I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

For those who have experience with the import(regular) collets can you
give me an idea of the kind of problems you've run into, if any, due
to collet inaccuracy? (Before I get the other 32 to complete my round
set).

And am I correct in assuming that even import(regular) collets
wouldn't be anywhere near 1/64th of an inch off of perfect?

Can I also assume that as long as the correct collet is used there
really shouldn't be any real wear?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote:

I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

For those who have experience with the import(regular) collets can you
give me an idea of the kind of problems you've run into, if any, due
to collet inaccuracy? (Before I get the other 32 to complete my round
set).

And am I correct in assuming that even import(regular) collets
wouldn't be anywhere near 1/64th of an inch off of perfect?

Can I also assume that as long as the correct collet is used there
really shouldn't be any real wear?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

Another issue..is that not all collets have the holes drilled in the
middle G

When you have a spindle nose thats dead nuts...000000+/-
and you put in a gauge pin..and the runout is .004....that means
something is not right. If it were .0001..its still not right.

Some of the imports are pretty good. Some are pretty bad. The biggest
problem with a lot of the collet sets..is that you have a mix of good
and bad ones. And if you dont select the good one..when you turn
it..things dont come out the right size.

Ive got a decent assortment of used collets, mostly Hardinge, some
Southbends (decent), some Lyndex, some Royals..some much older brands
like Rivette. But I dont have any chicom collets. Nor am I likely to.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

When you have a spindle nose thats dead nuts...000000+/-

....Which brings up the age old question: Where did the term "dead nuts"
come from?
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote:

I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

For those who have experience with the import(regular) collets can you
give me an idea of the kind of problems you've run into, if any, due
to collet inaccuracy? (Before I get the other 32 to complete my round
set).

And am I correct in assuming that even import(regular) collets
wouldn't be anywhere near 1/64th of an inch off of perfect?

Can I also assume that as long as the correct collet is used there
really shouldn't be any real wear?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.


I have a full set of Travers tool collets, bought new 20+ years ago,
plus a few other imported collets, I've been replacing them with brand
name collets mostly Lyndex. The problem I've found with the cheap
ones is they are all undersize, you have to force a 1/2" rod into a
1/2" collet. With the Lyndex brand it will just slip in and hold
nicely.

A real PITA when you have TGP stock and don't want it all scratched up
shoving it in and out of the collet.

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

On Jun 9, 9:16*am, Randy wrote:
...
...The problem I've found with the cheap
ones is they are all undersize, you have to force a 1/2" rod into a
1/2" collet. *With the Lyndex brand it will just slip in *and hold
nicely.
.....
Randy

It may not actually be undersized. See if the slits warped shut in
hardening. You can jam screwdrivers in to open them when you load or
remove the stock.

jsw

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 08:02:30 -0400
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote:

snip
...Which brings up the age old question: Where did the term
"dead nuts" come from?

I know you're just having some fun with this, but this link has a good
collection of possibilities:

http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=4757

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

Gunner Asch on Wed, 09 Jun 2010 01:24:41 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote:

I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

[snip]

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

Another issue..is that not all collets have the holes drilled in the
middle G

When you have a spindle nose thats dead nuts...000000+/-
and you put in a gauge pin..and the runout is .004....that means
something is not right. If it were .0001..its still not right.

Some of the imports are pretty good. Some are pretty bad. The biggest
problem with a lot of the collet sets..is that you have a mix of good
and bad ones. And if you dont select the good one..when you turn
it..things dont come out the right size.

So, best bet is in your copious spare time, go through all the
collets, and find out what size they "really" are, as well as how true
they might be?
I wonder how one might "true up" a collet. It would also depend
on whether the bore is undersized _and_ off center. Boring an
undersized one might be a challenge - I keep thinking of honing one
"out" to proper size, and possibly even to dead nuts centered, But
that would take some know how as well as time and equipment.
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 08:02:30 -0400
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote:

snip
...Which brings up the age old question: Where did the term
"dead nuts" come from?

