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Metalworking (rec.crafts.metalworking) Discuss various aspects of working with metal, such as machining, welding, metal joining, screwing, casting, hardening/tempering, blacksmithing/forging, spinning and hammer work, sheet metal work. |
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#1
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REALLY Heavy metal work
Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had
nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml |
#2
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote:
Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul |
#3
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:37:59 -0800, Paul Drahn
wrote: On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. The US made a few gun-trigger bombs, and the Brits made a few, and then we both scrapped them. They're dangerous as hell: anything that will set off the explosive charge, like lightening or a big spark, can, theoretically, make them go "boom." Gun triggers won't work with plutonium because the bomb will self-destruct before the chain reaction is more than a fizzle. BTW. it takes a much larger uranium pit than a plutonium pit to make a bomb. -- Ed Huntress |
#4
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:53:17 -0500, Ed Huntress
wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:37:59 -0800, Paul Drahn wrote: On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man That should be "Little Boy," the Hiroshima bomb. We had never tested a gun-tirgger bomb before we dropped Little Boy. -- Ed Huntress could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. The US made a few gun-trigger bombs, and the Brits made a few, and then we both scrapped them. They're dangerous as hell: anything that will set off the explosive charge, like lightening or a big spark, can, theoretically, make them go "boom." Gun triggers won't work with plutonium because the bomb will self-destruct before the chain reaction is more than a fizzle. BTW. it takes a much larger uranium pit than a plutonium pit to make a bomb. |
#5
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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REALLY Heavy metal work
Richard wrote:
Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. Its so big because it is hollow. The chemical implosion crushes it and mixes it with the neutron trigger in the center, starting the chain reaction. Modern devices have a solid 239 Pu sphere in the center that is compressed to about 2 X normal density to create the critical mass. The reaction is started by a pulse linac shooting protons at a target timed just right so the neutrons get there at the instant of maximum compression. The Swan device uses only two exploding wire triggers and 2 explosive lenses of varying propagation rate that form a spherical explosion front. They have a "driver" and a tamper to enhance the compression and delay the flying apart of the compressed pit. Some of these Swan devices are only a little bigger than that "pit" in your picture! Jon |
#6
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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REALLY Heavy metal work
"Richard" wrote in message ... Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Neat shots. I keep saying I am going to go to the Atomic Energy Museum in Las Vegas, it's near one of my homes. I saw several of the above ground tests as a kid in the 50s. Steve |
#7
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REALLY Heavy metal work
That's the first good news I've heard in a long time.
I hope Iran does not develop or purchase a nuke. Too many targets they would love to destroy. Israel, USA, etc. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Paul Drahn" wrote in message ... The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul |
#8
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 06:10:02 -0800, "Steve B"
wrote: BIG SNIP Neat shots. I keep saying I am going to go to the Atomic Energy Museum in Las Vegas, it's near one of my homes. I saw several of the above ground tests as a kid in the 50s. Steve Hey Steve, Well worth the visit. Figure on about 2 hours to see most of it. The method of taking pix they took during testing is explained, and very interesting stuff about the "inventor" of the method. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. |
#9
Posted to rec.crafts.metalworking
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:53:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:37:59 -0800, Paul Drahn wrote: On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. The US made a few gun-trigger bombs, and the Brits made a few, and then we both scrapped them. They're dangerous as hell: anything that will set off the explosive charge, like lightening or a big spark, can, theoretically, make them go "boom." Gun triggers won't work with plutonium because the bomb will self-destruct before the chain reaction is more than a fizzle. BTW. it takes a much larger uranium pit than a plutonium pit to make a bomb. Somewhere on the web -- I think I found it on Wikipedia -- there's a discussion about early thoughts on gun-trigger plutonium bombs, along with a picture of some ten prototypes that were scrapped. They were very long and very skinny, to try to get the velocity up enough to avoid the effect that you mention. Apparently they originally thought that a gun-triggered Pu bomb would work, and it was one of the big names (Oppenheimer or Feynmann) in physics that re-did the calculations and figured out that it was a no-go. -- My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#10
