My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.

On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:18:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Don't they recommend to stand the cases in water anymore, to keep the
head-end from overheating?

Your best bet for recognizing temperature is Tempilaq, according to
the handloading experts I used to read when I was interested in
wildcats. I've never used it but I used Tempilsticks all the time when
I was doing more metalworking, and they're great.

--
Ed Huntress

On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:18:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Unless you are full length resizing the case all you need to do is
anneal the necks. The usual technique was, as Ed mentioned, to stand
the cases in a pan of water - reaching say half way up the case - and
heat the necks. when you get a color change then tip the case over.
The temperature really isn't that critical as all you are doing is
annealing the work hardening that you are doing when you expand and
crimp the neck.

If you are using lead bullets you are probably expanding the necks and
crimping fairly aggressively so you probably will be annealing more
often then a bloke shooting jacketed bullets.

It might be useful to measure the cases and trim to length and
possibly ream the necks, if necessarily, occasionally.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 8/23/2013 10:17 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:18:14 -0500,
wrote:

My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Unless you are full length resizing the case all you need to do is
anneal the necks. The usual technique was, as Ed mentioned, to stand
the cases in a pan of water - reaching say half way up the case - and
heat the necks. when you get a color change then tip the case over.
The temperature really isn't that critical as all you are doing is
annealing the work hardening that you are doing when you expand and
crimp the neck.

If you are using lead bullets you are probably expanding the necks and
crimping fairly aggressively so you probably will be annealing more
often then a bloke shooting jacketed bullets.

It might be useful to measure the cases and trim to length and
possibly ream the necks, if necessarily, occasionally.

--
Cheers,

John B.


Thanks guys.

Yes, lever guns (headspace off of the flange!) tend to stretch the cases
over max length in only 3 or 4 rounds. So yes, full length sizing
and trimming to length (and yes, expanding (GENTLY!) the necks for
lead).

My latest effort is to start resizing so as to headspace off of the
shoulder. All that involves is setup for the full length sizer so that
the sizer matches a case fired in this rifle. That OUGHT to reduce the
amount of growth considerably.

Hadn't heard of "Tempilaq", but I'll go find some.

As for the pan of water device, I have built one that turns Lazy Susan
style, but I still need to build a DC speed control circuit to get the
speed under control. It takes a good six seconds for the neck to come
up to temp and they aren't staying in the flame long enough right now.
But even then it's too easy to get TOO hot TOO long and go dead soft.

I want to have a way to cross check the temp - at least until I have
enough confidence in what I'm doing!


I asked Santa Clause for an M1 Carbine for Christmas...
30 carbine is a cheap reload with few of the problems associated with
100 year old designs...

On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 11:31:18 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 8/23/2013 10:17 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:18:14 -0500,
wrote:

My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Unless you are full length resizing the case all you need to do is
anneal the necks. The usual technique was, as Ed mentioned, to stand
the cases in a pan of water - reaching say half way up the case - and
heat the necks. when you get a color change then tip the case over.
The temperature really isn't that critical as all you are doing is
annealing the work hardening that you are doing when you expand and
crimp the neck.

If you are using lead bullets you are probably expanding the necks and
crimping fairly aggressively so you probably will be annealing more
often then a bloke shooting jacketed bullets.

It might be useful to measure the cases and trim to length and
possibly ream the necks, if necessarily, occasionally.

--
Cheers,

John B.


Thanks guys.

Yes, lever guns (headspace off of the flange!) tend to stretch the cases
over max length in only 3 or 4 rounds. So yes, full length sizing
and trimming to length (and yes, expanding (GENTLY!) the necks for
lead).

My latest effort is to start resizing so as to headspace off of the
shoulder. All that involves is setup for the full length sizer so that
the sizer matches a case fired in this rifle. That OUGHT to reduce the
amount of growth considerably.

Hadn't heard of "Tempilaq", but I'll go find some.

It's used by small shops for heat-treating, but I think that Brownells
and other gun-supply places also stock it -- probably at a premium
price.

