then turns of as
the current passes zero. On the next cycle the current is turned a little
earlier. After ?? cycles full power is turned on for all cycles.
Mouser Electronics shows a 40 amp triac, which is the "switch" in a
soft start device, for roughly $2. Probably need a micro controller to
control the triac - $.50, along with a pc board & some caps & a transistor
or 2. Then a "heat sink" and, probably, a healthy fan.
All told, the cost isn't much so someone has probably built such a
gadget for sale as an "add on". If you can't find one, look for someone to
build it and offer to do some testing for him.

Hul

wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
Sounds like a phase angle controller powering a transformer which while
it works, I've done it on a Xformer for a TIG supply to ramp up/down the
current, is electrically very noisy as you end up potentially putting
maximum AC voltage into the transformer suddenly rather than the normal
build up from zero so high transient currents. I didn't see the effect
on the flourescent lights as I was welding but when it was pointed out
to me and I had a look they did significantly flicker during the
transition phase from 0 to full on power. No neighbours complained and I
checked with one about HF interference with their TV and no problems.
Subsequently I have gone to an inverter TIG and at higher currents
upsets the ADSL modem in the house but I don't know of anyone else
having any issues. Likely I should fit a suitable filter at the welder
supply but I'm the only one with the issue with losing ADSL connection
when welding at higher currents. I think a soft start might work in a
more friendly manner.

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:01:34 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 1:36:31 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

. What he
wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his
employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

You could look into turning it on with a Zero Crossing Relay.
http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Newsle...ng%20types.pdf
Can you check the voltage, current and power fector with a scope?

-jsw

Not a good idea. This is from Wiki.

Transformers

When a transformer is first energized, a transient current up to 10 to 15 times larger than the rated transformer current can flow for several cycles. Toroidal transformers, using less copper for the same power handling, can have up to 60 times inrush to running current. Worst case inrush happens when the primary winding is connected at an instant around the zero-crossing of the primary voltage, (which for a pure inductance would be the current maximum in the AC cycle) and if the polarity of the voltage half cycle has the same polarity as the remnance in the iron core has. (The magnetic remanence was left high from a preceding half cycle). Unless the windings and core are sized to normally never exceed 50% of saturation, (and in an efficient transformer they never are, such a construction would be overly heavy and inefficient) then during such a start up the core will be saturated. This can also be expressed as the remnant magnetism in normal operation is nearly as high as the
saturation magnetism at the "knee" of the hysteresis loop. Once the core saturates however, the winding inductance appears greatly reduced, and only the resistance of the primary side windings and the impedance of the power line are limiting the current. As saturation occurs for part half cycles only, harmonic rich waveforms can be generated, and can cause problems to other equipment.
For large transformers with low winding resistance and high inductance, these inrush currents can last for several seconds until the transient has died away (decay time proportional to ~XL/R)and the regular AC equilibrium is established. To avoid magnetic inrush, only for transformers with an air gap in the core, the inductive load needs to be synchronously connected near a supply voltage peak, in contrast with the zero voltage switching which is desirable to minimize sharp edged current transients with resistive loads such as high power heaters. But for toroidal transformers only a premagnetising procedure before switching on allows to start those transformers without any inrush current peak.

I would contact the welder manufacturer and ask them if they know of any good solutions. And maybe contact the power company and ask them the same question.
He can't be the only one with that problem.

Dan
Jim,
I ehm not sure how to measure power fector with scope. Maybe Boris,
he know. Ahl esk him. Actually, how does one go about measuring power
factor with a TEK 465B scope?
Thanks,
Eric

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 14:42:45 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 3:47:56 PM UTC-4, Ned Simmons wrote:


You might look into power factor correction caps for the welder.
There's plenty of misinformation about this online without my adding
to it, but my understanding is that a welder with PF correction will
draw more current at idle, but less under load. Not sure what it'll
do, if anything, about surges.

I think your understanding is wrong. With power factor correction the current at idle will be less. Under load it will also be less, but the difference may be almost unmeasureable.

See the table on page 12 of this Miller manual:
http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o353u_mil.pdf

Idle current with PFC is over 10x the current without PFC.


