"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:

(...)

These innovations are great to think about. Then it comes time to analyze
something gone wrong...

One More Thing To Break.

Speaking of which, my wife's Sonata died today -- the battery died
because
her passenger left the door ajar at lunchtime -- and I was freaked when I
went over to school to jump start it. The intrusion alarm was feebly
wailing
a plaintive cry, like a baby animal that was being torn apart by a raptor
or
something, and I couldn't get it to stop. There was just enough juice
left
in the battery to give out that feeble squeak, but not enough to react to
the remote. When I connected the jumper cables it went into full blast --
with my head under the hood and about 18 inches from the alarm. Jesus. I
didn't know I could still jump like that.

Queue sympathetic headache. Ouch!

I want something I can fix with a screwdriver and a box of tools I could
put
under my arm. A Lotus 6 or 7 might do it. No doors, even.

I've owned 'simple' cars.

I *will not* go back to carburetors, for I have *seen* the glory
of fuel injection on a cold and dreary morning!

I *will not* return to breaker points for I have known the
power of the Fat White Electronic Ignition Spark!

I *will not* slide back to the days of the bias ply tire
for I have sat in awe over the Indestructible Radial Ply!

Can I get an Amen, brothers and sisters.

....As long as it isn't late Saturday night and you're in the boondocks. My
trunk is lighter these days, however, without two stuffed toolboxes in the
trunk.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

I've owned 'simple' cars.

I *will not* go back to carburetors, for I have *seen* the glory
of fuel injection on a cold and dreary morning!

I *will not* return to breaker points for I have known the
power of the Fat White Electronic Ignition Spark!

I *will not* slide back to the days of the bias ply tire
for I have sat in awe over the Indestructible Radial Ply!

Can I get an Amen, brothers and sisters.

...As long as it isn't late Saturday night and you're in the boondocks.

I'll make that trade! I spent many lost weeknights and
weekends under the hood so that I could make it to work the next
day. Fergit that, man!

Let us not forget the blessing of the Onboard Diagnostics!
When things (rarely) do go pear-shaped, the OBD is a
heck of a time saver. Imagine troubleshooting an intermittent
sensor problem without it. (Shudder)

My trunk is lighter these days, however, without two stuffed toolboxes
in the trunk.

As is mine! (Though the boxes remained in the trunk a while
before I noticed that my Japanese - designed car wasn't failing.)

Reliability leads to better gas mileage. Who knew?

--Winston

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance could
be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

You mentioned accuracy of measurement but then mentioned your light bulb
method in a seemingly contradiction of your intent.

Apparently it was just a troll for childish attention. Did you have trouble
in school with the other children rejecting you, too?


----------------------

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
At first, I didn't understand why others here call you an asshole....

Oh, and btw, prior to the digital age, laboratory pyrometers were exactly
based on relative brightness, which could be assessed with some precision.

If you wanted to be real anal (speaking of assholes), you could have a bulb
powered from a wall outlet, and then power the bike-driven bulb to
comparative brightness, quite accurately.

But, as I stated in my other reply to you, a much better solution is to
simply monitor a voltmeter while powering the bulb.

Are you still LOLing???
--

On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 23:42:44 -0600, Don Foreman
wrote:


Will a typical 3 ph motor throw out juice, if driven by a pony motor?

In a way. It must be excited by the proper 3phase AC voltage, but if
the pony motor then spins the 3phase motor above synchronous speed,
the direction of current flow will be such as to deliver power to the
power line. An electric meter on that line would run backwards.

For UK residents but may apply elsewhere. The old analogue
electric power meters happily spun forwards or backwards to read
power consumed or power fed back into the supply. In the UK the
supply authorities are now replacing them with digital meters
that are programmed NOT to register negative power. Power fed
back into the supply will be happily accepted by the supply
authority but will not reduce the meter reading.

Not sure why they are programmed this way but the effect with
many Solar PV tariffs is to reduce the claimed saving In the
nett electricity bill. Power that is registered outside daylight
hours cannot be reduced or cancelled by daylight solar energy.

