It seems that Freedom of the Press applies only to those who the Government
considers suitable to own and operate the press.

http://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-...014039441.html

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 08:49:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

It seems that Freedom of the Press applies only to those who the Government
considers suitable to own and operate the press.

http://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-...014039441.html



That's not the First Amendment, Jim. That's shield laws, which are of
questionable constitutionality to begin with. I say that as someone
who has made his living as a conventional journalist for roughly half
of my career.

I've never fully bought the reasoning that gives journalists such
extraordinary protection against claims of libel and defamation. If
you libel someone, it's libel, no matter who you are.

The laws are designed to protect the mechanism of journalism by which
we can publish rumor and unsubstantiated claims against public
figures, without having to give up our sources. You can find
individual cases to make either side of the issue. But, as the court
implied, at the very least it hinges on an assumption of professional
ethics on the part of most journalists. If every blogger is considered
a journalist, that thin veil of justification is ripped to shreds.

I'm with the court on this one. The plaintiff still has to prove
libel. The decision just keeps the blogger from hiding behind an
assumption of journalistic ethics -- an iffy assumption to begin with.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 08:49:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

It seems that Freedom of the Press applies only to those who the
Government
considers suitable to own and operate the press.

http://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-...014039441.html


That's not the First Amendment, Jim. That's shield laws, which are of
questionable constitutionality to begin with. I say that as someone
who has made his living as a conventional journalist for roughly half
of my career.

I've never fully bought the reasoning that gives journalists such
extraordinary protection against claims of libel and defamation. If
you libel someone, it's libel, no matter who you are....
Ed Huntress

What bothers me is the qualification standard mentioned, which practically
is a government-issued license to carry your opinion in public.
"Hernandez said Cox was not a journalist because she offered no professional
qualifications as a journalist or legitimate news outlet. She had no
journalism education, credentials or affiliation with a recognized news
outlet, proof of adhering to journalistic standards such as editing or
checking her facts, evidence she produced an independent product or evidence
she ever tried to get both sides of the story."

How many officially credentialed reporters and their editors would fail
those tests? Have you ever seen a reporter characterize protesters they
agree with as 'concerned citizens' while opponents were an 'angry mob'? I
had the chance to talk to the publisher of that paper when she was
hospitalized in the same room as my mother, and discovered she was further
to the left than Lenin.

Ironically those reporters found themselves arguing that they weren't
professionals when they wanted overtime pay.

http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=103

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 10:11:07 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 08:49:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

It seems that Freedom of the Press applies only to those who the
Government
considers suitable to own and operate the press.

http://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-...014039441.html


That's not the First Amendment, Jim. That's shield laws, which are of
questionable constitutionality to begin with. I say that as someone
who has made his living as a conventional journalist for roughly half
of my career.

I've never fully bought the reasoning that gives journalists such
extraordinary protection against claims of libel and defamation. If
you libel someone, it's libel, no matter who you are....
Ed Huntress

What bothers me is the qualification standard mentioned, which practically
is a government-issued license to carry your opinion in public.
"Hernandez said Cox was not a journalist because she offered no professional
qualifications as a journalist or legitimate news outlet. She had no
journalism education, credentials or affiliation with a recognized news
outlet, proof of adhering to journalistic standards such as editing or
checking her facts, evidence she produced an independent product or evidence
she ever tried to get both sides of the story."

Well, that's the problem with the shield laws to begin with, IMO.
There was a time when all of those qualifications meant a great deal.
But bloggers and online "news" organizations have debased the currency
beyond all recognition.

But even when it was all print, and when everything I wrote at
McGraw-Hill needed the approval of three editors, at least one of whom
fact-checked my stuff, and seriously or repeatedly violating ethics
was a short trip to a pink slip with little chance of getting another
job with a top-drawer publisher, there were plenty of questionable
organizations and journalists who didn't qualify for those standards
listed by the court.

It's always been a marginal call, IMO. Today, it's a joke.


How many officially credentialed reporters and their editors would fail
those tests?

See above.

Have you ever seen a reporter characterize protesters they
agree with as 'concerned citizens' while opponents were an 'angry mob'? I
had the chance to talk to the publisher of that paper when she was
hospitalized in the same room as my mother, and discovered she was further
to the left than Lenin.

