On 2012-10-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

[ ... ]

I have some crap tools, but I didn't buy them. They were in the
bottom of free boxes of junk electronics I picked up for parts. Early
Japanese imports that make everything at HF look like they are made for
top notch machinists. One of these days I'll dig them out & take
photos.

I remember those days. Drill bits made of "butter steel" and
the like.

But the Japanese (who probably already had really good tools for
use in their own industries) were making really nice precision cameras
and such back then.

So -- there may be hope for the Chinese and even the Indian
tools over time.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:

On 2012-10-06, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

[ ... ]

I have some crap tools, but I didn't buy them. They were in the
bottom of free boxes of junk electronics I picked up for parts. Early
Japanese imports that make everything at HF look like they are made for
top notch machinists. One of these days I'll dig them out & take
photos.

I remember those days. Drill bits made of "butter steel" and
the like.

But the Japanese (who probably already had really good tools for
use in their own industries) were making really nice precision cameras
and such back then.

So -- there may be hope for the Chinese and even the Indian
tools over time.


Some of their hardware is already fairly good. The rest has a ways to
go, but they seem to be making progress.

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:57:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What kind of craftsman owns crappy tools? ;-)

Those in need of better tools?

So they can keep doing crappy work?

No, true craftsmen don't need all those silly, overpriced green-
colored tools to create works of art. They can do it with HF tools if
that's what's handy. Leave 'em be, will ya, guys?

--
You never hear anyone say, 'Yeah, but it's a dry cold.'
-- Charles A. Budreau

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 16:00:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 04:30:52 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" ? on Sat, 06 Oct 2012
02:02:30 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
?
wrote:
?? ?
?? That is the woodworking newsgroup. I gave it up years ago -
?? too much yap about crappy tools
?
? Poor craftstmen always blame their tools.

But sometimes, it is the crappy tool.


What kind of craftsman owns crappy tools? ;-)

What craftsman has never made a mistake in purchasing? Ya buys yer
tools and ya takes yer chances. The crappy tools become backups once
you come to your senses. Or not.

I have a Makita impact driver but my old Ryobi drill motor is the
second one I've owned because they work so damned well for so little
money.

Ofttimes, the Ryobi will be used to drill pilots and the impact does
the work.

OTOH, there are Sears tools and Sears horsepower ratings...


I have some crap tools, but I didn't buy them. They were in the
bottom of free boxes of junk electronics I picked up for parts. Early
Japanese imports that make everything at HF look like they are made for
top notch machinists. One of these days I'll dig them out & take
photos.

Wanna see my 45-degree compression Japanese drillbit? I found it
again the other day. Note the precision twist... It's from the late
'60s, I believe. It was rather startling to feel it deform that day,
but what I found afterward was the most startling.
http://www.homeandgardenhandyman.com...seDrillbit.jpg
The rust is from it sitting on my sink while I did dishes.

Show me yours, boys and girls! minds outta the gutter

--
You never hear anyone say, 'Yeah, but it's a dry cold.'
-- Charles A. Budreau

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 16:03:57 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


"David R. Birch" wrote:

On 10/6/2012 1:02 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

wrote:

That is the woodworking newsgroup. I gave it up years ago -
too much yap about crappy tools


Poor craftstmen always blame their tools.

Sounds like the voice of management.

I prefer "a workman is only as good as his tools". I've worked for a few
places that expected quality work from worn out or just plain poor
quality tooling. Garbage in, garbage out.


That's a personal choice. I've left companies like that and found
work where they gave a damn about quality.

I read an article about some custom work being done in China recently.
It repeated the warnings that you must absolutely specify what the
item will be used for. Their engineers will produce anything you want
but you have to tell the salesmen every single little detail in order
of precedence or they might give you something very inexpensive which
will work exactly as you specified but no better, and it will die on a
simple job which it should have been specified for, had you had your
ducks in a row. It's a matter of honor for them, so be exceedingly
precise in what you ask for. They'll damned well give it to you.
If you don't specify that quality is #1, you might get butter steel.

A whole lot of crap tools happened onto the market when a few people
said only "it should be able to do this and I want it done cheap."

--
You never hear anyone say, 'Yeah, but it's a dry cold.'
-- Charles A. Budreau

On Oct 5, 11:02*pm, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:
wrote:

* * That is the woodworking newsgroup. I gave it up years ago -
too much yap about crappy tools

* *Poor craftstmen always blame their tools.

Poor craftsman never come up with innovative ideas and instead resort
to trite sayings like:

"Poor craftsman always blame their tools."

