Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
Not THAT kind of black hole. Sheesh! So I have been reading off and on
about black holes for years. One of the theories about objects falling into black holes says that an observer outside a black hole watching an object fall into a black hole will see the object make it to the event horizon and just hover there. I have not yet found an explanation for this that I understand. Can anyone point me to a book that explains this? I have also been thinking about what happens to someone that crosses the event horizon in the case of extremely large black holes. Since the gravity gradient would be small at the event horizon the person crossing it would not be pulled apart at the time of crossing. So now this person is hurtling toward the black hole and if this person looks directly at the black hole there will be nothing to see because the gravity is so high that escape velocity exceeds the speed of light. But photons crossing the event horizon at an angle should spiral into the black hole. So if the person inside the event horizon looks in any other direction they will be able to see this light. Finally, since the escape velocity just on the other side of the event horizon is just a little higher than the speed of light wouldn't that mean that someone crossing the event horizon would be traveling at the speed of light? And if that is so then wouldn't this person's life span be essentially infinite if observed from outside of the black hole? And is this infinite lifespan the reason why the person from our outside observer's point of view would seem to just hover at the event horizon? If that's the reason it still doesn't make sense to me. I think about this and talk to my friends and relatives, some of whom are very smart, and I get no understanding. And drinking more beer doesn't seem to help either. Please feel free to correct me if any of the assumptions I have made are wrong. Eric |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
|
#3
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
SNIP
AT the event horizon, the acceleration level is 1.0 C (the speed of light in a vacuum). Is that really a "weak" gradient? Well, the gradient is the difference in the pull of gravity over the length of your body. If you are close to the singularity the difference in pull from your head to your toes is so high you will be torn apart into a long, thin stream of your constituent parts. But far enough away from the singularity the difference is so slight you won't even notice the very slight stretching when you pass through the event horizon. Eric I would think a person (or thing) would be pulled apart but a much lower gradient that that... For what it's worth. Richard Lamb (the Cavelamb) |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
"bbold/b" fired this volley in news:lo2jib$qe5$1
@speranza.aioe.org: There's no gravity outside the event horizon. Gravity, like light, doesn't escape. Ooookayy... then "esplain me to it Lucy", how does a black hole attract anything toward itself, if gravity can't escape? Gravity isn't an 'emission', it's a bending of space around a mass. It doesn't HAVE to 'escape'... it's just 'there'. Lloyd |
#7
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:35:30 -0700, etpm wrote:
Not THAT kind of black hole. Sheesh! So I have been reading off and on about black holes for years. One of the theories about objects falling into black holes says that an observer outside a black hole watching an object fall into a black hole will see the object make it to the event horizon and just hover there. I have not yet found an explanation for this that I understand. Can anyone point me to a book that explains this? snip Stephan Hawking, "A Brief History of Time". There's a sequel, which I haven't read, but I do like the guy's writing. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 15:33:43 -0500, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:35:30 -0700, etpm wrote: Not THAT kind of black hole. Sheesh! So I have been reading off and on about black holes for years. One of the theories about objects falling into black holes says that an observer outside a black hole watching an object fall into a black hole will see the object make it to the event horizon and just hover there. I have not yet found an explanation for this that I understand. Can anyone point me to a book that explains this? snip Stephan Hawking, "A Brief History of Time". There's a sequel, which I haven't read, but I do like the guy's writing. I've read it. It does not explain the "hovering" phenomena very well. Eric |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:12:14 -0700, etpm wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 15:33:43 -0500, Tim Wescott wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 08:35:30 -0700, etpm wrote: Not THAT kind of black hole. Sheesh! So I have been reading off and on about black holes for years. One of the theories about objects falling into black holes says that an observer outside a black hole watching an object fall into a black hole will see the object make it to the event horizon and just hover there. I have not yet found an explanation for this that I understand. Can anyone point me to a book that explains this? snip Stephan Hawking, "A Brief History of Time". There's a sequel, which I haven't read, but I do like the guy's writing. I've read it. It does not explain the "hovering" phenomena very well. Eric Maybe we all need to learn special relativity and work through it ourselves. I do know that the biggest challenge presented by black holes is that, basically, the math breaks down. Relativity is a theory that's tacked onto classical mechanics, so it works just peachy as long as quantum effects don't come into play. Quantum mechanics is formulated assuming a flat space-time, so it works just peachy as long as relativistic effects don't come into play. So it's not surprising that the explanations should be a bit shaky and hard to wrap your head around -- theoretical physicists can't agree on the details, so why should we be able to understand? -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#10
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