That's not libel, that's bias. Bias is legal. Libel is not. If one
doesn't recognize the difference, he should stay out of the business.
He just doesn't get it.


Ironically those reporters found themselves arguing that they weren't
professionals when they wanted overtime pay.

http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=103

Like police or firefighters.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...
...
That's not libel, that's bias. Bias is legal. Libel is not. If one
doesn't recognize the difference, he should stay out of the business.
He just doesn't get it....

Ed Huntress

Bias hasn't always been legal either:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

I don't want to see the third estate claiming a more favorable
interpretation of the First Amendment for themselves than they accept for
outsiders.

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 12:52:16 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .
...
That's not libel, that's bias. Bias is legal. Libel is not. If one
doesn't recognize the difference, he should stay out of the business.
He just doesn't get it....

Ed Huntress

Bias hasn't always been legal either:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairness_Doctrine

I don't want to see the third estate claiming a more favorable
interpretation of the First Amendment for themselves than they accept for
outsiders.



Without knowing your age it's hard to know what to say here, except
that the Fairness Doctrine was the product of facts on the ground
during the early days of broadcasting, when there were few channels
(we got two TV stations, and considered ourselves lucky) and when TV,
particularly, wound up in a legal twilight zone between newspapers and
common carriers, such as the telephone companies. The FD was based on
the common-carrier side of the law, and similar legal principles apply
today for other common carriers. When cable came in, the FD went out.

But bias has always been part of the free press, more before 1950 than
at any time since. Now the Internet is turning it into a
yellow-journalism free-for-all again, like it was in the early days of
thr country. Bias is the normal state of the media, and works OK as
long as the opportunities to publish contrary views are readily
available.

As for journalists and the shield laws, as I said, I generally agree
that the constitutuional and philosophical basis for them, IMO, is
pretty flimsy. They came about largely because of Watergate and the
Pentagon Papers, and a series of revelations about government(s) using
their power to intimidate journalists from covering corruption and
governmental abuses. Again, you can cite individual cases that, on one
hand, will convince almost anyone that journalism needs some extra
protections to fulfill the intent of the First Amendment's press
freedom, and you can cite other cases that make the protections
themselves look like abuses.

We may disagree about this, but my view is that bloggers have debased
the whole enterprise and make special protections for the press even
more problematic. My blood boils when I see intentional slander and
libel hiding behind shield laws. In the balance, I'd be glad to do
away with those laws, given the present state of journalism.

--
Ed Huntress

On 12/8/2011 7:11 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Ed wrote in message
...
On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 08:49:59 -0500, "Jim Wilkins"
wrote:

It seems that Freedom of the Press applies only to those who the
Government
considers suitable to own and operate the press.

http://news.yahoo.com/federal-judge-...014039441.html


That's not the First Amendment, Jim. That's shield laws, which are of
questionable constitutionality to begin with. I say that as someone
who has made his living as a conventional journalist for roughly half
of my career.

I've never fully bought the reasoning that gives journalists such
extraordinary protection against claims of libel and defamation. If
you libel someone, it's libel, no matter who you are....
Ed Huntress

What bothers me is the qualification standard mentioned, which practically
is a government-issued license to carry your opinion in public.
"Hernandez said Cox was not a journalist because she offered no professional
qualifications as a journalist or legitimate news outlet. She had no
journalism education, credentials or affiliation with a recognized news
outlet, proof of adhering to journalistic standards such as editing or
checking her facts, evidence she produced an independent product or evidence
she ever tried to get both sides of the story.


After reading the paragraph above it would seem you have to be kidding
if you find that such a person would ever be seen as a journalist by
anyone and that includes the government. No professional qualification,
not affiliated with any news outlet, no education in the field, no
credentials or affiliation with a news outlet, no proof of any standards
or fact checking, and no evidence she produced an independent product or
tried to get both sides of the story. Whew! If that isn't an unqualified
person then who is? If this isn't an example of an ordinary person with
no journalistic qualifications whatsoever then I can't imagine who would
be.




How many officially credentialed reporters and their editors would fail
those tests? Have you ever seen a reporter characterize protesters they
agree with as 'concerned citizens' while opponents were an 'angry mob'? I
had the chance to talk to the publisher of that paper when she was
hospitalized in the same room as my mother, and discovered she was further
to the left than Lenin.


