I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

fired this volley in
:

Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Mike, it's a frigging lemon press! G

Dump the $20 and find an arbor press for that sort of work. You'll spend
more than $20 on time and materials trying to fix it, and it won't last;
not under that sort of force. The screw exerts more side-thrust than
down force!

Lloyd

wrote in message
...
I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Grind the cracks out to a vee stop short of the thread , leave a
shoulder there, braze with brass . Might not be a bad idea to have it
buried in vermiculite and then cover it up to cool slowly when you're done .
You'll want to alternate sides , you might even keep it round enough not to
bind . Or seize ...
--
Snag
Get a shorter
cheater bar .

On 8/10/2013 9:12 PM, wrote:
...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.
...

_Braze_ it. Tighten up the crack to a few 1/1000's & let the braze wick
in. Take out screw & clean the bore really well. Good as new. Well,
almost. Order of magnitude easier than welding.

Bob

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 20:55:53 -0500, "Terry Coombs"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Grind the cracks out to a vee stop short of the thread , leave a
shoulder there, braze with brass . Might not be a bad idea to have it
buried in vermiculite and then cover it up to cool slowly when you're done .
You'll want to alternate sides , you might even keep it round enough not to
bind . Or seize ...

+1 on the v-grind, and either braze or TIG, or braze -then- TIG.
Heat to red hot first, then weld. It will allow the brass to get all
the way through the width of the cracks if you've properly fluxed it.

Otherwise, just look for a beefier press which is made to squeeze
metal, not fruit. g

--
They must find it difficult,
those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as authority.
-- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

Thats a fairly easy repair. Though to be fair..Id consider brazing it
before "welding" it. It is cast iron.......

Pull the screw.
heat the whole thing up with a rosebud. Warm it fairly slowly until
the entire thing is HOT.

Put some braze rod in the crack(s) and let it melt well along with
fluxing really really well.

While the braze is still molten (keep heating)...Clamp both halves
together with a big ass clamp..

Heat with a rosebud again until the braze melts and both halves close
up, then finish with brazing rod along the crack openings.

You may..may at this point..consider V ing the cracks and filling with
braze again. But the material is so thick that it may not be needed.

Gently back off the rosebud a little at a time until it starts to cool

Let cool ..if you can stick it in a bag of vermiculite or kitty litter
overnight..it would be a good thing and let it cool slowly. Cast iron
doesnt like fast cooling..not at all.

Tommorow...put in mill and mill a flat near the vertical center of
the threaded section on both sides through the crack..as close to the
screw as you can get.

Drill and tap each side for a long socket head capscrew

Install one of each in both sides, pinching the crack together (may
not be needed..what say you guys?)

Repaint, reinstall screw, beat oneself in head with cheater pipe
until it sinks in that cast iron isnt the same as cast steel.

And the next time you break it..it will bust someplace else and you
just repeat the process around and around until you are welding the
bolts together..at which point Id go to 6011 for the bolt welds.
Grin

Now if it snaps while cooling..paint it again and put a stripe of red
paint along both cracks and when dry, put it up on a promenent shelf
where you can see it every day. Then put the cheater pipe on the
handle for additional refreshment of that memory. And show the
grandkids. And the neighbors when they come by.

(G)

Gunner



--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

And the next time you break it..it will bust someplace else and you
just repeat the process around and around until you are welding the
bolts together..at which point Id go to 6011 for the bolt welds.


Nobody's even mentioned the grease that's sneaked into that crack while
it was growing. Probably damned-near the whole width of it is full of
grease.

Good brazing flux? Ehh... probably not...

LLoyd

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 21:50:28 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

And the next time you break it..it will bust someplace else and you
just repeat the process around and around until you are welding the
bolts together..at which point Id go to 6011 for the bolt welds.


Nobody's even mentioned the grease that's sneaked into that crack while
it was growing. Probably damned-near the whole width of it is full of
grease.

Good brazing flux? Ehh... probably not...

I'd hope he'd have stripped and degreased the living hell out of the
thing before heating to braze, don'tcha know?


--
They must find it difficult,
those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as authority.
-- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist

On 2013-08-11, wrote:
I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

I would throw it out and buy or make something else.

i

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 21:50:28 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
:

And the next time you break it..it will bust someplace else and you
just repeat the process around and around until you are welding the
bolts together..at which point Id go to 6011 for the bolt welds.


Nobody's even mentioned the grease that's sneaked into that crack while
it was growing. Probably damned-near the whole width of it is full of
grease.

Good brazing flux? Ehh... probably not...

LLoyd

Heating up with the rosebud properly will likely burn out whatever
grease is in there. And I rather suspect the 2 cracks didnt grow
until he loaded it with the cheater..so it might be pretty clean.

