Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

Mybad.

It never got to the bullet stage.
That was just from opening the neck.

Dead soft is NOT acceptable.

On 1/27/2014 11:49 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Id be happy to do a video of the operation, just send me a
GoPro..which Ill happily send back.

Gunner


You have never done ANYTHING you told me you were going to do.

So I'll pass.

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:46:54 -0600, Richard
wrote:

Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

Well, I see that you discovered that all the experts aren't :-)
A particularly important fact to learn if one messes about on the
Internet :-)

But on the other side of the question, why did you ever think that the
whole case needed to be annealed? The neck gets squeezed and then
stretched and then squeezed and then... and it work hardens but the
rest of the case?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/28/2014 5:46 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:46:54 -0600,
wrote:

Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

Well, I see that you discovered that all the experts aren't :-)
A particularly important fact to learn if one messes about on the
Internet :-)

But on the other side of the question, why did you ever think that the
whole case needed to be annealed? The neck gets squeezed and then
stretched and then squeezed and then... and it work hardens but the
rest of the case?


Neck only.
I built a small rotisserie for heat treat the cases.
This one was just an extreme example to see what would happen if the
case were annealed to dead soft.

And yes,. it's still brass - not copper.

This one just didn't get polished again.

Go back can check your email.

I'll not argue with a fool this morning.
Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference.

Paraphrased from Mark Twain.

On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?

On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:06:07 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/28/2014 5:46 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:46:54 -0600,
wrote:

Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

Well, I see that you discovered that all the experts aren't :-)
A particularly important fact to learn if one messes about on the
Internet :-)

But on the other side of the question, why did you ever think that the
whole case needed to be annealed? The neck gets squeezed and then
stretched and then squeezed and then... and it work hardens but the
rest of the case?


Neck only.
I built a small rotisserie for heat treat the cases.
This one was just an extreme example to see what would happen if the
case were annealed to dead soft.

And yes,. it's still brass - not copper.

This one just didn't get polished again.


I loaded mostly for .45 ACP for target shooting. Lead bullets. But we
had literally barrels of brass so we just loaded with no case work at
all. We assumed that a substantial portion of the cases were once
fired only.

I did load one batch of lead bullets with the idea that I might like
to shoot them in matches but it is a bit of a hassle - inspect
everything, case length, inspect primer pocket, check vent hole,
select all same make brass so crimp will be even - weigh each bullet,
etc.

and the Air Force furnished factory loaded ammo for matches :-)

But I used to load for the 22 - 250 but only neck sized, and if I
stayed away from the range 20 rounds lasted for quite a while. We used
to shoot crows by calling them with a record player which tells you
how long ago that was :-) We'd get one shot then we had to move to
another location before the crows would get close.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 21:38:37 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

Does brass age harden?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/29/2014 5:36 AM, John B. wrote:

Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

Does brass age harden?

I believe so.
Age hardening and/or precipitation hardens.
Beyond that, I don't know.

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:22:48 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/29/2014 5:36 AM, John B. wrote:

Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

Does brass age harden?

I believe so.
Age hardening and/or precipitation hardens.
Beyond that, I don't know.

I never knew that. I had always assumed that work hardening was all
that happened.
(on the other hand I had never delved into the matter :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote
We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.


I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.

There are 100 rounds in my reload box.
I've reloaded them 10 times now and it was time to recondition the necks.
Heat treat, trim length, etc.
Those 100 cases are special (to me anyway!) and I try to take very good
care of them. Heating the necks is done in a water bath about 1/2"
deep.

This particular case was just a test to see what would happen if heated
too long. Not cherry red hot, but just on the edge.


I believe dead soft is the correct term for the condition of that neck.
It felt like dead soft aluminum (annealed condition O) when I picked at it.
The neck bent and tore quite easily (needle nose plires).


Roomalating? Cute term.

On 1/29/2014 6:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.



Did you also use the "intuitive" method for heating? I once had a .240
Gibbs that was a .30-06 case necked down and fire formed and did nothing
different for annealing and that worked. I'm guessing that it's not
that critical or I've just been lucky. When this comes to light, let me
know the story. It's something simple or complex or somewhere in between.