Jim

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance could
be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

You mentioned accuracy of measurement but then mentioned your light bulb
method in a seemingly contradiction of your intent.

Ergo the voltmeter. What part of E^2/R don't YOU get???
And true, since the voltage is squared, you'll proly want to squint a bit
harder at the volt reading.....

Man, iffin you cain't get simple notions of resistive power correck, wtf are
you doing blabbering about complicated ****, like motors??

What did someone say..... don't quit yer day job??


Apparently it was just a troll for childish attention.

No, it was the natural evolution of thread drift, from someone else who
mentioned wattage from exercise.

Did you have trouble
in school with the other children rejecting you, too?

A bit, but mostly because I was already very good looking as a kid, and had
an 8" dick in the 6th grade.
fyi, it's now 12", and at your service.....

Did you have trouble with the kids beating the everlovin **** out of you??
Are you replacing Jon Banquer?
Who's now pushing a hotdog cart somewhere in Chula Vista....
Nothing wrong with that, btw, just that *I* wouldn't buy a hot dog from jb,
even it was irradiated with gamma rays.
--
EA





----------------------

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
At first, I didn't understand why others here call you an asshole....

Oh, and btw, prior to the digital age, laboratory pyrometers were exactly
based on relative brightness, which could be assessed with some precision.

If you wanted to be real anal (speaking of assholes), you could have a
bulb
powered from a wall outlet, and then power the bike-driven bulb to
comparative brightness, quite accurately.

But, as I stated in my other reply to you, a much better solution is to
simply monitor a voltmeter while powering the bulb.

Are you still LOLing???
--

I haven't ran into that situation here. I doubt it would be
approved...yet...until somebody thinks of it...shhhhhhh.

It would make sense as they do not want your extra energy in off peak hours.
They are try to give the stuff away, already.

-------------------

wrote in message ...
For UK residents but may apply elsewhere. The old analogue
electric power meters happily spun forwards or backwards to read
power consumed or power fed back into the supply. In the UK the
supply authorities are now replacing them with digital meters
that are programmed NOT to register negative power. Power fed
back into the supply will be happily accepted by the supply
authority but will not reduce the meter reading.

Not sure why they are programmed this way but the effect with
many Solar PV tariffs is to reduce the claimed saving In the
nett electricity bill. Power that is registered outside daylight
hours cannot be reduced or cancelled by daylight solar energy.

Jim

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:22:13 -0500, "Josepi"
wrote:

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance could
be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

The brilliance (using the term loosely) is proportional to
voltage^3.5. In other words, a small change in voltage results in a
relatively large change in "brilliance".

--
Ned Simmons

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

Let us not forget the blessing of the Onboard Diagnostics!
When things (rarely) do go pear-shaped, the OBD is a
heck of a time saver. Imagine troubleshooting an intermittent
sensor problem without it. (Shudder)

I don't have a diagnostic scanner. Just a sign under the hood that says
"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." And there is prayer.

My scanner has produced miracles that would have started
religions 100 years ago. Consistently, too.

You didn't have an '87 Mazda 626 with manual transmission. Mine was rebuilt
twice, and I'm really easy on the gearbox. Mazda won't admit they made cars
that year.

Mazda were very slow learners, then.

In '76 I remember absolutely trashing the manual transmission
on the company Mazda pickup, on the way back from the airport
after picking up my boss and the lead sales guy!
I wasn't being aggressive or anything. One moment it was
working fine and the next it was an inert pile of metal.

None of us were particularly happy, that afternoon.

(...)

I admire the cars made today. They just don't fit my lifestyle. My '67 Ford
Bronco saw a lot of off-road duty, and the inside looked like you could hose
it down to clear out the mud. The inside of an SUV today looks like the
lobby of a New Orleans whorehouse, with surround sound. The only thing
missing is the crystal chandelier.

Tacky. And not in a good way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4QgW...eature=related

--Winston

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

Let us not forget the blessing of the Onboard Diagnostics!
When things (rarely) do go pear-shaped, the OBD is a
heck of a time saver. Imagine troubleshooting an intermittent
sensor problem without it. (Shudder)

I don't have a diagnostic scanner. Just a sign under the hood that says
"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." And there is prayer.