You can get away with a lot of corner-cutting heat treatment if you
have some Tempilaq or Tempilsticks. I used them to determine
temperature of the workpieces in a "furnace" made of loosely-assembled
firebricks with two big portable propane torches for heat, and got
pretty consistent results heat-treating small pieces of steel.


As for the pan of water device, I have built one that turns Lazy Susan
style, but I still need to build a DC speed control circuit to get the
speed under control. It takes a good six seconds for the neck to come
up to temp and they aren't staying in the flame long enough right now.
But even then it's too easy to get TOO hot TOO long and go dead soft.

I want to have a way to cross check the temp - at least until I have
enough confidence in what I'm doing!


I asked Santa Clause for an M1 Carbine for Christmas...
30 carbine is a cheap reload with few of the problems associated with
100 year old designs...

"Richard" wrote in message
m...
My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Let's clear up some terminology. Annealing of cartridge brass occurs in the
800-1400 deg range. This fully softens the brass and is only something you
should think about if you're wildcatting.

What you want is called stress relief. This occurs in the 500-650 range.
If you are using a turbo torch, stop. These heat too fast and are too
oxidizing a flame.

Use a pencil flame torch, you want a soft reducing flame and you may have to
cover an air hole to get it.
Heat slowly and dance the flame around. As they heat, the necks will darken.
Eventually, you will see the darkening disappear as you play the torch
across it and reappear as the flame leaves, This is the temp you want.

You don't need to quench, but it is not harmful. On something as long as a
30-30 you would have to screw up big time to get the head up to any critical
temperature.

The shoulder should be fine in the same temp range but will probably never
get there.

The inaccuracies of torch heating and exposed surface area will leave you
with the crimp area softer than the rest of the neck, which is exactly what
you want.

You should not have to do this too often. It depends on your load and crimp.


Paul K. Dickman

On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 12:12:18 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:

...

Let's clear up some terminology. Annealing of cartridge brass occurs in the
800-1400 deg range. This fully softens the brass and is only something you
should think about if you're wildcatting.

What you want is called stress relief. This occurs in the 500-650 range.
If you are using a turbo torch, stop. These heat too fast and are too
oxidizing a flame.

Use a pencil flame torch, you want a soft reducing flame and you may have to
cover an air hole to get it.
Heat slowly and dance the flame around. As they heat, the necks will darken.
Eventually, you will see the darkening disappear as you play the torch
across it and reappear as the flame leaves, This is the temp you want.

You don't need to quench, but it is not harmful. On something as long as a
30-30 you would have to screw up big time to get the head up to any critical
temperature.

The shoulder should be fine in the same temp range but will probably never
get there.

The inaccuracies of torch heating and exposed surface area will leave you
with the crimp area softer than the rest of the neck, which is exactly what
you want.

You should not have to do this too often. It depends on your load and crimp.


That explains a lot. I was trying to apply this technique to a
different piece of brass. Once I put it in the water bath I could not
get the color change on the exposed section: The water bath acted like
a heat sink big time. I was using a propylene-air torch.

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On 8/23/2013 12:12 PM, Paul K. Dickman wrote:


Let's clear up some terminology. Annealing of cartridge brass occurs in the
800-1400 deg range. This fully softens the brass and is only something you
should think about if you're wildcatting.

What you want is called stress relief. This occurs in the 500-650 range.
If you are using a turbo torch, stop. These heat too fast and are too
oxidizing a flame.

Use a pencil flame torch, you want a soft reducing flame and you may have to
cover an air hole to get it.
Heat slowly and dance the flame around. As they heat, the necks will darken.
Eventually, you will see the darkening disappear as you play the torch
across it and reappear as the flame leaves, This is the temp you want.

You don't need to quench, but it is not harmful. On something as long as a
30-30 you would have to screw up big time to get the head up to any critical
temperature.

The shoulder should be fine in the same temp range but will probably never
get there.

