The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

Channel-surfing from ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN through MSNBC and Fox
News, the inside-the-beltway pundits had a field day trying to get
inside the heads of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, General Stanley
McChrystal, and McChrystal's top aides. The one thing common to all
of the analyses, by the most famous and highly-paid talking heads in
the Western World, was that they are all wrong… dead wrong. What is
certain is that they all owe General McChrystal and his senior aides
an apology for assuming that they are lame-brained numbskulls.

The facts of the McChrystal case are not in dispute. General
McChrystal and his senior officers allowed a reporter for Rolling
Stone Magazine, Michael Hastings, to have almost unprecedented access
during an extended stay in Paris. The extended stay was due, in part,
to an excess of atmospheric ash from Iceland's Eyjafjallajokull
volcano, keeping the McChrystal party grounded for days.

In an interview with CNN, Hastings reported that he had a tape
recorder in his hand most of the time and that McChrystal was "very
aware" that his comments would find their way into print. He said,
"McChrystal and his people set no ground rules for their
conversations, although they did ask that some parts of their
conversations were off the record." Hastings subsequently published a
lengthy profile of General McChrystal on June 22, titled, The Runaway
General.

As Hastings wrote in his profile, McChrystal thought that Obama looked
"uncomfortable and intimidated" by the roomful of military brass
during their first meeting. Of their second meeting, an advisor to
McChrystal quoted the general as saying that it was "a 10-minute photo
op." He went on to say, "Obama clearly didn't know anything about
(McChrystal), who he was. Here's the guy who's going to run his f_ _
_ing war, but he didn't seem very engaged. The Boss was pretty
disappointed."

As General McChrystal flew from Afghanistan to Washington to face
Obama in the Oval Office, the almost unanimous opinion of the talking
heads was that the comments made by McChrystal and his staff were off
the cuff and inadvertent. But to believe that is to totally ignore
who these men are.

General McChrystal and his top officers are not simple-minded,
knuckle-dragging brutes. To the contrary, they are intelligent,
thoughtful, highly educated, patriots… graduates of West Point and
other fine universities… who are dedicated to duty, honor, and
country. To think that such men would be so careless as to speak
unflatteringly of Obama, Biden, and other top administration figures,
in the presence of a reporter for a notoriously left wing publication,
defies logic… at the very least. To think that men who are trained to
be careful and deliberate in everything they do, could do something so
careless and so unguarded is simply beyond comprehension.

I would argue that McChrystal and his aides knew exactly what they
were doing.

From the day that he became the handpicked "spear carrier" for Obama's
unique brand of warfare… playing at being Commander in Chief while
playing to his far left constituency… McChrystal's life had been one
of constant frustration. After telling Obama exactly how many troops
he needed to carry out his mission, Obama dithered for months before
deciding to give him just half the troops he requested. McChrystal
could not have been happy about that.

The Obama team insisted on new Rules of Engagement designed to reduce
collateral damage (civilian casualties). Obama's ROE required that
U.S. troops must be able to see the enemy with weapon in hand before
they were allowed to return fire. One videotape circulated on the
Internet showed a platoon of Marines pinned down by enemy sniper fire.
But since the enemy was firing from some distance behind the open
window of a building, the Marines could not actually see the weapon
being fired. Although they were taking deadly fire, they were
prohibited by the ROE from putting small arms fire or an RPG through
the window opening.

Under Obama's politically correct ROE, our soldiers and Marines were
required to fight with one hand tied behind their backs. McChrystal
could not have been happy about that.

A strict new interrogation policy, dictated by Attorney General Eric
Holder, required that prisoners must be delivered to an Interrogation
Center within twenty-four hours of being captured or be released. A
great deal of actionable intelligence was lost as a result and
battle-hardened enemy fighters were returned to the field to kill
Americans. McChrystal must have found that to be incomprehensible.

But the greatest insult to our troops in the field, and to the
officers who lead them, may be a new battlefield medal designed by the
Obama team. It is called the Courageous Restraint Medal and is
awarded to soldiers and Marines who demonstrate uncommon restrain in
combat by not firing their weapons even when they feel threatened by
the enemy. Would we be surprised to learn that the preponderance of
these medals were awarded posthumously? McChrystal must have found
that to be an insanity.

I suggest that, having his best military judgments subjected to the
White House political sieve for nearly a year and a half, McChrystal
decided that he'd had enough. And when he announced to his senior
staff that he was prepared to retire they decided to push back… to
make the most of a bad situation. It was clear that, if McChrystal
were to simply take off his uniform and walk away, his retirement
would be page-twenty news for a day or two before the mainstream media
and the American people forgot all about him.

