Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.
I machine 1/16" aluminum all the time with just edge support, but
maybe your pieces are bigger than mine. I have various bits of
sacrificial scrap that I can lay under the edges, then use various
clamps to hold the edges down onto the strips of stuff used
for the edge support.

I made a 13 x 25" piece os 3/8" aluminum with a 1 x 1" grid of
10-32 holes tapped in it, and 4 big countersunk holes for bolts to clamp it
to the machine table.

Wood gets chopped up into dust that clogs up my coolant system, so
I don't use that as a sacrificial support.

Jon

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

As does Jon, I machine thin sheets frequently.

I have prepared a (somewhat) sacrificial baseplate from a faced-off slab
of aluminum. Through that, I drilled quite a number of holes (more on
that later).

I use a very aggressive commercial double-stick tape to secure the
plates. They - and the baseplate - must be immaculately clean before the
tape is applied. I lay it on close together, but with no overlaps or
bubbles, then press down the plate onto the tape. I then weigh it down
with a lot of weight (maybe 200lb per sq. ft.) overnight to secure it,
and ensure any trapped air has been pressed out.

Except when using an oil-emulsion coolant, I've not had anything peel
loose, not even when cutting profiles that leave a slug. It is essential
to make the last cut through a slug very thin, so as not to apply much
lifting force to the waste material.

After machining, I spray an oily solvent (PBlaster) into all those holes
(told you I'd mention them) to help loosen up the adhesive. After
soaking for a while, gentle prying will slowly release the sheet.

It's a chore, but for stuff with slugs left over, it works neat. For
"ordinary" work on thin sheets, I just use clamps and plan my work in
stages so I can move the clamps around as necessary between machining
operations.

One can also CAD the work to leave "holding tabs" around slugs, and
remove them with secondary finishing work.


LLoyd

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:09:01 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

For thin stuff I make a sandwich, sacrificial above and below.

Karl

"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

As does Jon, I machine thin sheets frequently.

I have prepared a (somewhat) sacrificial baseplate from a faced-off slab
of aluminum. Through that, I drilled quite a number of holes (more on
that later).

I use a very aggressive commercial double-stick tape to secure the
plates. They - and the baseplate - must be immaculately clean before the
tape is applied. I lay it on close together, but with no overlaps or
bubbles, then press down the plate onto the tape. I then weigh it down
with a lot of weight (maybe 200lb per sq. ft.) overnight to secure it,
and ensure any trapped air has been pressed out.

Except when using an oil-emulsion coolant, I've not had anything peel
loose, not even when cutting profiles that leave a slug. It is essential
to make the last cut through a slug very thin, so as not to apply much
lifting force to the waste material.

After machining, I spray an oily solvent (PBlaster) into all those holes
(told you I'd mention them) to help loosen up the adhesive. After
soaking for a while, gentle prying will slowly release the sheet.

It's a chore, but for stuff with slugs left over, it works neat. For
"ordinary" work on thin sheets, I just use clamps and plan my work in
stages so I can move the clamps around as necessary between machining
operations.

One can also CAD the work to leave "holding tabs" around slugs, and
remove them with secondary finishing work.


LLoyd


I have not had to deal with this myself, but I was wondering, could you use
a steel baseplate and put a few strong magnets on top? Of course you would
have to program the tool path to avoid the magnets.

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message
...
Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.


I guess it depends on the type of cuts and how often you have to do it. I
always thought a pair of edge clamps that put a sheet under tension would be
good if you are just milling holes in it, but if you have stuff that cuts
through the edge it would distort. I usually epoxy aluminum to a milled
flat piece of MDF myself. Usually its one piece, and I have to do all kinds
of weird things to it. Sometimes the epoxy will break loose if you get the
work piece to warm or put to much stress on it.

Once upon a time, I used some "medium density sawdust wood", ie mdf,
in the construction of a vacuum chamber. Air went through the meduim density
stuff too quickly to even build a vacuum.
The mdf might serve the dual purpose of porous/throw-away support with
a vacuum box underneath. Secure the aluminum to the mdf with tape and
seal the remainder of the mdf with tape too.
If you give it a try, post the results.