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:25:24 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:53:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:37:59 -0800, Paul Drahn wrote: On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. The US made a few gun-trigger bombs, and the Brits made a few, and then we both scrapped them. They're dangerous as hell: anything that will set off the explosive charge, like lightening or a big spark, can, theoretically, make them go "boom." Gun triggers won't work with plutonium because the bomb will self-destruct before the chain reaction is more than a fizzle. BTW. it takes a much larger uranium pit than a plutonium pit to make a bomb. Somewhere on the web -- I think I found it on Wikipedia -- there's a discussion about early thoughts on gun-trigger plutonium bombs, along with a picture of some ten prototypes that were scrapped. They were very long and very skinny, to try to get the velocity up enough to avoid the effect that you mention. Yeah, in theory you can make a gun trigger for plutonium. I've seen values of barrel length ranging from a few hundred meters to a kilometer. In fact, when N. Korea exploded its first bomb in a tunnel, I wondered (and still do) if that's what they tried. Apparently they originally thought that a gun-triggered Pu bomb would work, and it was one of the big names (Oppenheimer or Feynmann) in physics that re-did the calculations and figured out that it was a no-go. Right. They pursued both trigger mechanisms until they realized that gun triggers weren't going to be practical with plutonium. In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. And it disturbs me a bit that reporters often rely on stories about the extreme difficulty of building a working spherical-implosion trigger, not noticing whether it's plutonium or uranium that's being used for the pit. I find it scary that Iran went for uranium. -- Ed Huntress |
#11
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:34:07 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:25:24 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:53:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:37:59 -0800, Paul Drahn wrote: On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. The US made a few gun-trigger bombs, and the Brits made a few, and then we both scrapped them. They're dangerous as hell: anything that will set off the explosive charge, like lightening or a big spark, can, theoretically, make them go "boom." Gun triggers won't work with plutonium because the bomb will self-destruct before the chain reaction is more than a fizzle. BTW. it takes a much larger uranium pit than a plutonium pit to make a bomb. Somewhere on the web -- I think I found it on Wikipedia -- there's a discussion about early thoughts on gun-trigger plutonium bombs, along with a picture of some ten prototypes that were scrapped. They were very long and very skinny, to try to get the velocity up enough to avoid the effect that you mention. Yeah, in theory you can make a gun trigger for plutonium. I've seen values of barrel length ranging from a few hundred meters to a kilometer. In fact, when N. Korea exploded its first bomb in a tunnel, I wondered (and still do) if that's what they tried. Apparently they originally thought that a gun-triggered Pu bomb would work, and it was one of the big names (Oppenheimer or Feynmann) in physics that re-did the calculations and figured out that it was a no-go. Right. They pursued both trigger mechanisms until they realized that gun triggers weren't going to be practical with plutonium. In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. And it disturbs me a bit that reporters often rely on stories about the extreme difficulty of building a working spherical-implosion trigger, not noticing whether it's plutonium or uranium that's being used for the pit. I find it scary that Iran went for uranium. Well, I think the major difference between the nuclear programs of N. Korea and Iran is than Iran wants to blow up Jews, but N. Korea just wants to extort foreign aid from the West and convince their home-boys that the leadership has really big balls. So for N. Korea Pu is the best, because they can scare the hell out of the dimwits with money, but the real experts won't be rattled. Whereas for Iran U-235 is the best, because they may actually be able to vaporize parts of Tel Aviv. -- My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software http://www.wescottdesign.com |
#12