The inaccuracies of torch heating and exposed surface area will leave you
with the crimp area softer than the rest of the neck, which is exactly what
you want.

You should not have to do this too often. It depends on your load and crimp.


Paul K. Dickman



Thank you, sir.
That's a keeper.

Richard
the cavelamb

Don't know if it is the same brand, but go to www.mcmaster.com and put
either "heat stick" or 604 in the search box and you will see their
selection of crayons ($11.48 ea) and liquid paint, in melting temps from
104F to 2000F. I'd assume msc (www.mscdirect.com) and probably
www.grainger.com also carry them, if you prefer them over mcmaster carr.

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
"Richard" wrote in message
m...

On 8/23/2013 10:17 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:18:14 -0500,
wrote:

My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Unless you are full length resizing the case all you need to do is
anneal the necks. The usual technique was, as Ed mentioned, to stand
the cases in a pan of water - reaching say half way up the case - and
heat the necks. when you get a color change then tip the case over.
The temperature really isn't that critical as all you are doing is
annealing the work hardening that you are doing when you expand and
crimp the neck.

If you are using lead bullets you are probably expanding the necks and
crimping fairly aggressively so you probably will be annealing more
often then a bloke shooting jacketed bullets.

It might be useful to measure the cases and trim to length and
possibly ream the necks, if necessarily, occasionally.

--
Cheers,

John B.


Thanks guys.

Yes, lever guns (headspace off of the flange!) tend to stretch the cases
over max length in only 3 or 4 rounds. So yes, full length sizing
and trimming to length (and yes, expanding (GENTLY!) the necks for
lead).

My latest effort is to start resizing so as to headspace off of the
shoulder. All that involves is setup for the full length sizer so that
the sizer matches a case fired in this rifle. That OUGHT to reduce the
amount of growth considerably.

Hadn't heard of "Tempilaq", but I'll go find some.

As for the pan of water device, I have built one that turns Lazy Susan
style, but I still need to build a DC speed control circuit to get the
speed under control. It takes a good six seconds for the neck to come
up to temp and they aren't staying in the flame long enough right now.
But even then it's too easy to get TOO hot TOO long and go dead soft.

I want to have a way to cross check the temp - at least until I have
enough confidence in what I'm doing!


I asked Santa Clause for an M1 Carbine for Christmas...
30 carbine is a cheap reload with few of the problems associated with
100 year old designs...

"Richard" wrote in message
m...
snip---

My latest effort is to start resizing so as to headspace off of the
shoulder. All that involves is setup for the full length sizer so that
the sizer matches a case fired in this rifle. That OUGHT to reduce the
amount of growth considerably.

Probably a good idea so long as they're being fired in the same weapon.

I had a 218 Bee as a young lad. Damned thing stretched the brass so much it
would separate at the head after a few reloadings. I should have tried
just neck sizing, but that never entered my mind. You know how kids are.

Harold

On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:18:14 -0500, Richard
wrote:

My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Go to the second hand store and buy a nice big cake pan deep enough to
stand your brass up in with the neck and some shoulder above water
....fill pan until proper depth reached.

Hit the neck and shoulders with your propane torch on low..until the
brass glows a dull orange. With the tip of your torch..knock the brass
over into the water. Repeat as necessary. Very simple

Been doing it this way for at least 30 yrs. Which bullet do you get
the best results with?

I shoot either a 130gr GC M1 Carbine design, or a 150 gr Lovern style
in Marlin Microgroove or a bore rider in everything else

Id have to go into the shop and get the mold numbers.

Gunner


"There are no leftists in mainstream American politics.

Just two right wing parties, one hard right and one softer."
Christopher A. Lee, 8/18/2013

On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 12:12:18 -0500, "Paul K. Dickman"
wrote:


"Richard" wrote in message
om...
My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work
hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible.

I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory.

So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a
try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a
portable drill and fired up a propane torch.

As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck
(indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from
the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been
annealed but not the rest of the case.