--
Ned Simmons

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 15:01:34 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 1:36:31 PM UTC-4, Jim Wilkins wrote:

. What he
wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter
would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I
also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands
for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with
a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his
employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

You could look into turning it on with a Zero Crossing Relay.
http://www.crydom.com/en/Tech/Newsle...ng%20types.pdf
Can you check the voltage, current and power fector with a scope?

-jsw

Not a good idea. This is from Wiki.

Transformers

When a transformer is first energized, a transient current up to 10
to 15 times larger than the rated transformer current can flow for
several cycles. Toroidal transformers, using less copper for the
same power handling, can have up to 60 times inrush to running
current. Worst case inrush happens when the primary winding is
connected at an instant around the zero-crossing of the primary
voltage, (which for a pure inductance would be the current maximum
in the AC cycle) and if the polarity of the voltage half cycle has
the same polarity as the remnance in the iron core has. (The
magnetic remanence was left high from a preceding half cycle).
Unless the windings and core are sized to normally never exceed 50%
of saturation, (and in an efficient transformer they never are, such
a construction would be overly heavy and inefficient) then during
such a start up the core will be saturated. This can also be
expressed as the remnant magnetism in normal operation is nearly as
high as the
saturation magnetism at the "knee" of the hysteresis loop. Once the
core saturates however, the winding inductance appears greatly
reduced, and only the resistance of the primary side windings and
the impedance of the power line are limiting the current. As
saturation occurs for part half cycles only, harmonic rich waveforms
can be generated, and can cause problems to other equipment.
For large transformers with low winding resistance and high
inductance, these inrush currents can last for several seconds until
the transient has died away (decay time proportional to ~XL/R)and
the regular AC equilibrium is established. To avoid magnetic inrush,
only for transformers with an air gap in the core, the inductive
load needs to be synchronously connected near a supply voltage peak,
in contrast with the zero voltage switching which is desirable to
minimize sharp edged current transients with resistive loads such as
high power heaters. But for toroidal transformers only a
premagnetising procedure before switching on allows to start those
transformers without any inrush current peak.

I would contact the welder manufacturer and ask them if they know of
any good solutions. And maybe contact the power company and ask
them the same question.
He can't be the only one with that problem.

Dan
Jim,
I ehm not sure how to measure power fector with scope. Maybe Boris,
he know. Ahl esk him. Actually, how does one go about measuring
power
factor with a TEK 465B scope?
Thanks,
Eric

You need a current probe to see the phase difference between voltage
and current.
http://www.cappels.org/dproj/aciprob...rentProbe.html

-jsw

On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 22:49:20 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

Eric - a "soft start" on/off switch might be a possible cure. In concept
it turns on the current when the cycle is nearly over and then turns of as
the current passes zero. On the next cycle the current is turned a little
earlier. After ?? cycles full power is turned on for all cycles.
Mouser Electronics shows a 40 amp triac, which is the "switch" in a
soft start device, for roughly $2. Probably need a micro controller to
control the triac - $.50, along with a pc board & some caps & a transistor
or 2. Then a "heat sink" and, probably, a healthy fan.
All told, the cost isn't much so someone has probably built such a
gadget for sale as an "add on". If you can't find one, look for someone to
build it and offer to do some testing for him.

Hul

Greetings Hul,
Soft start may not be the ideal. When welding, if a soft start is
used, it takes longer to do the weld. This not only translates to
lower throughput it also frustrates the worker who wants to get as
many parts out the door as possible. I know that for me, as a
machinist, even when I worked for someone else, I hated stuff that
slowed me down. At the end of the day my pay would be the same but I,
like most folks, jest wanna git the job done. Thanks for your
suggestion though, it may be that even though not ideal in all
situations it will be the best solution. I will consider this when I
try to help my friend out. I had to use soft start on one of my CNC
machines in the past when the power available was just a little too
low. Fortunately for me I was able to adjust the spindle drive for a
softer start.
Cheers,
Eric
wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

"F. George McDuffee" wrote:

How is this his problem? Why should he pay to fix a problem
that belongs to the electric company?


Is it in a business zone? They may consider welding as light
industrial usage.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 7:58:06 PM UTC-4, Ned Simmons wrote:

I think your understanding is wrong. With power factor correction the current at idle will be less. Under load it will also be less, but the difference may be almost unmeasureable.

See the table on page 12 of this Miller manual:
http://www.millerwelds.com/om/o353u_mil.pdf

Idle current with PFC is over 10x the current without PFC.