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:19:08 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:34:07 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:25:24 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:53:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:37:59 -0800, Paul Drahn wrote: On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. The US made a few gun-trigger bombs, and the Brits made a few, and then we both scrapped them. They're dangerous as hell: anything that will set off the explosive charge, like lightening or a big spark, can, theoretically, make them go "boom." Gun triggers won't work with plutonium because the bomb will self-destruct before the chain reaction is more than a fizzle. BTW. it takes a much larger uranium pit than a plutonium pit to make a bomb. Somewhere on the web -- I think I found it on Wikipedia -- there's a discussion about early thoughts on gun-trigger plutonium bombs, along with a picture of some ten prototypes that were scrapped. They were very long and very skinny, to try to get the velocity up enough to avoid the effect that you mention. Yeah, in theory you can make a gun trigger for plutonium. I've seen values of barrel length ranging from a few hundred meters to a kilometer. In fact, when N. Korea exploded its first bomb in a tunnel, I wondered (and still do) if that's what they tried. Apparently they originally thought that a gun-triggered Pu bomb would work, and it was one of the big names (Oppenheimer or Feynmann) in physics that re-did the calculations and figured out that it was a no-go. Right. They pursued both trigger mechanisms until they realized that gun triggers weren't going to be practical with plutonium. In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. And it disturbs me a bit that reporters often rely on stories about the extreme difficulty of building a working spherical-implosion trigger, not noticing whether it's plutonium or uranium that's being used for the pit. I find it scary that Iran went for uranium. Well, I think the major difference between the nuclear programs of N. Korea and Iran is than Iran wants to blow up Jews, but N. Korea just wants to extort foreign aid from the West and convince their home-boys that the leadership has really big balls. So for N. Korea Pu is the best, because they can scare the hell out of the dimwits with money, but the real experts won't be rattled. Whereas for Iran U-235 is the best, because they may actually be able to vaporize parts of Tel Aviv. That's an interesting take. I'd like to hear it put that way from an analyst on a TV show sometime. It would liven things up. g -- Ed Huntress |
#13
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On 2/24/2012 6:08, Richard wrote:
Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. A nice technical document: http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfa...1.html#Nfaq4.1 |
#14
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On 2/24/2012 1:19 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
.... So for N. Korea Pu is the best, because they can scare the hell out of the dimwits with money, but the real experts won't be rattled. Whereas for Iran U-235 is the best, because they may actually be able to vaporize parts of Tel Aviv. Been my feeling as well...N Korea also knows when push comes to shove China won't let them dirty their backyard. OTOH, there's nobody in the MidEast other than Israel to take oversee that area. -- |
#15
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REALLY Heavy metal work
Ed Huntress wrote:
Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. Anybody that has more than a gram of 239 Pu ALREADY has enriched uranium. You need "weapons grade" enrichment, meaning about 90% 235U) to build a breeder reactor to make 239 Pu. It has to be a fast neutron reactor to transmute the 238 U at the edge of the core to 239 Pu, and that requires a high proportion of 235 U for the chain reaction to continue. (I'm not a reactor physicist, but that's my understanding.) So, if they have kilograms of 239 Pu, they MUST have tons of pretty pure 235 U. Jon |
#16
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On 2/24/2012 6:04 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote: Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. Anybody that has more than a gram of 239 Pu ALREADY has enriched uranium. You need "weapons grade" enrichment, meaning about 90% 235U) to build a breeder reactor to make 239 Pu. It has to be a fast neutron reactor to transmute the 238 U at the edge of the core to 239 Pu, and that requires a high proportion of 235 U for the chain reaction to continue. (I'm not a reactor physicist, but that's my understanding.) So, if they have kilograms of 239 Pu, they MUST have tons of pretty pure 235 U. Jon I wonder where they got the 235U? |
#17
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On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 18:11:39 -0600, Richard wrote:
On 2/24/2012 6:04 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. Anybody that has more than a gram of 239 Pu ALREADY has enriched uranium. You need "weapons grade" enrichment, meaning about 90% 235U) to build a breeder reactor to make 239 Pu. It has to be a fast neutron reactor to transmute the 238 U at the edge of the core to 239 Pu, and that requires a high proportion of 235 U for the chain reaction to continue. (I'm not a reactor physicist, but that's my understanding.) So, if they have kilograms of 239 Pu, they MUST have tons of pretty pure 235 U. Jon I wonder where they got the 235U? Any peaceable nuclear reactor needs U-235 to fire the reaction -- it's just that the common type (non-breeder) doesn't need much. I'm not so sure about the absolutely needing a breeder reactor -- AFAIK, you get Pu from ordinary reactors, just in small quantities. In fact, (again, AFAIK), part of the reprocessing of nuclear fuel is getting the Pu out. -- My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook. My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook. Why am I not happy that they have found common ground? Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software http://www.wescottdesign.com |