When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to
stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't
"heat treat" like steel in that respect)

Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way
around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging
by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to
the next.

I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the
process.

Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F)

The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in
grain structure can occur.

Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case.
It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases.

Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc?

(Karl???)


BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty
hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and
give good accuracy.


Let's clear up some terminology. Annealing of cartridge brass occurs in the
800-1400 deg range. This fully softens the brass and is only something you
should think about if you're wildcatting.

What you want is called stress relief. This occurs in the 500-650 range.
If you are using a turbo torch, stop. These heat too fast and are too
oxidizing a flame.

Use a pencil flame torch, you want a soft reducing flame and you may have to
cover an air hole to get it.
Heat slowly and dance the flame around. As they heat, the necks will darken.
Eventually, you will see the darkening disappear as you play the torch
across it and reappear as the flame leaves, This is the temp you want.

You don't need to quench, but it is not harmful. On something as long as a
30-30 you would have to screw up big time to get the head up to any critical
temperature.

The shoulder should be fine in the same temp range but will probably never
get there.

The inaccuracies of torch heating and exposed surface area will leave you
with the crimp area softer than the rest of the neck, which is exactly what
you want.

You should not have to do this too often. It depends on your load and crimp.


Paul K. Dickman

Dead soft in the 3030 NECK and shoulder ......will harm nothing and
will prolong brass life many many times. I average 30 reloads from
regularly annealed (about every 10th firing) and neck sizing only

Ive got brass in the cases that have been reloaded at least 50 times

Gunner

"There are no leftists in mainstream American politics.

Just two right wing parties, one hard right and one softer."
Christopher A. Lee, 8/18/2013

On Saturday, August 24, 2013 7:10:21 AM UTC-6, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Fri, 23 Aug 2013 09:18:14 -0500, Richard wrote: My 30-30 brass, having been reloaded a few times, is getting work hardened. I'd like to extend the useful life of the cases if possible. I've read a lot about annealing brass, some of it quite contradictory. So yesterday, I took what I think I understand of that and gave it a try. I chucked up the shell holder from my Lee trimming tool in a portable drill and fired up a propane torch. As I understand it, I'm looking for a gold color change at the neck (indicating 700 to 800 degrees?) , but without losing the shine from the rest of the case - as an indication that the case neck has been annealed but not the rest of the case. When the color change happened, I dropped the case in a bowl of water to stop the heat from continuing down the case and head. (Brass doesn't "heat treat" like steel in that respect) Spinning the brass seemed to give an equal treatment all the way around (which should avoid hard spots in the neck area) , but judging by color change alone I wonder about the consistency from one case to the next. I haven't seen an IR thermometer that goes high enough to monitor the process. Keep the case head below 300 degrees (F) The critical temperature is 482 degrees at which the first changes in grain structure can occur. Annealing brass to "dead soft" will ruin the case. It will be dangerous to attempt to shoot shoot cases. Anybody have more info/helpful tips/ etc? (Karl???) BTW, I'm reloading mostly cast lead these days, and pushing those pretty hard (trying to stay right at 2000 fps). That seems to work well and give good accuracy. Go to the second hand store and buy a nice big cake pan deep enough to stand your brass up in with the neck and some shoulder above water ...fill pan until proper depth reached. Hit the neck and shoulders with your propane torch on low..until the brass glows a dull orange. With the tip of your torch..knock the brass over into the water. Repeat as necessary. Very simple Been doing it this way for at least 30 yrs. Which bullet do you get the best results with? I shoot either a 130gr GC M1 Carbine design, or a 150 gr Lovern style in Marlin Microgroove or a bore rider in everything else Id have to go into the shop and get the mold numbers. Gunner "There are no leftists in mainstream American politics. Just two right wing parties, one hard right and one softer." Christopher A. Lee, 8/18/2013

If it "glows" at all, the brass is ruined, you want just a bit of change in the oxidation colors. A torch is NOT the way to do this if you want temperature control, a lead bath and a good thermometer is the way to do it. Make a fork for the heads and do 4-5 at once. Immerse to the shoulder, remove and dump into water. Keep water and lead separate! This also works for tempering springs.