--
Ned Simmons

I do not understand the Miller chart. On my own welder , I added PFC capacitors which reduced the idle current. Did not measure the current while welding, but my understanding of transformers makes me think that while welding the imaginary current would stay the same , but the real current would be much bigger. So the effect of power factor correction would be negligible while welding.

I looked for information on other welders but did not find any.

Dan

On 10/30/2014 10:10 AM, wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
I had to go look up the contract, but Pacific Power replaced a
residential shared transformer for me so I could have 200 amp service.
The transformer is shared by three residences. The others did not pay
anything.

My cost was $1550, total to the power company.

Your friend needs to get the power company to give him a firm number for
a transformer replacement.

Paul

wrote in message ...
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

Seems to me a rotary phase converter will act as a sort of buffer due to energy stored in it's spinning mass.

On Friday, October 31, 2014 12:23:52 AM UTC-4, Paul Drahn wrote:
On 10/30/2014 10:10 AM, wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
I had to go look up the contract, but Pacific Power replaced a
residential shared transformer for me so I could have 200 amp service.
The transformer is shared by three residences. The others did not pay
anything.

My cost was $1550, total to the power company.

Your friend needs to get the power company to give him a firm number for
a transformer replacement.

Its best to contact the welder manufacturer (if they are still around). They've dealt with this issue in his area before. The local power company might be giving you the more expensive route. Its in the welding manufacturer to give you the cheapest option (for service and other needed devices).

If that manufacturer is no longer around, contact a similar manufacturer of modern welders. Pretend like you are going to buy a new welder from them using the specs that you actually are on now. They'll probably tell you what additional devices you should install (any 60 amp breakers, xfmrs, sub-panels, converters, inverters, freq drives, etc...) in preparation for your purchase of one of their welder set-ups.

The welding manufacturer might give you the lowest cost for other needed devices/service not made by their welding manufacturing. They might even help to organize.

On Thursday, October 30, 2014 1:05:18 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see.
Thanks,
Eric

It sounds as if the problem is the voltage sagging. You need to see the graph. If the problem is that the voltage drops while he is welding, then a rotary converter will not help. A inverter welder will be more efficient and maybe would not cause the problem.

Dan

Paul Drahn wrote:

On 10/30/2014 10:10 AM, wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
I had to go look up the contract, but Pacific Power replaced a
residential shared transformer for me so I could have 200 amp service.
The transformer is shared by three residences. The others did not pay
anything.

My cost was $1550, total to the power company.

Your friend needs to get the power company to give him a firm number for
a transformer replacement.

Paul

A dedicated transformer for a business location with large instantaneous
loads is the right thing to do. If the friend's business is home based
(sounds like it) he should just pay a reasonable amount to fix the issue
before the neighbor's complaints go to the city and then zoning issues
might come into play.

On 11/2/2014 7:09 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Paul Drahn wrote:

On 10/30/2014 10:10 AM, wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
I had to go look up the contract, but Pacific Power replaced a
residential shared transformer for me so I could have 200 amp service.
The transformer is shared by three residences. The others did not pay
anything.

My cost was $1550, total to the power company.

Your friend needs to get the power company to give him a firm number for
a transformer replacement.

Paul

A dedicated transformer for a business location with large instantaneous
loads is the right thing to do. If the friend's business is home based
(sounds like it) he should just pay a reasonable amount to fix the issue
before the neighbor's complaints go to the city and then zoning issues
might come into play.

There's a lot of missing info here.
First place I'd go is the engineering department of the power company.
Took me several tries to get an operator willing to connect me to
engineering,
but once I got there, they were extremely cooperative.

My initial position would be,"I have x-AMP service. I'm using less than
that. It's the power company's responsibility to supply me what I'm
paying for."

Anything that generates heat depends on POWER/WATTS supplied.
Drops in the power line voltage depend on AMPS delivered.
For a device with lousy power factor, like a welder, you may need
way more AMPS than you'd expect for that level of POWER/WATTS.
Some simple power factor correction may help that.
Stick a storage oscilloscope and current probe on it.