She failed all the tests of being a legitimate journalist, not just some
of them. And nobody says journalists have to be unbiased. But they
should at least meet a minimum standard of what a journalist is. She
didn't. Not by a long shot.


Ironically those reporters found themselves arguing that they weren't
professionals when they wanted overtime pay.


I've never seen it written anywhere that journalists can't be
hypocrites. Especially when it comes to how much they think they deserve
to be paid. In that regard they're like everybody else. They think they
deserve more pay than their bosses do.

Hawke

On Dec 8, 1:49*pm, Hawke wrote:



After reading the paragraph above it would seem you have to be kidding
if you find that such a person would ever be seen as a journalist by
anyone and that includes the government. No professional qualification,
not affiliated with any news outlet, no education in the field, no
credentials or affiliation with a news outlet, no proof of any standards
or fact checking, and no evidence she produced an independent product or
tried to get both sides of the story. Whew! If that isn't an unqualified
person then who is? If this isn't an example of an ordinary person with
no journalistic qualifications whatsoever then I can't imagine who would
be.


Hawke


Are journalists licensed by the state? The answer to that is NO. So
if there is no licensing, then there are no requirements to be a
journalist. One does not need any education in the field, no
affiliation with a news outlet, no proving of any standards.

In short an ordinary person does not need any journalistic
qualifications to be a journalist.

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From:
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 12:42 PM
Subject: First Amendment as vulnerable as Second

Are journalists licensed by the state? The answer to that is NO. So
if there is no licensing, then there are no requirements to be a
journalist.


Just because one does not need any journalistic qualifications to call
himself a "journalist" does not provide immunity to libel suits.


One does not need any education in the field, no
affiliation with a news outlet, no proving of any standards.


Not to argue with the village idiot, but in order to enjoy the protections
normally reserved for those affiliated with news outlets on the list of
recognized media including newspapers, magazines, television and radio news,
and motion pictures, then it would only seem logical that one should be
required to demonstrate some sort of credentials identifying himself as
having an affiliation with one or more news outlets that are on the list of
recognized media, including newspapers, magazines, television and radio
news, and motion pictures.


In short an ordinary person does not need any journalistic
qualifications to be a journalist.


Tell it to the judge....

On 12/8/2011 3:12 PM, PrecisionmachinisT wrote:

----- Original Message -----

Newsgroups: rec.crafts.metalworking
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 12:42 PM
Subject: First Amendment as vulnerable as Second

Are journalists licensed by the state? The answer to that is NO. So
if there is no licensing, then there are no requirements to be a
journalist.


Just because one does not need any journalistic qualifications to call
himself a "journalist" does not provide immunity to libel suits.


One does not need any education in the field, no
affiliation with a news outlet, no proving of any standards.


Not to argue with the village idiot, but in order to enjoy the protections
normally reserved for those affiliated with news outlets on the list of
recognized media including newspapers, magazines, television and radio news,
and motion pictures, then it would only seem logical that one should be
required to demonstrate some sort of credentials identifying himself as
having an affiliation with one or more news outlets that are on the list of
recognized media, including newspapers, magazines, television and radio
news, and motion pictures.


In short an ordinary person does not need any journalistic
qualifications to be a journalist.


Tell it to the judge....




Then he will tell you. But the point is that while you don't need any
license to be a journalist there are and have always been ways to know
who is a journalist and who isn't. First off, is that how you make your
living? Second, do you work for or are you affiliated with any kind of
recognized media source? Or is your work regularly published in a
reputable place? If you can't fulfill those kinds of things then you are
on thin ice. If the only way one can tell you are a journalist is
because you say you are then I would consider you are not one.

Hawke

On Dec 8, 8:14*pm, Hawke wrote:


Then he will tell you. But the point is that while you don't need any
license to be a journalist there are and have always been ways to know
who is a journalist and who isn't. First off, is that how you make your
living? Second, do you work for or are you affiliated with any kind of
recognized media source? Or is your work regularly published in a
reputable place? If you can't fulfill those kinds of things then you are
on thin ice. If the only way one can tell you are a journalist is
because you say you are then I would consider you are not one.