They had to make the most of his retirement because it provided a
one-time opportunity to show the American people, as well as our
enemies and our allies, that the man who claims the title of Commander
in Chief of the U.S. military does not command the respect of our men
and women in uniform. To make the most of that opportunity they had
to choose their messenger very carefully.

They knew that, by openly showing their disrespect for Obama in front
of just any newsman, they may not attract the attention they desired.
Like any astute observer of the MSM, they knew that most reporters
would turn on their own mothers if it meant a good story. But they
could not take a chance that a mainstream media reporter might suffer
a rare pang of conscience when confronted with the prospect of ruining
the careers of some of the most senior officers in the War on Terror.
They had to fix the odds as much as possible in their favor so they
chose to use Michael Hastings and Rolling Stone Magazine.

During the long hours that General McChrystal was in the air between
Kabul and Washington, Obama knew that he had just two choices… both
bad. He could declare McChrystal to be an irreplaceable asset in the
war effort, give him a public reprimand, and send him back to Kabul.
Or he could fire McChrystal, sending a clear message that, at least in
his own mind, he was the Commander in Chief.

In the former case, he was certain to appear weak and ineffectual… a
man not totally in charge. In the latter case, he might at least win
a few rave reviews from the Kool-Ade drinkers in the mainstream media.
He chose the latter of the two options.

But what is now lost in all of the hand-wringing and speculation is
the fact that McChrystal and his people have succeeded in doing
exactly what they set out to do. They wanted to plant the seed in the
minds of the American people that Obama is not up to the task of being
Commander in Chief and that he does not command the respect of the men
and women of the uniformed services… from the newest Private E-1 up to
the top four-star generals and admirals.

That seed is now firmly planted and it cannot be unplanted.

From this day forward, no one will have to tell the American people
that Stanley McChrystal is a true warrior, a man's man, and that
Barack Obama is nothing more than a… community organizer. Well done,
General!

On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 23:31:23 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote:

The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

Channel-surfing from ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN through MSNBC and Fox
News, the inside-the-beltway pundits had a field day trying to get
inside the heads of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, General Stanley
McChrystal, and McChrystal's top aides. The one thing common to all
of the analyses, by the most famous and highly-paid talking heads in
the Western World, was that they are all wrong… dead wrong. What is
certain is that they all owe General McChrystal and his senior aides
an apology for assuming that they are lame-brained numbskulls.

The facts of the McChrystal case are not in dispute. General
McChrystal and his senior officers allowed a reporter for Rolling
Stone Magazine, Michael Hastings, to have almost unprecedented access
during an extended stay in Paris. The extended stay was due, in part,
to an excess of atmospheric ash from Iceland's Eyjafjallajokull
volcano, keeping the McChrystal party grounded for days.

In an interview with CNN, Hastings reported that he had a tape
recorder in his hand most of the time and that McChrystal was "very
aware" that his comments would find their way into print. He said,
"McChrystal and his people set no ground rules for their
conversations, although they did ask that some parts of their
conversations were off the record." Hastings subsequently published a
lengthy profile of General McChrystal on June 22, titled, The Runaway
General.

As Hastings wrote in his profile, McChrystal thought that Obama looked
"uncomfortable and intimidated" by the roomful of military brass
during their first meeting. Of their second meeting, an advisor to
McChrystal quoted the general as saying that it was "a 10-minute photo
op." He went on to say, "Obama clearly didn't know anything about
(McChrystal), who he was. Here's the guy who's going to run his f_ _
_ing war, but he didn't seem very engaged. The Boss was pretty
disappointed."

As General McChrystal flew from Afghanistan to Washington to face
Obama in the Oval Office, the almost unanimous opinion of the talking
heads was that the comments made by McChrystal and his staff were off
the cuff and inadvertent. But to believe that is to totally ignore
who these men are.

General McChrystal and his top officers are not simple-minded,
knuckle-dragging brutes. To the contrary, they are intelligent,
thoughtful, highly educated, patriots… graduates of West Point and
other fine universities… who are dedicated to duty, honor, and
country. To think that such men would be so careless as to speak
unflatteringly of Obama, Biden, and other top administration figures,
in the presence of a reporter for a notoriously left wing publication,
defies logic… at the very least. To think that men who are trained to
be careful and deliberate in everything they do, could do something so
careless and so unguarded is simply beyond comprehension.

I would argue that McChrystal and his aides knew exactly what they
were doing.

From the day that he became the handpicked "spear carrier" for Obama's
unique brand of warfare… playing at being Commander in Chief while
playing to his far left constituency… McChrystal's life had been one
of constant frustration. After telling Obama exactly how many troops
he needed to carry out his mission, Obama dithered for months before
deciding to give him just half the troops he requested. McChrystal
could not have been happy about that.