Transients are a different issue. I built a small spot welder from
a microwave oven transformer. There's considerable hysteresis in the
core as you move up and down the B-H curve.
If I turned off the current at the peak positive current, then turned
it back on at the peak negative voltage, I got a huge initial transformer
current spike. It's also possible to run the B-H curve
right off the end and saturate the core.
Constraining the turn on to zero voltage crossing
and the turn off at zero current crossing dramatically decreased that
spike and increased welding repeatability.

Eric - I'm guessing you're associating "soft start" with motors and the
long times inherent with heavy weight & limited horse power. I
checked the inductance of a 10 amp 120 volt transformer & it showed .5
henry. The time for 240 volts & 46 amps comes to .095 seconds. (t =
inductance * current / voltage).
Keep in mind that I am guessing on this, but if you can find an addon
"soft start" device with adjustable timing, it might be effective.
I'd like to hear the result, too.

Hul


wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 22:49:20 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

Eric - a "soft start" on/off switch might be a possible cure. In concept
it turns on the current when the cycle is nearly over and then turns of as
the current passes zero. On the next cycle the current is turned a little
earlier. After ?? cycles full power is turned on for all cycles.
Mouser Electronics shows a 40 amp triac, which is the "switch" in a
soft start device, for roughly $2. Probably need a micro controller to
control the triac - $.50, along with a pc board & some caps & a transistor
or 2. Then a "heat sink" and, probably, a healthy fan.
All told, the cost isn't much so someone has probably built such a
gadget for sale as an "add on". If you can't find one, look for someone to
build it and offer to do some testing for him.

Hul

Greetings Hul,
Soft start may not be the ideal. When welding, if a soft start is
used, it takes longer to do the weld. This not only translates to
lower throughput it also frustrates the worker who wants to get as
many parts out the door as possible. I know that for me, as a
machinist, even when I worked for someone else, I hated stuff that
slowed me down. At the end of the day my pay would be the same but I,
like most folks, jest wanna git the job done. Thanks for your
suggestion though, it may be that even though not ideal in all
situations it will be the best solution. I will consider this when I
try to help my friend out. I had to use soft start on one of my CNC
machines in the past when the power available was just a little too
low. Fortunately for me I was able to adjust the spindle drive for a
softer start.
Cheers,
Eric
wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

On Mon, 3 Nov 2014 16:14:15 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

Eric - I'm guessing you're associating "soft start" with motors and the
long times inherent with heavy weight & limited horse power. I
checked the inductance of a 10 amp 120 volt transformer & it showed .5
henry. The time for 240 volts & 46 amps comes to .095 seconds. (t =
inductance * current / voltage).
Keep in mind that I am guessing on this, but if you can find an addon
"soft start" device with adjustable timing, it might be effective.
I'd like to hear the result, too.

Hul


wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 22:49:20 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

Eric - a "soft start" on/off switch might be a possible cure. In concept
it turns on the current when the cycle is nearly over and then turns of as
the current passes zero. On the next cycle the current is turned a little
earlier. After ?? cycles full power is turned on for all cycles.
Mouser Electronics shows a 40 amp triac, which is the "switch" in a
soft start device, for roughly $2. Probably need a micro controller to
control the triac - $.50, along with a pc board & some caps & a transistor
or 2. Then a "heat sink" and, probably, a healthy fan.
All told, the cost isn't much so someone has probably built such a
gadget for sale as an "add on". If you can't find one, look for someone to
build it and offer to do some testing for him.

Hul

Greetings Hul,
Soft start may not be the ideal. When welding, if a soft start is
used, it takes longer to do the weld. This not only translates to
lower throughput it also frustrates the worker who wants to get as
many parts out the door as possible. I know that for me, as a
machinist, even when I worked for someone else, I hated stuff that
slowed me down. At the end of the day my pay would be the same but I,
like most folks, jest wanna git the job done. Thanks for your
suggestion though, it may be that even though not ideal in all
situations it will be the best solution. I will consider this when I
try to help my friend out. I had to use soft start on one of my CNC
machines in the past when the power available was just a little too
low. Fortunately for me I was able to adjust the spindle drive for a
softer start.
Cheers,
Eric
wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric
Greetings Hul,
Soft start on a welder takes longer than for a motor. This is an
adjustment on the welder itself. And even though it is pretty fast it
is not ideal. Especially when welding aluminum because you want the
metal to get hot as fast as possible. So the technique is to stomp on
the pedal all the way to get the maximum current. Then as soon as a
puddle starts to form the current is decreased. If the aluminum is
heated slowly too much if the heat spreads into the surrounding metal.
After several inches of welding in a localized area the work gets
really hot until it is too hot to handle. Heating the metal fast,
applying the filler fast, and getting off of the pedal makes for
higher throughput. Today my friend is emailing me the graph from the
power company so I will learn more and will post results here. I will
also post the results of the final fix, whatever it is.
Cheers,
Eric