On Friday, June 20, 2014 8:54:05 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:12:14 -0700, etpm wrote: Stephan Hawking, "A Brief History of Time". There's a sequel, which I haven't read, but I do like the guy's writing. I've read it. It does not explain the "hovering" phenomena very well. Eric Maybe we all need to learn special relativity and work through it ourselves. "Space time physics" by Taylor and Wheeler is (IMHO) the best special relativity (SR) book. Easy to do as a self study. http://www.amazon.com/Spacetime-Phys.../dp/0716723271 I do know that the biggest challenge presented by black holes is that, basically, the math breaks down. Relativity is a theory that's tacked onto classical mechanics, so it works just peachy as long as quantum effects don't come into play. Quantum mechanics is formulated assuming a flat space-time, so it works just peachy as long as relativistic effects don't come into play. So it's not surprising that the explanations should be a bit shaky and hard to wrap your head around -- theoretical physicists can't agree on the details, so why should we be able to understand? Yeah I think there are lots of different ideas, but we just don't have much data on black holes so it's hard to pick between them. To Eric, I don't have any books. And I still have plenty of things I don't understand about SR*, let alone GR. But let me start simple. (Oh and this is my understanding and may be totally full of holes, black, blue or otherwise.) 1.) according to SR photons don't experience any time! (OK that just blows me away! But apparently it's true.) 2.) Let's first start from inside the black hole. The gravity is so strong that photons can't get out. (That's what makes it black.) But how do you stop a photon that doesn't experience time? The solution (I'm told) is to say there is no such thing as time at the event horizon. 3.) Well at this point I'm totally stuck. (as I think most people are.) We don't have any idea how to deal the event horizon. It's kinda outside all our physics ideas, maybe another beer is a good idea! 4.) Then coming at the event horizon from the other side.. well there is still this "no time" point. And now back to my soldering iron. George H. *I'm still very much puzzled by the twin paradox. It seems to me there must be some such thing as the ether (or Aether if you prefer) that defines some sort of fixed (low velocity) coordinate system to the universe. There's an idea (I've lost the guys's name...) that the vacuum, (with all it's virtual particles) forms this ether. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#11
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
fired this volley in news:ddb0b8c9-307d-4e02-8722-
: 1.) according to SR photons don't experience any time! (OK that just blows me away! But apparently it's true.) It gets weirder... Two spin-coupled sub-atomic particles may be separated by _any_ distance, and any change in spin of one is _instantaneously_ reflected in the other. URK! Lloyd |
#12
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
On Wed, 25 Jun 2014 09:12:12 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Friday, June 20, 2014 8:54:05 PM UTC-4, Tim Wescott wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2014 14:12:14 -0700, etpm wrote: Stephan Hawking, "A Brief History of Time". There's a sequel, which I haven't read, but I do like the guy's writing. I've read it. It does not explain the "hovering" phenomena very well. Eric Maybe we all need to learn special relativity and work through it ourselves. "Space time physics" by Taylor and Wheeler is (IMHO) the best special relativity (SR) book. Easy to do as a self study. http://www.amazon.com/Spacetime-Phys.../dp/0716723271 I do know that the biggest challenge presented by black holes is that, basically, the math breaks down. Relativity is a theory that's tacked onto classical mechanics, so it works just peachy as long as quantum effects don't come into play. Quantum mechanics is formulated assuming a flat space-time, so it works just peachy as long as relativistic effects don't come into play. So it's not surprising that the explanations should be a bit shaky and hard to wrap your head around -- theoretical physicists can't agree on the details, so why should we be able to understand? Yeah I think there are lots of different ideas, but we just don't have much data on black holes so it's hard to pick between them. To Eric, I don't have any books. And I still have plenty of things I don't understand about SR*, let alone GR. But let me start simple. (Oh and this is my understanding and may be totally full of holes, black, blue or otherwise.) 1.) according to SR photons don't experience any time! (OK that just blows me away! But apparently it's true.) 2.) Let's first start from inside the black hole. The gravity is so strong that photons can't get out. (That's what makes it black.) But how do you stop a photon that doesn't experience time? The solution (I'm told) is to say there is no such thing as time at the event horizon. 3.) Well at this point I'm totally stuck. (as I think most people are.) We don't have any idea how to deal the event horizon. It's kinda outside all our physics ideas, maybe another beer is a good idea! 4.) Then coming at the event horizon from the other side.. well there is still this "no time" point. And now back to my soldering iron. George H. *I'm still very much puzzled by the twin paradox. It seems to me there must be some such thing as the ether (or Aether if you prefer) that defines some sort of fixed (low velocity) coordinate system to the universe. There's an idea (I've lost the guys's name...) that the vacuum, (with all it's virtual particles) forms this ether. -- Tim Wescott Wescott Design Services http://www.wescottdesign.com Thanks for the book suggestion. I'll look it up. As for photons being stopped by the whatever if they don't experience time I don't see how that is a problem. As gravity gets stronger the path the photon takes gets more and more curved. Eventually the path is curved to the point that the path curves back into the black hole. Where, I assume, the photon is absorbed and converted into some other form of energy or matter. Maybe just energy. I'm not clear as to whether matter can exsist inside a black hole. Maybe just degenerate matter. Eric |
#13
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
|
#14
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
|
#15
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
On Sat, 21 Jun 2014 00:27:57 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:
On 6/20/2014 11:35 AM, wrote: Not THAT kind of black hole. Sheesh! So I have been reading off and on about black holes for years. One of the theories about objects falling into black holes says that an observer outside a black hole watching an object fall into a black hole will see the object make it to the event horizon and just hover there. I have not yet found an explanation for this that I understand. Can anyone point me to a book that explains this? And drinking more beer doesn't seem to help either. Eric Switch to Scotch! Best suggestion yet! |
#16
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
|
|||
|
|||
WAY OT, Black hole questions
|
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
2 hole in the wall questions | Home Repair | |||
Spacing of guide holes in the 3-hole Kreg Pocket Hole Jig? | Woodworking | |||
Will single hole faucet fit widespread center hole? | Home Repair | |||
"Black! Black! It's all Black!" - flooring advice needed please! | UK diy | |||
The black hole of Suckage was Delta 36-L31X-BC50 X5 3HP Left Tilt Unisaw with Biesemeyer | Woodworking |