Stan

On 8/24/2013 8:14 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Dead soft in the 3030 NECK and shoulder ......will harm nothing and
will prolong brass life many many times. I average 30 reloads from
regularly annealed (about every 10th firing) and neck sizing only

Ive got brass in the cases that have been reloaded at least 50 times

Gunner



Sounds "entertaining"...

On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 12:53:15 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

If it "glows" at all, the brass is ruined,

Not at all. Been doing it for years

Another way to anneal brass..is to get your lead melting pot up to
temp..and quickly dip your case necks into the molten lead..then drop
it into a bucket of water. You Will get a fine wash of lead on a few
cases..but it will largely wipe off.


"There are no leftists in mainstream American politics.

Just two right wing parties, one hard right and one softer."
Christopher A. Lee, 8/18/2013

On Sat, 24 Aug 2013 15:59:59 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 8/24/2013 8:14 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Dead soft in the 3030 NECK and shoulder ......will harm nothing and
will prolong brass life many many times. I average 30 reloads from
regularly annealed (about every 10th firing) and neck sizing only

Ive got brass in the cases that have been reloaded at least 50 times

Gunner



Sounds "entertaining"...

Its called "taking care of ones tools"


"There are no leftists in mainstream American politics.

Just two right wing parties, one hard right and one softer."
Christopher A. Lee, 8/18/2013

On 8/23/2013 9:59 PM, Carl Ijames wrote:
Don't know if it is the same brand, but go to www.mcmaster.com and put
either "heat stick" or 604 in the search box and you will see their
selection of crayons ($11.48 ea) and liquid paint, in melting temps from
104F to 2000F. I'd assume msc (www.mscdirect.com) and probably
www.grainger.com also carry them, if you prefer them over mcmaster carr.


I found out a bit about that.
The "crayons" are actually rather chalky.
Hard to mark on polished brass.
The suggestion was to do the marking and heating before polishing.

The paints are probably easier to use.
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/heat-treating-accessories/tempilaq--prod13124.aspx?avad=avant&ch=aff&aid=33499

A dab of 450 on the case to make sure it doesn't overtemp.

And a dab of 700 on the neck to make sure it gets hot enough.


From:
http://bisonballistics.com/articles/the-science-of-cartridge-brass-annealing

It is critical to understand that we are talking about annealing case
necks only. The rest of the case is work hardened during manufacturing
and left that way on purpose. It must be strong enough to contain the
pressures of firing, and annealing any part of the case except the neck
is potentially dangerous. Do not do it.

Under no circumstances should you let the case body get anywhere near
700 degrees. If you do, the case is ruined, and should be crushed and
discarded.

You cannot anneal brass in an oven! You will ruin it.

You must use another method, like a torch or possibly some sort of
inductive heater that applies the heat locally to the neck area only.

Some have suggested dipping case necks in molten lead (which melts very
near 700 degrees depending on the alloy). This works in theory, but in
practice, it's not such a hot idea. Spattering, sticky lead, and the
fact that lead is a dangerous poison make this not such a good idea.

Torches are by far the most commonly used heat sources for annealing.
They're cheap, relatively easy to use, and do the job well.

Richard fired this volley in news:r4idnW1-
:

Spattering, sticky lead, and the
fact that lead is a dangerous poison make this not such a good idea.


PIFFLE! Do you never cast bullets?
IF you're concerned with breathing lead fumes, wear a mask.

But anyway... lead doesn't melt close _enough_ to 700F to properly do the
job. Even Super Hard doesn't melt much above about 650F.

As far as "sticky" ???? You've never heard of smoking a piece; right?

Lloyd


Lloyd

In article , Lloyd
E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Richard fired this volley in news:r4idnW1-
:

Spattering, sticky lead, and the
fact that lead is a dangerous poison make this not such a good idea.