On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 08:44:48 -0800, wrote:


Soft start on a welder takes longer than for a motor. This is an
adjustment on the welder itself. And even though it is pretty fast it
is not ideal. Especially when welding aluminum because you want the
metal to get hot as fast as possible. So the technique is to stomp on
the pedal all the way to get the maximum current. Then as soon as a
puddle starts to form the current is decreased. If the aluminum is
heated slowly too much if the heat spreads into the surrounding metal.
After several inches of welding in a localized area the work gets
really hot until it is too hot to handle. Heating the metal fast,
applying the filler fast, and getting off of the pedal makes for
higher throughput. Today my friend is emailing me the graph from the
power company so I will learn more and will post results here. I will
also post the results of the final fix, whatever it is.

Hi Eric.

IF you'd like to email me a copy of the chart ), I can
probably help you. I'm a retired engineer who spent most of his
career in the utility biz so I speak "utility-eze". Also I have a
little consultancy on power quality so I'm familiar with these types
of problems.

A welder can have two separate problems that can cause light flicker.
One is the magnetic core saturation inrush when the ON switch is
flipped. The cause has been explained elsewhere in this thread. The
other is due to the sudden application of load when the arc is struck.

Since the welder has soft starting for the arc, I suspect that the
problem is with core saturation when the welder is turned on. If
that's the problem (it will be glaring on the chart they provide),
there is a very easy and inexpensive solution. It involves
introducing some temporary resistance in series with the line voltage.
This limits the current for a few seconds until the transformer
stabilizes.

It involves a contactor suitable to handle the load, a resistor and a
time delay relay set to 2-3 seconds. Cost should be under $100. If
saturation inrush is the problem, I'll be happy to spec out the parts
needed.

The resistor is typically 2 or 3 stainless steel TIG rods bundled
together in parallel and connected to using split bolt electrical
connectors.. The resistor won't be in the circuit long enough to get
hot so it can be insulated with electrical tape or heat shrink tubing,
coiled up and it and the other parts placed in the welder.

The contactor is connected in parallel with the resistor. The time
delay relay is connected in series with the contactor coil and both
ends are connected to the line downstream of the "on" switch.

When the "on" switch is flipped, the contactor is de-energized and the
resistor is in series with the transformer, limiting the saturation
current. In two or three seconds, the time delay relay trips,
energizing the contactor and shorting the resistor. Normal full power
is applied to the now-stabilized transformer.

On the regulatory side, your friend has the law on his side. There
are both FERC (federal energy regulatory commission) and ANSI specs on
power quality. If your friend has a 200 amp service then the utility
is required to supply 200 amps from a circuit stiff enough to limit
the voltage dip to, normally -5%. That much dip will cause slight
dimming of lights but not an annoying amount.

If the utility isn't meeting that requirement then they are obligated
to install a sufficiently large transformer and service drop to do so
and at their cost.

It is common to have the utility try to bluff the customer into paying
for the new apparatus. That is happening up here in this remote
mountain-top fishing resort. A number of people who have had weekend
cabins are now retiring and moving up here permanently. The
infrastructure can't handle the addition of things like central air
conditioning. One transformer has (probably a record setting) 13
feeds attached to it.

The utility has thrown up roadblocks at every step of the way and it
looks like legal action may be necessary. But my neighbors will
ultimately win because they have law and regulation on their side.

If your friend's welder is drawing more than 200 amps during the
inrush period then the utility CAN force him to pay for remediation.
We'll know when we get the chart. If that's the case then the above
described inrush limiter is the inexpensive solution.

If it comes down to a ****ing contest, I have a spare Dranetz power
quality analyzer that I could loan you. That would give you hard data
to fight back with. Contact me off-line if it comes to that.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.fluxeon.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

In days gone by in line resistive units were inserted and when they
heated up, a bi-metal by-pass switch shorted it out. Current flowing
in the bi-metal (once tripped) kept it closed. Cut the current and the
bi-metal cools and the process starts all over. The IR drop limits the
current and also lowers the input voltage to the unit powering up.