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On 2/24/2012 6:25 PM, Tim Wescott wrote:
On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 18:11:39 -0600, Richard wrote: On 2/24/2012 6:04 PM, Jon Elson wrote: Ed Huntress wrote: Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. Anybody that has more than a gram of 239 Pu ALREADY has enriched uranium. You need "weapons grade" enrichment, meaning about 90% 235U) to build a breeder reactor to make 239 Pu. It has to be a fast neutron reactor to transmute the 238 U at the edge of the core to 239 Pu, and that requires a high proportion of 235 U for the chain reaction to continue. (I'm not a reactor physicist, but that's my understanding.) So, if they have kilograms of 239 Pu, they MUST have tons of pretty pure 235 U. Jon I wonder where they got the 235U? Any peaceable nuclear reactor needs U-235 to fire the reaction -- it's just that the common type (non-breeder) doesn't need much. I'm not so sure about the absolutely needing a breeder reactor -- AFAIK, you get Pu from ordinary reactors, just in small quantities. In fact, (again, AFAIK), part of the reprocessing of nuclear fuel is getting the Pu out. Yeah, that jives with what I think I remember. But it takes a certain quantity of 235 to get rolling. I seem to remember that it takes more material to build a reactor than a bomb... |
#20
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"Brian Lawson" wrote in message ... On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 06:10:02 -0800, "Steve B" wrote: BIG SNIP Neat shots. I keep saying I am going to go to the Atomic Energy Museum in Las Vegas, it's near one of my homes. I saw several of the above ground tests as a kid in the 50s. Steve Hey Steve, Well worth the visit. Figure on about 2 hours to see most of it. The method of taking pix they took during testing is explained, and very interesting stuff about the "inventor" of the method. Brian Lawson, Bothwell, Ontario. Would that be Edgerton? Wasn't he the inventor of some huge strobe used on USAC bombers during WWII? Steve |
#21
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REALLY Heavy metal work
On 2012-02-24, Kristian Ukkonen wrote:
On 2/24/2012 6:08, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. A nice technical document: http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfa...1.html#Nfaq4.1 great article, I love it! i |
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On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:34:07 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:
In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. Uranium gun was believed to be so reliable that they felt they didn't need to test it. I find it scary that Iran went for uranium. Well, there's no other way though: the only way to get plutonium is to refine it from spent fuel created in a conventional U235 reactor. In short, neutrons from U235 fission hit the normally inert U238 and convert it to Pu239 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium |
#23
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 05:28:35 +0000 (UTC), Przemek Klosowski
wrote: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:34:07 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. Uranium gun was believed to be so reliable that they felt they didn't need to test it. Yeah, but it still seems to be an amazing leap of faith. They hadn't tested uranium in a bomb, and they hadn't actually used the gun trigger in a bomb test. That's some confidence in the science, all of which was still pretty uncertain. I find it scary that Iran went for uranium. Well, there's no other way though: the only way to get plutonium is to refine it from spent fuel created in a conventional U235 reactor. In short, neutrons from U235 fission hit the normally inert U238 and convert it to Pu239 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium Right. But producing weapons-grade uranium is a vastly bigger project, in comparison with using a reactor to produce plutonium. Again, what seems to be missing in the press accounts is these points: 1) If you have 90%+ enriched uranium, you can make a bomb with a simple gun trigger that requires none of the sophisticated engineering of an implosion trigger. After Hiroshima, the whole world knows that it works. 2) You have to be a little crazy to use a gun trigger unless you have complete control of everything: a delivery system that allows you to arm it at the last minute, far from the launch site, etc. 3) The Iranians appear to be a little crazy. -- Ed Huntress |
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On 2/26/2012 9:30 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
Again, what seems to be missing in the press accounts is these points: 1) If you have 90%+ enriched uranium, you can make a bomb with a simple gun trigger that requires none of the sophisticated engineering of an implosion trigger. After Hiroshima, the whole world knows that it works. 2) You have to be a little crazy to use a gun trigger unless you have complete control of everything: a delivery system that allows you to arm it at the last minute, far from the launch site, etc. 3) The Iranians appear to be a little crazy. And the delivery system can be a shipping container with the bomb in place long before the intended use. David |