On 2012-10-06, DoN. Nichols wrote:
If you want to see just how much of a mess burning a liter of
Vactra No. 2 makes, take a look he

http://www.d-and-d.com/DISASTER/SHOP-1/index.html

I can't really spend much time in there with my asthma and all
the burnt oil and plastic fumes. (Including whatever the leftover from
burning Teflon insulation may happen to be.)

DoN, thanks a lot for bringing those pictures.

Based on your story, I added a cron job to E-Stop my Bridgeport
Interact every day at 6pm.

I do not want it to be left "up" and forgotten for possibly days, as
in on weekend.

When E-stopped, there is NO power to the lube pump, servos, DC drives
etc.

i

Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 15:57:17 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Gunner wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

What kind of craftsman owns crappy tools? ;-)

Those in need of better tools?

So they can keep doing crappy work?

No, true craftsmen don't need all those silly, overpriced green-
colored tools to create works of art. They can do it with HF tools if
that's what's handy. Leave 'em be, will ya, guys?


About half my tools are from HF, but I look them over before buying
them. I always favored Xcelite for electronics, until 'Cooper Group'
bought them.

Larry Jaques wrote:

I read an article about some custom work being done in China recently.
It repeated the warnings that you must absolutely specify what the
item will be used for. Their engineers will produce anything you want
but you have to tell the salesmen every single little detail in order
of precedence or they might give you something very inexpensive which
will work exactly as you specified but no better, and it will die on a
simple job which it should have been specified for, had you had your
ducks in a row. It's a matter of honor for them, so be exceedingly
precise in what you ask for. They'll damned well give it to you.
If you don't specify that quality is #1, you might get butter steel.

A whole lot of crap tools happened onto the market when a few people
said only "it should be able to do this and I want it done cheap."


Like the new Iphone? ;-)

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 20:32:52 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 16:00:34 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Larry Jaques wrote:

On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 04:30:52 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


pyotr filipivich wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" ? on Sat, 06 Oct 2012
02:02:30 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
?
wrote:
?? ?
?? That is the woodworking newsgroup. I gave it up years ago -
?? too much yap about crappy tools
?
? Poor craftstmen always blame their tools.

But sometimes, it is the crappy tool.


What kind of craftsman owns crappy tools? ;-)

What craftsman has never made a mistake in purchasing? Ya buys yer
tools and ya takes yer chances. The crappy tools become backups once
you come to your senses. Or not.

I have a Makita impact driver but my old Ryobi drill motor is the
second one I've owned because they work so damned well for so little
money.

Ofttimes, the Ryobi will be used to drill pilots and the impact does
the work.

OTOH, there are Sears tools and Sears horsepower ratings...


I have some crap tools, but I didn't buy them. They were in the
bottom of free boxes of junk electronics I picked up for parts. Early
Japanese imports that make everything at HF look like they are made for
top notch machinists. One of these days I'll dig them out & take
photos.

Wanna see my 45-degree compression Japanese drillbit? I found it
again the other day. Note the precision twist... It's from the late
'60s, I believe. It was rather startling to feel it deform that day,
but what I found afterward was the most startling.
http://www.homeandgardenhandyman.com...seDrillbit.jpg
The rust is from it sitting on my sink while I did dishes.

Show me yours, boys and girls! minds outta the gutter


I bought a set much like that once in the late 70s. Didnt bend it..but
it sure turned int into a reamer when it unwound the flutes

Gunner

--
Adde cruorem stultitiae, atque ignem gladio scruta
To your folly add bloodshed, and stir the fire with the sword (Horace)

On 2012-10-07, Ignoramus14555 wrote:
On 2012-10-06, DoN. Nichols wrote:
If you want to see just how much of a mess burning a liter of
Vactra No. 2 makes, take a look he

http://www.d-and-d.com/DISASTER/SHOP-1/index.html

I can't really spend much time in there with my asthma and all
the burnt oil and plastic fumes. (Including whatever the leftover from
burning Teflon insulation may happen to be.)

DoN, thanks a lot for bringing those pictures.

Based on your story, I added a cron job to E-Stop my Bridgeport
Interact every day at 6pm.

Good plan -- as long as you never expect to use it through that
period. :-)

I do not want it to be left "up" and forgotten for possibly days, as
in on weekend.

When E-stopped, there is NO power to the lube pump, servos, DC drives
etc.

That was the plan for this. But I had a box with switches to
enable various things during testing. (Everything is controlled by sold
state relays.)

The reason which I *had* for switching off the lube pump was
experience with an Anilam conversion of a Taiwanese Bridgeport clone
which we had at work. If the controller box was left on, the lube pump
would run all night, or all weekend, and we would find a puddle in the
base of the machine -- all wasted Vacra No. 2.