Martin

On 11/3/2014 10:14 AM, Hul Tytus wrote:
Eric - I'm guessing you're associating "soft start" with motors and the
long times inherent with heavy weight & limited horse power. I
checked the inductance of a 10 amp 120 volt transformer & it showed .5
henry. The time for 240 volts & 46 amps comes to .095 seconds. (t =
inductance * current / voltage).
Keep in mind that I am guessing on this, but if you can find an addon
"soft start" device with adjustable timing, it might be effective.
I'd like to hear the result, too.

Hul


wrote:
On Thu, 30 Oct 2014 22:49:20 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

Eric - a "soft start" on/off switch might be a possible cure. In concept
it turns on the current when the cycle is nearly over and then turns of as
the current passes zero. On the next cycle the current is turned a little
earlier. After ?? cycles full power is turned on for all cycles.
Mouser Electronics shows a 40 amp triac, which is the "switch" in a
soft start device, for roughly $2. Probably need a micro controller to
control the triac - $.50, along with a pc board & some caps & a transistor
or 2. Then a "heat sink" and, probably, a healthy fan.
All told, the cost isn't much so someone has probably built such a
gadget for sale as an "add on". If you can't find one, look for someone to
build it and offer to do some testing for him.

Hul

Greetings Hul,
Soft start may not be the ideal. When welding, if a soft start is
used, it takes longer to do the weld. This not only translates to
lower throughput it also frustrates the worker who wants to get as
many parts out the door as possible. I know that for me, as a
machinist, even when I worked for someone else, I hated stuff that
slowed me down. At the end of the day my pay would be the same but I,
like most folks, jest wanna git the job done. Thanks for your
suggestion though, it may be that even though not ideal in all
situations it will be the best solution. I will consider this when I
try to help my friend out. I had to use soft start on one of my CNC
machines in the past when the power available was just a little too
low. Fortunately for me I was able to adjust the spindle drive for a
softer start.
Cheers,
Eric
wrote:
A friend of mine here on Whidbey Island has a welding business. It's
pretty new, only a few years now. Anyway, he called me yesterday with
an electrical problem. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) has had complaints
from neighbors about voltage spikes or drops, my friend wasn't clear
on this, but they showed him a graph which I have yet to see. The
solution PSE is proposing is a new xmfr at the pole. PSE told my
friend the problem is because of the hard starting welder. The welder
is an older xmfr type machine with lots of copper. At full load it is
rated at 11 kw, which is about 46 amps. But I don't know what the
current spkies to when he first steps on the pedal. The machine is now
wired for single phase but can be wired for three phase. What he wants
to know is if he ran the welder from a Rotary Phase Converter would
the current spikes and voltage drops be less. I don't know. I also
don't know if there is a way besides my friend paying thousands for
PSE to install a new xmfr on the pole for this situation to be
ameliorated. He can't afford at this time for a new welder with a
softer start setting. Besides, the hard fast start means his employee
can make more welds. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Eric

On Monday, November 3, 2014 2:44:52 PM UTC-5, Neon John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 08:44:48 -0800, wrote:

Soft start on a welder takes longer than for a motor. This is an
adjustment on the welder itself. And even though it is pretty fast it
is not ideal. Especially when welding aluminum because you want the
metal to get hot as fast as possible. So the technique is to stomp on
the pedal all the way to get the maximum current. Then as soon as a
puddle starts to form the current is decreased. If the aluminum is
heated slowly too much if the heat spreads into the surrounding metal.
After several inches of welding in a localized area the work gets
really hot until it is too hot to handle. Heating the metal fast,
applying the filler fast, and getting off of the pedal makes for
higher throughput. Today my friend is emailing me the graph from the
power company so I will learn more and will post results here. I will
also post the results of the final fix, whatever it is.

Hi Eric.

IF you'd like to email me a copy of the chart ), I can
probably help you. I'm a retired engineer who spent most of his
career in the utility biz so I speak "utility-eze". Also I have a
little consultancy on power quality so I'm familiar with these types
of problems.