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 10:30:27 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 05:28:35 +0000 (UTC), Przemek Klosowski wrote: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:34:07 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. Uranium gun was believed to be so reliable that they felt they didn't need to test it. Yeah, but it still seems to be an amazing leap of faith. They hadn't tested uranium in a bomb, and they hadn't actually used the gun trigger in a bomb test. That's some confidence in the science, all of which was still pretty uncertain. In Feynman's memoirs ("Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman"), he talks about the testing that they did to calibrate their math: they had a sub- critical ring of fissionable material, and another sub-critical sphere. They'd drop the one through the other, and observe the neutron flux. So they may not have actually done a gun-type explosion, but it sounds like there was a whole lot of due-diligence paid to the whole thing. -- Tim Wescott Control system and signal processing consulting www.wescottdesign.com |
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 10:30:27 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote:
On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 05:28:35 +0000 (UTC), Przemek Klosowski wrote: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:34:07 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. Uranium gun was believed to be so reliable that they felt they didn't need to test it. Yeah, but it still seems to be an amazing leap of faith. They hadn't tested uranium in a bomb, and they hadn't actually used the gun trigger in a bomb test. That's some confidence in the science, all of which was still pretty uncertain. I find it scary that Iran went for uranium. Well, there's no other way though: the only way to get plutonium is to refine it from spent fuel created in a conventional U235 reactor. In short, neutrons from U235 fission hit the normally inert U238 and convert it to Pu239 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutonium Right. But producing weapons-grade uranium is a vastly bigger project, in comparison with using a reactor to produce plutonium. Again, what seems to be missing in the press accounts is these points: 1) If you have 90%+ enriched uranium, you can make a bomb with a simple gun trigger that requires none of the sophisticated engineering of an implosion trigger. After Hiroshima, the whole world knows that it works. 2) You have to be a little crazy to use a gun trigger unless you have complete control of everything: a delivery system that allows you to arm it at the last minute, far from the launch site, etc. 3) The Iranians appear to be a little crazy. I'm sure that there are purely mechanical ways of building your gun mechanism that would put some redundancy in. The one that comes to mind first would be load a honkin' big round -- cartridge, primer, powder, and U-235 "bullet" -- that gets automatically loaded into the gun (with interlocks) and won't do s**t outside of it. Perhaps better, have the U-235 in the tube, but keep the explosive physically separate until the minute that it is needed. But -- the Iranians do appear crazy. Or at least fanatical, which looks like insanity to anyone who doesn't share their particular brand of fanaticism. -- Tim Wescott Control system and signal processing consulting www.wescottdesign.com |
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On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 11:57:18 -0600, Tim Wescott
wrote: On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 10:30:27 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Sun, 26 Feb 2012 05:28:35 +0000 (UTC), Przemek Klosowski wrote: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:34:07 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: In talking with people about this over the years I find that few people know that the Hiroshima bomb was an untried gun-trigger device, but that the Nagasaki bomb was an implosion device based on the Gadget used in the Trinity test. Uranium gun was believed to be so reliable that they felt they didn't need to test it. Yeah, but it still seems to be an amazing leap of faith. They hadn't tested uranium in a bomb, and they hadn't actually used the gun trigger in a bomb test. That's some confidence in the science, all of which was still pretty uncertain. In Feynman's memoirs ("Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman"), he talks about the testing that they did to calibrate their math: they had a sub- critical ring of fissionable material, and another sub-critical sphere. They'd drop the one through the other, and observe the neutron flux. So they may not have actually done a gun-type explosion, but it sounds like there was a whole lot of due-diligence paid to the whole thing. Oh, I don't doubt that. I'm not suggesting they just said, "Hey, let's try this by dropping one on Hiroshima!" g I still find it remarkable that they relied on those calculations, when some scientists were still worried that the Earth's entire atmosphere might go up in a conflagration. It was a lot of predictive science packed into a short time under enormous pressure. -- Ed Huntress |
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Tim Wescott wrote:
Any peaceable nuclear reactor needs U-235 to fire the reaction -- it's just that the common type (non-breeder) doesn't need much. I'm not so sure about the absolutely needing a breeder reactor -- AFAIK, you get Pu from ordinary reactors, just in small quantities. In fact, (again, AFAIK), part of the reprocessing of nuclear fuel is getting the Pu out. Yes, that's the deal, typical power and research reactors produce 239 Pu SLOWLY, and if you leave the fuel in too long, you get too much 240 Pu, which is undesirable. Of course, if you have decades of reactor operation to harvest, instead of the Manhattan project kind of insane timeline, then it is less of a problem. The Manhattan project was truly amazing, they built something that was only a theoretical possibility in just a couple years, in the MIDDLE of a huge war! Jon |
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Richard wrote:
I seem to remember that it takes more material to build a reactor than a bomb... Yes, typically TONS of low-enriched Uranium for a light water moderated reactor. There are some gadgets called water boilers that used really small amounts of dissolved uranium and would go critical on a few kg of it. They made wide pans to store it, and sucked it up into a spherical chamber to make it go critical. If it ever overheated, it would boil off some of the water and drive the fluid back into the wide pan. Well, I'm pretty sure nobody could get one of these licensed to operate today! Jon |
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On Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:03:22 -0600, Jon Elson
wrote: Tim Wescott wrote: Any peaceable nuclear reactor needs U-235 to fire the reaction -- it's just that the common type (non-breeder) doesn't need much. I'm not so sure about the absolutely needing a breeder reactor -- AFAIK, you get Pu from ordinary reactors, just in small quantities. In fact, (again, AFAIK), part of the reprocessing of nuclear fuel is getting the Pu out. Yes, that's the deal, typical power and research reactors produce 239 Pu SLOWLY, and if you leave the fuel in too long, you get too much 240 Pu, which is undesirable. Of course, if you have decades of reactor operation to harvest, instead of the Manhattan project kind of insane timeline, then it is less of a problem. The Manhattan project was truly amazing, they built something that was only a theoretical possibility in just a couple years, in the MIDDLE of a huge war! Jon After reading Feynman, Oppenheimer, and others, I find it even more amazing that they built the bomb. So many times they came so close to disaster. And all the number crunching that was done by hand and by primitive calculators. Eric |
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wrote in message ... ... After reading Feynman, Oppenheimer, and others, I find it even more amazing that they built the bomb. So many times they came so close to disaster. And all the number crunching that was done by hand and by primitive calculators. Eric I've read that they even measured the results of a "Buffon's Needle" trial: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Carlo_method jsw |
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#33
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In article ,
says... On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:53:17 -0500, Ed Huntress wrote: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:37:59 -0800, Paul Drahn wrote: On 2/23/2012 8:08 PM, Richard wrote: Like most of us (baby boomers) I grew up in a world that already had nuclear weapons. We did "Duck and Cover" drills in school, and I thought I had a fair notion about how these things worked. But this photo (second one on this page) of the PU core of the "Fat Man" implosion device - it's so small...fit's in your hand. http://simplethinking.com/home/nuclear_weapons.htm The majority of the energy release is nearly instantaneous, the mean time from neutron release to fission can be of the order of 10 nanoseconds, and the chain reaction builds exponentially. The result is that greater than 99% of the very considerable energy released in an atomic explosion is generated in the last few (typically 4-5) generations of fission -- less than a tenth of a microsecond.* This tremendous energy release in a small space over fantastically short periods of time creates some unusual phenomena -- physical conditions that have no equal on earth, no matter how much TNT is stacked up. A fascinating collection of high speed photos... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapat...hotographs.htm http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_2.shtml and the "rope tricks"... http://simplethinking.com/home/rapatronic_3.shtml Very impressive photos. I don't recall seeing them before. Still the critical component is not described. It is the mechanism to trigger the conventional explosive segments all at the identical time. The key word being - identical. The failure of these devices in the last North Korea test probably caused the dud. Until Iran is able manufacture the devices and get them to work properly, all the uranium in the world will not get them the bomb. Paul Well, that *is* really a problem. All of the plutonium in the world won't get them a bomb, but the gun trigger for Little Man could probably have been made in a good basement shop. That's why it's a lot scarier for them to have enriched uranium than plutonium. Any goof can make a gun-trigger uranium bomb, if