On 1/29/2014 8:22 PM, Richard wrote:
John B. wrote
We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits
(in a room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used
to anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of
water in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the
water. I didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That
seemed to work for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept
to the conservative end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.
There are 100 rounds in my reload box.
I've reloaded them 10 times now and it was time to recondition the necks.
Heat treat, trim length, etc.
Those 100 cases are special (to me anyway!) and I try to take very good
care of them. Heating the necks is done in a water bath about 1/2"
deep.
This particular case was just a test to see what would happen if heated
too long. Not cherry red hot, but just on the edge.


I believe dead soft is the correct term for the condition of that neck.
It felt like dead soft aluminum (annealed condition O) when I picked at it.
The neck bent and tore quite easily (needle nose plires).


Roomalating? Cute term.


I understand. 10 loadings seems impressive but that a stretch! (pun
intended)

On 1/29/2014 9:55 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/29/2014 8:22 PM, Richard wrote:
John B. wrote
We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits
(in a room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used
to anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of
water in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the
water. I didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That
seemed to work for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept
to the conservative end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.
There are 100 rounds in my reload box.
I've reloaded them 10 times now and it was time to recondition the
necks.
Heat treat, trim length, etc.
Those 100 cases are special (to me anyway!) and I try to take very good
care of them. Heating the necks is done in a water bath about 1/2"
deep.
This particular case was just a test to see what would happen if heated
too long. Not cherry red hot, but just on the edge.


I believe dead soft is the correct term for the condition of that neck.
It felt like dead soft aluminum (annealed condition O) when I picked
at it.
The neck bent and tore quite easily (needle nose plires).


Roomalating? Cute term.


I understand. 10 loadings seems impressive but that a stretch! (pun
intended)

They started off as factory loads (Winchester), fire formed to this
rifle only.
I set the sizing die to space on the shoulder (!) early on.
Maybe that has an effect? i dunno.
Dunno anything else.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 19:22:10 -0600, Richard
wrote:

John B. wrote
We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.


I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.

There are 100 rounds in my reload box.
I've reloaded them 10 times now and it was time to recondition the necks.
Heat treat, trim length, etc.
Those 100 cases are special (to me anyway!) and I try to take very good
care of them. Heating the necks is done in a water bath about 1/2"
deep.

This particular case was just a test to see what would happen if heated
too long. Not cherry red hot, but just on the edge.

Its been a long time but as I remember it I heated the necks with a
propane torch until the began to change color and tipped them over...
and they went Psssit.

The lot of 50 fired 250-3000 cases I had were full length sized (to 22
cal) then fire formed and then neck sized and reamed and case length
adjusted. Then annealed and loaded. I don't remember ever
re-annealing. But I was loading for a single shot rifle with jacked
bullets and the neck sizing die I had didn't squeeze them much.


I believe dead soft is the correct term for the condition of that neck.
It felt like dead soft aluminum (annealed condition O) when I picked at it.
The neck bent and tore quite easily (needle nose plires).

Or maybe you just have strong hands :-)



Roomalating? Cute term.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 22:52:12 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/29/2014 6:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.



Did you also use the "intuitive" method for heating? I once had a .240
Gibbs that was a .30-06 case necked down and fire formed and did nothing
different for annealing and that worked. I'm guessing that it's not
that critical or I've just been lucky. When this comes to light, let me
know the story. It's something simple or complex or somewhere in between.

I was quite a few years ago when I was annealing case necks but
everyone was recommending the same technique - stand in a cookie pan
of water, heat until the case neck changes color, tip it over. I did
it that way and the necks never cracked.

Not that long ago I read up on the technique on the Web and damned it
is hasn't become a science with temperature sensors and everything.
But I keep remembering.... my necks never cracked :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/30/2014 7:02 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 22:52:12 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/29/2014 6:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.



Did you also use the "intuitive" method for heating? I once had a .240
Gibbs that was a .30-06 case necked down and fire formed and did nothing
different for annealing and that worked. I'm guessing that it's not
that critical or I've just been lucky. When this comes to light, let me
know the story. It's something simple or complex or somewhere in between.

I was quite a few years ago when I was annealing case necks but
everyone was recommending the same technique - stand in a cookie pan
of water, heat until the case neck changes color, tip it over. I did
it that way and the necks never cracked.