The Obama team insisted on new Rules of Engagement designed to reduce
collateral damage (civilian casualties). Obama's ROE required that
U.S. troops must be able to see the enemy with weapon in hand before
they were allowed to return fire. One videotape circulated on the
Internet showed a platoon of Marines pinned down by enemy sniper fire.
But since the enemy was firing from some distance behind the open
window of a building, the Marines could not actually see the weapon
being fired. Although they were taking deadly fire, they were
prohibited by the ROE from putting small arms fire or an RPG through
the window opening.

Under Obama's politically correct ROE, our soldiers and Marines were
required to fight with one hand tied behind their backs. McChrystal
could not have been happy about that.

A strict new interrogation policy, dictated by Attorney General Eric
Holder, required that prisoners must be delivered to an Interrogation
Center within twenty-four hours of being captured or be released. A
great deal of actionable intelligence was lost as a result and
battle-hardened enemy fighters were returned to the field to kill
Americans. McChrystal must have found that to be incomprehensible.

But the greatest insult to our troops in the field, and to the
officers who lead them, may be a new battlefield medal designed by the
Obama team. It is called the Courageous Restraint Medal and is
awarded to soldiers and Marines who demonstrate uncommon restrain in
combat by not firing their weapons even when they feel threatened by
the enemy. Would we be surprised to learn that the preponderance of
these medals were awarded posthumously? McChrystal must have found
that to be an insanity.

I suggest that, having his best military judgments subjected to the
White House political sieve for nearly a year and a half, McChrystal
decided that he'd had enough. And when he announced to his senior
staff that he was prepared to retire they decided to push back… to
make the most of a bad situation. It was clear that, if McChrystal
were to simply take off his uniform and walk away, his retirement
would be page-twenty news for a day or two before the mainstream media
and the American people forgot all about him.

They had to make the most of his retirement because it provided a
one-time opportunity to show the American people, as well as our
enemies and our allies, that the man who claims the title of Commander
in Chief of the U.S. military does not command the respect of our men
and women in uniform. To make the most of that opportunity they had
to choose their messenger very carefully.

They knew that, by openly showing their disrespect for Obama in front
of just any newsman, they may not attract the attention they desired.
Like any astute observer of the MSM, they knew that most reporters
would turn on their own mothers if it meant a good story. But they
could not take a chance that a mainstream media reporter might suffer
a rare pang of conscience when confronted with the prospect of ruining
the careers of some of the most senior officers in the War on Terror.
They had to fix the odds as much as possible in their favor so they
chose to use Michael Hastings and Rolling Stone Magazine.

During the long hours that General McChrystal was in the air between
Kabul and Washington, Obama knew that he had just two choices… both
bad. He could declare McChrystal to be an irreplaceable asset in the
war effort, give him a public reprimand, and send him back to Kabul.
Or he could fire McChrystal, sending a clear message that, at least in
his own mind, he was the Commander in Chief.

In the former case, he was certain to appear weak and ineffectual… a
man not totally in charge. In the latter case, he might at least win
a few rave reviews from the Kool-Ade drinkers in the mainstream media.
He chose the latter of the two options.

But what is now lost in all of the hand-wringing and speculation is
the fact that McChrystal and his people have succeeded in doing
exactly what they set out to do. They wanted to plant the seed in the
minds of the American people that Obama is not up to the task of being
Commander in Chief and that he does not command the respect of the men
and women of the uniformed services… from the newest Private E-1 up to
the top four-star generals and admirals.

That seed is now firmly planted and it cannot be unplanted.

From this day forward, no one will have to tell the American people
that Stanley McChrystal is a true warrior, a man's man, and that
Barack Obama is nothing more than a… community organizer. Well done,
General!

Very very well presented!!!


Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

Channel-surfing from ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN through MSNBC and Fox
News, the inside-the-beltway pundits had a field day trying to get
inside the heads of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, General Stanley
McChrystal, and McChrystal's top aides. The one thing common to all
of the analyses, by the most famous and highly-paid talking heads in
the Western World, was that they are all wrong. dead wrong. What is
certain is that they all owe General McChrystal and his senior aides
an apology for assuming that they are lame-brained numbskulls.

The facts of the McChrystal case are not in dispute. General
McChrystal and his senior officers allowed a reporter for Rolling
Stone Magazine, Michael Hastings, to have almost unprecedented access
during an extended stay in Paris. The extended stay was due, in part,
to an excess of atmospheric ash from Iceland's Eyjafjallajokull
volcano, keeping the McChrystal party grounded for days.

In an interview with CNN, Hastings reported that he had a tape
recorder in his hand most of the time and that McChrystal was "very
aware" that his comments would find their way into print. He said,
"McChrystal and his people set no ground rules for their
conversations, although they did ask that some parts of their
conversations were off the record." Hastings subsequently published a
lengthy profile of General McChrystal on June 22, titled, The Runaway
General.

As Hastings wrote in his profile, McChrystal thought that Obama looked
"uncomfortable and intimidated" by the roomful of military brass
during their first meeting. Of their second meeting, an advisor to
McChrystal quoted the general as saying that it was "a 10-minute photo
op." He went on to say, "Obama clearly didn't know anything about
(McChrystal), who he was. Here's the guy who's going to run his f_ _
_ing war, but he didn't seem very engaged. The Boss was pretty
disappointed."

As General McChrystal flew from Afghanistan to Washington to face
Obama in the Oval Office, the almost unanimous opinion of the talking
heads was that the comments made by McChrystal and his staff were off
the cuff and inadvertent. But to believe that is to totally ignore
who these men are.

General McChrystal and his top officers are not simple-minded,
knuckle-dragging brutes. To the contrary, they are intelligent,
thoughtful, highly educated, patriots. graduates of West Point and
other fine universities. who are dedicated to duty, honor, and
country. To think that such men would be so careless as to speak
unflatteringly of Obama, Biden, and other top administration figures,
in the presence of a reporter for a notoriously left wing publication,
defies logic. at the very least. To think that men who are trained to
be careful and deliberate in everything they do, could do something so
careless and so unguarded is simply beyond comprehension.

I would argue that McChrystal and his aides knew exactly what they
were doing.

From the day that he became the handpicked "spear carrier" for Obama's
unique brand of warfare. playing at being Commander in Chief while
playing to his far left constituency. McChrystal's life had been one
of constant frustration. After telling Obama exactly how many troops
he needed to carry out his mission, Obama dithered for months before
deciding to give him just half the troops he requested. McChrystal
could not have been happy about that.

The Obama team insisted on new Rules of Engagement designed to reduce
collateral damage (civilian casualties). Obama's ROE required that
U.S. troops must be able to see the enemy with weapon in hand before
they were allowed to return fire. One videotape circulated on the
Internet showed a platoon of Marines pinned down by enemy sniper fire.
But since the enemy was firing from some distance behind the open
window of a building, the Marines could not actually see the weapon
being fired. Although they were taking deadly fire, they were
prohibited by the ROE from putting small arms fire or an RPG through
the window opening.

Under Obama's politically correct ROE, our soldiers and Marines were
required to fight with one hand tied behind their backs. McChrystal
could not have been happy about that.

A strict new interrogation policy, dictated by Attorney General Eric
Holder, required that prisoners must be delivered to an Interrogation
Center within twenty-four hours of being captured or be released. A
great deal of actionable intelligence was lost as a result and
battle-hardened enemy fighters were returned to the field to kill
Americans. McChrystal must have found that to be incomprehensible.

But the greatest insult to our troops in the field, and to the
officers who lead them, may be a new battlefield medal designed by the
Obama team. It is called the Courageous Restraint Medal and is
awarded to soldiers and Marines who demonstrate uncommon restrain in
combat by not firing their weapons even when they feel threatened by
the enemy. Would we be surprised to learn that the preponderance of
these medals were awarded posthumously? McChrystal must have found
that to be an insanity.

I suggest that, having his best military judgments subjected to the
White House political sieve for nearly a year and a half, McChrystal
decided that he'd had enough. And when he announced to his senior
staff that he was prepared to retire they decided to push back. to
make the most of a bad situation. It was clear that, if McChrystal
were to simply take off his uniform and walk away, his retirement
would be page-twenty news for a day or two before the mainstream media
and the American people forgot all about him.

They had to make the most of his retirement because it provided a
one-time opportunity to show the American people, as well as our
enemies and our allies, that the man who claims the title of Commander
in Chief of the U.S. military does not command the respect of our men
and women in uniform. To make the most of that opportunity they had
to choose their messenger very carefully.

They knew that, by openly showing their disrespect for Obama in front
of just any newsman, they may not attract the attention they desired.
Like any astute observer of the MSM, they knew that most reporters
would turn on their own mothers if it meant a good story. But they
could not take a chance that a mainstream media reporter might suffer
a rare pang of conscience when confronted with the prospect of ruining
the careers of some of the most senior officers in the War on Terror.
They had to fix the odds as much as possible in their favor so they
chose to use Michael Hastings and Rolling Stone Magazine.

During the long hours that General McChrystal was in the air between
Kabul and Washington, Obama knew that he had just two choices. both
bad. He could declare McChrystal to be an irreplaceable asset in the
war effort, give him a public reprimand, and send him back to Kabul.
Or he could fire McChrystal, sending a clear message that, at least in
his own mind, he was the Commander in Chief.

In the former case, he was certain to appear weak and ineffectual. a
man not totally in charge. In the latter case, he might at least win
a few rave reviews from the Kool-Ade drinkers in the mainstream media.
He chose the latter of the two options.

But what is now lost in all of the hand-wringing and speculation is
the fact that McChrystal and his people have succeeded in doing
exactly what they set out to do. They wanted to plant the seed in the
minds of the American people that Obama is not up to the task of being
Commander in Chief and that he does not command the respect of the men
and women of the uniformed services. from the newest Private E-1 up to
the top four-star generals and admirals.

That seed is now firmly planted and it cannot be unplanted.

From this day forward, no one will have to tell the American people
that Stanley McChrystal is a true warrior, a man's man, and that
Barack Obama is nothing more than a. community organizer. Well done,
General!

The article presented the ROE as representing McChrystal's philosophy of
winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan population. Also, I smell BS here
since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not consistent with
the rules as explained in this article. WRT the number of troops deployed,
GWB wasn't supporting the Afghanistan effort either. I think McChrystal's
bailing out was more than about Obama, he could see that the whole effort
was bound for failure.

On Fri, 09 Jul 2010 23:31:23 -0500, Don Foreman
wrote the following:

The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010
--big snip--
But what is now lost in all of the hand-wringing and speculation is
the fact that McChrystal and his people have succeeded in doing
exactly what they set out to do. They wanted to plant the seed in the
minds of the American people that Obama is not up to the task of being
Commander in Chief and that he does not command the respect of the men
and women of the uniformed services… from the newest Private E-1 up to
the top four-star generals and admirals.

That seed is now firmly planted and it cannot be unplanted.

From this day forward, no one will have to tell the American people
that Stanley McChrystal is a true warrior, a man's man, and that
Barack Obama is nothing more than a… community organizer. Well done,
General!

Kudos, Paul, and thanks, Don. May I say "I told you so!" now?

The ACORN didn't fall far from the tree, did it?
"Constraint" medal, my ass...

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

"ATP" wrote in message
...

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

snip

The article presented the ROE as representing McChrystal's philosophy of
winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan population. Also, I smell BS
here since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not
consistent with the rules as explained in this article. WRT the number of
troops deployed, GWB wasn't supporting the Afghanistan effort either. I
think McChrystal's bailing out was more than about Obama, he could see
that the whole effort was bound for failure.


McChrystal didn't "bail out." His wife said he is devastated. He just
screwed up, big-time, and he knows it. So do most of the high-level military
officers who have been asked about it.

The article is a pile of home-brewed fluff.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:21:07 -0400, "ATP"
wrote:

Also, I smell BS here
since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not consistent with
the rules as explained in this article.

The so called "rules", dreamed up by pols focussed on spin, have to do
with minimizing visible collateral casualties and pretending that a
combat zone is just another bit of theater, dramatic illusion
completely under control. Drones don't cause any more collateral
casualties than artillery, napalm or carpet bombing. If anything they
are more precisely "surgical".

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:21:07 -0400, "ATP"
wrote:

Also, I smell BS here
since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not consistent
with
the rules as explained in this article.

The so called "rules", dreamed up by pols focussed on spin, have to do
with minimizing visible collateral casualties and pretending that a
combat zone is just another bit of theater, dramatic illusion
completely under control. Drones don't cause any more collateral
casualties than artillery, napalm or carpet bombing. If anything they
are more precisely "surgical".

I don't think any of the above matters much Don.
McCrystal and his staff were always pretty full of themselves and putting
that hubris on public display wasn't just bad form, it violated the military
code of conduct.

The guy threw away his professional career, at least any future he'd hoped
for, and I don't think it was done purposefully.
There are many ways a guy this senior can be heard on both the civilian and
military side.

Hell, Rickover used to just pick up the phone or have a get together with
the Congressional members he'd studiously courted.

McCrystal's actions were just thoughtless and stupid - again. He's lucky he
didn't lose a star and that he didn't is a demonstration that Obama had a
lot more class in this matter that McCrystal showed.

McCrystal's first mistake was swept aside. The second couldn't be ignored in
the same way and everyone knew it.
Conspiracy theorists will have to search elsewhere.

J

In article ,
Don Foreman wrote:

The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

Channel-surfing from ABC, CBS, NBC, and CNN through MSNBC and Fox
News, the inside-the-beltway pundits had a field day trying to get
inside the heads of Barack Obama, Joe Biden, General Stanley
McChrystal, and McChrystal's top aides. The one thing common to all
of the analyses, by the most famous and highly-paid talking heads in
the Western World, was that they are all wrong… dead wrong. What is
certain is that they all owe General McChrystal and his senior aides
an apology for assuming that they are lame-brained numbskulls.

The facts of the McChrystal case are not in dispute. General
McChrystal and his senior officers allowed a reporter for Rolling
Stone Magazine, Michael Hastings, to have almost unprecedented access
during an extended stay in Paris. The extended stay was due, in part,
to an excess of atmospheric ash from Iceland's Eyjafjallajokull
volcano, keeping the McChrystal party grounded for days.