My scanner has produced miracles that would have started
religions 100 years ago. Consistently, too.

You didn't have an '87 Mazda 626 with manual transmission. Mine was
rebuilt
twice, and I'm really easy on the gearbox. Mazda won't admit they made
cars
that year.

Mazda were very slow learners, then.

In '76 I remember absolutely trashing the manual transmission
on the company Mazda pickup, on the way back from the airport
after picking up my boss and the lead sales guy!
I wasn't being aggressive or anything. One moment it was
working fine and the next it was an inert pile of metal.

None of us were particularly happy, that afternoon.

(...)

I admire the cars made today. They just don't fit my lifestyle. My '67
Ford
Bronco saw a lot of off-road duty, and the inside looked like you could
hose
it down to clear out the mud. The inside of an SUV today looks like the
lobby of a New Orleans whorehouse, with surround sound. The only thing
missing is the crystal chandelier.

Tacky. And not in a good way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4QgW...eature=related

That's one of my favorite Simpson's routines. I think my neighbor has one of
those. When gas hits $4/gallon, they just leave it parked in the driveway
and worship it.

--
Ed Huntress

Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message

(...)

Tacky. And not in a good way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4QgW...eature=related

That's one of my favorite Simpson's routines. I think my neighbor has one of
those. When gas hits $4/gallon, they just leave it parked in the driveway
and worship it.

That's the fourth time today you made me laugh out loud.

Thanks Ed.

--Winston -- "Angry clam, my ass"

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:28:51 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...


[If this is showing up multiple times, my apology. My 'puter's clock screwed
up; I thought I deleted the first reply; wrote a second reply; and lost that
one, too. My "sent" box says I sent them in 2001. g]


(...)

I've owned 'simple' cars.

I *will not* go back to carburetors, for I have *seen* the glory
of fuel injection on a cold and dreary morning!

I *will not* return to breaker points for I have known the
power of the Fat White Electronic Ignition Spark!

I *will not* slide back to the days of the bias ply tire
for I have sat in awe over the Indestructible Radial Ply!

Can I get an Amen, brothers and sisters.

...As long as it isn't late Saturday night and you're in the boondocks.

I'll make that trade! I spent many lost weeknights and
weekends under the hood so that I could make it to work the next
day. Fergit that, man!

Let us not forget the blessing of the Onboard Diagnostics!
When things (rarely) do go pear-shaped, the OBD is a
heck of a time saver. Imagine troubleshooting an intermittent
sensor problem without it. (Shudder)

I don't have a diagnostic scanner. Just a sign under the hood that says
"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." And there is prayer.


My trunk is lighter these days, however, without two stuffed toolboxes
in the trunk.

As is mine! (Though the boxes remained in the trunk a while
before I noticed that my Japanese - designed car wasn't failing.)

You didn't have an '87 Mazda 626 with manual transmission. Mine was rebuilt
twice, and I'm really easy on the gearbox. Mazda won't admit they made cars
that year.


Strange, I had a '72 Mazda RX2 and the shifting was one of the best.
It would even find reverse at 30 mph forward and 2nd while going 30
mph backwards and break the tires loose. I tried really hard to break
one once. That car died valiantly. Probably no compression or welded
triangular rotor to the block from over heating.


SW



Reliability leads to better gas mileage. Who knew?

I admire the cars made today. They just don't fit my lifestyle. My '67 Ford
Bronco saw a lot of off-road duty, and the inside looked like you could hose
it down to clear out the mud. The inside of an SUV today looks like the
lobby of a New Orleans whorehouse, with surround sound. The only thing
missing is the crystal chandelier.

"Sunworshipper" SW@GWNTUNDRA wrote in message
...
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:28:51 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...


[If this is showing up multiple times, my apology. My 'puter's clock
screwed
up; I thought I deleted the first reply; wrote a second reply; and lost
that
one, too. My "sent" box says I sent them in 2001. g]


(...)

I've owned 'simple' cars.

I *will not* go back to carburetors, for I have *seen* the glory
of fuel injection on a cold and dreary morning!

