I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

....and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R

On 08/23/2010 01:08 PM, Joe AutoDrill wrote:
I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

That's way bigger than the motors that I'm used to, BUT:

For the itty bitty (by your standard) motors that I've designed for, the
motor loss is largely due to copper losses from the motor current, with
some iron loss due to speed.

In an induction motor that translates to copper loss in the armature
that comes straight from the amount of current from the VFD, iron loss
in the armature that comes from the frequency of the voltage from the
VFD (let's hope that's always the motor's rated frequency or less),
copper loss in the armature that's some magical complicated relationship
with the amount of slip, and is the reason that I wouldn't take your
money if you wanted to pay me to answer this question (because I don't
know for sure), and iron loss in the rotor that's a direct function of
the absolute slip (i.e. not percent, but the slip in Hz).

My guess is that if you can find a VFD has some sort of a
current-controlled mode, where you can essentially tell it "push this
here direction at this here current and the best torque until you're up
to this here speed", then you could reverse the motor direction all day.
That's because (a) your armature copper losses will be controlled by
the armature current, (b) your armature iron losses will be less than
what they'd be at full speed, and (c) the slip (and hence the rotor iron
and copper losses) will be controlled by the VFD to give you the best
torque for the current.

What I _don't_ know is if you can get such a VFD, or what it's called.
I could design one for you, but it'd cost way more than what an off-the
shelf VFD would cost (The second one would be loads cheaper, and
prettier too, but still several times more expensive than a nicely
productized one built by surly Malaysians in a sweat shop. And the
warranty would be absolute crap).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:08:44 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Joe...WEG motors are what OmniTurn uses..and Ive seen them do exactly
what you are doing for years as production lathes.

Just be sure to use as large a braking resistor as you can...200 watts

We use the old faithful standby PC3/Yaskawa 606PC3/yada yada yada
VFD..its been labled by everyone under the sun.. and is absolutely
bullet proof. The only time Ive every replaced one in the 12 or so
years OmniTurn has been using them..was the result of either lightning
or flood, or forklift damage.

And the lightning only took out the 0-10 volt analog voltage section. Im
currently running my Gorton Mastermill on that same VFD using a pot to
change speed..and have been..on single phase..for almost 10 yrs.

Good ****, Maynard.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 08/23/2010 03:07 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:08:44 -0400, "Joe
wrote:

I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Joe...WEG motors are what OmniTurn uses..and Ive seen them do exactly
what you are doing for years as production lathes.

Just be sure to use as large a braking resistor as you can...200 watts

We use the old faithful standby PC3/Yaskawa 606PC3/yada yada yada
VFD..its been labled by everyone under the sun.. and is absolutely
bullet proof. The only time Ive every replaced one in the 12 or so
years OmniTurn has been using them..was the result of either lightning
or flood, or forklift damage.

And the lightning only took out the 0-10 volt analog voltage section. Im
currently running my Gorton Mastermill on that same VFD using a pot to
change speed..and have been..on single phase..for almost 10 yrs.

Hey! That's exactly what I was babbling about in theory, only you know
the real part numbers!

Braking resistors, huh? No one wants to shove the braking power
backwards up the electrical line (which is eminently possible in theory,
with lots of practical difficulties). They could call them "green", then.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:47 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 08/23/2010 03:07 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:08:44 -0400, "Joe
wrote:

I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Joe...WEG motors are what OmniTurn uses..and Ive seen them do exactly
what you are doing for years as production lathes.

Just be sure to use as large a braking resistor as you can...200 watts

We use the old faithful standby PC3/Yaskawa 606PC3/yada yada yada
VFD..its been labled by everyone under the sun.. and is absolutely
bullet proof. The only time Ive every replaced one in the 12 or so
years OmniTurn has been using them..was the result of either lightning
or flood, or forklift damage.

And the lightning only took out the 0-10 volt analog voltage section. Im
currently running my Gorton Mastermill on that same VFD using a pot to
change speed..and have been..on single phase..for almost 10 yrs.

Hey! That's exactly what I was babbling about in theory, only you know
the real part numbers!

Actually..in the Real World..Im fairly competent. Here on Usenet, I get
to put on the silly hat, or speak from the dark reaches of my
backbrain..G

Braking resistors, huh? No one wants to shove the braking power
backwards up the electrical line (which is eminently possible in theory,
with lots of practical difficulties). They could call them "green", then.

One really needs to use a braking resistor on most VFDs. Many of the
older ones had a built in one..or simply coasted to a stop. Nearly all
VFDs made in the last 10 yrs have that output. Tubular ceramic resistors
can be had on Ebay for a few bucks and are far far cheaper than the flat
packed heatsinked resistors used on commercial machines. The 200 watt
tube resistor Ive got mine hooked to, cost me $4, shipping included G

http://cgi.ebay.com/HEAP-ASSORTED-HI...-/300457464945

See the long *******s to the right of the pile? Those thingies.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Resistor-power-r...-/150467109756

It really doesnt need to be 200 watts on a home machine. Even 100 watts
will work fine.

All you got to do is take your ohm meter..tweak it the slider to the
proper ohms rating for your vfd..and hook up some wires.

Most..not all...but most VFDs want 90-140 ohms in their resistors..
Check your manual as each brand wants a specific ohm rating.

This is the typical packaging for most VFDs And its probably close
enough to work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Regenerati...-/170531505301

The PC3 as I recall..uses 30 ohms. Id have to check the manual

Or I can sell you one of these...

http://www.omniturn.com/bin/RepairPa...components.htm

They are only $125......G


Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On 08/23/2010 03:48 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:47 -0700, Tim
wrote:

On 08/23/2010 03:07 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:08:44 -0400, "Joe
wrote:

I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Joe...WEG motors are what OmniTurn uses..and Ive seen them do exactly
what you are doing for years as production lathes.

Just be sure to use as large a braking resistor as you can...200 watts

We use the old faithful standby PC3/Yaskawa 606PC3/yada yada yada
VFD..its been labled by everyone under the sun.. and is absolutely
bullet proof. The only time Ive every replaced one in the 12 or so
years OmniTurn has been using them..was the result of either lightning
or flood, or forklift damage.

And the lightning only took out the 0-10 volt analog voltage section. Im
currently running my Gorton Mastermill on that same VFD using a pot to
change speed..and have been..on single phase..for almost 10 yrs.

Hey! That's exactly what I was babbling about in theory, only you know
the real part numbers!

Actually..in the Real World..Im fairly competent. Here on Usenet, I get
to put on the silly hat, or speak from the dark reaches of my
backbrain..G

Braking resistors, huh? No one wants to shove the braking power
backwards up the electrical line (which is eminently possible in theory,
with lots of practical difficulties). They could call them "green", then.

One really needs to use a braking resistor on most VFDs. Many of the
older ones had a built in one..or simply coasted to a stop. Nearly all
VFDs made in the last 10 yrs have that output.

The need for a braking _something_ comes from simple physics: if you
want to slow that there motor down you gotta remove the kinetic energy
from the motor and whatever it's attached to, and that kinetic energy
has to go somewhere.

So you either shove it into a resistor, you induce some _really_
inefficient operation in the motor, or you shove it up the power
company's ass-embly.

Shoving it into a resistor is easy, 'cause the VFD will have a 'raw
power' rail in it somewhere, which would go over voltage without putting
the energy somewhere, and the easy place to put that energy is into a
braking resistor.

Making the motor burn it up is, in general, just plain stupid. You'd
have to do some crazy thing (like putting a DC current into the motor)
that'd put your power somewhere, and you'd have to do it in a way that
wouldn't leave you with a mile-long line of ****ed-off customers,
banging on your door with burnt-out motors. For some specific, oddball
situations it'd make sense, but it's not something you'd ever want in a
general-purpose product.

Sending power up the electrical line _isn't_ easy, or obvious -- in
fact, I earned some money in '09 consulting with a company building
solar panel inverters on means and methods to do it right, and to make
sure that what they were doing would work over the widest range of
situations. And it turns out (basic physics again) that you can never
fully reliably shove that power back onto the line without being able to
count on the properties of the line for your own system's stability. Oh
joy.

Tubular ceramic resistors
can be had on Ebay for a few bucks and are far far cheaper than the flat
packed heatsinked resistors used on commercial machines. The 200 watt
tube resistor Ive got mine hooked to, cost me $4, shipping includedG

http://cgi.ebay.com/HEAP-ASSORTED-HI...-/300457464945

See the long *******s to the right of the pile? Those thingies.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Resistor-power-r...-/150467109756

It really doesnt need to be 200 watts on a home machine. Even 100 watts
will work fine.

All you got to do is take your ohm meter..tweak it the slider to the
proper ohms rating for your vfd..and hook up some wires.

Most..not all...but most VFDs want 90-140 ohms in their resistors..
Check your manual as each brand wants a specific ohm rating.

This is the typical packaging for most VFDs And its probably close
enough to work.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Regenerati...-/170531505301

The PC3 as I recall..uses 30 ohms. Id have to check the manual

Or I can sell you one of these...

http://www.omniturn.com/bin/RepairPa...components.htm

They are only $125......G

Or you could use a bucket of salt water and some carbon electrodes -- in
theory :-).

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

Gunner Asch wrote:
...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Regenerati...-/170531505301
....

Oh, that's good one: "... Regenerative Braking Resistor ...". I guess
"regenerative" is a new buzz word that sounds good (& green), that
people will be using when neither they nor their readers know what it means.

Sigh,
Bob

Hey - does that mean that I can say that the brakes on my car are
regenerative?

Tim Wescott wrote:
On 08/23/2010 03:48 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:47 -0700, Tim
wrote:

On 08/23/2010 03:07 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:08:44 -0400, "Joe
wrote:

I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will
reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the
past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned
phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions...
Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or
information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant
reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC
motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and
spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this
particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Joe...WEG motors are what OmniTurn uses..and Ive seen them do exactly
what you are doing for years as production lathes.

Just be sure to use as large a braking resistor as you can...200 watts

We use the old faithful standby PC3/Yaskawa 606PC3/yada yada yada
VFD..its been labled by everyone under the sun.. and is absolutely
bullet proof. The only time Ive every replaced one in the 12 or so
years OmniTurn has been using them..was the result of either lightning
or flood, or forklift damage.

And the lightning only took out the 0-10 volt analog voltage
section. Im
currently running my Gorton Mastermill on that same VFD using a pot to
change speed..and have been..on single phase..for almost 10 yrs.

Hey! That's exactly what I was babbling about in theory, only you know
the real part numbers!

Actually..in the Real World..Im fairly competent. Here on Usenet, I get
to put on the silly hat, or speak from the dark reaches of my
backbrain..G

Braking resistors, huh? No one wants to shove the braking power
backwards up the electrical line (which is eminently possible in theory,
with lots of practical difficulties). They could call them "green",
then.

One really needs to use a braking resistor on most VFDs. Many of the
older ones had a built in one..or simply coasted to a stop. Nearly all
VFDs made in the last 10 yrs have that output.

The need for a braking _something_ comes from simple physics: if you
want to slow that there motor down you gotta remove the kinetic energy
from the motor and whatever it's attached to, and that kinetic energy
has to go somewhere.

So you either shove it into a resistor, you induce some _really_
inefficient operation in the motor, or you shove it up the power
company's ass-embly.

Shoving it into a resistor is easy, 'cause the VFD will have a 'raw
power' rail in it somewhere, which would go over voltage without putting
the energy somewhere, and the easy place to put that energy is into a
braking resistor.

I read somewhere of a machine shop that used an extra element in
their water heater for a vfd braking resistor.

"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:47 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

snip

http://cgi.ebay.com/Resistor-power-r...-/150467109756

It really doesnt need to be 200 watts on a home machine. Even 100 watts
will work fine.

All you got to do is take your ohm meter..tweak it the slider to the
proper ohms rating for your vfd..and hook up some wires.


Be careful when using a slider to set the ohms. You'll need to derate
the wattage proportional to the setting. ie 50% of the ohms is 50% of
the wattage. http://www.ohmite.com/catalog/210_series.html
The other thing is the reliability of the slider connection is
much lower than the reliability of a fixed resistor.
Art

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Gunner Asch wrote:
...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Regenerati...-/170531505301

...

Oh, that's good one: "... Regenerative Braking Resistor ...". I guess
"regenerative" is a new buzz word that sounds good (& green), that
people will be using when neither they nor their readers know what it
means.

It's not a new word and it's a wrong word for the
application. GE straight electric locomotives
were using true regenerative braking in 1915.
Most all diesel-electric locomotives use dynamic
braking meaning a big hulking resistor.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:00:36 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Making the motor burn it up is, in general, just plain stupid. You'd
have to do some crazy thing (like putting a DC current into the motor)


Actually..thats how most VFDs apply braking.....G



I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 19:13:36 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Gunner Asch wrote:
...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Iwaki-Regenerati...-/170531505301
...

Oh, that's good one: "... Regenerative Braking Resistor ...". I guess
"regenerative" is a new buzz word that sounds good (& green), that
people will be using when neither they nor their readers know what it means.

Sigh,
Bob

Hey - does that mean that I can say that the brakes on my car are
regenerative?

Chuckle...actually..it does use active technology to induce braking, not
just kicking the power out.

VFDs inject DC current into ac motors to slow and stop them. The
resulting hysterisis must go somewhere. Hence the braking resistors are
used to burn off the mess.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:23:46 -0700, "Artemus" wrote:


"Gunner Asch" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:47 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

snip

http://cgi.ebay.com/Resistor-power-r...-/150467109756

It really doesnt need to be 200 watts on a home machine. Even 100 watts
will work fine.

All you got to do is take your ohm meter..tweak it the slider to the
proper ohms rating for your vfd..and hook up some wires.


Be careful when using a slider to set the ohms. You'll need to derate
the wattage proportional to the setting. ie 50% of the ohms is 50% of
the wattage. http://www.ohmite.com/catalog/210_series.html
The other thing is the reliability of the slider connection is
much lower than the reliability of a fixed resistor.
Art

True indeed. Which is why you use a power resistor as close to your
needed ohms as possible. You get the maximum value of the heat handling
of the resistor.
Fixed 200 watt resistors are a bit harder to find and a bit more
expensive, though Im seeing them on Ebay much cheaper these days.

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)

Jim Stewart wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Oh, that's good one: "... Regenerative Braking Resistor ...". I guess
"regenerative" is a new buzz word that sounds good ...

It's not a new word

I know, I meant being new-ly used as a buzz word

and it's a wrong word for the application. ...

That was my point.

Bob

On Aug 23, 3:08*pm, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:
I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. *An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... *But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER:http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK:http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R

According to this (from 2007 post):
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=178863&page=9
"inverter duty" is a vague term. You might be better off finding out
what NEMA specifications (if any) for the motor in question. NEMA MC1
provides more detailed information about what the motor should take.

On Aug 24, 8:03*am, "Denis G." wrote:
On Aug 23, 3:08*pm, "Joe AutoDrill" wrote:





I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. *An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... *But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills:http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills:http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping:http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site:http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS:http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER:http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
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V8013-R

According to this (from 2007 post):http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.c...=178863&page=9
"inverter duty" is a vague term. *You might be better off finding out
what NEMA specifications (if any) for the motor in question. *NEMA MC1
provides more detailed information about what the motor should take.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Added info;
http://www.leeson.com/leeson/searchp...&productType=0

In article ,
Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 15:12:47 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

On 08/23/2010 03:07 PM, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:08:44 -0400, "Joe
wrote:

I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse
the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past
week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone
calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although
WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information
on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying
it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Joe...WEG motors are what OmniTurn uses..and Ive seen them do exactly
what you are doing for years as production lathes.

Just be sure to use as large a braking resistor as you can...200 watts

We use the old faithful standby PC3/Yaskawa 606PC3/yada yada yada
VFD..its been labled by everyone under the sun.. and is absolutely
bullet proof. The only time Ive every replaced one in the 12 or so
years OmniTurn has been using them..was the result of either lightning
or flood, or forklift damage.

And the lightning only took out the 0-10 volt analog voltage section. Im
currently running my Gorton Mastermill on that same VFD using a pot to
change speed..and have been..on single phase..for almost 10 yrs.

Hey! That's exactly what I was babbling about in theory, only you know
the real part numbers!

Actually..in the Real World..Im fairly competent. Here on Usenet, I get
to put on the silly hat, or speak from the dark reaches of my
backbrain..G

Braking resistors, huh? No one wants to shove the braking power
backwards up the electrical line (which is eminently possible in theory,
with lots of practical difficulties). They could call them "green", then.

One really needs to use a braking resistor on most VFDs. Many of the
older ones had a built in one..or simply coasted to a stop. Nearly all
VFDs made in the last 10 yrs have that output. Tubular ceramic resistors
can be had on Ebay for a few bucks and are far far cheaper than the flat
packed heatsinked resistors used on commercial machines. The 200 watt
tube resistor Ive got mine hooked to, cost me $4, shipping included G

http://cgi.ebay.com/HEAP-ASSORTED-HIGH-WATTAGE-RESISTORS-YOU-GET-42PCS-/300457464945

See the long *******s to the right of the pile? Those thingies.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Resistor-power-resistor-wire-wound-25-ohms-175-watts-/150467109756

It really doesnt need to be 200 watts on a home machine. Even 100 watts
will work fine.

Be sure to enclose that resistor in a grounded metal box such that the resistor
cannot be accidentally touched, or be shorted by flying chips. There will be
something like 450 volts (backed by a large capacitor and the rectified AC power
line) across that resistor when braking. There could be drama.

Joe Gwinn

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Jim Stewart wrote:
Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Oh, that's good one: "... Regenerative Braking Resistor ...". I guess
"regenerative" is a new buzz word that sounds good ...

It's not a new word

I know, I meant being new-ly used as a buzz word

and it's a wrong word for the application. ...

That was my point.

Bob

Dissipate goes hand & hand with resistors

Gunner. Did you get your anwer over in the Yahoo group? There's a
guy with a 1500 who looked at the belt on his machine and responded to
your inquiry today. It may not be the right belt since he's
describing it going from the motor to the spindle rather than to a
countershaft like the 5900 / 6900's but maybe that's the way the 1500s
are built.

RWL

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:08:44 -0400, "Joe AutoDrill"
wrote:

I'm about to use a Leeson model 110163 motor for a job that will reverse the
motor approximately every 4 seconds with a proper inverter, breaking
resistor, etc.

I've tried contacting multiple AC drive experts at Leeson over the past week
or so with not a single live person answering and zero returned phone calls.

I've got to use the Leeson because of the motor's dimensions... Although WEG
and a Chinese import I found both would fit and are inverter rated...

I'm wondering if anyone knows where one could find specs or information on
just what an inverter rated motor can take as far as constant reversing
abuse, etc.

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor. An
external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and spraying it
with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for this particular
customer.

Thanks for any insight or help you can offer.

Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R


There's no simple answer but this may help a bit.

VFDs use two different methods of braking control. The preferred
method, usually labelled deceleration time setting, turns the
motor into a pretty efficient generator and channels the motor
armature kinetic energy back into the supply and/or into an
external braking resistor.

For long deceleration times the peak regenerated power is low
and can be absorbed by the normal VFD system losses. When
programmed for shorter deceleration times the peak power exceeds
the system losses and unless an external braking resistor is
fitted to absorb the excess generated power the braking action
will disappear.

With an external resistor this method is very kind to the motor
because the losses in the motor during braking are not much
larger than in normal full load operation. It's not suitable for
emergency stops or very short braking times because the peak
generated power then exceeds the VFD power handling capacity.

For shorter stopping times DC injection is used. This is pretty
brutal because all the motor kinetic energy and the added DC
injection power is now dissipated within the motor. The amount of
DC injection used is also programmable so use as little as
possible. However, even with the minimum injection most of the
kinetic energy is still dissipated in the motor.

Similar arguments apply to motor starting. With direct online
starting large starting currents flow and, because for most of
the time there is the wrong relation between supply frequency and
motor RPM a very large amount power is dissipated in the motor
windings.This is reason for limiting the permissble number of
starts per hour.

Starting via a VFD is much more favourable. The program control
is now acceleration time setting. Within the permissible range
the VFD can control the relation between VFD frequency and
voltage and this enbles the motor to operate at near normal
efficiency permitting frequent starts

Because in both starting and stopping the VFD limits the peak
power that can be handled it helps to oversize the VFD

Jim

Gunner Asch wrote:

On Mon, 23 Aug 2010 16:00:36 -0700, Tim Wescott
wrote:

Making the motor burn it up is, in general, just plain stupid. You'd
have to do some crazy thing (like putting a DC current into the motor)


Actually..thats how most VFDs apply braking.....G

Some machines don't have the VFD and still use dc braking.
That is how the tool changer is stopped on some old Mori Seki VMC's.

Wes

fired this volley in
:



...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor.
An external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and
spraying it with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for
this particular customer.

Joe, I just now caught what you said. (after all this timeg)

Son, a TEFC motor HAS an external fan! So what did you mean "An external
fan may help....not able to go either route..."?

LLoyd

...and before anyone suggests it, it must be a 56C face, TEFC motor.
An external fan may help a bit as would using a washdown motor and
spraying it with coolant... But I'm not able to go either route for
this particular customer.

Joe, I just now caught what you said. (after all this timeg)

Son, a TEFC motor HAS an external fan! So what did you mean "An external
fan may help....not able to go either route..."?

An external fan that does not slow down or speed up with the VFD. In other
words, an external air source that is blowing even if the motor is not
turning.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill
TWITTER: http://twitter.com/AutoDrill
FACEBOOK: http://tinyurl.com/AutoDrill-Facebook

V8013-R

On Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:29:07 -0400, GeoLane at PTD dot NET GeoLane at
PTD dot NET wrote:


Gunner. Did you get your anwer over in the Yahoo group? There's a
guy with a 1500 who looked at the belt on his machine and responded to
your inquiry today. It may not be the right belt since he's
describing it going from the motor to the spindle rather than to a
countershaft like the 5900 / 6900's but maybe that's the way the 1500s
are built.

RWL

No..Ive been in LA for the past couple days.

I bought a new belt from Thompson Industrial Bearings, today for $75
out the door.

They had to order it in from a warehouse. Ill go out to the car in the
morning and bring it in, and post the numbers and whatnot.
I cant remember who made it..started with a B.....

But its a duplicate of the belt that came off the lathe.

Clausing wanted $130, plus shipping, so I figure Im about $60 ahead of
the deal

Still $25 more than I figured it should cost..but...sometimes one has to
bite the bullet

Gunner


I am the Sword of my Family
and the Shield of my Nation.
If sent, I will crush everything you have built,
burn everything you love,
and kill every one of you.
(Hebrew quote)