Hawke

So you are going to say that the following is not a journalist. A
young person who inherits a lot of money so he does not need to work
can not be a journalist because that is not how he makes his living?
Or the independent correspondent who is not affiliated with any
recognized media source is not a journalist. Or the young person who
writes news stories and submits them to reputable places, but is not
regularly published, is not a journalist.

In my estimation a journalist is one who writes. Whether he is
published or not does not matter. Whether he makes a living at it
does not matter. Whether he is affiliated with one of the media does
not matter.

Dan

On Dec 8, 6:12*pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


Just because one does not need any journalistic qualifications to call
himself a "journalist" does not provide immunity to libel suits.



I do not think that being affiliated with one of the media, being paid
for articles written , and calling himself a journalist, provides any
immunity from libel suits. Don't newpapers get sued for libel?


*One does not need any education in the field, no
affiliation with a news outlet, no proving of any standards.

Not to argue with the village idiot, but in order to enjoy the protections
normally reserved for those affiliated with news outlets on the list of
recognized media including newspapers, magazines, television and radio news,
and motion pictures, then it would only seem logical that one should be
required to demonstrate some sort of credentials identifying himself as
having an affiliation with one or more news outlets that are on the list of
recognized media, including newspapers, magazines, television and radio
news, and motion pictures.



In short an ordinary person does not need any journalistic
qualifications to be a journalist.

Tell it to the judge....

In article 8be485ed-82d4-4043-bf82-
, says...

On Dec 8, 8:14*pm, Hawke wrote:


Then he will tell you. But the point is that while you don't need any
license to be a journalist there are and have always been ways to know
who is a journalist and who isn't. First off, is that how you make your
living? Second, do you work for or are you affiliated with any kind of
recognized media source? Or is your work regularly published in a
reputable place? If you can't fulfill those kinds of things then you are
on thin ice. If the only way one can tell you are a journalist is
because you say you are then I would consider you are not one.

Hawke

So you are going to say that the following is not a journalist. A
young person who inherits a lot of money so he does not need to work
can not be a journalist because that is not how he makes his living?
Or the independent correspondent who is not affiliated with any
recognized media source is not a journalist. Or the young person who
writes news stories and submits them to reputable places, but is not
regularly published, is not a journalist.

In my estimation a journalist is one who writes.

Hitler wrote. Was he a journalist?

Whether he is
published or not does not matter. Whether he makes a living at it
does not matter. Whether he is affiliated with one of the media does
not matter.

Dan

On Dec 8, 10:24*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 8, 6:12*pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

Just because one does not need any journalistic qualifications to call
himself a "journalist" does not provide immunity to libel suits.

I do not think that being affiliated with one of the media, being paid
for articles written , and calling himself a journalist, provides any
immunity from libel suits. Don't *newpapers get sued for libel?


In the more general case does one need to be recognized as a
"journalist" to exercise the Freedom of the Press?

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 14:39:06 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Dec 8, 10:24*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 8, 6:12*pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

Just because one does not need any journalistic qualifications to call
himself a "journalist" does not provide immunity to libel suits.

I do not think that being affiliated with one of the media, being paid
for articles written , and calling himself a journalist, provides any
immunity from libel suits. Don't *newpapers get sued for libel?


In the more general case does one need to be recognized as a
"journalist" to exercise the Freedom of the Press?

Under the law? It depends on which freedoms you're talking about. The
general freedom to publish is open to everyone. Regarding shielding
reporters from having to reveal sources, that varies by state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shield_..._United_States

It doesn't apply to self-proclaimed "journalists" who are not
recognized by the laws and the courts.

Regarding libel, public figures generally have to prove actual malice
to sue a reporter. This is a really fuzzy area and it may also apply
to bloggers; I haven't kept up with the cases. Otherwise, reporters
are liable to libel suits if they defame someone and it can be proven
that the reporter intended malice toward the public figure. If the
subject is not a public figure, the reporter is generally subject to
the same libel standards as anyone else.

The question of who is a journalist is in legal turmoi because of the
Internet. Judges generally are calling it pretty well, about the same
as the general public would call it. Arcane or tedious definitions
need not apply. One may prove his point in terms of dictionary
definitions, but lose the case in court. Common understandings are
more important than academic or extreme definitions in this area. The
terms used in law are always, preferably, those that are generally
understood by the public.

