Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:46:54 -0600, Richard
wrote:

Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

Well, I see that you discovered that all the experts aren't :-)
A particularly important fact to learn if one messes about on the
Internet :-)

But on the other side of the question, why did you ever think that the
whole case needed to be annealed? The neck gets squeezed and then
stretched and then squeezed and then... and it work hardens but the
rest of the case?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/28/2014 5:46 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:46:54 -0600,
wrote:

Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

Well, I see that you discovered that all the experts aren't :-)
A particularly important fact to learn if one messes about on the
Internet :-)

But on the other side of the question, why did you ever think that the
whole case needed to be annealed? The neck gets squeezed and then
stretched and then squeezed and then... and it work hardens but the
rest of the case?


Neck only.
I built a small rotisserie for heat treat the cases.
This one was just an extreme example to see what would happen if the
case were annealed to dead soft.

And yes,. it's still brass - not copper.

This one just didn't get polished again.

On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 10:06:07 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/28/2014 5:46 AM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 27 Jan 2014 20:46:54 -0600,
wrote:

Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".

Well, I see that you discovered that all the experts aren't :-)
A particularly important fact to learn if one messes about on the
Internet :-)

But on the other side of the question, why did you ever think that the
whole case needed to be annealed? The neck gets squeezed and then
stretched and then squeezed and then... and it work hardens but the
rest of the case?


Neck only.
I built a small rotisserie for heat treat the cases.
This one was just an extreme example to see what would happen if the
case were annealed to dead soft.

And yes,. it's still brass - not copper.

This one just didn't get polished again.


I loaded mostly for .45 ACP for target shooting. Lead bullets. But we
had literally barrels of brass so we just loaded with no case work at
all. We assumed that a substantial portion of the cases were once
fired only.

I did load one batch of lead bullets with the idea that I might like
to shoot them in matches but it is a bit of a hassle - inspect
everything, case length, inspect primer pocket, check vent hole,
select all same make brass so crimp will be even - weigh each bullet,
etc.

and the Air Force furnished factory loaded ammo for matches :-)

But I used to load for the 22 - 250 but only neck sized, and if I
stayed away from the range 20 rounds lasted for quite a while. We used
to shoot crows by calling them with a record player which tells you
how long ago that was :-) We'd get one shot then we had to move to
another location before the crows would get close.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?

On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

On Tue, 28 Jan 2014 21:38:37 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

Does brass age harden?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/29/2014 5:36 AM, John B. wrote:

Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

Does brass age harden?

I believe so.
Age hardening and/or precipitation hardens.
Beyond that, I don't know.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 10:22:48 -0600, Richard
wrote:

On 1/29/2014 5:36 AM, John B. wrote:

Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?

Does brass age harden?

I believe so.
Age hardening and/or precipitation hardens.
Beyond that, I don't know.

I never knew that. I had always assumed that work hardening was all
that happened.
(on the other hand I had never delved into the matter :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.
--
Cheers,

John B.

John B. wrote
We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.


I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.

There are 100 rounds in my reload box.
I've reloaded them 10 times now and it was time to recondition the necks.
Heat treat, trim length, etc.
Those 100 cases are special (to me anyway!) and I try to take very good
care of them. Heating the necks is done in a water bath about 1/2"
deep.

This particular case was just a test to see what would happen if heated
too long. Not cherry red hot, but just on the edge.


I believe dead soft is the correct term for the condition of that neck.
It felt like dead soft aluminum (annealed condition O) when I picked at it.
The neck bent and tore quite easily (needle nose plires).


Roomalating? Cute term.

On 1/29/2014 6:43 PM, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Jan 2014 15:24:10 -0500, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 1/28/2014 10:38 PM, Richard wrote:
On 1/28/2014 9:29 PM, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 1/27/2014 9:46 PM, Richard wrote:
Refer back to the Cowboy Assault Rifle thread for details.
Winchester 1894 - and some reloading and cast lead boolits.


When I was first getting started reloading, one of our self-professed
experts said that annealing cases to a dead soft condition was
perfectly acceptable.

Well now...

I suggest that we not necessarily believe everything we read on the net!
Just for grins and giggles I cooked one 30-30 case to dead soft and
tried to press a lead bullet into it.

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~cave-...s/deadsoft.jpg

As Spock would say, "Fascinating".



What lube was used"? The neck looks way overheated to me. What was
misaligned to rip the side?


Hi Tom. I was waiting to hear from you.

I'm using Lee case lube, but that wasn't the problem here.
I did that tear with a pair of needle nose pliers.
Just poking at it to see what it was.
It was just really soft pliable metal around the neck.
It's not as dark in real life as the photos look.

A day or so later (after being deformed) it had become quite a bit
stiffer.

Annealing is the wrong term to use when talking about this kind of heat
treatment.

I suspect it was you said that a while back?

In the annealed state the case is ruined.
Will it age harden back to any useful temper?
Assuming one doesn't poke at it before hand?





We call it "roomalating"; that period of time that metal just sits (in a
room) and normalizes. Why do you think it got so soft? I used to
anneal my .223's by standing them up in a cookie trey with 1/2" of water
in it then heat the neck with a torch and tip them into the water. I
didn't heat them red, just guessed. (dead soft???) That seemed to work
for me an I used the cases at least 5 times. I kept to the conservative
end of the powder chart.

I'm not sure how often it is necessary to "neck anneal" but I had,
probably 50 22-250 wildcat cases I annealed once, after initially
necking down and fire-forming, and never had any problems with them -
loaded to about 3,000 FPS.

Used the same technique as you, pan of water, heat them up, tip them
over.



Did you also use the "intuitive" method for heating? I once had a .240
Gibbs that was a .30-06 case necked down and fire formed and did nothing
different for annealing and that worked. I'm guessing that it's not
that critical or I've just been lucky. When this comes to light, let me
know the story. It's something simple or complex or somewhere in between.