In an interview with CNN, Hastings reported that he had a tape
recorder in his hand most of the time and that McChrystal was "very
aware" that his comments would find their way into print. He said,
"McChrystal and his people set no ground rules for their
conversations, although they did ask that some parts of their
conversations were off the record." Hastings subsequently published a
lengthy profile of General McChrystal on June 22, titled, The Runaway
General.
[snip]

I must say I never believed that McChrystal didn't intend something like the
achieved effect. One doesn't get to that level in the military of any major
power without being reasonably political. So, I think that the intent was to
poke Obama in the ribs, hard. The implication being that McChrystal feels very
deeply that we will lose in Afganistan unless there are major changes to policy
in Washington.

I wonder when McChrystal's memoirs will come out.

Joe Gwinn

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:14:16 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:21:07 -0400, "ATP"
wrote:

Also, I smell BS here
since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not consistent
with
the rules as explained in this article.

The so called "rules", dreamed up by pols focussed on spin, have to do
with minimizing visible collateral casualties and pretending that a
combat zone is just another bit of theater, dramatic illusion
completely under control. Drones don't cause any more collateral
casualties than artillery, napalm or carpet bombing. If anything they
are more precisely "surgical".

I don't think any of the above matters much Don.

I agree.

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:14:16 -0700, "John R. Carroll"
wrote:


"Don Foreman" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 09:21:07 -0400, "ATP"
wrote:

Also, I smell BS here
since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not consistent
with
the rules as explained in this article.

The so called "rules", dreamed up by pols focussed on spin, have to do
with minimizing visible collateral casualties and pretending that a
combat zone is just another bit of theater, dramatic illusion
completely under control. Drones don't cause any more collateral
casualties than artillery, napalm or carpet bombing. If anything they
are more precisely "surgical".

I don't think any of the above matters much Don.

I agree.

Livermore is completing a project right now that was begun several years
ago.
It seems that in 2006 the WH was concerned that our 500lb MK 82's were
causing to much damage - collateral damage.
Livermore is completing the first 500 units of a rather expensive low
collateral damage version of the 82 that includes a moded casing and a
carbon fiber woven containment shield from end to end.

Once the initial run is complete, Aerojet is going to make production
quantities up in their Sacramento area facility.
Had General McCrystal really wanted to stir the pot he'd have made something
like this the focus of his remarks.

Personally, I say the more collateral damage the better. That's the whole
point ya' know.
The locals can stop harboring the enemy if they can't take a joke.
Otherwise, there will be consequences.

I think the world has well and truly gone completely insane.....


JC

On 7/10/2010 6:56 AM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...

"Don wrote in message
...
The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

snip

The article presented the ROE as representing McChrystal's philosophy of
winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan population. Also, I smell BS
here since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not
consistent with the rules as explained in this article. WRT the number of
troops deployed, GWB wasn't supporting the Afghanistan effort either. I
think McChrystal's bailing out was more than about Obama, he could see
that the whole effort was bound for failure.


McChrystal didn't "bail out." His wife said he is devastated. He just
screwed up, big-time, and he knows it. So do most of the high-level military
officers who have been asked about it.

The article is a pile of home-brewed fluff.



I say a look at the evidence shows pretty much what is the truth here.
McChrystal was the guy who was behind the cover up of the Pat Tillman
friendly fire incident, where instead of owning up to his death by
friendly fire they tried to make him out to be a hero killed by the
enemy. I say that shows he's not afraid to lie. Then he blabs like an
idiot all his complaints about the civilian leadership to a reporter.
That's just plain stupid. So going by those moves he's shown to be
stupid and a liar. That's just the fact. So it seems credible that
McChrystal did himself in and not on purpose. He didn't go out the way a
general would want to.

Then you have the problem of the ROE. The military strategy is not to
defeat the Taliban like you would a normal army. Everybody knows we
don't have the army to do that. That's why we are using the COIN Counter
Insurgency strategy instead. A key part of that strategy is to win over
the civilian population and by doing so deprive the Taliban from having
them helping them. The most important part of winning over the civilians
is to be sure not to kill them. If we took a lax standard for civilian
deaths it would be counter productive to our COIN strategy to win the
war. So by the design of Petraeus and McChrystal strict rules of
engagement are required so as not to drive the civilians over to the
Taliban. Blaming those rules of engagement on tying the hands of the
troops is a lot of hogwash. The troops always want to shoot first and
ask questions later. If we let them do that it defeats our COIN plan. So
when you add it all up it's clear that it wasn't the ROE or the fact the
war is not winnable that caused McChrystal to lose his job. It was
really stupid, what I'd call "rookie" mistakes on his part. In other
words, he did himself in and has nobody to blame but himself. Blaming
Obama is just scapegoating.

Hawke

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I wonder when McChrystal's memoirs will come out.

I'm sure there are publishers trying to court him. I'd just like to know the real, 'no
chit' story on this. Like many things, it is likely going to be a mystery.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:24:36 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I wonder when McChrystal's memoirs will come out.

I'm sure there are publishers trying to court him. I'd just like to know the real, 'no
chit' story on this. Like many things, it is likely going to be a mystery.

Wes


Want to start a pool, that his book is written in less than a year?

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"ATP" wrote in message
...

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

snip

The article presented the ROE as representing McChrystal's philosophy of
winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan population. Also, I smell BS
here since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not
consistent with the rules as explained in this article. WRT the number of
troops deployed, GWB wasn't supporting the Afghanistan effort either. I
think McChrystal's bailing out was more than about Obama, he could see
that the whole effort was bound for failure.


McChrystal didn't "bail out." His wife said he is devastated. He just
screwed up, big-time, and he knows it. So do most of the high-level
military officers who have been asked about it.

The article is a pile of home-brewed fluff.

--
Ed Huntress

The (above) article's entire point is to attack Obama, it's just a
propaganda piece. I don't think McChrystal consciously and deliberately
bailed, but I have seen reckless talk when people get to the point where
they just want out of whatever situation they are in.

Gunner Asch wrote:

I'm sure there are publishers trying to court him. I'd just like to know the real, 'no
chit' story on this. Like many things, it is likely going to be a mystery.

Wes


Want to start a pool, that his book is written in less than a year?


Tough call there. If he knows he screwed up, not a chance, if he feels he got screwed
over maybe but he might be that kind of guy that will take the hit because he might feel
partially at blame. I'm going to go with not likely at this point.

Wes

"ATP" wrote in message
...

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"ATP" wrote in message
...

"Don Foreman" wrote in message
...
The General and the Community Organizer

by Paul R. Hollrah
June 24, 2010

snip

The article presented the ROE as representing McChrystal's philosophy of
winning the hearts and minds of the Afghan population. Also, I smell BS
here since we are still using drones to kill people, that is not
consistent with the rules as explained in this article. WRT the number
of troops deployed, GWB wasn't supporting the Afghanistan effort either.
I think McChrystal's bailing out was more than about Obama, he could see
that the whole effort was bound for failure.


McChrystal didn't "bail out." His wife said he is devastated. He just
screwed up, big-time, and he knows it. So do most of the high-level
military officers who have been asked about it.

The article is a pile of home-brewed fluff.

--
Ed Huntress

The (above) article's entire point is to attack Obama, it's just a
propaganda piece. I don't think McChrystal consciously and deliberately
bailed, but I have seen reckless talk when people get to the point where
they just want out of whatever situation they are in.

It's the endless conspiratorialism of the right, combined with an obsequious
deference to the military, combined with a convenient disregard of the
civilian control on which our military is ensconced in the Constitution and
the 2nd Amendment.

This is a remnant of the old-time conservatism -- paleoconservatism -- with
its thread of authoritarianism and a recent (since WWII) addition of
aggressive militarism. Every once in a while a field general will get a
little frisky and has to be reminded about who is in charge.

--
Ed Huntress

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:40:48 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:24:36 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I wonder when McChrystal's memoirs will come out.

I'm sure there are publishers trying to court him. I'd just like to know the real, 'no
chit' story on this. Like many things, it is likely going to be a mystery.

Wes


Want to start a pool, that his book is written in less than a year?

I would, but who'd bet against us? chortle

This just in from email, and quite on-topic to this off-topic topic.
--snip--
January 2013
One sunny day in January 2013 an old man approached the White House
from across Pennsylvania Avenue, where he'd been sitting on a park
bench. He spoke to the U.S. Marine standing guard and said, "I would
like to go in and meet with President Obama."
The Marine looked at the man and said, "Sir, Mr. Obama is no longer
president and no longer resides here."
The old man said, "Okay", and walked away.
The following day, the same man approached the White House and said to
the same Marine, "I would like to go in and meet with President
Obama."
The Marine again told the man, "Sir, as I said yesterday, Mr. Obama is
no longer president and no longer resides here."
The man thanked him and, again, just walked away.
The third day, the same man approached the White House and spoke to
the very same U.S. Marine, saying "I would like to go in and meet with
President Obama."
The Marine, understandably agitated at this point, looked at the man
and said, "Sir, this is the third day in a row you have been here
asking to speak to Mr. Obama. I've told you already that Mr. Obama is
no longer the president and no longer resides here. Don't you
understand?"

The old man looked at the Marine and said,
"Oh, I understand. I just love hearing it."