I know you're just having some fun with this, but this link has a good
collection of possibilities:

http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=4757

I'm actually pretty serious about finding out... It comes up here at the
shop at least one a month.
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 16:11:53 -0400
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote:

"Leon Fisk" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 08:02:30 -0400
"Joe AutoDrill" wrote:

snip
...Which brings up the age old question: Where did the term
"dead nuts" come from?

I know you're just having some fun with this, but this link has a good
collection of possibilities:

http://www.wordwizard.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?t=4757

I'm actually pretty serious about finding out... It comes up here at the
shop at least one a month.

Well I checked one other source right off, he hadn't written up
anything on that term yet. You could sign up at his site and ask the
question. Dave has a discussion/forum area. See:

http://www.wordorigins.org/

The link I posted covers a lot of sources. I think you will have a hard
time finding much more info than that. Quite a few of my better
reference books are quoted/used in that article.

The Google Books Project has been pushing antedates back for terms like
this with great regularity. Still takes some follow up though, their
OCR process also introduces quite a few errors...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI/Zone 5b
Remove no.spam for email

I'm actually pretty serious about finding out... It comes up here at the
shop at least one a month.

Well I checked one other source right off, he hadn't written up
anything on that term yet. You could sign up at his site and ask the
question. Dave has a discussion/forum area. See:

http://www.wordorigins.org/

The link I posted covers a lot of sources. I think you will have a hard
time finding much more info than that. Quite a few of my better
reference books are quoted/used in that article.

The Google Books Project has been pushing antedates back for terms like
this with great regularity. Still takes some follow up though, their
OCR process also introduces quite a few errors...


Leon,

What you provided was enough to get us to the point of satisfaction for this
week. Thank you.

Might follow up on those other leads in the futuer though. Curiosity...
--


Regards,
Joe Agro, Jr.
(800) 871-5022
01.908.542.0244
Automatic / Pneumatic Drills: http://www.AutoDrill.com
Multiple Spindle Drills: http://www.Multi-Drill.com
Production Tapping: http://Production-Tapping-Equipment.com/
Flagship Site: http://www.Drill-N-Tap.com
VIDEOS: http://www.youtube.com/user/AutoDrill

V8013-R

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote:

The Google Books Project has been pushing antedates back for terms like
this with great regularity. Still takes some follow up though, their
OCR process also introduces quite a few errors...


Leon,

What you provided was enough to get us to the point of satisfaction for this
week. Thank you.

Might follow up on those other leads in the futuer though. Curiosity...


Just remember, the symbol for dead nuts on a drawing is a Double U with an arrow though
both U's.



Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On 2010-06-09, pyotr filipivich wrote:
Gunner Asch on Wed, 09 Jun 2010 01:24:41 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:

[ ... ]

Another issue..is that not all collets have the holes drilled in the
middle G

When you have a spindle nose thats dead nuts...000000+/-
and you put in a gauge pin..and the runout is .004....that means
something is not right. If it were .0001..its still not right.

Some of the imports are pretty good. Some are pretty bad. The biggest
problem with a lot of the collet sets..is that you have a mix of good
and bad ones. And if you dont select the good one..when you turn
it..things dont come out the right size.

So, best bet is in your copious spare time, go through all the
collets, and find out what size they "really" are, as well as how true
they might be?
I wonder how one might "true up" a collet. It would also depend
on whether the bore is undersized _and_ off center. Boring an
undersized one might be a challenge - I keep thinking of honing one
"out" to proper size, and possibly even to dead nuts centered, But
that would take some know how as well as time and equipment.

What I would do is:

1) Put the collet in the lathe spindle.

2) Put pieces of the right size of shim stock in the slots so
it will not close much at all. (You want it to be just a little
oversized when not clamped.)

3) Mount a toolpost grinder on the compound (and put protective
coverings on everything to prevent the grit from damaging
things. Use a diamond to true the stone.

4) Check the runout and diameter as locked on the shims.

5) Grind it out to the desired size (perhaps selected in part by
the runout to be eliminated.

6) Re-mark it to show the actual size which it now fits.

7) Select another to be fixed and go to step one again. (No need
to repeat the protective covering part in (3) above -- just
leave it in place. :-)

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Jun 9, 4:24*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7



wrote:
I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

For those who have experience with the import(regular) collets can you
give me an idea of the kind of problems you've run into, if any, due
to collet inaccuracy? (Before I get the other 32 to complete my round
set).

And am I correct in assuming that even import(regular) collets
wouldn't be anywhere near 1/64th of an inch off of perfect?

Can I also assume that as long as the correct collet is used there
really shouldn't be any real wear?

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. *Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

Another issue..is that not all collets have the holes drilled in the
middle G

When you have a spindle nose thats *dead nuts...000000+/-
and you put in a gauge pin..and the runout is .004....that means
something is not right. *If it were .0001..its still not right.

Some of the imports are pretty good. Some are pretty bad. The biggest
problem with a lot of the collet sets..is that you have a mix of good
and bad *ones. *And if you dont select the good one..when you turn
it..things dont come out the right size.

Ive got a decent assortment of used collets, mostly Hardinge, some
Southbends (decent), some Lyndex, some Royals..some much older brands
like Rivette. *But I dont have any chicom collets. Nor am I likely to.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Gunner Asch

Ok. So I should concentrate on getting common sizes from Hardinge,
Lyndex, and Royal. Do these manufacturers make collets for MT2, MT3,
and R8?

Also, I'm thinking that I probably should get new collect blocks also,
since the ones I have were picked up from the same seller I got the
import collets from.

BTW. How accurate can one expect to make collet blocks for other sizes
where they are not available?

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On 2010-06-10, Searcher7 wrote:
On Jun 9, 4:24*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7



wrote:
I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

For those who have experience with the import(regular) collets can you
give me an idea of the kind of problems you've run into, if any, due
to collet inaccuracy? (Before I get the other 32 to complete my round
set).

And am I correct in assuming that even import(regular) collets
wouldn't be anywhere near 1/64th of an inch off of perfect?

Can I also assume that as long as the correct collet is used there
really shouldn't be any real wear?

[ ... ]

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. *Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

[ ... ]

Ok. So I should concentrate on getting common sizes from Hardinge,
Lyndex, and Royal. Do these manufacturers make collets for MT2, MT3,
and R8?

R8 -- yes. MT2 and MT3 are less common these days. Hardinge
*might* still make them, but probably not the others. And be sitting
down before you ask for the price of *any* Hardinge collet. :-)

And R8 is not a work-holding collet -- it is a *tool-holding*
collet -- specifically end-mills.

As for the MT-2 and MT-3 -- the most likely place to find them
is from the same people who sell the import machine tools which
currently use them.

The discussion was about 5C collets, which are the ones which
come from many makers in many degrees of quality.

Also, I'm thinking that I probably should get new collect blocks also,
since the ones I have were picked up from the same seller I got the
import collets from.

Don't worry about it. The typical use of a collet block is not
going to require the accuracy that you want from a lathe spindle. The
most common use of the hex collet blocks is milling a hex head on a bolt
which you have made in an uncommon size. The same thing with a square
collet block -- making the screw heads found on older lathes for common
locking screws. The precision is not really that important. The block
and the collet is simply a convenient way of holding the workpiece,
especially if you don't have a dividing head with a 3-jaw chuck on it.

BTW. How accurate can one expect to make collet blocks for other sizes
where they are not available?

You can *expect* any degree of accuracy you can imagine.
Whether you will *get* it depends on your skill and the accuracy of the
machines you are using to make them.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 17:23:30 -0400, Wes
wrote the following:

"Joe AutoDrill" wrote:

The Google Books Project has been pushing antedates back for terms like
this with great regularity. Still takes some follow up though, their
OCR process also introduces quite a few errors...


Leon,

What you provided was enough to get us to the point of satisfaction for this
week. Thank you.

Might follow up on those other leads in the futuer though. Curiosity...


Just remember, the symbol for dead nuts on a drawing is a Double U with an arrow though
both U's.

Sounds more like the symbol for 'pierced nuts' to me, Wes.

--
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what
to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
-- George S. Patton

Don (always the voice of reason) Nichols sez:

"The discussion was about 5C collets, which are the ones which
come from many makers in many degrees of quality.
Don't worry about it. The typical use of a collet block is not
going to require the accuracy that you want from a lathe spindle. The
most common use of the hex collet blocks is milling a hex head on a bolt
which you have made in an uncommon size. The same thing with a square
collet block -- making the screw heads found on older lathes for common
locking screws. The precision is not really that important. The block
and the collet is simply a convenient way of holding the workpiece,
especially if you don't have a dividing head with a 3-jaw chuck on it."


Many years ago I bought an expensive "complete" set of W. Germany 5-C collets, graduated by 32 nds.
Soon, I was overtaken by the consuming desire to fluff out the set to 64ths. I agonized over the
decision to spend big money on the make-up collets for maybe 5 minutes and then ordered "made in
Taiwan" types from Enco. With the type of work I do, the difference in accuracy is indiscernible.
I suspect I get more taper from twist in the lathe's bed caused by foundation shifts than from
collets. In other words, "I don't worry about it".

Bob Swinney

On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:17:05 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote:

On Jun 9, 9:16*am, Randy wrote:
...
...The problem I've found with the cheap
ones is they are all undersize, you have to force a 1/2" rod into a
1/2" collet. *With the Lyndex brand it will just slip in *and hold
nicely.
.....
Randy

It may not actually be undersized. See if the slits warped shut in
hardening. You can jam screwdrivers in to open them when you load or
remove the stock.

jsw

Been there, was doing that, it's a PITA.

Thank You,
Randy

Remove 333 from email address to reply.

On Jun 10, 9:00*am, Randy wrote:
On Wed, 9 Jun 2010 09:17:05 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
...
It may not actually be undersized. See if the slits warped shut in
hardening. You can jam screwdrivers in to open them when you load or
remove the stock.
jsw

Been there, *was doing that, it's a PITA.
Randy

It is, but more acceptable on the rarely used collets than the common
sizes. I'd buy good ones for 1/2" and 1" at least, probably also for
1/4", 5/16", 3/8", 5/8" and 3/4", and cheaper or used ones for the
other sizes. Those are the sizes of drill rod I keep on hand. A screw
thread held by a collet isn't going to run perfectly true anyway,
though that's a good way to clamp them without damage.

jsw

Larry Jaques wrote:

Just remember, the symbol for dead nuts on a drawing is a Double U with an arrow though
both U's.

Sounds more like the symbol for 'pierced nuts' to me, Wes.

They would be dead nuts.

"Robert Swinney" wrote:

Many years ago I bought an expensive "complete" set of W. Germany 5-C collets, graduated by 32 nds.
Soon, I was overtaken by the consuming desire to fluff out the set to 64ths. I agonized over the
decision to spend big money on the make-up collets for maybe 5 minutes and then ordered "made in
Taiwan" types from Enco. With the type of work I do, the difference in accuracy is indiscernible.
I suspect I get more taper from twist in the lathe's bed caused by foundation shifts than from
collets. In other words, "I don't worry about it".

I've taken a different tact. I bought a 1/8 - 1 set along with a 5/16" in lyndex since
they are good enough that I don't have to worry if they will be good enough. When I'm
making something that lends itself to a collet I do not have, I just order the one I need.
The collection is slowly growing with sizes I've actually used.

Btw, I'm now getting one day shipping from McMaster.


Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

On Jun 10, 1:26*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-10, Searcher7 wrote:



On Jun 9, 4:24 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7

wrote:
I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

For those who have experience with the import(regular) collets can you
give me an idea of the kind of problems you've run into, if any, due
to collet inaccuracy? (Before I get the other 32 to complete my round
set).

And am I correct in assuming that even import(regular) collets
wouldn't be anywhere near 1/64th of an inch off of perfect?

Can I also assume that as long as the correct collet is used there
really shouldn't be any real wear?

* * * * [ ... ]

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

* * * * [ ... ]

Ok. So I should concentrate on getting common sizes from Hardinge,
Lyndex, and Royal. Do these manufacturers make collets for MT2, MT3,
and R8?

* * * * R8 -- yes. *MT2 and MT3 are less common these days. *Hardinge
*might* still make them, but probably not the others. *And be sitting
down before you ask for the price of *any* Hardinge collet. :-)

That's the reason I got the imported collets to begin with. :-)

* * * * And R8 is not a work-holding collet -- it is a *tool-holding*
collet -- specifically end-mills.

Yes. I had decided to not get the R8 end mill holders and get the R8
collets instead.

* * * * As for the MT-2 and MT-3 -- the most likely place to find them
is from the same people who sell the import machine tools which
currently use them.

My mini lathe has a .787 spindle bore, so I figured I would get an
MT-3(3MT) set so I wouldn't need a collet chuck for that range up to
3/4".: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1948

And a set of R8 collets to cover the endmills for my mill/drill.:
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2872
I just have to determine what sizes are best to get that give me a
good range of options for end mills.

(But not necessarily the collets in these links, since they are also
imports).

I would have considered these if I had gotten that Vertex dividing
head: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2999
But that particular set only goes up to 1/2" anyway.

I'm not sure of what, if any MT2 collets I should get. (My lathe
tailstock and rotary table center bore are MT2).
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1752

As for 5C. I still have that "poor man's" 5C collet chuck, spin
indexer, hor/vert. collet fixture, and collet blocks.
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=3842
I'm thinking 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 7/8", 1" "precision"
collets.(In round, square and hex).

Getting all these collets from a quality manufacturer will be tough.
(The various spindle and bore standards are killing me).

* * * * The discussion was about 5C collets, which are the ones which
come from many makers in many degrees of quality.

Also, I'm thinking that I probably should get new collect blocks also,
since the ones I have were picked up from the same seller I got the
import collets from.

* * * * Don't worry about it. *The typical use of a collet block is not
going to require the accuracy that you want from a lathe spindle. *The
most common use of the hex collet blocks is milling a hex head on a bolt
which you have made in an uncommon size. *The same thing with a square
collet block -- making the screw heads found on older lathes for common
locking screws. *The precision is not really that important. *The block
and the collet is simply a convenient way of holding the workpiece,
especially if you don't have a dividing head with a 3-jaw chuck on it.

BTW. How accurate can one expect to make collet blocks for other sizes
where they are not available?

* * * * You can *expect* any degree of accuracy you can imagine.
Whether you will *get* it depends on your skill and the accuracy of the
machines you are using to make them.

Randy said that the problem he's found with the cheap collets is that
they are all undersized. If this is generally true I wonder if it
would be a plausible project correct the inaccuracies of at least some
of the imports. Of course, there will be concentricity as well as bore
size issues. (Which reminds me, I have to get a taper attachment).
Another issue is that my set of 5C collets were packed in four
different kinds of packages, which would probably mean they are even
more inconsistent.

http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/l...t=IMG_0165.jpg

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Jun 10, 1:26 am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-10, Searcher7 wrote:



On Jun 9, 4:24 am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7

wrote:
I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

For those who have experience with the import(regular) collets can you
give me an idea of the kind of problems you've run into, if any, due
to collet inaccuracy? (Before I get the other 32 to complete my round
set).

And am I correct in assuming that even import(regular) collets
wouldn't be anywhere near 1/64th of an inch off of perfect?

Can I also assume that as long as the correct collet is used there
really shouldn't be any real wear?

[ ... ]

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

[ ... ]

Ok. So I should concentrate on getting common sizes from Hardinge,
Lyndex, and Royal. Do these manufacturers make collets for MT2, MT3,
and R8?

R8 -- yes. MT2 and MT3 are less common these days. Hardinge
*might* still make them, but probably not the others. And be sitting
down before you ask for the price of *any* Hardinge collet. :-)

That's the reason I got the imported collets to begin with. :-)

And R8 is not a work-holding collet -- it is a *tool-holding*
collet -- specifically end-mills.