--
Ed Huntress

On 12/8/2011 7:17 PM, wrote:
On Dec 8, 8:14 pm, wrote:


Then he will tell you. But the point is that while you don't need any
license to be a journalist there are and have always been ways to know
who is a journalist and who isn't. First off, is that how you make your
living? Second, do you work for or are you affiliated with any kind of
recognized media source? Or is your work regularly published in a
reputable place? If you can't fulfill those kinds of things then you are
on thin ice. If the only way one can tell you are a journalist is
because you say you are then I would consider you are not one.

Hawke

So you are going to say that the following is not a journalist. A
young person who inherits a lot of money so he does not need to work
can not be a journalist because that is not how he makes his living?
Or the independent correspondent who is not affiliated with any
recognized media source is not a journalist. Or the young person who
writes news stories and submits them to reputable places, but is not
regularly published, is not a journalist.

In my estimation a journalist is one who writes. Whether he is
published or not does not matter. Whether he makes a living at it
does not matter. Whether he is affiliated with one of the media does
not matter.

Dan



I think you would admit that anyone who writes is a writer. But is
everyone who writes really a "writer"?

Hawke

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 23:35:29 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


So you are going to say that the following is not a journalist. A
young person who inherits a lot of money so he does not need to work
can not be a journalist because that is not how he makes his living?
Or the independent correspondent who is not affiliated with any
recognized media source is not a journalist. Or the young person who
writes news stories and submits them to reputable places, but is not
regularly published, is not a journalist.

In my estimation a journalist is one who writes.

Hitler wrote. Was he a journalist?

So did Hemmingway. Was he a Journalist before he sold his first book?



One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Fri, 9 Dec 2011 14:39:06 -0800 (PST), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Dec 8, 10:24*pm, " wrote:
On Dec 8, 6:12*pm, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:

Just because one does not need any journalistic qualifications to call
himself a "journalist" does not provide immunity to libel suits.

I do not think that being affiliated with one of the media, being paid
for articles written , and calling himself a journalist, provides any
immunity from libel suits. Don't *newpapers get sued for libel?


In the more general case does one need to be recognized as a
"journalist" to exercise the Freedom of the Press?

Excellent question!! Bravo!!

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:43:50 -0800, Gunner Asch
wrote:

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011 23:35:29 -0500, "J. Clarke"
wrote:


So you are going to say that the following is not a journalist. A
young person who inherits a lot of money so he does not need to work
can not be a journalist because that is not how he makes his living?
Or the independent correspondent who is not affiliated with any
recognized media source is not a journalist. Or the young person who
writes news stories and submits them to reputable places, but is not
regularly published, is not a journalist.

In my estimation a journalist is one who writes.

Hitler wrote. Was he a journalist?

So did Hemmingway. Was he a Journalist before he sold his first book?

Hemingway was a reporter for the _Kansas City Star_ before he wrote
books, so he was a journalist. Writing novels does not make one a
journalist. It made him a novelist.

--
Ed Huntress

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

Hitler wrote. Was he a journalist?

So did Hemmingway. Was he a Journalist before he sold his first book?

Hemingway was a reporter for the _Kansas City Star_ before he wrote
books, so he was a journalist. Writing novels does not make one a
journalist. It made him a novelist.


A novel concept...

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:43:11 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .

Hitler wrote. Was he a journalist?

So did Hemmingway. Was he a Journalist before he sold his first book?

Hemingway was a reporter for the _Kansas City Star_ before he wrote
books, so he was a journalist. Writing novels does not make one a
journalist. It made him a novelist.


A novel concept...

Just wait. Someone will twist it into a pretzel. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:43:11 -0800, "PrecisionmachinisT"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
.. .

Hitler wrote. Was he a journalist?

So did Hemmingway. Was he a Journalist before he sold his first book?

Hemingway was a reporter for the _Kansas City Star_ before he wrote
books, so he was a journalist. Writing novels does not make one a
journalist. It made him a novelist.


A novel concept...

Did it stop him from being a Journalist though?

VBG

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch