I thought you guys would love this:

My R2E4 has a Ruthman flood pump. It happens to be identical
mechanically and electrically to their currently-offered 1/10th HP "tank
unit" coolant pump.

So... My start cap failed, and the nomenclature was obliterated from
decades of coolant seepage into the capacitor shell. Not knowing for
sure if it was a PSC motor or a capacitor-start (and NOT wanting to
disassemble the TENV motor just yet to find out), I emailed Ruthman Pump
(www.gusher.com), gave them all the detail, and waited for a reply.

They were prompt. However, the response was, "We don't make motors,
Baldor does. You'll have to call them."

Huh?? Ok... so they have no spare parts for the motors. But they also
have NO repair parts listings for any motor they sell. No caps. No
bearings, no nothing. They don't even know how to _ask_ Baldor for them.
You have to go to Baldor yourself for advice.

I did. It took Baldor about 10 minutes to find the old obsolete spec
number, cross it to a new one, and give me the capacitor specifications.
And tell me it's a start cap. And tell me the acceptable range of values
for it.

We're falling into a hole, folks. Technical support has gotten to be a
joke. "Sorry, you'll have to send it in for a replacement" is getting to
be the norm, even for durable goods.

I recently had a _very_ costly (couple $thou) washdown-environment scale
fail out in our mixing room. It was about a month old. Ohaus said we'd
have to send it in for repair, and there was at least a three month
backlog for repairs. Wha???? Oh... it seems Ohaus only has THREE
technicians for the entire US, not including their road warriors who
service things like DOT truck scales, etc.


"On Tenagra, when the walls fell..."

LLoyd

It is worse than you think.

Baldor was recently acquired by ABB.

Watch corporate carnage, right-sizing, management concept changeovers,
dumping old documentation, etc obliterate the decades long knowledge
base of Baldor.

i


On 2010-12-27, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
I thought you guys would love this:

My R2E4 has a Ruthman flood pump. It happens to be identical
mechanically and electrically to their currently-offered 1/10th HP "tank
unit" coolant pump.

So... My start cap failed, and the nomenclature was obliterated from
decades of coolant seepage into the capacitor shell. Not knowing for
sure if it was a PSC motor or a capacitor-start (and NOT wanting to
disassemble the TENV motor just yet to find out), I emailed Ruthman Pump
(www.gusher.com), gave them all the detail, and waited for a reply.

They were prompt. However, the response was, "We don't make motors,
Baldor does. You'll have to call them."

Huh?? Ok... so they have no spare parts for the motors. But they also
have NO repair parts listings for any motor they sell. No caps. No
bearings, no nothing. They don't even know how to _ask_ Baldor for them.
You have to go to Baldor yourself for advice.

I did. It took Baldor about 10 minutes to find the old obsolete spec
number, cross it to a new one, and give me the capacitor specifications.
And tell me it's a start cap. And tell me the acceptable range of values
for it.

We're falling into a hole, folks. Technical support has gotten to be a
joke. "Sorry, you'll have to send it in for a replacement" is getting to
be the norm, even for durable goods.

I recently had a _very_ costly (couple $thou) washdown-environment scale
fail out in our mixing room. It was about a month old. Ohaus said we'd
have to send it in for repair, and there was at least a three month
backlog for repairs. Wha???? Oh... it seems Ohaus only has THREE
technicians for the entire US, not including their road warriors who
service things like DOT truck scales, etc.


"On Tenagra, when the walls fell..."

LLoyd

On Dec 27, 10:29*am, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
I thought you guys would love this:

My R2E4 has a Ruthman flood pump. *It happens to be identical
mechanically and electrically to their currently-offered 1/10th HP "tank
unit" coolant pump.

So... *My start cap failed, and the nomenclature was obliterated from
decades of coolant seepage into the capacitor shell. *Not knowing for
sure if it was a PSC motor or a capacitor-start (and NOT wanting to
disassemble the TENV motor just yet to find out), I emailed Ruthman Pump
(www.gusher.com), gave them all the detail, and waited for a reply.

They were prompt. *However, the response was, "We don't make motors,
Baldor does. *You'll have to call them."

Huh?? *Ok... so they have no spare parts for the motors. *But they also
have NO repair parts listings for any motor they sell. *No caps. *No
bearings, no nothing. *They don't even know how to _ask_ Baldor for them. *
You have to go to Baldor yourself for advice.

I did. *It took Baldor about 10 minutes to find the old obsolete spec
number, cross it to a new one, and give me the capacitor specifications. *
And tell me it's a start cap. *And tell me the acceptable range of values
for it.

We're falling into a hole, folks. *Technical support has gotten to be a
joke. *"Sorry, you'll have to send it in for a replacement" is getting to
be the norm, even for durable goods.

I recently had a _very_ costly (couple $thou) washdown-environment scale
fail out in our mixing room. *It was about a month old. *Ohaus said we'd
have to send it in for repair, and there was at least a three month
backlog for repairs. *Wha???? *Oh... it seems Ohaus only has THREE
technicians for the entire US, not including their road warriors who
service things like DOT truck scales, etc.

"On Tenagra, when the walls fell..."

LLoyd

I had a similar problem trying to fix a commercial Lifefitness
treadmill. After moving to a new house, I had set it up and got an
error message and it would not start. From everything that I could
tell, it was an EEPROM that had lost its programming and it was a
proprietary one from Lifefitness. I called the company to try and get
a replacement chip, but they would only sell me a control board for
$1200 (!?!). I paid only a few hundred for the treadmill and I like
it because it’s a heavy duty beast. I also tried a back alley
approach and contacted Emerson Electric which made the AC motor and
inverter drive, to see if I could get pin-outs for their board, but no
luck. I cannibalized the treadmill and found another used one.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:29:09 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

I thought you guys would love this:

My R2E4 has a Ruthman flood pump. It happens to be identical
mechanically and electrically to their currently-offered 1/10th HP "tank
unit" coolant pump.

So... My start cap failed, and the nomenclature was obliterated from
decades of coolant seepage into the capacitor shell. Not knowing for
sure if it was a PSC motor or a capacitor-start (and NOT wanting to
disassemble the TENV motor just yet to find out), I emailed Ruthman Pump
(www.gusher.com), gave them all the detail, and waited for a reply.

They were prompt. However, the response was, "We don't make motors,
Baldor does. You'll have to call them."

UFR! They don't want a single return customer, do they?

It took Baldor about 10 minutes to find the old obsolete spec
number, cross it to a new one, and give me the capacitor specifications.
And tell me it's a start cap. And tell me the acceptable range of values
for it.

We're falling into a hole, folks. Technical support has gotten to be a
joke. "Sorry, you'll have to send it in for a replacement" is getting to
be the norm, even for durable goods.

Total suckage, that, for the most part. Buuuut, for me, it creates
more paid service work. I've yanked a faulty (brand new) unit out for
return to the store more than once, and been paid to install another
mfgr's unit in its place.


I recently had a _very_ costly (couple $thou) washdown-environment scale
fail out in our mixing room. It was about a month old. Ohaus said we'd
have to send it in for repair, and there was at least a three month
backlog for repairs. Wha???? Oh... it seems Ohaus only has THREE
technicians for the entire US, not including their road warriors who
service things like DOT truck scales, etc.

Did you tell Ohaus what they could do with their scale? Who else
makes that particular size/style?


"On Tenagra, when the walls fell..."

"On Risa, with eyes (and fly) wide open..."

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 10:49:47 -0600, Ignoramus7943
wrote:

It is worse than you think.

Baldor was recently acquired by ABB.

Watch corporate carnage, right-sizing, management concept changeovers,
dumping old documentation, etc obliterate the decades long knowledge
base of Baldor.

Get one of Baldor's specification CDs now, while you still can!
(I should update mine, it's likely a decade old now.)

--
Remember, in an emergency, dial 1911.

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

Did you tell Ohaus what they could do with their scale? Who else
makes that particular size/style?



Mettler Toledo makes one... The same one, in fact. Different paint job,
higher price.

Both companies are now owned by Mettler.

LLoyd

I think you still don't know what that pump motor is, regardless of what
someone
told you.

Small, brushless, fractional HP motors under 1/8 HP generally fall into 2
categories.. PSC or shaded pole.
I would expect that the pump motor is the PSC type, with a capacitor value
of between 2 and 10 uF, so if Baldor recommended something different, it's
likely to be wrong.. after all, they referred to a Run capacitor as a Start
capacitor.

I've found that, in decades of experience, the most reliable way to
determine what the item is, would be with "Eyes On". That means
taking the item apart until you can see everything you need to know about
the item.
Anything other than Eyes On is generally speculation.
In this particular situation, disassembly and Eyes On would have revealed
what type of motor is used.
Relying on some corporate phone voice for valuable info can be very
misleading.. valuable referring to your time, and/or wild-goose-chases with
no results (or bad results).

Shaded pole motors are 2-wire motors, and PSC are 3-wire motors.
The capacitors used for the 2 different types of motors are significantly
different.. and many shaded pole motors don't have capacitors, but PSC
motors always do.

PSC motors are usually enclosed in a case (not necessarily fully enclosed),
as they're usually supplied by a motor manufacturer.
PSC motors are often marked with one or both.. Thermally Protected,
Impedance Protected.

The term motor represents the motor itself (rotor, stator bearings, supports
and case, if used), not any of the additional housing parts added on to use
the motor as a working machine.
The usage of 2 or 3-wire descriptions refer to the actual motor
windings/stator connections, not the number of wires entering any housing
parts which aren't the actual motor (since the PSC motor capacitor can be
located remotely).
Externally, both of these types of motors will usually have only 2 wires for
power (although only the PSC type usually have an additional ground wire
attached to the frame/case of the motor).

Neither of these types of motors utilize more than one capacitor.. and
neither of these types of motors utilize a Start capacitor, however the
motors will fail to run without them, so the issue becomes clouded by the
(mis)interpretation of the fault.. the motor doesn't start, whereas, it also
doesn't run.
The capacitor used with a PSC motor is generally referred to as a Run
capacitor in most motor texts.
Many folks wouldn't know one from the other, and use the terms incorrectly,
which shouldn't be surprising as most of 'em have never seen the insides of
a motor.

The capacitor values (capacitance in uF, microfarad) used with shaded pole
motors are typically quite small, often being less than 1 uF.
The capacitor values used with PSC motors are always greater than 1 uF, and
may be as large as 25 uF, but generally less (2 uF to 10 uF are common).

There are so many different applications where PSC motors are used, that the
appearance of the capacitors can be quite different.. but the value of the
capacitor will be larger than 1 uF.
The capacitor's value, used with a PSC motor, will effect the motor's speed
and temperature, time to reach full speed and to a smaller degree, torque.

The capacitor's rated working voltage will be greater than the applied
voltage, and they are always rated for AC use, which means that the
terminals are not polarized for minus or plus polarities.

There are other factors regarding motor capacitors for larger motors, which
can usually be found in a decent motor book.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
I thought you guys would love this:

My R2E4 has a Ruthman flood pump. It happens to be identical
mechanically and electrically to their currently-offered 1/10th HP "tank
unit" coolant pump.

So... My start cap failed, and the nomenclature was obliterated from
decades of coolant seepage into the capacitor shell. Not knowing for
sure if it was a PSC motor or a capacitor-start (and NOT wanting to
disassemble the TENV motor just yet to find out), I emailed Ruthman Pump
(www.gusher.com), gave them all the detail, and waited for a reply.

They were prompt. However, the response was, "We don't make motors,
Baldor does. You'll have to call them."

Huh?? Ok... so they have no spare parts for the motors. But they also
have NO repair parts listings for any motor they sell. No caps. No
bearings, no nothing. They don't even know how to _ask_ Baldor for them.
You have to go to Baldor yourself for advice.

I did. It took Baldor about 10 minutes to find the old obsolete spec
number, cross it to a new one, and give me the capacitor specifications.
And tell me it's a start cap. And tell me the acceptable range of values
for it.

We're falling into a hole, folks. Technical support has gotten to be a
joke. "Sorry, you'll have to send it in for a replacement" is getting to
be the norm, even for durable goods.

I recently had a _very_ costly (couple $thou) washdown-environment scale
fail out in our mixing room. It was about a month old. Ohaus said we'd
have to send it in for repair, and there was at least a three month
backlog for repairs. Wha???? Oh... it seems Ohaus only has THREE
technicians for the entire US, not including their road warriors who
service things like DOT truck scales, etc.


"On Tenagra, when the walls fell..."

LLoyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

here are other factors regarding motor capacitors for larger motors,
which can usually be found in a decent motor book.


Bill, Thanks for the useful lesson on motor types and capacitors.
That's really a very interesting bit of technical "engineer's stuff",
thanks. But I ended up putting the recommended cap on it, anyway!

I looked up the modern number, and it is a capacitor-start
(centrifugally-switched start winding) motor. There's just nothing
external that gives that away, and it's so quiet you have to put your ear
on the motor to hear the sounds it makes.

I listened very carefully to mine while I applied power with the new cap
installed. It goes "MMMMmmmmm---SNICK!"(very quietly) then runs smoothly
without any strong sense of "hum" or other over-current symptoms. When
you remove power, it _almost_ comes to a stop, then you can hear (with
your ear up to the housing) a gentle click in the last couple of hundred
RPMs before it stops.

It also starts like a scalded jack rabbit, with strong torque, and not
like a shaded pole snail that lazy-s itself up to speed. You can feel
the starting torque, even on this (fairly large form-factor) 1/10th HP
job (about the size of a modern-style 1/2HP cap-start motor).

Ruthman confirmed it's the same motor they've been using since the 1980s.
Baldor confirmed that, too, and confirmed that the "Spec" number of the
new actually superceded the old. They also gave me the value of the
capacitor. I had one on the shelf.

FWIW, a 88-108uF electrolytic cap at 125V is a LOT larger than a 5-or-so-
uF electrolytic of the same voltage rating. But the smaller cap would
likely be an oil-filled (thus bigger, puf for puf), higher voltage
rating, and obviously of a different form-factor and construction
(hermetic can vs a phenolic pressure-ventilated case). This motor's
original cap is in a phenolic case. It is definitely an electrolytic
with a snap-in retainer ring, and a rubber degassing valve; oh -- and the
replacement is the identical form factor to the old one.

I just didn't want to take this motor apart. It's gummy and sticky
wherever there's a gasket, and I know I'd be in for a full-up re-
gasketing job (at the least) if I opened it. All I wanted to do today
was get it back up and running so I could make some parts. It took me
fifteen minutes with oven cleaner just to get the area where the
capacitor shell seats clean enough to put a new gasket on it. All the
rubber parts (including the leads coming out the capacitor lead hole) are
showing degradation from 25 years' exposure to peanut oil (gummy, soft,
swollen). If I opened it, I'd likely end up having to replace it right
then and there. There's such a thing as a patient too delicate for
surgery.

I'll probably have to replace that motor some day. But it might be a
while if it's left undisturbed mechanically. It makes barely a _whisper_
of bearing noise or hum while it's running, and with that small an output
power, it shouldn't.

No, Bill -- Sorry. I _do_ know what type of motor it is now (by running
it rather than disassembling it) and I know what capacitor it should use.

Oh yeah... and I already knew all that "engineer's stuff".


LLoyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

That means
taking the item apart until you can see everything you need to know
about
the item.
Anything other than Eyes On is generally speculation.

BTW, Bill... I want to STRONGLY disagree with your philosophy of "tear it
down, NOW!".

I (and any competent mechanic, repairman, engineer... whatever) use all
of my senses. I listen, I look, I feel, I even taste and smell
mechanical and electrical things. And you can learn a lot from that,
without ripping into the guts of every malfunctioning device you
encounter.

I'm not a bit afraid of tearing into something if I think it needs it.
But the conservative approach is to leave that for last, and do some
astute trouble-shooting first.

LLoyd

It shouldn't be a problem for you to substitute a different motor case-type
in the future if the existing motor fails.

You hadn't mentioned the physical size, or a click, but then you probably
hadn't noticed the click in the past.

I was visualizing the small centrifugal coolant pumps, which definitely
aren't capacitor start split-phase motors, but you had actually seen it.

Since you didn't bother to mention capacitor value selection for capacitor
start split-phase motors, I will.
The general rule-of-thumb is to choose a Start capacitor value that is equal
to about 100uF per HP.
The tolerance of capacitance values for Start capacitors can vary by as much
as 20% from the marked value.
The values of Run capacitors for capacitor Start, capacitor Run split phase
motors (air compressor rated duty) are typically low values under 100uF,
generally less than 50uF.

So as I'd surmised earlier, your post was only to whine about lack of
customer support instead of sharing something useful about motor repair.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

No, Bill -- Sorry. I _do_ know what type of motor it is now (by running
it rather than disassembling it) and I know what capacitor it should use.

Oh yeah... and I already knew all that "engineer's stuff".


LLoyd

You're discussing fixing something, which is not a repair.

So what did you sense about the condition of the motor's centrifugal start
switch?