I *will not* return to breaker points for I have known the
power of the Fat White Electronic Ignition Spark!

I *will not* slide back to the days of the bias ply tire
for I have sat in awe over the Indestructible Radial Ply!

Can I get an Amen, brothers and sisters.

...As long as it isn't late Saturday night and you're in the boondocks.

I'll make that trade! I spent many lost weeknights and
weekends under the hood so that I could make it to work the next
day. Fergit that, man!

Let us not forget the blessing of the Onboard Diagnostics!
When things (rarely) do go pear-shaped, the OBD is a
heck of a time saver. Imagine troubleshooting an intermittent
sensor problem without it. (Shudder)

I don't have a diagnostic scanner. Just a sign under the hood that says
"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." And there is prayer.


My trunk is lighter these days, however, without two stuffed toolboxes
in the trunk.

As is mine! (Though the boxes remained in the trunk a while
before I noticed that my Japanese - designed car wasn't failing.)

You didn't have an '87 Mazda 626 with manual transmission. Mine was
rebuilt
twice, and I'm really easy on the gearbox. Mazda won't admit they made
cars
that year.


Strange, I had a '72 Mazda RX2 and the shifting was one of the best.
It would even find reverse at 30 mph forward and 2nd while going 30
mph backwards and break the tires loose. I tried really hard to break
one once. That car died valiantly. Probably no compression or welded
triangular rotor to the block from over heating.

The 5-speed gearbox in the '87 626 had an all-new housing design, to save
some weight and cost, and it had very narrow bearings and shallow and
thin-walled bearing bosses. The bearings would wear loose in their seats.
And, because they were thinner than their standard design, the bearings and
races themselves weren't as strong and would run out; the play in the shafts
would become excessive; and the varying load that resulted from the wear
accelerated the bearing wear. In one ten-mile stretch, I successively lost
third, second, and fourth gear. I limped home with first and fifth.

A year later, the same thing happened. But this time, the whole box bound up
tight. No gears at all.

In '88, Mazda reverted to their pre-'87 design.

--
Ed Huntress





SW



Reliability leads to better gas mileage. Who knew?

I admire the cars made today. They just don't fit my lifestyle. My '67
Ford
Bronco saw a lot of off-road duty, and the inside looked like you could
hose
it down to clear out the mud. The inside of an SUV today looks like the
lobby of a New Orleans whorehouse, with surround sound. The only thing
missing is the crystal chandelier.

Existential Angst wrote in
rec.crafts.metalworking on Tue, 8 Mar 2011 23:24:34 -0500:

Awl --
Should be spelled "All".

So I'm amassing a collection of perm. mag. DC motors for my various
(de)generative follies, but a friend said he took apart a gas powered
generator, and observed no magnets, with both stator and rotor being
wound -- suggesting that AC induction motors should provide juice, but mine
don't.

Was my friend wrong, or can wound rotors/stators yield juice, and if so,
under what conditions?

You would like the 'book' _alternator secrets_ . Covers automotive
alternators mostly, but has a section on using induction motors as
generators. I got my copy from lindsay publications.
http://www.lindsaybks.com/index.html


From what I remember, you may need to hit the windings with some
current to get things started. A car battery should do, just for a
second.
--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

"Josepi" wrote:

Not completely true.
Only reactive power (RVA) will flow back into the line and no "real" power
will flow into the line,except for losses due to heat in the "consumption"
direction.

The kW and kWh meter will not indicate backwards in this situation. The kVAR
and kVARh meters will indicate backward.
This is common with elevators that use their own motors for braking on
descent.

This is nicknamed "rotating capacitor" by some electric utilities and used
to correct power factor on lines and systems.


Not true, or only a little so.
A 3 Ph induction motor WILL output power to the grid, WHEN RUN OVER
SYNCHRONOUS SPEED. THis is NOT a rotating capacitor! It will still be
"consuming" reactive power (vars) just like it was when running as a
motor. This is an induction generator. THey are commonly found in wind
turbines, and pumped storage systems.