Hul

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

"anorton" fired this volley in
m:

I have not had to deal with this myself, but I was wondering, could
you use a steel baseplate and put a few strong magnets on top? Of
course you would have to program the tool path to avoid the magnets.

You'd still need some sort of scheme to prevent the work from sliding
side-to-side under cutting thrust. Magnet-to-magnet will resist sliding
due to the coupling of lines of force, but the only thing keeping a sheet
of magnetic material from sliding on a magnet is the friction due to the
attractive force.

If the magnets were strong enough... eh... yes. But then removing the
material would be pretty hard, too.

Lloyd

fired this volley in :

Once upon a time, I used some "medium density sawdust wood", ie
mdf,
in the construction of a vacuum chamber. Air went through the meduim
density stuff too quickly to even build a vacuum.
The mdf might serve the dual purpose of porous/throw-away support
with
a vacuum box underneath. Secure the aluminum to the mdf with tape and
seal the remainder of the mdf with tape too.
If you give it a try, post the results.


FWIW, even high-density fiberboard can be used as a vacuum base. I work
periodically with a guy who owns a ShopSabre CNC router. His "waste
sheet" is HDF with the sealed surfaces milled away (which is necessary to
"true" the sheet to the bed, anyway).

Of course, for a 4x8 sheet, he has a 20HP 3-phase "vacuum cleaner" doing
the suction! (regenerative impeller-style vacuum pump)G


Lloyd

"Spehro Pefhany" wrote in message ...
Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.


Generally I leave excess all around the periphery and screw it to the table, also adding screws at any holes or cut-outs....

Then I machine the entire part staying appx 020 above the fixture, following up with a second pass at about .005 above....essentially, this leaves me with a strip of aluminum foil attached around the edges etc which peels away from the finished part with minimal effort.

I'd consider 3M No. 77 spray glue and a fiber board underneath.

After cutting, solvent or heat will release the glue.

Something like PCB making in a lab for one of a kind prototypes.

Martin

On 4/24/2012 3:09 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:07:45 -0500, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:
Spehro Pefhany wrote: ...
What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.? Up
to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.
....
I have prepared a (somewhat) sacrificial baseplate from a faced-off slab
of aluminum. Through that, I drilled quite a number of holes (more on
that later).

I use a very aggressive commercial double-stick tape to secure the
plates. They - and the baseplate - must be immaculately clean before
the tape is applied. I lay it on close together, but with no overlaps
or bubbles, then press down the plate onto the tape. I then weigh it
down with a lot of weight (maybe 200lb per sq. ft.) overnight to secure
it, and ensure any trapped air has been pressed out.
....
After machining, I spray an oily solvent (PBlaster) into all those holes
(told you I'd mention them) to help loosen up the adhesive. After
soaking for a while, gentle prying will slowly release the sheet.

Have you tried heat for removing the tape? I've frequently used
a heat gun for removing tape, and sometimes then a solvent to
remove sticky patches left behind. For the large-area baseplate
you mentioned, an oven might work better than a heat gun. The main
advantages of heat vs. PBlaster would be faster turnaround and
less need for "gentle" when separating the sheet and baseplate.

--
jiw

James Waldby fired this volley in news:jn9f6h$l1b$1
@dont-email.me:

Have you tried heat for removing the tape?

I've never tried with this particular tape, but I will! G

Thanks,
Lloyd

"Karl Townsend" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:09:01 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

For thin stuff I make a sandwich, sacrificial above and below.

Agreed.

Except the sandwich plates won't really be sacrificial, as much as
comprising a *fixture*, as the sandwich plates will simply have the part
geometry milled right into it.

I would also have the material oversized, for screw holes coincident with
the sandwich screws, but if the plates are rigid enough with enough
friction, you might not need these.
Also, the bottom plate could be milled out slightly, to "capture" the thin
sheets, avoiding extra peripheral material, etc.