In your recent scenario, the centrifugal switch could've failed (same
symptom), and you would most likely have replaced the capacitor.
Hmmm.. no worky.

As a competent (something, you didn't specify), you would know how to test
the rated current capacity of a centrifugal switch without opening a motor
case, as an essential troubleshooting step.

So now you have an old motor with a different (new/used) capacitor
installed, and no idea of the physical condition of the centrifugal switch,
other than it still operates.

I favor repairing my stuff, so my equipment isn't always in need of proper
servicing.

By avoiding just fixing stuff well enough to finish a task, I'm confident
that my equipment will work properly when I want to use it.

I've worked in manufacturing environments where the mentality is completely
the opposite.. like yours.
Production machines frequently breaking down because there's not enough time
to do the needed repairs the right way, but there's always enough time to
"fix it" again.

If you had been willing to get your hands dirty, you may have been able to
determine the motor type, select a proper new capacitor, and burnish the
centrifugal start switch contacts (new bearings optional, or proper
lubrication for sleeve type) in maybe 2 hours (including gaskets/sealant for
the motor case).. so what if it actually took you 3 hours.
Then you would know that the motor had been repaired as well as it could be,
short of a new replacement motor.
With Eyes On, you can determine the present state of what you have, and what
the possible failures could be.

But instead, it seems you'd rather consider the motor fixed.. until it fails
to pump coolant during a future machining operation, then contemplate the
options again.

You can convince yourself that there will be a better time, other than now,
to fix the motor again.

Induction motors are some of the most simple of machines, with nothing
mystical or magical about their operation.

Most of the RCMers have numerous machines that they enjoy using, and proper
motor operation is vital to the machines' operation.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

That means
taking the item apart until you can see everything you need to know
about
the item.
Anything other than Eyes On is generally speculation.

BTW, Bill... I want to STRONGLY disagree with your philosophy of "tear it
down, NOW!".

I (and any competent mechanic, repairman, engineer... whatever) use all
of my senses. I listen, I look, I feel, I even taste and smell
mechanical and electrical things. And you can learn a lot from that,
without ripping into the guts of every malfunctioning device you
encounter.

I'm not a bit afraid of tearing into something if I think it needs it.
But the conservative approach is to leave that for last, and do some
astute trouble-shooting first.

LLoyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

So as I'd surmised earlier, your post was only to whine about lack of
customer support instead of sharing something useful about motor
repair.



Not Whining, Bill, Reporting -- so some other poor sucker won't get
trappped by doing business with them.

The motor is 1/10th HP. The recommended cap is 88-108uF. --Somewhat
outsized "thumb", no?

LLoyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

If you had been willing to get your hands dirty, you may have been
able to determine the motor type, select a proper new capacitor, and
burnish the centrifugal start switch contacts (new bearings optional,
or proper lubrication for sleeve type) in maybe 2 hours (including
gaskets/sealant for the motor case).. so what if it actually took you
3 hours.


If you had taken the time to get your brain dirty for a second, you'd
have noted that I said the motor was in too delicate condition to
consider disassembling it unless I absolutely had to. This wasn't a
matter of unwillingness to do work, it was a considered, competent
decision to avoid doing damage.

A "proper" repair honors not only the future demands on the device, but
also its present condition. I can order a spare motor and have it in
stock for when/if this one fails. If, instead, I had caused damage by
disassembling a motor in fragile condition, I would have had to wait for
the correct motor to be shipped. (or worse, built, then shipped).

And Bill, you confused me a little... did you mean to say that you'd
install used repair parts? You said something about the new capacitor
being of "unknown" condition... Perhaps you would put a used cap in a
motor. I keep a small assortment of used caps in my kitbox for trouble-
shooting. But for only $4.00 to replace my shelf stock, I'll go with new
on a repair, thanks.

LLoyd

A "delicate" motor sounds as if you were afraid of it. Maybe it's just a
case of you lacking any confidence to disassemble it without destroying it.
Maybe you're one of those torch, hammer and pliers sort of competent types.

Later you suggest that you may have needed to wait to have a (special) motor
built.
Your drama is almost as good as Karl's. A motor that can't possibly be
replaced with a different motor. The absolute horror of it all!

All you really need to pump coolant is something that goes round 'n round..
much like your recent posts.

It seems as though you're hellbent on offending me, although if that's the
case, you've failed miserably.

Get your order in early.. you wouldn't want to have to scrap the mill
because that motor is NLA.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

If you had been willing to get your hands dirty, you may have been
able to determine the motor type, select a proper new capacitor, and
burnish the centrifugal start switch contacts (new bearings optional,
or proper lubrication for sleeve type) in maybe 2 hours (including
gaskets/sealant for the motor case).. so what if it actually took you
3 hours.


If you had taken the time to get your brain dirty for a second, you'd
have noted that I said the motor was in too delicate condition to
consider disassembling it unless I absolutely had to. This wasn't a
matter of unwillingness to do work, it was a considered, competent
decision to avoid doing damage.

A "proper" repair honors not only the future demands on the device, but
also its present condition. I can order a spare motor and have it in
stock for when/if this one fails. If, instead, I had caused damage by
disassembling a motor in fragile condition, I would have had to wait for
the correct motor to be shipped. (or worse, built, then shipped).

And Bill, you confused me a little... did you mean to say that you'd
install used repair parts? You said something about the new capacitor
being of "unknown" condition... Perhaps you would put a used cap in a
motor. I keep a small assortment of used caps in my kitbox for trouble-
shooting. But for only $4.00 to replace my shelf stock, I'll go with new
on a repair, thanks.

LLoyd

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:


A "delicate" motor sounds as if you were afraid of it. Maybe it's just
a case of you lacking any confidence to disassemble it without
destroying it. Maybe you're one of those torch, hammer and pliers sort
of competent types.


Nah... I've rescued a lot of motors of all types, many that were declared
"unrepairable" under the new philosophy of "throw it out and buy new".

I'm just afraid of hacks whose first step is always to start taking
things apart before they understand the impact of what they're doing.

You started the crap. You first sought to offend with your lengthy,
condescending, tech-less diatribe on how PSC motors differ from capacitor
start types.

While in the process, you showed what a ham-handed "service tech" you
really are; a real "cable guy" type who ends up frying the incoming
service while changing a light bulb.

LLoyd

Lloyd, these pumps are easily replaceable, so I would not worry too
much about taking one apart. If you break it, you are out $100, which
is kind of bad, but not like breaking a ball screw or some other hard
to replace part.

It may be, like in my case, crud clogging it.

Often times throwing stuff out and replacing is wiser than spending
weeks trying to fix it.

i

On 2010-12-28, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:


A "delicate" motor sounds as if you were afraid of it. Maybe it's just
a case of you lacking any confidence to disassemble it without
destroying it. Maybe you're one of those torch, hammer and pliers sort
of competent types.


Nah... I've rescued a lot of motors of all types, many that were declared
"unrepairable" under the new philosophy of "throw it out and buy new".

I'm just afraid of hacks whose first step is always to start taking
things apart before they understand the impact of what they're doing.

You started the crap. You first sought to offend with your lengthy,
condescending, tech-less diatribe on how PSC motors differ from capacitor
start types.

While in the process, you showed what a ham-handed "service tech" you
really are; a real "cable guy" type who ends up frying the incoming
service while changing a light bulb.

LLoyd

In article ,
"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:


A "delicate" motor sounds as if you were afraid of it. Maybe it's just
a case of you lacking any confidence to disassemble it without
destroying it. Maybe you're one of those torch, hammer and pliers sort
of competent types.


Nah... I've rescued a lot of motors of all types, many that were declared
"unrepairable" under the new philosophy of "throw it out and buy new".

I'm just afraid of hacks whose first step is always to start taking
things apart before they understand the impact of what they're doing.

You started the crap. You first sought to offend with your lengthy,
condescending, tech-less diatribe on how PSC motors differ from capacitor
start types.

While in the process, you showed what a ham-handed "service tech" you
really are; a real "cable guy" type who ends up frying the incoming
service while changing a light bulb.

LLoyd

Do Not Feed The Troll.

Ignoramus24647 fired this volley in
:

Lloyd, these pumps are easily replaceable, so I would not worry too
much about taking one apart. If you break it, you are out $100, which
is kind of bad, but not like breaking a ball screw or some other hard
to replace part.

Ig... This isn't about "fix or replace". It's about WB's high-handed way
of assuming everyone is stupid except for him, and it's about doing
_appropriate_ repairs instead of doing frivolous ones just to prove how
"crafty" you are.

I will get a spare motor in, and have it waiting. It's about a 15-minute
job to replace the motor. When I total up both service episodes, it will
have been half the down time of what it would have been if I did what WB
recommended.

WB gave no credit for anybody but him knowing anything about motors. He
claimed I was wrong before he asked even one question -- just started
lecturing me on how wrong I was. He claimed Baldor was wrong, even
though they had a specific part number for that specific motor number.
He stated that they "called a run cap a start cap" (so they HAD to be
wrong), when he didn't have a _clue_ what he was talking about, later
admitted he didn't have enough information for the opinions he offered,
and then _continued_ his high-handed approach.

And, he recommended a procedure that would have guaranteed a day down,
and maybe two if things went south, when some simple diagnostic work and
a little "Ears-On" time put it right in a couple of hours (including
phone time identifying the right part).

LLoyd

On 2010-12-28, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus24647 fired this volley in
:

Lloyd, these pumps are easily replaceable, so I would not worry too
much about taking one apart. If you break it, you are out $100, which
is kind of bad, but not like breaking a ball screw or some other hard
to replace part.

Ig... This isn't about "fix or replace". It's about WB's high-handed way
of assuming everyone is stupid except for him, and it's about doing
_appropriate_ repairs instead of doing frivolous ones just to prove how
"crafty" you are.

I agree that he is a cranky ass.

Sometimes, relatively rarely, he has something useful to say about
machinery, though.

I will get a spare motor in, and have it waiting. It's about a 15-minute
job to replace the motor. When I total up both service episodes, it will
have been half the down time of what it would have been if I did what WB
recommended.

Yep.

WB gave no credit for anybody but him knowing anything about motors. He
claimed I was wrong before he asked even one question -- just started
lecturing me on how wrong I was. He claimed Baldor was wrong, even
though they had a specific part number for that specific motor number.
He stated that they "called a run cap a start cap" (so they HAD to be
wrong), when he didn't have a _clue_ what he was talking about, later
admitted he didn't have enough information for the opinions he offered,
and then _continued_ his high-handed approach.

For Your Information, my own pump is 1/10 HP, if I recall correctly,
and it has a starting capacitor.

And, he recommended a procedure that would have guaranteed a day down,
and maybe two if things went south, when some simple diagnostic work and
a little "Ears-On" time put it right in a couple of hours (including
phone time identifying the right part).

Yep, there are more important battles.

I know people who waste days trying to repair a $4.50 item, or trying
to make something that can be easily bought, and that, to me, is a
wrong approach.


i

Ignoramus24647 fired this volley in
:

For Your Information, my own pump is 1/10 HP, if I recall correctly,
and it has a starting capacitor.

Yeah, and when I get back to the office tomorrow, I'll give you the
correct, new Baldor Spec number on that motor, if you want it.

Yours and my mill had the same Ruthman Gusher pump originally.

LLoyd

On 2010-12-28, Lloyd E. Sponenburgh lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:
Ignoramus24647 fired this volley in
:

For Your Information, my own pump is 1/10 HP, if I recall correctly,
and it has a starting capacitor.

Yeah, and when I get back to the office tomorrow, I'll give you the
correct, new Baldor Spec number on that motor, if you want it.

I want it.

Yours and my mill had the same Ruthman Gusher pump originally.


Great, did not know (and I am not totally sure of this yet).

i

I also want to say that I actually like Wild Bill, he is like an
unruly child in many ways, but he does have useful things to say.

i

Ignoramus24647 fired this volley in
:

I also want to say that I actually like Wild Bill, he is like an
unruly child in many ways, but he does have useful things to say.


FWIW, he seems to have some worthwhile knowlege, but when he
automatically assumes that nobody else does, he makes himself out to be
the sort of boor who would not be welcome in our shop.

In our business, it's understood that everybody down to the stock clerks
and floor sweepers have something they're better at than anybody else,
and often enough they know stuff outside their titles.


LLoyd

On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 18:46:35 -0600, "Lloyd E. Sponenburgh"
lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote:

"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:

That means
taking the item apart until you can see everything you need to know
about
the item.
Anything other than Eyes On is generally speculation.

BTW, Bill... I want to STRONGLY disagree with your philosophy of "tear it
down, NOW!".

I (and any competent mechanic, repairman, engineer... whatever) use all
of my senses. I listen, I look, I feel, I even taste and smell
mechanical and electrical things. And you can learn a lot from that,
without ripping into the guts of every malfunctioning device you
encounter.

I'm not a bit afraid of tearing into something if I think it needs it.
But the conservative approach is to leave that for last, and do some
astute trouble-shooting first.

I agree wholeheartedly, Lloyd. And methinks WildBill is trolling.

--
Make the best use of what is in your power,
and take the rest as it happens.
-- Epictetus

Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I agree wholeheartedly, Lloyd. And methinks WildBill is trolling.

He got a bite. I'd fire someone just for having his opinions, even if he
didn't act on them. (you can do that in Florida, it's an "at will
employment" state)

LLoyd

Being fired would look very bad on my permanent record.

That is, if - you were in a position to fire anyone, but it seems you're
not.. so it's only hot air, not based in reality.

Funny that you should attempt try to point out a troll.. when it was you
that wrote the sad story wrt a motor that wouldn't run, without a mention
that you had "fixed" it.

Someone may have gained some knowledge from reading my post, and it doesn't
bother me in the least that you didn't.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Larry Jaques fired this volley in
:

I agree wholeheartedly, Lloyd. And methinks WildBill is trolling.

He got a bite. I'd fire someone just for having his opinions, even if he
didn't act on them. (you can do that in Florida, it's an "at will
employment" state)

LLoyd

My intention was to add some actual information for Anyone, regarding how to
determine what type of motor they might have.

Otherwise it would have just been another "Life's Not Fair", my motor broke
sad story.

I'm not so old that I can no longer learn anything, which is why I continue
to read RCM.. and I suspect that others read RCM for the same reason.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
Ignoramus24647 fired this volley in
:

I also want to say that I actually like Wild Bill, he is like an
unruly child in many ways, but he does have useful things to say.


FWIW, he seems to have some worthwhile knowlege, but when he
automatically assumes that nobody else does, he makes himself out to be
the sort of boor who would not be welcome in our shop.

In our business, it's understood that everybody down to the stock clerks
and floor sweepers have something they're better at than anybody else,
and often enough they know stuff outside their titles.


LLoyd

Your conclusions are laughable.

All that's been shown here, is that I'm thorough about my repairs, and you
prefer not to be.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...

Ig... This isn't about "fix or replace". It's about WB's high-handed way
of assuming everyone is stupid except for him, and it's about doing
_appropriate_ repairs instead of doing frivolous ones just to prove how
"crafty" you are.

I will get a spare motor in, and have it waiting. It's about a 15-minute
job to replace the motor. When I total up both service episodes, it will
have been half the down time of what it would have been if I did what WB
recommended.

WB gave no credit for anybody but him knowing anything about motors. He
claimed I was wrong before he asked even one question -- just started
lecturing me on how wrong I was. He claimed Baldor was wrong, even
though they had a specific part number for that specific motor number.
He stated that they "called a run cap a start cap" (so they HAD to be
wrong), when he didn't have a _clue_ what he was talking about, later
admitted he didn't have enough information for the opinions he offered,
and then _continued_ his high-handed approach.

And, he recommended a procedure that would have guaranteed a day down,
and maybe two if things went south, when some simple diagnostic work and
a little "Ears-On" time put it right in a couple of hours (including
phone time identifying the right part).

LLoyd

What a self-righteous hothead.

Hairsprings in meter movements, which I've replaced, are delicate.
A standard size AC motor, or anything in them, is not delicate.

BTW, to point out your ****-poor memory and descriptions.. it wasn't me that
mentioned capacitor start motors, and when I'm discussing motor types I use
the correct terms so that others won't be mislead.

Capacitor-start-split-phase is a motor type, not capacitor start.

--
WB
..........


"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" lloydspinsidemindspring.com wrote in message
. 3.70...
"Wild_Bill" fired this volley in
:


A "delicate" motor sounds as if you were afraid of it. Maybe it's just
a case of you lacking any confidence to disassemble it without
destroying it. Maybe you're one of those torch, hammer and pliers sort
of competent types.


Nah... I've rescued a lot of motors of all types, many that were declared
"unrepairable" under the new philosophy of "throw it out and buy new".

I'm just afraid of hacks whose first step is always to start taking
things apart before they understand the impact of what they're doing.

You started the crap. You first sought to offend with your lengthy,
condescending, tech-less diatribe on how PSC motors differ from capacitor
start types.

While in the process, you showed what a ham-handed "service tech" you
really are; a real "cable guy" type who ends up frying the incoming
service while changing a light bulb.

LLoyd