Shrug


--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

On 8/10/2013 10:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Now if it snaps while cooling..paint it again and put a stripe of red
paint along both cracks and when dry, put it up on a promenent shelf
where you can see it every day. Then put the cheater pipe on the
handle for additional refreshment of that memory. And show the
grandkids. And the neighbors when they come by.

(G)

Gunner




Ah yes, the trophy wall! Most shops have them.

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 04:13:43 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 8/10/2013 10:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Now if it snaps while cooling..paint it again and put a stripe of red
paint along both cracks and when dry, put it up on a promenent shelf
where you can see it every day. Then put the cheater pipe on the
handle for additional refreshment of that memory. And show the
grandkids. And the neighbors when they come by.

(G)

Gunner




Ah yes, the trophy wall! Most shops have them.


I certainly have one!!


--
""Almost all liberal behavioral tropes track the impotent rage of small
children. Thus, for example, there is also the popular tactic of
repeating some stupid, meaningless phrase a billion times" Arms for
hostages, arms for hostages, arms for hostages, it's just about sex, just
about sex, just about sex, dumb,dumb, money in politics,money in
politics, Enron, Enron, Enron. Nothing repeated with mind-numbing
frequency in all major news outlets will not be believed by some members
of the populace. It is the permanence of evil; you can't stop it." (Ann
Coulter)

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 23:22:35 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 21:50:28 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Gunner Asch fired this volley in
m:

And the next time you break it..it will bust someplace else and you
just repeat the process around and around until you are welding the
bolts together..at which point Id go to 6011 for the bolt welds.


Nobody's even mentioned the grease that's sneaked into that crack while
it was growing. Probably damned-near the whole width of it is full of
grease.

Good brazing flux? Ehh... probably not...

LLoyd

Heating up with the rosebud properly will likely burn out whatever
grease is in there. And I rather suspect the 2 cracks didnt grow
until he loaded it with the cheater..so it might be pretty clean.

Judging by the "loud crack" sound he referred to, I bet there were no
cracks until the final featherweight push on the 12' breaker bar.

The crack's clean and should weld easily, with a bit less strength.

What he needs, though, is a HF 20T air-over-hyd press, huh? That
should handle copper tubing pretty well. snort

--
They must find it difficult,
those who have taken authority as truth,
rather than truth as authority.
-- Gerald Massey, Egyptologist

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Greetings Michael,
I have experience with this type of repair that worked well. At wotk
someone pounded on the large vise and it broke through the ram that
encloses the screw. I was taking a welding class at the time so I
brought it into class to fix it. I built an open top "oven" out of
firebrick and set the vise part into it. I then heated the veed out
part to nearly red heat with a big torch. Using flux and brazing rod I
wetted the cast iron vee with the brazing rod. Once I had the surfaces
completely wetted I just filled with brazing rod. I did this repair in
about 1.5 hours and used a lot of welding gasses. This repair was done
over 20 years ago and I still use the vise. Frankly, I did the repair
for the experience, your press may not be worth it. It may just crack
somewhere else.
Eric

On 8/11/2013 5:23 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 04:13:43 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 8/10/2013 10:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Now if it snaps while cooling..paint it again and put a stripe of red
paint along both cracks and when dry, put it up on a promenent shelf
where you can see it every day. Then put the cheater pipe on the
handle for additional refreshment of that memory. And show the
grandkids. And the neighbors when they come by.

(G)

Gunner




Ah yes, the trophy wall! Most shops have them.


I certainly have one!!



I throw stuff out the window above the main workbench. It really sucks
when you hear it hit a previous contribution.

I don't know why everybody says to vee the crack. The depth of the vee
will be so much less than the frame thickness that it can't be
significant. And the braze will wick into the crack without needing a
funnel.

The link Ed posted in the "Joining Stainless Wire" thread about silver
brazing (http://www.aws.org/wj/amwelder/9-00/fundamentals.html) had a
chart showing joint strength versus joint width. The maximum was for a
joint .0015 thick!! That thickness joint had a much higher tensile
strength than the silver itself (3X). Joint strength fell off
dramatically with increasing thickness. Thus a vee will be much weaker
than a close joint.

Bob

"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
On 8/11/2013 5:23 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 04:13:43 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 8/10/2013 10:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Now if it snaps while cooling..paint it again and put a stripe of red
paint along both cracks and when dry, put it up on a promenent shelf
where you can see it every day. Then put the cheater pipe on the
handle for additional refreshment of that memory. And show the
grandkids. And the neighbors when they come by.

(G)

Gunner




Ah yes, the trophy wall! Most shops have them.


I certainly have one!!



I throw stuff out the window above the main workbench. It really sucks
when you hear it hit a previous contribution.


I often toss my mistakes into a crucible and try again ...
--
Snag

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 13:57:46 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

I don't know why everybody says to vee the crack. The depth of the vee
will be so much less than the frame thickness that it can't be
significant. And the braze will wick into the crack without needing a
funnel.