A rotating condenser (capacitor) is a SYNCHRONOUS motor that is
excited past unity power factor on it's field winding. [i.e. more
excitation than needed when running as a motor] it is rotating at
exactly synchronous speed. Attempt to rotate it faster (by sticking a
primer mover on it) and you have a generator. Put a load on the shaft
and you have a motor.




-----------------------
"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
In a way. It must be excited by the proper 3phase AC voltage, but if
the pony motor then spins the 3phase motor above synchronous speed,
the direction of current flow will be such as to deliver power to the
power line. An electric meter on that line would run backwards.


Will a typical 3 ph motor throw out juice, if driven by a pony motor?


jk

"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Nice.

How do you excite the windings ?


2 Capacitors



C2C connection gives you single phase off of a 3 phase motor, rpm ( 60
hz )
is via throttle governor and isnt particularily critical, 20% is probably
okay but if in doubt use a ole telechron clock, and compare with a quartz
unit..they bothe should read within a few seconds after a minute's time on
line...if not, then adjust your throttle to suit.
--

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 09:22:13 -0500, "Josepi"
wrote:
Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage

Not in an incandescant lightbulb.

Josepi wrote:

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance could
be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.


Lightbulbs are not a linear load. Their resistance goes up as the
voltage increases. You would need to monitor the voltage and the current
to get anything useful.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

Do you have any links for information along those line? . I never worked on
"rotating capacitors" for power factor correction usage and would find that
interesting . Mostly I worked with smaller motors under 5HP, transformers
and transmission lines and communication stuff. The few PH correction
capacitors we had were static units under 60 MVARs and I would think the
protection circuits would be simpler.


-------------

"jk" wrote in message ...
Not true, or only a little so.
A 3 Ph induction motor WILL output power to the grid, WHEN RUN OVER
SYNCHRONOUS SPEED. THis is NOT a rotating capacitor! It will still be
"consuming" reactive power (vars) just like it was when running as a
motor. This is an induction generator. THey are commonly found in wind
turbines, and pumped storage systems.

A rotating condenser (capacitor) is a SYNCHRONOUS motor that is
excited past unity power factor on it's field winding. [i.e. more
excitation than needed when running as a motor] it is rotating at
exactly synchronous speed. Attempt to rotate it faster (by sticking a
primer mover on it) and you have a generator. Put a load on the shaft
and you have a motor.



"Josepi" wrote:
This is nicknamed "rotating capacitor" by some electric utilities and used
to correct power factor on lines and systems.

2 capacitors never gets me that excited.

Where are they used? Was there a second set of windings on the rotor,
armature, stator, field laminations?
Is there a circuit available online or of a work-alike?


---
"PrecisionmachinisT" wrote in message
...
2 Capacitors



"Josepi" wrote in message
...
Nice.

How do you excite the windings ?




C2C connection gives you single phase off of a 3 phase motor, rpm ( 60
hz )
is via throttle governor and isnt particularily critical, 20% is probably
okay but if in doubt use a ole telechron clock, and compare with a quartz
unit..they bothe should read within a few seconds after a minute's time on
line...if not, then adjust your throttle to suit.

Sounds like a guy from the old days" of car generators. This was common
then.

----

"dan" wrote in message ...
From what I remember, you may need to hit the windings with some
current to get things started. A car battery should do, just for a
second.
--

Dan H.
northshore MA.

On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 17:41:21 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Sunworshipper" SW@GWNTUNDRA wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 10 Mar 2011 11:28:51 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Winston" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...


[If this is showing up multiple times, my apology. My 'puter's clock
screwed
up; I thought I deleted the first reply; wrote a second reply; and lost
that
one, too. My "sent" box says I sent them in 2001. g]


(...)

I've owned 'simple' cars.

I *will not* go back to carburetors, for I have *seen* the glory
of fuel injection on a cold and dreary morning!

I *will not* return to breaker points for I have known the
power of the Fat White Electronic Ignition Spark!

I *will not* slide back to the days of the bias ply tire
for I have sat in awe over the Indestructible Radial Ply!

Can I get an Amen, brothers and sisters.