PIFFLE! Do you never cast bullets?
IF you're concerned with breathing lead fumes, wear a mask.

But anyway... lead doesn't melt close _enough_ to 700F to properly do the
job. Even Super Hard doesn't melt much above about 650F.

As far as "sticky" ???? You've never heard of smoking a piece; right?

I don't reload, but it occurs to me that one of those heat guns
intended for stripping paint and the like could work, and won't be so
likely to overheat things. Many are advertised as being adjustable in
the 500 to 700 F range.

Put cases in a shallow pan of water, heat the necks, tip the cases over
into the water.


Joe Gwinn

On 8/25/2013 7:22 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in news:r4idnW1-
:

Spattering, sticky lead, and the
fact that lead is a dangerous poison make this not such a good idea.


PIFFLE! Do you never cast bullets?
IF you're concerned with breathing lead fumes, wear a mask.

But anyway... lead doesn't melt close _enough_ to 700F to properly do the
job. Even Super Hard doesn't melt much above about 650F.

As far as "sticky" ???? You've never heard of smoking a piece; right?

Lloyd


I guess he felt it necessary to pass along the warning.

As for smoking a piece, I dunno, Lloyd.
If I did I don't remember it!

On Sun, 25 Aug 2013 10:40:31 -0500, Richard
wrote:

On 8/25/2013 7:22 AM, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
fired this volley in news:r4idnW1-
:

Spattering, sticky lead, and the
fact that lead is a dangerous poison make this not such a good idea.


PIFFLE! Do you never cast bullets?
IF you're concerned with breathing lead fumes, wear a mask.

But anyway... lead doesn't melt close _enough_ to 700F to properly do the
job. Even Super Hard doesn't melt much above about 650F.

As far as "sticky" ???? You've never heard of smoking a piece; right?

Lloyd


I guess he felt it necessary to pass along the warning.

As for smoking a piece, I dunno, Lloyd.
If I did I don't remember it!

It's so damn hard to keep them lit, too...

--
Ed Huntress

Gunner Asch on Sun, 25 Aug 2013 00:38:03 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


If you are loading with a crimp..its probably too soft. But for bench
rest shooters and those of us who shoot bolt action weapons at very
long ranges..as long as the bullet is held in the case neck while its
being loaded in the weapon and the slug is forced into the
rifling..they could be made out of toilet paper for softness.

If you are loading brass for a self loader and the ammo is going to be
banged around..that is indeed another story. But with those arms..your
recovery rate is modest, cases are often bent and dented in the case
body during the ejection cycle and are often discarded because they
are too damaged to reload easily.

You really don't want to see what an FN-FAL does to brass. We'll
I know you saw what mine did.
Sigh.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."

On Sun, 25 Aug 2013 21:28:55 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Sun, 25 Aug 2013 00:38:03 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:


If you are loading with a crimp..its probably too soft. But for bench
rest shooters and those of us who shoot bolt action weapons at very
long ranges..as long as the bullet is held in the case neck while its
being loaded in the weapon and the slug is forced into the
rifling..they could be made out of toilet paper for softness.

If you are loading brass for a self loader and the ammo is going to be
banged around..that is indeed another story. But with those arms..your
recovery rate is modest, cases are often bent and dented in the case
body during the ejection cycle and are often discarded because they
are too damaged to reload easily.

You really don't want to see what an FN-FAL does to brass. We'll
I know you saw what mine did.
Sigh.
--
pyotr filipivich
"With Age comes Wisdom. Although more often, Age travels alone."


The "several" that I owned before they became illegal in California
were quite gentle on the brass. But then I did adjust the valve in the
recoil systems properly.

Ive seen guys who didnt know what they were doing..or were unaware of
the gas valve in the forend..have rims ripped off etc etc because they
were set wide open.

Gunner

"There are no leftists in mainstream American politics.

Just two right wing parties, one hard right and one softer."
Christopher A. Lee, 8/18/2013