Yes. I had decided to not get the R8 end mill holders and get the R8
collets instead.

As for the MT-2 and MT-3 -- the most likely place to find them
is from the same people who sell the import machine tools which
currently use them.

My mini lathe has a .787 spindle bore, so I figured I would get an
MT-3(3MT) set so I wouldn't need a collet chuck for that range up to
3/4".: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1948

And a set of R8 collets to cover the endmills for my mill/drill.:
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2872
I just have to determine what sizes are best to get that give me a
good range of options for end mills.

(But not necessarily the collets in these links, since they are also
imports).

I would have considered these if I had gotten that Vertex dividing
head: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2999
But that particular set only goes up to 1/2" anyway.

I'm not sure of what, if any MT2 collets I should get. (My lathe
tailstock and rotary table center bore are MT2).
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1752

As for 5C. I still have that "poor man's" 5C collet chuck, spin
indexer, hor/vert. collet fixture, and collet blocks.
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=3842
I'm thinking 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 7/8", 1" "precision"
collets.(In round, square and hex).

Getting all these collets from a quality manufacturer will be tough.
(The various spindle and bore standards are killing me).

The discussion was about 5C collets, which are the ones which
come from many makers in many degrees of quality.

Also, I'm thinking that I probably should get new collect blocks also,
since the ones I have were picked up from the same seller I got the
import collets from.

Don't worry about it. The typical use of a collet block is not
going to require the accuracy that you want from a lathe spindle. The
most common use of the hex collet blocks is milling a hex head on a bolt
which you have made in an uncommon size. The same thing with a square
collet block -- making the screw heads found on older lathes for common
locking screws. The precision is not really that important. The block
and the collet is simply a convenient way of holding the workpiece,
especially if you don't have a dividing head with a 3-jaw chuck on it.

BTW. How accurate can one expect to make collet blocks for other sizes
where they are not available?

You can *expect* any degree of accuracy you can imagine.
Whether you will *get* it depends on your skill and the accuracy of the
machines you are using to make them.

Randy said that the problem he's found with the cheap collets is that
they are all undersized. If this is generally true I wonder if it
would be a plausible project correct the inaccuracies of at least some
of the imports. Of course, there will be concentricity as well as bore
size issues. (Which reminds me, I have to get a taper attachment).
Another issue is that my set of 5C collets were packed in four
different kinds of packages, which would probably mean they are even
more inconsistent.

http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/l...t=IMG_0165.jpg

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Jun 11, 12:31*am, Searcher7 wrote:
...
I'm not sure of what, if any MT2 collets I should get. (My lathe
tailstock *and rotary table center bore are MT2).http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1752

I'm thinking 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 7/8", 1" "precision"
collets.(In round, square and hex).

Getting all these collets from a quality manufacturer will be tough.
(The various spindle and bore standards are killing me).
Darren Harris

A collet isn't much use in the lathe tailstock, except for this type:
http://www.jtsmach.com/jtswebshop/Pr...Tools/D179.asp

I've used only 1/2" MT2 in my rotary table, to hold centering plugs
that were turned to size as necessary on the other end. The sector
gear job in my photo used such a plug that's 0.500" on one end and
0.508" on the other to fit the original gear. I make repair parts as I
think you do, and nothing is ever accurately to size.

Rather than all those square and hex collets you might consider small
3 and 4 jaw chucks with 5C backs. They have the same advantage that
you can remove the work to test the fit without losing centering, and
are better when you need to alternately turn and mill the part, like
my John Deere choke shaft with the squared end.

I bought the bar stock I needed first and then the collets to fit. As
for hex, electronics standoffs are usually 1/4" so I got that collet,
and I found a scrap lot of 7/8 hex stainless and bought a collet to
fit it. Otherwise I haven't needed them, bolt heads are undersized and
not concentric enough with the shank so instead of a hex collet or
even a 3-jaw I chuck them by the shank and drill the head to run
between centers.

I've never needed a square collet. Square stock can be centered
accurately by measuring with the cross feed dial.

jsw

Larry Jaques wrote:

They would be dead nuts.