...As long as it isn't late Saturday night and you're in the boondocks.

I'll make that trade! I spent many lost weeknights and
weekends under the hood so that I could make it to work the next
day. Fergit that, man!

Let us not forget the blessing of the Onboard Diagnostics!
When things (rarely) do go pear-shaped, the OBD is a
heck of a time saver. Imagine troubleshooting an intermittent
sensor problem without it. (Shudder)

I don't have a diagnostic scanner. Just a sign under the hood that says
"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here." And there is prayer.


My trunk is lighter these days, however, without two stuffed toolboxes
in the trunk.

As is mine! (Though the boxes remained in the trunk a while
before I noticed that my Japanese - designed car wasn't failing.)

You didn't have an '87 Mazda 626 with manual transmission. Mine was
rebuilt
twice, and I'm really easy on the gearbox. Mazda won't admit they made
cars
that year.


Strange, I had a '72 Mazda RX2 and the shifting was one of the best.
It would even find reverse at 30 mph forward and 2nd while going 30
mph backwards and break the tires loose. I tried really hard to break
one once. That car died valiantly. Probably no compression or welded
triangular rotor to the block from over heating.

The 5-speed gearbox in the '87 626 had an all-new housing design, to save
some weight and cost, and it had very narrow bearings and shallow and
thin-walled bearing bosses. The bearings would wear loose in their seats.
And, because they were thinner than their standard design, the bearings and
races themselves weren't as strong and would run out; the play in the shafts
would become excessive; and the varying load that resulted from the wear
accelerated the bearing wear. In one ten-mile stretch, I successively lost
third, second, and fourth gear. I limped home with first and fifth.

A year later, the same thing happened. But this time, the whole box bound up
tight. No gears at all.

In '88, Mazda reverted to their pre-'87 design.


1st and 5th not good. A friend lent me a car when my '70 MGB got
vandalized, was something like a '70 Toyota Celica with only 2nd and
4th. for a couple of weeks. The MG shifted fantastically well.


SW

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Josepi wrote:

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance
could be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

Lightbulbs are not a linear load. Their resistance goes up as the
voltage increases. You would need to monitor the voltage and the current
to get anything useful.

Just a nitpick, but technically, the resistance goes up as the _temperature_
increases. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

Josepi wrote:

Nice.

How do you excite the windings ?

Gently stroke them while saying romantic things.

Hope This Helps!
Rich

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Josepi wrote:

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance
could be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

Lightbulbs are not a linear load. Their resistance goes up as the
voltage increases. You would need to monitor the voltage and the current
to get anything useful.

Just a nitpick, but technically, the resistance goes up as the
_temperature_
increases. :-)

Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?
--
EA


heers!
Rich

Did we change the subject to fluorescent bulbs now?

We always laughed about the ones that didn't want to start, in those terms.

-----------

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Gently stroke them while saying romantic things.

Hope This Helps!
Rich



Josepi wrote:

Nice.

How do you excite the windings ?

The ambient temperature may have a slight effect on that curve also since
as, as Rich so graciously pointed out, "the resistance goes up as the
temperature_"

Perhaps lamp manufacturer sites?


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?



"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Just a nitpick, but technically, the resistance goes up as the
temperature_
increases. :-)


Josepi wrote:
Lightbulbs are not a linear load. Their resistance goes up as the
voltage increases. You would need to monitor the voltage and the current
to get anything useful.

Existential Angst wrote:

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Josepi wrote:

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance
could be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

Lightbulbs are not a linear load. Their resistance goes up as the
voltage increases. You would need to monitor the voltage and the current
to get anything useful.

Just a nitpick, but technically, the resistance goes up as the
_temperature_
increases. :-)

Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?


That would give you the data for that one bulb. There are
manufacturing variations from lamp to lamp. For instance: HP used a
small lamp in their early audio generators to control the gain. They
had to be hand selected to get the lowest distortion in each generator.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

Existential Angst wrote:

(...)

Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?

From the context of the conversation, I assume that your
goal is to use an incandescent bulb as a voltmeter.

Is that correct, PV?