A welder can have two separate problems that can cause light flicker.
One is the magnetic core saturation inrush when the ON switch is
flipped. The cause has been explained elsewhere in this thread. The
other is due to the sudden application of load when the arc is struck.

Since the welder has soft starting for the arc, I suspect that the
problem is with core saturation when the welder is turned on. If
that's the problem (it will be glaring on the chart they provide),
there is a very easy and inexpensive solution. It involves
introducing some temporary resistance in series with the line voltage.
This limits the current for a few seconds until the transformer
stabilizes.

It involves a contactor suitable to handle the load, a resistor and a
time delay relay set to 2-3 seconds. Cost should be under $100. If
saturation inrush is the problem, I'll be happy to spec out the parts
needed.

The resistor is typically 2 or 3 stainless steel TIG rods bundled
together in parallel and connected to using split bolt electrical
connectors.. The resistor won't be in the circuit long enough to get
hot so it can be insulated with electrical tape or heat shrink tubing,
coiled up and it and the other parts placed in the welder.

The contactor is connected in parallel with the resistor. The time
delay relay is connected in series with the contactor coil and both
ends are connected to the line downstream of the "on" switch.

When the "on" switch is flipped, the contactor is de-energized and the
resistor is in series with the transformer, limiting the saturation
current. In two or three seconds, the time delay relay trips,
energizing the contactor and shorting the resistor. Normal full power
is applied to the now-stabilized transformer.

On the regulatory side, your friend has the law on his side. There
are both FERC (federal energy regulatory commission) and ANSI specs on
power quality. If your friend has a 200 amp service then the utility
is required to supply 200 amps from a circuit stiff enough to limit
the voltage dip to, normally -5%. That much dip will cause slight
dimming of lights but not an annoying amount.

If the utility isn't meeting that requirement then they are obligated
to install a sufficiently large transformer and service drop to do so
and at their cost.

It is common to have the utility try to bluff the customer into paying
for the new apparatus. That is happening up here in this remote
mountain-top fishing resort. A number of people who have had weekend
cabins are now retiring and moving up here permanently. The
infrastructure can't handle the addition of things like central air
conditioning. One transformer has (probably a record setting) 13
feeds attached to it.


The utility has thrown up roadblocks at every step of the way and it


looks like legal action may be necessary. But my neighbors will
ultimately win because they have law and regulation on their side.

In any event though, the power plant folks probably are thinking something like ... with all due respect of course, "city slicker" controlled public utilities and their associates are tempted to look down on rural areas and their needs. So the big shots want to make sure that a lot of people gathering in new areas out will actually stay there permanently - certainly - before the power plant invests in all of this new service out there.
So don't be surprised if you finally have to make do with cheaper options.

On Monday, November 3, 2014 11:19:48 PM UTC-5, Martin Eastburn wrote:
In days gone by in line resistive units were inserted and when they
heated up, a bi-metal by-pass switch shorted it out. Current flowing
in the bi-metal (once tripped) kept it closed. Cut the current and the
bi-metal cools and the process starts all over. The IR drop limits the
current and also lowers the input voltage to the unit powering up.

AFAIC, that device is called a breaker or a fuse and should be required in every form of circuitry over 5mA (milliamps). In a residential situation, if have you a 60 amp breaker, you can do a lot right from your own house without a short.

John - do you happen to know of a source for a time delay relay with a
fixed 1 or 2 second delay? 50 amp capability with an economical price.

Hul

Neon John wrote:
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 08:44:48 -0800, wrote:


Soft start on a welder takes longer than for a motor. This is an
adjustment on the welder itself. And even though it is pretty fast it
is not ideal. Especially when welding aluminum because you want the
metal to get hot as fast as possible. So the technique is to stomp on
the pedal all the way to get the maximum current. Then as soon as a
puddle starts to form the current is decreased. If the aluminum is
heated slowly too much if the heat spreads into the surrounding metal.
After several inches of welding in a localized area the work gets
really hot until it is too hot to handle. Heating the metal fast,
applying the filler fast, and getting off of the pedal makes for
higher throughput. Today my friend is emailing me the graph from the
power company so I will learn more and will post results here. I will
also post the results of the final fix, whatever it is.

Hi Eric.