they have a plan that gives them useable dimensions. The US made a few gun-trigger bombs, and the Brits made a few, and then we both scrapped them. They're dangerous as hell: anything that will set off the explosive charge, like lightening or a big spark, can, theoretically, make them go "boom." Gun triggers won't work with plutonium because the bomb will self-destruct before the chain reaction is more than a fizzle. BTW. it takes a much larger uranium pit than a plutonium pit to make a bomb. Somewhere on the web -- I think I found it on Wikipedia -- there's a discussion about early thoughts on gun-trigger plutonium bombs, along with a picture of some ten prototypes that were scrapped. They were very long and very skinny, to try to get the velocity up enough to avoid the effect that you mention. Apparently they originally thought that a gun-triggered Pu bomb would work, and it was one of the big names (Oppenheimer or Feynmann) in physics that re-did the calculations and figured out that it was a no-go. The problem was that the plutonium coming out of the breeders was of a different isotopic mix than the sample on which they based the calculations. |
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"J. Clarke" wrote: By the way, this timing "magic" was achieved with 1940s electronics. Shouldn't be any problem today. It was done with a high speed switching component that is still restricted. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
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"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message m... "J. Clarke" wrote: By the way, this timing "magic" was achieved with 1940s electronics. Shouldn't be any problem today. It was done with a high speed switching component that is still restricted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krytron /djgo7 |
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Jim Wilkins wrote: "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message m... "J. Clarke" wrote: By the way, this timing "magic" was achieved with 1940s electronics. Shouldn't be any problem today. It was done with a high speed switching component that is still restricted. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krytron That's it. i figured that you and maybe Don Nichols would know, but I was waiting to see if anyone else knew. An EE on another group managed to pick up one surplus. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
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In article ,
"Michael A. Terrell" wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: By the way, this timing "magic" was achieved with 1940s electronics. Shouldn't be any problem today. It was done with a high speed switching component that is still restricted. Yes, but krytrons are also a 1940s technology, and far easier to duplicate than say an ultracentrifuge. And I bet one can buy them from non-US sources. Joe Gwinn |
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On 3/3/2012 11:37 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote:
In articlesoednaiXKq79VNDSnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@earthlink .com, "Michael A. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: By the way, this timing "magic" was achieved with 1940s electronics. Shouldn't be any problem today. It was done with a high speed switching component that is still restricted. Yes, but krytrons are also a 1940s technology, and far easier to duplicate than say an ultracentrifuge. And I bet one can buy them from non-US sources. Joe Gwinn With high speed solid state electronics commonly available who needs ancient tube technology? |
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Richard wrote: On 3/3/2012 11:37 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In articlesoednaiXKq79VNDSnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@earthlink .com, "Michael A. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: By the way, this timing "magic" was achieved with 1940s electronics. Shouldn't be any problem today. It was done with a high speed switching component that is still restricted. Yes, but krytrons are also a 1940s technology, and far easier to duplicate than say an ultracentrifuge. And I bet one can buy them from non-US sources. Joe Gwinn With high speed solid state electronics commonly available who needs ancient tube technology? The switching time and power levels it can handle still make it a very useful part in trigger applications. -- You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense. |
#40
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Richard wrote:
On 3/3/2012 11:37 AM, Joseph Gwinn wrote: In articlesoednaiXKq79VNDSnZ2dnUVZ_vidnZ2d@earthlink .com, "Michael A. wrote: "J. Clarke" wrote: By the way, this timing "magic" was achieved with 1940s electronics. Shouldn't be any problem today. It was done with a high speed switching component that is still restricted. Yes, but krytrons are also a 1940s technology, and far easier to duplicate than say an ultracentrifuge. And I bet one can buy them from non-US sources. Joe Gwinn With high speed solid state electronics commonly available who needs ancient tube technology? Probably anyone who wants that device to work reliably in a high radiation environment. Ionizing radiation can do all sorts of nasty things to semiconductors. jk |
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