The Marine snapped to attention, saluted, and said, "See you tomorrow,
Sir."
--snip--

Hooah!

--

EXPLETIVE: A balm, usually applied verbally in hindsight,
which somehow eases those pains and indignities following
our every deficiency in foresight.

"Larry Jaques" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 16:40:48 -0700, Gunner Asch
wrote the following:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 18:24:36 -0400, Wes
wrote:

Joseph Gwinn wrote:

I wonder when McChrystal's memoirs will come out.

I'm sure there are publishers trying to court him. I'd just like to know
the real, 'no
chit' story on this. Like many things, it is likely going to be a
mystery.

Wes


Want to start a pool, that his book is written in less than a year?

I would, but who'd bet against us? chortle

This just in from email, and quite on-topic to this off-topic topic.
--snip--
January 2013
One sunny day in January 2013 an old man approached the White House
from across Pennsylvania Avenue, where he'd been sitting on a park
bench. He spoke to the U.S. Marine standing guard and said, "I would
like to go in and meet with President Obama."
The Marine looked at the man and said, "Sir, Mr. Obama is no longer
president and no longer resides here."
The old man said, "Okay", and walked away.
The following day, the same man approached the White House and said to
the same Marine, "I would like to go in and meet with President
Obama."
The Marine again told the man, "Sir, as I said yesterday, Mr. Obama is
no longer president and no longer resides here."
The man thanked him and, again, just walked away.
The third day, the same man approached the White House and spoke to
the very same U.S. Marine, saying "I would like to go in and meet with
President Obama."
The Marine, understandably agitated at this point, looked at the man
and said, "Sir, this is the third day in a row you have been here
asking to speak to Mr. Obama. I've told you already that Mr. Obama is
no longer the president and no longer resides here. Don't you
understand?"

The old man looked at the Marine and said,
"Oh, I understand. I just love hearing it."

The Marine snapped to attention, saluted, and said, "See you tomorrow,
Sir."
--snip--

Hooah!

Try "hooey." g

You guys are more into fantasies than reality. It probably comes from
reading all of those trashy novels. You should have spent your time reading
Greek tragedy if you want to see McChrystal's precursors. "Ajax" by
Sophocles, would have been a good start.

--
Ed Huntress

On 7/10/2010 4:51 PM, Wes wrote:
Gunner wrote:

I'm sure there are publishers trying to court him. I'd just like to know the real, 'no
chit' story on this. Like many things, it is likely going to be a mystery.

Wes


Want to start a pool, that his book is written in less than a year?


Tough call there. If he knows he screwed up, not a chance, if he feels he got screwed
over maybe but he might be that kind of guy that will take the hit because he might feel
partially at blame. I'm going to go with not likely at this point.

Wes


Of course he screwed up. The only other possibility is that he
"engineered" the situation so he would get himself fired, and that just
isn't plausible. So he didn't get screwed over unless you believe
screwing yourself is not self inflicted. But the other question is what
is going to happen to him for his blundering. My guess is that he's
going to come out of it smelling like a rose. There will be a book. Then
he'll be all over the media like Palin is promoting his book and
himself. Then he'll hook up with some big businesses that are making
billions by providing products to the military and get a cushy and well
paid job. So you'll have a guy who lied about Pat Tillman's death and
tried to cover it up. A guy who blundered badly by blabbing to the press
about his complaints about the war. The end result of those mistakes
will wind up making him rich and famous. You have to love a country
where someone can screw up and wind up so much better off for it. Either
that or you have to just shake your head at how completely unfair things
are here. I mean, how many of us get to make big mistakes and not have
to pay a heavy price for it?

Hawke

The old man looked at the Marine and said,
"Oh, I understand. I just love hearing it."

The Marine snapped to attention, saluted, and said, "See you tomorrow,
Sir."
--snip--

Hooah!

Try "hooey."g

You guys are more into fantasies than reality. It probably comes from
reading all of those trashy novels. You should have spent your time reading
Greek tragedy if you want to see McChrystal's precursors. "Ajax" by
Sophocles, would have been a good start.


Yes, it's pretty hard to pick up on how desperate these guys are to see
a right winger in the White House, isn't it? They pine for another like
Bush/Cheney once more, and fantasize about it every day. The irony is
that when a Democrat is in the White House the country is generally
better off than when a republican is there. Yet they would rather have a
republican president even if it means he'll run the country like Bush
did. It's completely irrational to want an inferior person in charge but
that is what they want, and when they have a capable person in charge
like Obama or Clinton they can't wait to send them packing. Go figure.

Hawke

On 7/11/2010 11:26 AM, Hawke wrote:
I mean, how many of us get to make big mistakes and not have to pay
a heavy price for it?

Hawke

You mean, besides Congress?

David