PMT's technique is good, but requires a fair tolerance in Z. The sandwich
strategy is more forgiving.
--
EA



Karl

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:09:01 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
wrote:

Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

Greetings Spehro,
I have used double sided tape for the kind of work you describe but
it's a pain to remove even when it comes off easily. For doing several
of the same parts I like to machine channels into an aluminum plate in
a grid with a channel around the periphery of the grid that holds a
seal. The seal can be O-ring material. But there is also available
round cord for seals that is made from closed cell foam and has a
smooth outside surface. I don't remember where I got it now but I
could find out. It is what I use now for vacuum chucks. Anyway, when I
machine the channels I place them so that all the cuts on the part
won't be where the channels are so that the vacuum won't be lost. I
also use locating pins on two sides of the part and MITEE BITE clamps
to to push the part into the pins so that the part is secured against
side to side motion. Sometimes I also use cutters with lefthand flutes
to provide downward pressure if there is not enough surface area for
the vacuum to hold well enough. When I do that I machine the plate
deep enough for the chips from the lefthand fluted cutter to have
someplace to go.
Eric

On 2012-04-24, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

One approach is a double-sided tape to hold it down.

Or hot shellac allowed to cool to hold it, and heated back up to
remove it after machining.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

Yes -- bolt it down to a tooling plate and replace it every time
the pattern changes -- or just start out with it quite thick and mill it
flat before each new pattern.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

Vacuum hold-downs can be good if the ratio of remaining metal to
hole area is good, and the overall area is large relative to cutter
load. The more holes you cut, or the larger the holes, the weaker the
vacuum hold-down gets. But you can do it with a shop vac (and hearing
protection) and a box with a maze of paths milled in it to route air to
all the holes for the hold-down. You will need more material
surrounding a smaller workpiece to keep from losing the vacuum.

Good Luck,
DoN.


--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Tue, 24 Apr 2012 16:07:45 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

Hi, all:-

What's a good way to hold down material such as thin aluminum panels
(eg. 1/16" or 1/8") while through-CNC milling cutouts, holes etc.?
Up to maybe 8" x 19" but probably more like 4 x 6" typically.

Presumably some kind of sacrificial material underneath.

I see one company has a material that is porous and allows a vacuum
table, not sure if that's worth it.

As does Jon, I machine thin sheets frequently.

I have prepared a (somewhat) sacrificial baseplate from a faced-off slab
of aluminum. Through that, I drilled quite a number of holes (more on
that later).

I use a very aggressive commercial double-stick tape to secure the
plates. They - and the baseplate - must be immaculately clean before the
tape is applied. I lay it on close together, but with no overlaps or
bubbles, then press down the plate onto the tape. I then weigh it down
with a lot of weight (maybe 200lb per sq. ft.) overnight to secure it,
and ensure any trapped air has been pressed out.

Except when using an oil-emulsion coolant, I've not had anything peel
loose, not even when cutting profiles that leave a slug. It is essential
to make the last cut through a slug very thin, so as not to apply much
lifting force to the waste material.

After machining, I spray an oily solvent (PBlaster) into all those holes
(told you I'd mention them) to help loosen up the adhesive. After
soaking for a while, gentle prying will slowly release the sheet.

It's a chore, but for stuff with slugs left over, it works neat. For
"ordinary" work on thin sheets, I just use clamps and plan my work in
stages so I can move the clamps around as necessary between machining
operations.

One can also CAD the work to leave "holding tabs" around slugs, and
remove them with secondary finishing work.


LLoyd


Lloyd: Can you share with us what tape you are using?? Thanks!!
rgentry at oz dot net

On Thu, 26 Apr 2012 11:43:03 -0500, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

Bob Gentry fired this volley in
:

Lloyd: Can you share with us what tape you are using?? Thanks!!
rgentry at oz dot net

yep... made in Canada.

Tape-Rite Co., Inc. 1-800-882-7348

It's a flame retardant high-performance carpet tape,
part # 108FR DC Carpet Tape, Black. (the FR stands for flame-retardant)

It comes on 25yd rolls, and surplus, it cost me $7.00 per roll.

Sticks like IRON.

LLoyd


Thank You
rgentry at oz dot net