I also planned a timer so the lube pump would have to be on for
fifteen minutes (the cycle time) before the servo amps and the spindle
motor's VFD would be enabled.

I'm not sure, but I *think* that the fire got started rather
quickly after I left the room. (I smelled nothing before I left, and it
was just a few minutes accepting a plate of food from my wife in the
kitchen and then heading upstairs when I smelled the fire.)

The main trick (assuming that you have an equally old lube pump)
is to make sure that there is nothing flamable near it. There was a
long cardboard box, and the protective cover from a fluorescent fixture
not yet fully installed) leaning against it, and bumped by the table
during test drives with a pot (also in the box) controlling the servo
amps. It caught fire and carried it down to the floor below the lube
pump.

I think that without the path to the floor, the fire on top of
the pump would have simply burned itself out without having lit off the
contents of the reservoir.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2012-10-07, Gunner wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 20:32:52 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Wanna see my 45-degree compression Japanese drillbit? I found it
again the other day. Note the precision twist... It's from the late
'60s, I believe. It was rather startling to feel it deform that day,
but what I found afterward was the most startling.
http://www.homeandgardenhandyman.com...seDrillbit.jpg
The rust is from it sitting on my sink while I did dishes.

Yep -- early Japanese "butter steel" drill bits.

Hmm ... Oxwall -- the vendor of sets of butter steel
screwdrivers, too. :-)

Was this in a hand-held drill motor, or in a drill press? (Or
perhaps and "eggbeater" drill?)

Ever try to duplicate it on other sizes?

Show me yours, boys and girls! minds outta the gutter


I bought a set much like that once in the late 70s. Didnt bend it..but
it sure turned int into a reamer when it unwound the flutes

:-)

The one shown above got a reverse twist between the bend and the
shank. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 7 Oct 2012 20:05:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-10-07, Gunner wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 20:32:52 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Wanna see my 45-degree compression Japanese drillbit? I found it
again the other day. Note the precision twist... It's from the late
'60s, I believe. It was rather startling to feel it deform that day,
but what I found afterward was the most startling.
http://www.homeandgardenhandyman.com...seDrillbit.jpg
The rust is from it sitting on my sink while I did dishes.

Yep -- early Japanese "butter steel" drill bits.

Hmm ... Oxwall -- the vendor of sets of butter steel
screwdrivers, too. :-)

Was this in a hand-held drill motor, or in a drill press? (Or
perhaps and "eggbeater" drill?)

Black and Decker 3/8" VSR drill.


Ever try to duplicate it on other sizes?

I decided that the set was probably somewhat uniformly ****, so, no.


Show me yours, boys and girls! minds outta the gutter


I bought a set much like that once in the late 70s. Didnt bend it..but
it sure turned int into a reamer when it unwound the flutes

:-)

The one shown above got a reverse twist between the bend and the
shank. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Energy and persistence alter all things.
--Benjamin Franklin

On 7 Oct 2012 20:05:35 GMT, "DoN. Nichols"
wrote:

On 2012-10-07, Gunner wrote:
On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 20:32:52 -0700, Larry Jaques
wrote:

Wanna see my 45-degree compression Japanese drillbit? I found it
again the other day. Note the precision twist... It's from the late
'60s, I believe. It was rather startling to feel it deform that day,
but what I found afterward was the most startling.
http://www.homeandgardenhandyman.com...seDrillbit.jpg
The rust is from it sitting on my sink while I did dishes.

Yep -- early Japanese "butter steel" drill bits.

Hmm ... Oxwall -- the vendor of sets of butter steel
screwdrivers, too. :-)

Was this in a hand-held drill motor, or in a drill press? (Or
perhaps and "eggbeater" drill?)

Ever try to duplicate it on other sizes?

Show me yours, boys and girls! minds outta the gutter


I bought a set much like that once in the late 70s. Didnt bend it..but
it sure turned int into a reamer when it unwound the flutes

:-)

The one shown above got a reverse twist between the bend and the
shank. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.
A couple years back, Junior raided his FiL's stock of dull, broken and
mutilated drill bits and brought them to me to play with on my DD750.
Among them I found what I think started out as a carbide tipped
masonry drill which had lost it's carbide and been sharpened and used
to attempt perforating steel.. After I cut off the mutilated section I
rough ground it and finished it on the DD, then I drilled a hole
through it and wired on a printed tag: "Drill Shaped Object, use only
to make holes in room temperature BUTTER"
When Fil spotted that in his supply of sharp bits, he totally lost it.
The "Drill Shaped Object" occupies a place of honour over his bench!
---

Gerry :-)}
London,Canada