--Winston

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 09:18:54 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Existential Angst wrote:

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Josepi wrote:

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance
could be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

Lightbulbs are not a linear load. Their resistance goes up as the
voltage increases. You would need to monitor the voltage and the current
to get anything useful.

Just a nitpick, but technically, the resistance goes up as the
_temperature_
increases. :-)

Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?


That would give you the data for that one bulb. There are
manufacturing variations from lamp to lamp. For instance: HP used a
small lamp in their early audio generators to control the gain. They
had to be hand selected to get the lowest distortion in each generator.

Yep. Those were called "barreters". They were in the feedback loop of
a Wein bridge oscillator. As the amplitude of the signal grew, so did
the resistance until the loop gain became exactly 1 and amplitude
stabilized at a steady-state value.

Don Foreman wrote:

On Sat, 12 Mar 2011 09:18:54 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:


Existential Angst wrote:

"Rich Grise" wrote in message
...
Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Josepi wrote:

Yes, having two light bulbs with one as a standard could help your
estimation of brilliance providing you knew the "standard" one was being
powered by exactly the rated voltage. Since power is proportional to the
square of the applied voltage the power and therefore the brilliance
could be somewhat off for the purposes of good measurement.

Lightbulbs are not a linear load. Their resistance goes up as the
voltage increases. You would need to monitor the voltage and the current
to get anything useful.

Just a nitpick, but technically, the resistance goes up as the
_temperature_
increases. :-)

Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?


That would give you the data for that one bulb. There are
manufacturing variations from lamp to lamp. For instance: HP used a
small lamp in their early audio generators to control the gain. They
had to be hand selected to get the lowest distortion in each generator.

Yep. Those were called "barreters". They were in the feedback loop of
a Wein bridge oscillator. As the amplitude of the signal grew, so did
the resistance until the loop gain became exactly 1 and amplitude
stabilized at a steady-state value.


I have a TS-382F I am rebuilding. It is a military version of the
early HP 200 series, with the addition of a frequency meter. All the
'bathtub' capacitors are leaky, and a few 2W 5% resistors are burnt.
All metal tubes in the 'Wein bridge' and output amp.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

"Winston" wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:

(...)

Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V
vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?

From the context of the conversation, I assume that your
goal is to use an incandescent bulb as a voltmeter.

Is that correct, PV?

Close.... as a wattmeter.....
I monitor the voltage, and based on the applied voltage, impute power. But
I need to know resistance as a function of V, which a V vs I curve would
yield.

In the other thread I started specifically on this question, it seems the
data/links others provided will provide this.

Iow, if you have a 60 W bulb glowing away at 120 V (its rated voltage), you
know it's drawing 60 W.
But what if the voltage is 100? or 75? or 150?
--
EA, the result of being chronically PV'd




--Winston

On 03/12/2011 10:06 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:

(...)

Does anyone know what this curve looks like? I would actually like a V
vs.
I curve for a typical incandescant.
Googled some, wiki has an inneresting table on incandescant efficiency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescent_light_bulb

but I haven't found an actual V vs I graph. I spose I could just take a
bulb and jot down some numbers, using a variac, eh?

Presumably a similar curve would arise from both AC and DC?

From the context of the conversation, I assume that your
goal is to use an incandescent bulb as a voltmeter.

Is that correct, PV?

Close.... as a wattmeter.....
I monitor the voltage, and based on the applied voltage, impute power. But
I need to know resistance as a function of V, which a V vs I curve would
yield.

In the other thread I started specifically on this question, it seems the
data/links others provided will provide this.

Iow, if you have a 60 W bulb glowing away at 120 V (its rated voltage), you
know it's drawing 60 W.
But what if the voltage is 100? or 75? or 150?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tungsten+filament+resistance

The second hit is a document with a diagram showing typical current vs.
voltage for input voltages from 50% to 150% of normal. It shows that at
50% voltage the lamp draws 69% of normal current, so the power would be
34.5%, rather than the 25% you would get for a fixed resistance. For
V=150% the current is 125%, yielding 187.5% of the nominal power.


http://www.intl-lighttech.com/applic...ment-lamps.pdf

--
Bob Nichols AT comcast.net I am "RNichols42"

Don Foreman wrote:
That would give you the data for that one bulb. There are
manufacturing variations from lamp to lamp. For instance: HP used a
small lamp in their early audio generators to control the gain. They
had to be hand selected to get the lowest distortion in each generator.

Yep. Those were called "barreters". They were in the feedback loop of
a Wein bridge oscillator. As the amplitude of the signal grew, so did
the resistance until the loop gain became exactly 1 and amplitude
stabilized at a steady-state value.

Yep even Heath Kit used the same thing. I built a number of
them for the Coyne Radio and TV school in 1950 after I
graduated there I worked for the school for about 6 months.
Of course the 7 1/2 W bulbs were just the ordinary "nite
light" bulbs but they worked just fine.
Havent heard (or read) that term "Wein Bridge" for a very
LOOOOOOOONG time. :-)
...lew...

Just to complicate things,
read the voltage on the bulb. The long life units are sometimes rated at 130
volts and the cheap one at 115 volts and 117 volts. Some may be 110 volts
depending where they are manufactured. The Chinese think we are all short
and short on voltage too....LOL

I am not sure I would go by the rating of the bulb unless 10% error is a
good tolerence.

Are we pushing your accuracy requirements to new heights or what?....LOL
------------------

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Close.... as a wattmeter.....
I monitor the voltage, and based on the applied voltage, impute power. But
I need to know resistance as a function of V, which a V vs I curve would
yield.

In the other thread I started specifically on this question, it seems the
data/links others provided will provide this.

Iow, if you have a 60 W bulb glowing away at 120 V (its rated voltage), you
know it's drawing 60 W.
But what if the voltage is 100? or 75? or 150?
--
EA, the result of being chronically PV'd




--Winston

Nice one!!

According to the second link the current curve is not perfectly linear but
very close by the few specimens I checked.
Buggers used a log scale one direction though. GRRRRRR...

Anybody scratch their LCD screen with a metal ruler?
----------------------

"Robert Nichols" wrote in message ...
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tungsten+filament+resistance

The second hit is a document with a diagram showing typical current vs.
voltage for input voltages from 50% to 150% of normal. It shows that at
50% voltage the lamp draws 69% of normal current, so the power would be
34.5%, rather than the 25% you would get for a fixed resistance. For
V=150% the current is 125%, yielding 187.5% of the nominal power.


http://www.intl-lighttech.com/applic...ment-lamps.pdf

Existential Angst wrote:
wrote in message
...

(...)

From the context of the conversation, I assume that your
goal is to use an incandescent bulb as a voltmeter.

Is that correct, PV?

Close.... as a wattmeter.....
I monitor the voltage, and based on the applied voltage, impute power. But
I need to know resistance as a function of V, which a V vs I curve would
yield.

Why not use a nice, linear Hall Effect current sensor?

ACS758ECB-200B-PSS-T

This one acts like a 10 milliohm sense resistor but offers only 100
micro ohms of actual resistance to your circuit.

-Requires only a small DC power supply and a couple
reference resistors to sense up to +-200 A with your
multimeter.

http://www.allegromicro.com/en/Produ...rentsensor.asp

I've used these and they work a treat.

--Winston

Josepi wrote:

Just to complicate things,
read the voltage on the bulb. The long life units are sometimes rated at 130
volts and the cheap one at 115 volts and 117 volts. Some may be 110 volts
depending where they are manufactured. The Chinese think we are all short
and short on voltage too....LOL


I've seen plenty of Chinese bulbs marked for 130 volts.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

Firstly
There are no light bulbs made in N.America.

Secondly
They are commonly used for rural applications and exit sign where voltage
surges are common and long life is desired, respectively.

----------------------

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
I've seen plenty of Chinese bulbs marked for 130 volts.

---------------
Josepi wrote:
Just to complicate things,
read the voltage on the bulb. The long life units are sometimes rated at 130
volts and the cheap one at 115 volts and 117 volts. Some may be 110 volts
depending where they are manufactured. The Chinese think we are all short
and short on voltage too....LOL




..