IF you'd like to email me a copy of the chart ), I can
probably help you. I'm a retired engineer who spent most of his
career in the utility biz so I speak "utility-eze". Also I have a
little consultancy on power quality so I'm familiar with these types
of problems.

A welder can have two separate problems that can cause light flicker.
One is the magnetic core saturation inrush when the ON switch is
flipped. The cause has been explained elsewhere in this thread. The
other is due to the sudden application of load when the arc is struck.

Since the welder has soft starting for the arc, I suspect that the
problem is with core saturation when the welder is turned on. If
that's the problem (it will be glaring on the chart they provide),
there is a very easy and inexpensive solution. It involves
introducing some temporary resistance in series with the line voltage.
This limits the current for a few seconds until the transformer
stabilizes.

It involves a contactor suitable to handle the load, a resistor and a
time delay relay set to 2-3 seconds. Cost should be under $100. If
saturation inrush is the problem, I'll be happy to spec out the parts
needed.

The resistor is typically 2 or 3 stainless steel TIG rods bundled
together in parallel and connected to using split bolt electrical
connectors.. The resistor won't be in the circuit long enough to get
hot so it can be insulated with electrical tape or heat shrink tubing,
coiled up and it and the other parts placed in the welder.

The contactor is connected in parallel with the resistor. The time
delay relay is connected in series with the contactor coil and both
ends are connected to the line downstream of the "on" switch.

When the "on" switch is flipped, the contactor is de-energized and the
resistor is in series with the transformer, limiting the saturation
current. In two or three seconds, the time delay relay trips,
energizing the contactor and shorting the resistor. Normal full power
is applied to the now-stabilized transformer.

On the regulatory side, your friend has the law on his side. There
are both FERC (federal energy regulatory commission) and ANSI specs on
power quality. If your friend has a 200 amp service then the utility
is required to supply 200 amps from a circuit stiff enough to limit
the voltage dip to, normally -5%. That much dip will cause slight
dimming of lights but not an annoying amount.

If the utility isn't meeting that requirement then they are obligated
to install a sufficiently large transformer and service drop to do so
and at their cost.

It is common to have the utility try to bluff the customer into paying
for the new apparatus. That is happening up here in this remote
mountain-top fishing resort. A number of people who have had weekend
cabins are now retiring and moving up here permanently. The
infrastructure can't handle the addition of things like central air
conditioning. One transformer has (probably a record setting) 13
feeds attached to it.

The utility has thrown up roadblocks at every step of the way and it
looks like legal action may be necessary. But my neighbors will
ultimately win because they have law and regulation on their side.

If your friend's welder is drawing more than 200 amps during the
inrush period then the utility CAN force him to pay for remediation.
We'll know when we get the chart. If that's the case then the above
described inrush limiter is the inexpensive solution.

If it comes down to a ****ing contest, I have a spare Dranetz power
quality analyzer that I could loan you. That would give you hard data
to fight back with. Contact me off-line if it comes to that.

John
John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.fluxeon.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 22:15:40 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

John - do you happen to know of a source for a time delay relay with a
fixed 1 or 2 second delay? 50 amp capability with an economical price.

Hul, if he doesn't, try looking at www.automationdirect.com .
Massive selection and good pricing.
1-800-633-0405
Monday - Friday
9 a.m. - 6 p.m. ET
excluding holidays

--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

Thanks - I'll take a look.

Hul

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 22:15:40 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

John - do you happen to know of a source for a time delay relay with a
fixed 1 or 2 second delay? 50 amp capability with an economical price.

Hul, if he doesn't, try looking at www.automationdirect.com .
Massive selection and good pricing.
1-800-633-0405
Monday - Friday
9 a.m. - 6 p.m. ET
excluding holidays

--
The more you know, the less you need.
-- Aboriginal Saying

On 2014-11-05, Hul Tytus wrote:
Thanks - I'll take a look.

Hul

Larry Jaques wrote:
On Tue, 4 Nov 2014 22:15:40 +0000 (UTC), Hul Tytus
wrote:

John - do you happen to know of a source for a time delay relay with a
fixed 1 or 2 second delay? 50 amp capability with an economical price.

Hul, if he doesn't, try looking at www.automationdirect.com .

And perhaps better to get a separate low-power delay relay and a
contactor to handle the 50A load. Or perhaps a solid-state relay for
the heavy load.

Good Luck,
DoN.

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