On 10/14/2011 8:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:51:17 -0500,
wrote:


Regarding the ATF form 4473, that form is kept in the possession of the
DEALER and is not communicated in any way to the federal government. If, and
only if, the dealer goes out of business, he must box up all his 4473 forms
and send them to the ATF.

Unless...an ATF drone comes into the shop and asks to see the records.
He/She/It is allowed to copy any and all information from those forms
and take it with them. The form stays with the dealer...but the
information goes off to LaLa land .

Nope, ATF can ask only for specific forms for a specific gun while
following a paper trail. They may try to lean on a dealer to get more
general info, but if he's kept his books properly, he doesn't have to
let them see anything but a specific 4473 and it's entry in his bound book.

OTOH, I try to by w/o paper whenever I can, and those guns I did buy
from dealers I later sold at gun shows. Of course, I kept no records
because I didn't want the ATF to think I was operating as an unlicensed
dealer.

David

Lets see. You've bought gun(s) on paper, and then sold them
without a paper trail. So, you're the last known owner? That
might not be the effect you're trying to create.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"David R. Birch" wrote in message
...

OTOH, I try to by w/o paper whenever I can, and those guns I
did buy
from dealers I later sold at gun shows. Of course, I kept no
records
because I didn't want the ATF to think I was operating as an
unlicensed
dealer.

David

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 00:11:26 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 10/14/2011 8:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:51:17 -0500,
wrote:


Regarding the ATF form 4473, that form is kept in the possession of the
DEALER and is not communicated in any way to the federal government. If, and
only if, the dealer goes out of business, he must box up all his 4473 forms
and send them to the ATF.

Unless...an ATF drone comes into the shop and asks to see the records.
He/She/It is allowed to copy any and all information from those forms
and take it with them. The form stays with the dealer...but the
information goes off to LaLa land .

Nope, ATF can ask only for specific forms for a specific gun while
following a paper trail. They may try to lean on a dealer to get more
general info, but if he's kept his books properly, he doesn't have to
let them see anything but a specific 4473 and it's entry in his bound book.

Thats what the legalities say. Try denying any ATF agent access to your
forms..and see how long you stay in business.


OTOH, I try to by w/o paper whenever I can, and those guns I did buy
from dealers I later sold at gun shows. Of course, I kept no records
because I didn't want the ATF to think I was operating as an unlicensed
dealer.

David

"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

On 10/15/2011 5:03 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Lets see. You've bought gun(s) on paper, and then sold them
without a paper trail. So, you're the last known owner? That
might not be the effect you're trying to create.


NBD, if it was used in a crime, I wasn't there. The trail may end with
me, but that isn't going to lead to charges. I think the last gun I sold
privately that had paper was an M1 Garand, not popular with the gang
bangers.

David

On 10/15/2011 5:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 00:11:26 -0500, "David R.
wrote:

On 10/14/2011 8:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:51:17 -0500,
wrote:


Regarding the ATF form 4473, that form is kept in the possession of the
DEALER and is not communicated in any way to the federal government. If, and
only if, the dealer goes out of business, he must box up all his 4473 forms
and send them to the ATF.

Unless...an ATF drone comes into the shop and asks to see the records.
He/She/It is allowed to copy any and all information from those forms
and take it with them. The form stays with the dealer...but the
information goes off to LaLa land .

Nope, ATF can ask only for specific forms for a specific gun while
following a paper trail. They may try to lean on a dealer to get more
general info, but if he's kept his books properly, he doesn't have to
let them see anything but a specific 4473 and it's entry in his bound book.

Thats what the legalities say. Try denying any ATF agent access to your
forms..and see how long you stay in business.

I never said denying access to what they are legally allowed to see. If
they want more, that's what lawyers are for. IME, if you stand up to
them, they back down.

David

On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 07:59:57 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 10/15/2011 5:06 AM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 00:11:26 -0500, "David R.
wrote:

On 10/14/2011 8:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:51:17 -0500,
wrote:


Regarding the ATF form 4473, that form is kept in the possession of the
DEALER and is not communicated in any way to the federal government. If, and
only if, the dealer goes out of business, he must box up all his 4473 forms
and send them to the ATF.

Unless...an ATF drone comes into the shop and asks to see the records.
He/She/It is allowed to copy any and all information from those forms
and take it with them. The form stays with the dealer...but the
information goes off to LaLa land .

Nope, ATF can ask only for specific forms for a specific gun while
following a paper trail. They may try to lean on a dealer to get more
general info, but if he's kept his books properly, he doesn't have to
let them see anything but a specific 4473 and it's entry in his bound book.

Thats what the legalities say. Try denying any ATF agent access to your
forms..and see how long you stay in business.

I never said denying access to what they are legally allowed to see. If
they want more, that's what lawyers are for. IME, if you stand up to
them, they back down.

David

Far far too many gun dealers have tried that in years past..and wound up
with a ****ing herd of ATF drones in their shops tearing everything
apart....toting off stock, and either never seeing it again, or
ultimately getting it back in 55 gallon steel drums all bashed to ****
and rusted into shapelessness

Thos sorts of DOCUMENTED cases are myrid.

Lawyers? And the ATF? Perhaps in the past 5 yrs...maybe. But you seem
to be forgetting the thousands of innocent people who were murdered,
imprisoned, made homeless etc etc by the ATF for the past 50 yrs.....

http://www.atfabuse.com/

Hell...simply Google "Atf Abuse"

half a Million hits on that two word search alone

Gunner



"In the history of mankind, there have always been men and women who's goal
in life is to take down nations. We have just elected such a man to run our
country." - David Lloyyd (2008)

Gunner Asch on Sat, 15 Oct 2011 03:06:33 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Sat, 15 Oct 2011 00:11:26 -0500, "David R. Birch"
wrote:

On 10/14/2011 8:44 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:51:17 -0500,
wrote:


Regarding the ATF form 4473, that form is kept in the possession of the
DEALER and is not communicated in any way to the federal government. If, and
only if, the dealer goes out of business, he must box up all his 4473 forms
and send them to the ATF.

Unless...an ATF drone comes into the shop and asks to see the records.
He/She/It is allowed to copy any and all information from those forms
and take it with them. The form stays with the dealer...but the
information goes off to LaLa land .

Nope, ATF can ask only for specific forms for a specific gun while
following a paper trail. They may try to lean on a dealer to get more
general info, but if he's kept his books properly, he doesn't have to
let them see anything but a specific 4473 and it's entry in his bound book.

Thats what the legalities say. Try denying any ATF agent access to your
forms..and see how long you stay in business.

I have heard, however, of dealers keeping their records on Onion
Skin paper. Apparently, that makes it a gold plated pain to copy the
usual ways.
--
pyotr
Go not to the Net for answers, for it will tell you Yes and no. And
you are a bloody fool, only an ignorant cretin would even ask the
question, forty two, 47, the second door, and how many blonde lawyers
does it take to change a lightbulb.