The link Ed posted in the "Joining Stainless Wire" thread about silver
brazing (http://www.aws.org/wj/amwelder/9-00/fundamentals.html) had a
chart showing joint strength versus joint width. The maximum was for a
joint .0015 thick!! That thickness joint had a much higher tensile
strength than the silver itself (3X). Joint strength fell off
dramatically with increasing thickness. Thus a vee will be much weaker
than a close joint.

Bob

Bronze brazing (actually, it's brass) is a little different. It has a
higher bulk strength and works better in fillets. But it doesn't have
the high *joint* strength of silver in close joints.

I saw that graph and I don't doubt it, but it's a little sharper than
others I've seen in the past, and the usual recommendation for silver
brazing is to have joints of 0.002" or slightly less. That's in close
agreement with the graph from H&H, which AWS re-published.

There are silver braze materials (and special bronze brazing alloys)
formulated for use in fillets but their ultimate strength isn't quite
as high. The maximum joint strength for silver brazing that's usually
quoted is 120,000 psi, for close-fitting joints. As you say, that's
close to three times the bulk strength of the material.

When you silver-braze wires, and when they're in contact in a parallel
joint, enough of the joint is within the high-strength range that the
overall joint strength is quite high.

Keep in mind that there's a distinction between silver-brazing that's
done like soldering, wherein the braze wicks into a close-fitting
joint, and what is sometimes (inaccurately) called "braze-welding,"
which is mostly a matter of wetting the material on both sides of a
joint and building up a fillet. That's how Brit race-car builders made
their tubular space frames back in the '50s and '60s. In that case
there may be some wicking but you don't count on it.

Too bad Jim Rosen isn't around these days. He's pretty knowledgable
about silver-brazing.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 13:57:46 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

I don't know why everybody says to vee the crack. The depth of the vee
will be so much less than the frame thickness that it can't be
significant. And the braze will wick into the crack without needing a
funnel.

The link Ed posted in the "Joining Stainless Wire" thread about silver
brazing (http://www.aws.org/wj/amwelder/9-00/fundamentals.html) had a
chart showing joint strength versus joint width. The maximum was for a
joint .0015 thick!! That thickness joint had a much higher tensile
strength than the silver itself (3X). Joint strength fell off
dramatically with increasing thickness. Thus a vee will be much weaker
than a close joint.

Bob
Greetings Bob,
It is very hard to get brazing to wick into cast iron. Even silver
brazing alloys. I thick it is because of all the free carbon
(graphite) present at the surface. I have brazed a lot of cast iron
and it is always a bit of a chore to get the brazing alloy to wet the
cast iron. Brazing rod typically has at least as high tensile strength
as cast iron, and typically more, in thick sections.
Eric

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 13:21:24 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 13:57:46 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

I don't know why everybody says to vee the crack. The depth of the vee
will be so much less than the frame thickness that it can't be
significant. And the braze will wick into the crack without needing a
funnel.

The link Ed posted in the "Joining Stainless Wire" thread about silver
brazing (http://www.aws.org/wj/amwelder/9-00/fundamentals.html) had a
chart showing joint strength versus joint width. The maximum was for a
joint .0015 thick!! That thickness joint had a much higher tensile
strength than the silver itself (3X). Joint strength fell off
dramatically with increasing thickness. Thus a vee will be much weaker
than a close joint.

Bob
Greetings Bob,
It is very hard to get brazing to wick into cast iron. Even silver
brazing alloys. I thick it is because of all the free carbon
(graphite) present at the surface. I have brazed a lot of cast iron
and it is always a bit of a chore to get the brazing alloy to wet the
cast iron. Brazing rod typically has at least as high tensile strength
as cast iron, and typically more, in thick sections.
Eric

Wetting is a big issue, and graphite flakes or smeared graphite on the
surface is a major cause of trouble.

But it's only one issue of several, when it comes to brazing cast
iron. Here's an article from the British journal _Welding and Metal
Fabrication_ from 1980 that I remember using as a source for an
article I wrote a year or two later:

http://tinyurl.com/k8fzynj

It covers it well, although it doesn't address repairs. You probably
could find an alloy available in the US that has the same properties
as the one discussed in the article.

A few notes: This casting is almost certainly gray iron. Where the
article discusses nodular iron, that's what we mostly call "ductile
iron" in the US.

And, finally, I think this particular job is a waste of time and
money, as others have commented. g It could be a worthwhile learning
experiment, however. But don't count on finding any brazing alloy or
flux that could allow the braze to wick into that crack without
opening it up first.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:05:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Greetings Michael,
I have experience with this type of repair that worked well. At wotk
someone pounded on the large vise and it broke through the ram that
encloses the screw. I was taking a welding class at the time so I
brought it into class to fix it. I built an open top "oven" out of
firebrick and set the vise part into it. I then heated the veed out
part to nearly red heat with a big torch. Using flux and brazing rod I
wetted the cast iron vee with the brazing rod. Once I had the surfaces
completely wetted I just filled with brazing rod. I did this repair in
about 1.5 hours and used a lot of welding gasses. This repair was done
over 20 years ago and I still use the vise. Frankly, I did the repair
for the experience, your press may not be worth it. It may just crack
somewhere else.
Eric
A similar method, but likely stronger, is to pre-heat as above and
then weld with "ni-rod" (high nickel) or stainless steel wire. Makes
a very strong and permanent repair - the weld and the absorption layer
around it are stronger than the base casting, as the alloy from the
Ni-Rod or stainless "draws out" into the casting. Let it cool slowly
and naturally when finished. I've used this method on numerous
machine (agricultural) and tractor parts over the last several decades
and I'm not aware of any of the repairs failing.

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 22:15:16 -0500, Ignoramus11246
wrote:

On 2013-08-11, wrote:
I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

I would throw it out and buy or make something else.


That's the one I am going with. I can almost certainly do the job in
question using my big-ass $5 garage-sale vise. It was good enough for
embossing.

Thanks to all for their contributions

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 19:01:05 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:05:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Greetings Michael,
I have experience with this type of repair that worked well. At wotk
someone pounded on the large vise and it broke through the ram that
encloses the screw. I was taking a welding class at the time so I
brought it into class to fix it. I built an open top "oven" out of
firebrick and set the vise part into it. I then heated the veed out
part to nearly red heat with a big torch. Using flux and brazing rod I
wetted the cast iron vee with the brazing rod. Once I had the surfaces
completely wetted I just filled with brazing rod. I did this repair in
about 1.5 hours and used a lot of welding gasses. This repair was done
over 20 years ago and I still use the vise. Frankly, I did the repair
for the experience, your press may not be worth it. It may just crack
somewhere else.
Eric
A similar method, but likely stronger, is to pre-heat as above and
then weld with "ni-rod" (high nickel) or stainless steel wire. Makes
a very strong and permanent repair - the weld and the absorption layer
around it are stronger than the base casting, as the alloy from the
Ni-Rod or stainless "draws out" into the casting. Let it cool slowly
and naturally when finished. I've used this method on numerous
machine (agricultural) and tractor parts over the last several decades
and I'm not aware of any of the repairs failing.
Greetings Clare,
Your method described above will certainly result in a repair that is
stronger than the parent metal. Brazing rod is as strong as or
stronger than the cast iron parent metal. I'm talking tensile
strength. In a wear or impact situation welding with ni-rod is
certainly a better solution. When you say "draws out" I assume you
mean the capillary action where the melting metal penetrates the
casting between the crystals. This also accurs when brazing and silver
soldering and is one of the reasons why silver soldering and brazing
can result in such strong joints. When brazing cast iron I'm not sure
how well the brazing metal penetrates into the casting.
Eric

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:37:38 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 19:01:05 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:05:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Greetings Michael,
I have experience with this type of repair that worked well. At wotk
someone pounded on the large vise and it broke through the ram that
encloses the screw. I was taking a welding class at the time so I
brought it into class to fix it. I built an open top "oven" out of
firebrick and set the vise part into it. I then heated the veed out
part to nearly red heat with a big torch. Using flux and brazing rod I
wetted the cast iron vee with the brazing rod. Once I had the surfaces
completely wetted I just filled with brazing rod. I did this repair in
about 1.5 hours and used a lot of welding gasses. This repair was done
over 20 years ago and I still use the vise. Frankly, I did the repair
for the experience, your press may not be worth it. It may just crack
somewhere else.
Eric
A similar method, but likely stronger, is to pre-heat as above and
then weld with "ni-rod" (high nickel) or stainless steel wire. Makes
a very strong and permanent repair - the weld and the absorption layer
around it are stronger than the base casting, as the alloy from the
Ni-Rod or stainless "draws out" into the casting. Let it cool slowly
and naturally when finished. I've used this method on numerous
machine (agricultural) and tractor parts over the last several decades
and I'm not aware of any of the repairs failing.
Greetings Clare,
Your method described above will certainly result in a repair that is
stronger than the parent metal. Brazing rod is as strong as or
stronger than the cast iron parent metal. I'm talking tensile
strength. In a wear or impact situation welding with ni-rod is
certainly a better solution. When you say "draws out" I assume you
mean the capillary action where the melting metal penetrates the
casting between the crystals. This also accurs when brazing and silver
soldering and is one of the reasons why silver soldering and brazing
can result in such strong joints. When brazing cast iron I'm not sure
how well the brazing metal penetrates into the casting.
Eric

FWIW, and I don't want to obscure the practical issues with
technicalities, neither brazing nor soldering involve any penetration
between crystals of the parent metals. Unless you're dealing wth
something that's porous to begin with, such as sintered powder metal,
the action occurs within a few microinches of the parent metal's
surface.

Cast iron and the other metals that are usually brazed or soldered are
not porous. The bonding occurs at the boundary, where the parent metal
and molten braze metal form an extremely thin layer of alloy (in broad
terms) by diffusion, usually. This "alloy" is either a solid solution
(brazing, with a few exceptions) or intermetallic compounds
(soldering, with a few exceptions). Solid solutions are atomic-level
alloys that typically are very strong. Intermetallics are alloys that
generally have a different atomic lattice structure than the parent
metal or the braze or solder, and they can be hard-crystalline and
very brittle. In general, you want to avoid them, and you can minimize
them by avoiding overheating the joint.

This gets complicated, obviously, but it's probably a good idea to
dispell the idea that there is any "drawing" into the parent metal
going on. Of course, the capillary action of the liquid braze or
solder flowing into the joint can be thought of as "drawing," but it
ends at the parent metal surface.

There is a misconception about cast iron being porous because it *can*
be porous at the very surface, where graphite flakes are exposed. As
they wear away, pockets are left in the surface and they can hold oil.
But these pockets do not penetrate the metal. They're just microinches
deep, on the exposed surface. Keep in mind that 2% or 3% carbon
content by weight, which is typical of gray iron, means that, by
volume, the material is 10% graphite. That's a lot of flakes, and they
leave a lot of surface pockets as they're worn away. But cast iron
does not "wick" braze, solder, or even oil, into the parent metal.

When you abrade an oily cast iron surface, such as when you grind or
sand it to clean it, you smear both the oil and the graphite around on
the surface. You can't just abrade cast iron and expect to get a good
solder or braze bond because of that.

Anyway, we now return you to practical issues. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

In article ,
wrote:
A similar method, but likely stronger, is to pre-heat as above and
then weld with "ni-rod" (high nickel) or stainless steel wire. Makes
a very strong and permanent repair - the weld and the absorption layer
around it are stronger than the base casting, as the alloy from the
Ni-Rod or stainless "draws out" into the casting. Let it cool slowly
and naturally when finished. I've used this method on numerous
machine (agricultural) and tractor parts over the last several decades
and I'm not aware of any of the repairs failing.

Less likely to warp something and also more fuel efficient is the
technique I was taught by the Ag Eng welding shop in college. Cold
Welding with Nickel.

Grind it out to a V (leaving enough broken cast to register it (or the
threads, and a little bit, in this case), drill the ends if a crack. Lay
a short bead of nickel rod (55 or 99 Ni) and peen it as it cools. Lay
more short beads elsewhere (not continuous nor contiguous at least until
you return to the area later in the process and fill in between older
sections to connect them), peening each time. The peening stretches the
nickel so it does not pull the casting as it cools. If the work gets
warm enough that you can't leave your hand on it, go have a cup of
coffee, or lunch. Keep at it until you have filled the whole thing.
Slow, but not as slow as preheating a large casting, and does not
required stripping parts away from the immediate work zone as preheating
does.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:37:38 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 19:01:05 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:05:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Greetings Michael,
I have experience with this type of repair that worked well. At wotk
someone pounded on the large vise and it broke through the ram that
encloses the screw. I was taking a welding class at the time so I
brought it into class to fix it. I built an open top "oven" out of
firebrick and set the vise part into it. I then heated the veed out
part to nearly red heat with a big torch. Using flux and brazing rod I
wetted the cast iron vee with the brazing rod. Once I had the surfaces
completely wetted I just filled with brazing rod. I did this repair in
about 1.5 hours and used a lot of welding gasses. This repair was done
over 20 years ago and I still use the vise. Frankly, I did the repair
for the experience, your press may not be worth it. It may just crack
somewhere else.
Eric
A similar method, but likely stronger, is to pre-heat as above and
then weld with "ni-rod" (high nickel) or stainless steel wire. Makes
a very strong and permanent repair - the weld and the absorption layer
around it are stronger than the base casting, as the alloy from the
Ni-Rod or stainless "draws out" into the casting. Let it cool slowly
and naturally when finished. I've used this method on numerous
machine (agricultural) and tractor parts over the last several decades
and I'm not aware of any of the repairs failing.
Greetings Clare,
Your method described above will certainly result in a repair that is
stronger than the parent metal. Brazing rod is as strong as or
stronger than the cast iron parent metal. I'm talking tensile
strength. In a wear or impact situation welding with ni-rod is
certainly a better solution. When you say "draws out" I assume you
mean the capillary action where the melting metal penetrates the
casting between the crystals. This also accurs when brazing and silver
soldering and is one of the reasons why silver soldering and brazing
can result in such strong joints. When brazing cast iron I'm not sure
how well the brazing metal penetrates into the casting.
Eric
I've grazed castings too, with mixed results - and silver brazed
things as critical as distributor drive gears. Until we figured out we
needed to use a wooden alignment pin to install the head on the R12
rallye car we broke 3 didtributor drive gears - and there were no more
available locally - so I ground the parts of 2 damaged gears to fit
and silver brazed them together. It stood up for 3 years of
competetive rallye driving and another 3 years of my brother thrashing
it as his every-day whipping boy. It didn't break.

The "drawing out" is more than capilliary action - it is actually
"alloying" the puddle, making a maleable transition from the base
metal to the weldment and back to the base metal which takes the shock
better than the base cast and "absorbs" the shock - preventing the
brittle cast from breaking as easily under shock. Brass doesn't
appear to do this as well. I've ended up grinding out brazed repairs
and redoing them with stainless (tigged) on several parts - and
stainless welding even permanently repairs cracked exhaust manifolds -
which are often high nickel castings to start with and do not last
long when brazed..

Welding with mild steel rod causes a brittle zone on both sides of the
weld, where the carbon has been "drawn" out of the casting, which
makes the part succeptible to breakage under even low levels of shock
(and even vibration in some cases).

Just my experience, going back 45 years and proven as recently as last
year.

On Sunday, August 11, 2013 8:22:24 PM UTC-4, Ed Huntress wrote:



When you abrade an oily cast iron surface, such as when you grind or

sand it to clean it, you smear both the oil and the graphite around on

the surface. You can't just abrade cast iron and expect to get a good

solder or braze bond because of that.



Anyway, we now return you to practical issues. d8-)



--

Ed Huntress

First my recommendation is to repair the press as a learning exercise. Repairing it will take too much time to be really worthwhile.

But here is something that some one might try. Using a neon sign transformer to generate plasma to clean the surface of cast iron that has be abraded.. It is not something that I have tried. I just have not needed to weld or braze any cast iron since I thought of using plasma. But the plasma from a neon sign transformer ought to oxidise both grease and grapbite. Using plasma to clean grass surfaces before mirror coating is well known. But I have not heard of anyone using it to clean cast iron surfaces.

If anyone tries this, please post your results. It should work, but one experiment is worth ten thousand conjectures.

Dan

On 8/11/2013 2:53 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
"Tom Gardner" Mars@Tacks wrote in message
...
On 8/11/2013 5:23 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 04:13:43 -0400, Tom Gardner Mars@Tacks wrote:

On 8/10/2013 10:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:

Now if it snaps while cooling..paint it again and put a stripe of red
paint along both cracks and when dry, put it up on a promenent shelf
where you can see it every day. Then put the cheater pipe on the
handle for additional refreshment of that memory. And show the
grandkids. And the neighbors when they come by.

(G)

Gunner




Ah yes, the trophy wall! Most shops have them.


I certainly have one!!



I throw stuff out the window above the main workbench. It really sucks
when you hear it hit a previous contribution.


I often toss my mistakes into a crucible and try again ...



Cheater!

On Saturday, August 10, 2013 6:12:15 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6

and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to

flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There

was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:



http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/



No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely

leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?

My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.



Thanks,



Michael Koblic,

Campbell River, BC

check out http://atbayappliance.com/news-and-tips/ for appliance repair news and tips from a reliable company in California.

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 20:22:24 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:37:38 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 19:01:05 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:05:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Greetings Michael,
I have experience with this type of repair that worked well. At wotk
someone pounded on the large vise and it broke through the ram that
encloses the screw. I was taking a welding class at the time so I
brought it into class to fix it. I built an open top "oven" out of
firebrick and set the vise part into it. I then heated the veed out
part to nearly red heat with a big torch. Using flux and brazing rod I
wetted the cast iron vee with the brazing rod. Once I had the surfaces
completely wetted I just filled with brazing rod. I did this repair in
about 1.5 hours and used a lot of welding gasses. This repair was done
over 20 years ago and I still use the vise. Frankly, I did the repair
for the experience, your press may not be worth it. It may just crack
somewhere else.
Eric
A similar method, but likely stronger, is to pre-heat as above and
then weld with "ni-rod" (high nickel) or stainless steel wire. Makes
a very strong and permanent repair - the weld and the absorption layer
around it are stronger than the base casting, as the alloy from the
Ni-Rod or stainless "draws out" into the casting. Let it cool slowly
and naturally when finished. I've used this method on numerous
machine (agricultural) and tractor parts over the last several decades
and I'm not aware of any of the repairs failing.
Greetings Clare,
Your method described above will certainly result in a repair that is
stronger than the parent metal. Brazing rod is as strong as or
stronger than the cast iron parent metal. I'm talking tensile
strength. In a wear or impact situation welding with ni-rod is
certainly a better solution. When you say "draws out" I assume you
mean the capillary action where the melting metal penetrates the
casting between the crystals. This also accurs when brazing and silver
soldering and is one of the reasons why silver soldering and brazing
can result in such strong joints. When brazing cast iron I'm not sure
how well the brazing metal penetrates into the casting.
Eric

FWIW, and I don't want to obscure the practical issues with
technicalities, neither brazing nor soldering involve any penetration
between crystals of the parent metals. Unless you're dealing wth
something that's porous to begin with, such as sintered powder metal,
the action occurs within a few microinches of the parent metal's
surface.

Cast iron and the other metals that are usually brazed or soldered are
not porous. The bonding occurs at the boundary, where the parent metal
and molten braze metal form an extremely thin layer of alloy (in broad
terms) by diffusion, usually. This "alloy" is either a solid solution
(brazing, with a few exceptions) or intermetallic compounds
(soldering, with a few exceptions). Solid solutions are atomic-level
alloys that typically are very strong. Intermetallics are alloys that
generally have a different atomic lattice structure than the parent
metal or the braze or solder, and they can be hard-crystalline and
very brittle. In general, you want to avoid them, and you can minimize
them by avoiding overheating the joint.

This gets complicated, obviously, but it's probably a good idea to
dispell the idea that there is any "drawing" into the parent metal
going on. Of course, the capillary action of the liquid braze or
solder flowing into the joint can be thought of as "drawing," but it
ends at the parent metal surface.

There is a misconception about cast iron being porous because it *can*
be porous at the very surface, where graphite flakes are exposed. As
they wear away, pockets are left in the surface and they can hold oil.
But these pockets do not penetrate the metal. They're just microinches
deep, on the exposed surface. Keep in mind that 2% or 3% carbon
content by weight, which is typical of gray iron, means that, by
volume, the material is 10% graphite. That's a lot of flakes, and they
leave a lot of surface pockets as they're worn away. But cast iron
does not "wick" braze, solder, or even oil, into the parent metal.

When you abrade an oily cast iron surface, such as when you grind or
sand it to clean it, you smear both the oil and the graphite around on
the surface. You can't just abrade cast iron and expect to get a good
solder or braze bond because of that.

Anyway, we now return you to practical issues. d8-)
So Ed, when I see silver solder or brazing rod in the steel when I
mill away the silver solder or brazing rod at the surface I am not
seeing the result of capillary action but instead a sort of alloy? I
have done this more than once, milled away a joint that had been
silver soldered or brazed. With silver solder especially I have seen
where the solder appears to penetrate below the surface by wicking.
And When I have had to weld on a jointg that had been previously
brazed or silver soldered I had to remove metal below the original
surface in order to get the solder or braze that is below the original
surface. And it is obvious when this hasn't been accomplished, the
puddle starts to boil. I learned years ago that this was because of
capillary action pulling the soldering alloy into the parent metal. I
guess it's time for more learning. Or you could be wrong. Which
doesn't seem to happen very often in your posts here. Either way I'll
find out.
Eric

On Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:58:31 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 20:22:24 -0400, Ed Huntress
wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 16:37:38 -0700, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 19:01:05 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 11 Aug 2013 10:05:35 -0700, wrote:

On Sat, 10 Aug 2013 18:12:15 -0700, wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.

Thanks,

Michael Koblic,
Campbell River, BC
Greetings Michael,
I have experience with this type of repair that worked well. At wotk
someone pounded on the large vise and it broke through the ram that
encloses the screw. I was taking a welding class at the time so I
brought it into class to fix it. I built an open top "oven" out of
firebrick and set the vise part into it. I then heated the veed out
part to nearly red heat with a big torch. Using flux and brazing rod I
wetted the cast iron vee with the brazing rod. Once I had the surfaces
completely wetted I just filled with brazing rod. I did this repair in
about 1.5 hours and used a lot of welding gasses. This repair was done
over 20 years ago and I still use the vise. Frankly, I did the repair
for the experience, your press may not be worth it. It may just crack
somewhere else.
Eric
A similar method, but likely stronger, is to pre-heat as above and
then weld with "ni-rod" (high nickel) or stainless steel wire. Makes
a very strong and permanent repair - the weld and the absorption layer
around it are stronger than the base casting, as the alloy from the
Ni-Rod or stainless "draws out" into the casting. Let it cool slowly
and naturally when finished. I've used this method on numerous
machine (agricultural) and tractor parts over the last several decades
and I'm not aware of any of the repairs failing.
Greetings Clare,
Your method described above will certainly result in a repair that is
stronger than the parent metal. Brazing rod is as strong as or
stronger than the cast iron parent metal. I'm talking tensile
strength. In a wear or impact situation welding with ni-rod is
certainly a better solution. When you say "draws out" I assume you
mean the capillary action where the melting metal penetrates the
casting between the crystals. This also accurs when brazing and silver
soldering and is one of the reasons why silver soldering and brazing
can result in such strong joints. When brazing cast iron I'm not sure
how well the brazing metal penetrates into the casting.
Eric

FWIW, and I don't want to obscure the practical issues with
technicalities, neither brazing nor soldering involve any penetration
between crystals of the parent metals. Unless you're dealing wth
something that's porous to begin with, such as sintered powder metal,
the action occurs within a few microinches of the parent metal's
surface.

Cast iron and the other metals that are usually brazed or soldered are
not porous. The bonding occurs at the boundary, where the parent metal
and molten braze metal form an extremely thin layer of alloy (in broad
terms) by diffusion, usually. This "alloy" is either a solid solution
(brazing, with a few exceptions) or intermetallic compounds
(soldering, with a few exceptions). Solid solutions are atomic-level
alloys that typically are very strong. Intermetallics are alloys that
generally have a different atomic lattice structure than the parent
metal or the braze or solder, and they can be hard-crystalline and
very brittle. In general, you want to avoid them, and you can minimize
them by avoiding overheating the joint.

This gets complicated, obviously, but it's probably a good idea to
dispell the idea that there is any "drawing" into the parent metal
going on. Of course, the capillary action of the liquid braze or
solder flowing into the joint can be thought of as "drawing," but it
ends at the parent metal surface.

There is a misconception about cast iron being porous because it *can*
be porous at the very surface, where graphite flakes are exposed. As
they wear away, pockets are left in the surface and they can hold oil.
But these pockets do not penetrate the metal. They're just microinches
deep, on the exposed surface. Keep in mind that 2% or 3% carbon
content by weight, which is typical of gray iron, means that, by
volume, the material is 10% graphite. That's a lot of flakes, and they
leave a lot of surface pockets as they're worn away. But cast iron
does not "wick" braze, solder, or even oil, into the parent metal.

When you abrade an oily cast iron surface, such as when you grind or
sand it to clean it, you smear both the oil and the graphite around on
the surface. You can't just abrade cast iron and expect to get a good
solder or braze bond because of that.

Anyway, we now return you to practical issues. d8-)
So Ed, when I see silver solder or brazing rod in the steel when I
mill away the silver solder or brazing rod at the surface I am not
seeing the result of capillary action but instead a sort of alloy? I
have done this more than once, milled away a joint that had been
silver soldered or brazed. With silver solder especially I have seen
where the solder appears to penetrate below the surface by wicking.
And When I have had to weld on a jointg that had been previously
brazed or silver soldered I had to remove metal below the original
surface in order to get the solder or braze that is below the original
surface. And it is obvious when this hasn't been accomplished, the
puddle starts to boil. I learned years ago that this was because of
capillary action pulling the soldering alloy into the parent metal. I
guess it's time for more learning. Or you could be wrong. Which
doesn't seem to happen very often in your posts here. Either way I'll
find out.
Eric

My memory is not completely reliable these days, and I studied brazing
over 30 years ago, but I think I've explained it correctly. Also, from
memory, anything more than an extremely thin (like, maybe a thou or
so) alloyed depth produces a weaker joint. That's the result of
overheating or soaking for too long at the brazing temperature.

I'll look it up for you if you want, because it wouldn't hurt me to
refresh my memory, but I think you can find enough in _Brazing_, the
AWS's technical bible on the subject, to satisfy your question. I used
to talk to the author a lot when I was writing about it and there's no
doubt that Schwartz is The Man on brazing.

Unfortunately, the book costs $140. Fortunately, most of it is
available on Google Books. The questions you're asking are answered in
the first dozen pages or so, which appear to be contiguous. To see
what Schwartz says about capillary action on the visible pages as well
as the invisible ones, search on "capillary" in the search box.

Here's the full URL, which will be worth keeping:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XSG...page&q&f=false

Here's a Tiny URL of the same:

http://tinyurl.com/k543xzm

Brazing is simple and reliable, and much stronger than most people
realize. But it also is very tricky when you work with materials other
than the usual standards: steel, copper, brass, etc. Cast iron and
aluminum are tricky. And there are many special brazing materials for
special applications, which _Brazing_ covers quite well.

One last point: There are occassions when you get intergranular
penetration. It is a bad thing, and it's limited mostly to special
diffusion-bonding brazing materials that contain bismuth. That's out
of our realm -- it's an aerospace thing, mostly -- but I don't want to
confuse you by saying it doesn't happen. It just isn't something we're
likely to encounter. And when it happens, the joint often is shot.

Good luck, and let me know if you want me to do any more digging.

--
Ed Huntress

wrote:

I bought a small press in a junk shop for $20. I mounted it on a 2x6
and let it collect dust for a year before I started to use it to
flatten sections of copper pipe. It did very well until today: There
was an ominous sound and the frame cracked:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2768312...7635013299389/

No way will I admit using a cheater bar and even if I did I barely
leaned on it. Anyway...Can this be repaired or is this thing done for?
My understanding of welding cast iron is that it is not a free lunch.


It didn't have enough paint to keep it from cracking. ;-)


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

Terry Coombs wrote:

I often toss my mistakes into a crucible and try again ...


Hiding the evidence?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.