Not that long ago I read up on the technique on the Web and damned it
is hasn't become a science with temperature sensors and everything.
But I keep remembering.... my necks never cracked :-)



Nor I with the .240. I guess complicated doesn't mean better.

On 1/30/2014 2:03 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/30/2014 7:02 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 22:52:12 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/29/2014 6:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our
self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on
the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft
and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind
of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits
(in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of
water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to
work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the
conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.



Did you also use the "intuitive" method for heating? I once had a .240
Gibbs that was a .30-06 case necked down and fire formed and did
nothing
different for annealing and that worked. I'm guessing that it's not
that critical or I've just been lucky. When this comes to light,
let me
know the story. It's something simple or complex or somewhere in
between.

I was quite a few years ago when I was annealing case necks but
everyone was recommending the same technique - stand in a cookie pan
of water, heat until the case neck changes color, tip it over. I did
it that way and the necks never cracked.

Not that long ago I read up on the technique on the Web and damned it
is hasn't become a science with temperature sensors and everything.
But I keep remembering.... my necks never cracked :-)



Nor I with the .240. I guess complicated doesn't mean better.


It often seems like things are made to sell just to have something to sell.
Doesn't matter if the commercial product is more complicated than needs be.
People just don't seem to be able to _make_ things for themselves any more.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 15:27:45 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/30/2014 2:03 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/30/2014 7:02 AM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 22:52:12 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/29/2014 6:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our
self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on
the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft
and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind
of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits
(in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of
water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to
work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the
conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.



Did you also use the "intuitive" method for heating? I once had a .240
Gibbs that was a .30-06 case necked down and fire formed and did
nothing
different for annealing and that worked. I'm guessing that it's not
that critical or I've just been lucky. When this comes to light,
let me
know the story. It's something simple or complex or somewhere in
between.

I was quite a few years ago when I was annealing case necks but
everyone was recommending the same technique - stand in a cookie pan
of water, heat until the case neck changes color, tip it over. I did
it that way and the necks never cracked.

Not that long ago I read up on the technique on the Web and damned it
is hasn't become a science with temperature sensors and everything.
But I keep remembering.... my necks never cracked :-)



Nor I with the .240. I guess complicated doesn't mean better.


It often seems like things are made to sell just to have something to sell.
Doesn't matter if the commercial product is more complicated than needs be.
People just don't seem to be able to _make_ things for themselves any more.


When you think about it, Everything that is made, is made to sell. :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/30/2014 7:25 PM, John B. wrote:
I was quite a few years ago when I was annealing case necks but
everyone was recommending the same technique - stand in a cookie pan
of water, heat until the case neck changes color, tip it over. I did
it that way and the necks never cracked.

Not that long ago I read up on the technique on the Web and damned it
is hasn't become a science with temperature sensors and everything.
But I keep remembering.... my necks never cracked :-)
Nor I with the .240. I guess complicated doesn't mean better.
It often seems like things are made to sell just to have something to sell.
Doesn't matter if the commercial product is more complicated than needs be.
People just don't seem to be able to _make_ things for themselves any more.


When you think about it, Everything that is made, is made to sell. :-)
My first thought was ,"Of course".

But that's not really true.

Some things are made because we want to use them..

Some are made to be gifts.

And some things should never have been made at all!

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014 21:38:38 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/30/2014 7:25 PM, John B. wrote:
I was quite a few years ago when I was annealing case necks but
everyone was recommending the same technique - stand in a cookie pan
of water, heat until the case neck changes color, tip it over. I did
it that way and the necks never cracked.

Not that long ago I read up on the technique on the Web and damned it
is hasn't become a science with temperature sensors and everything.
But I keep remembering.... my necks never cracked :-)
Nor I with the .240. I guess complicated doesn't mean better.
It often seems like things are made to sell just to have something to sell.
Doesn't matter if the commercial product is more complicated than needs be.
People just don't seem to be able to _make_ things for themselves any more.


When you think about it, Everything that is made, is made to sell. :-)
My first thought was ,"Of course".

But that's not really true.

Some things are made because we want to use them..

Some are made to be gifts.

And some things should never have been made at all!

Picky, picky :-)

But o.k., made for a purpose, some to sell and some to use (so we
don't have to buy them :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.