Quite true, but not at the exact time of symbol creation.

I think pierce-fanatics should try it more often. And
the term "Pierced Nuts" would get better advertising results than
"Dead Nuts", oui?

I kinda wish some of these piercing freaks would do the nuts also. It might allow
Darwinism to operate on a generation avoided basis.

Wes
--
"Additionally as a security officer, I carry a gun to protect
government officials but my life isn't worth protecting at home
in their eyes." Dick Anthony Heller

Wes wrote:

Larry Jaques wrote:

They would be dead nuts.

Quite true, but not at the exact time of symbol creation.

I think pierce-fanatics should try it more often. And
the term "Pierced Nuts" would get better advertising results than
"Dead Nuts", oui?

I kinda wish some of these piercing freaks would do the nuts also. It might allow
Darwinism to operate on a generation avoided basis.


You could offer to do it for them with a red hot welding rod. They
would hit notes even little dogs couldn't hear. ;-)

--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 11:45:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 09 Jun 2010 01:24:41 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote:

I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

[snip]

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

Another issue..is that not all collets have the holes drilled in the
middle G

When you have a spindle nose thats dead nuts...000000+/-
and you put in a gauge pin..and the runout is .004....that means
something is not right. If it were .0001..its still not right.

Some of the imports are pretty good. Some are pretty bad. The biggest
problem with a lot of the collet sets..is that you have a mix of good
and bad ones. And if you dont select the good one..when you turn
it..things dont come out the right size.

So, best bet is in your copious spare time, go through all the
collets, and find out what size they "really" are, as well as how true
they might be?
I wonder how one might "true up" a collet. It would also depend
on whether the bore is undersized _and_ off center. Boring an
undersized one might be a challenge - I keep thinking of honing one
"out" to proper size, and possibly even to dead nuts centered, But
that would take some know how as well as time and equipment.

My opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it..is to buy known
brands of Good collets and not bother with Chicom imports. Even used
collets will likely still be on the money. In fact..Ive only bought (1)
new collet, because I couldnt find a hex collet in 7/8s, used, anywhere.

And it was a Hardinge.

Collets( good ones) are hard as a whores heart. The only way you are
going to get an undersized one cleaned up to the proper size..is to
grind it to size. It can be done..but shrug...it depends on what you
are actually needing it for.

Gunner

One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:23:26 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote:


R8 -- yes. MT2 and MT3 are less common these days. Hardinge
*might* still make them, but probably not the others. And be sitting
down before you ask for the price of *any* Hardinge collet. :-)

That's the reason I got the imported collets to begin with. :-)


Thats also the reason one can get GOOD pricing at times on Ebay, on
Hardinge (and the other good ones) collets.

And its a good time to start stocking up. So many factories have gone
tits up..there are a ****load of collets out there.

While Ive seen some worn collets, they have been worn still within the
holding range. And Ive picked em up for less than $5 each, in most
cases...$10 for 5-10 of them.

Just a heads up.

Gunner, cheap...errrr ......Frugal *******


One could not be a successful Leftwinger without realizing that,
in contrast to the popular conception supported by newspapers
and mothers of Leftwingers, a goodly number of Leftwingers are
not only narrow-minded and dull, but also just stupid.
Gunner Asch

On Jun 12, 3:44*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:23:26 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7

wrote:

...And be sitting
down before you ask for the price of *any* Hardinge collet. :-)
...
While Ive seen some worn collets, they have been worn still within the
holding range. And Ive picked em up for less than $5 each, in most
cases...$10 for 5-10 of them.

Gunner, cheap...errrr *......Frugal ********

The only second-hand collet I bought that was significantly worn is a
1/2" Hardinge. I use it for hardware-store aluminum rod that's
oversized and heavily anodized, and to regrind end mills. Anodizing is
abrasive aluminum oxide.

The second-hand x/32 and x/64 collets were apparently never used.

jsw

Gunner Asch on Sat, 12 Jun 2010 00:38:39 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Wed, 09 Jun 2010 11:45:27 -0700, pyotr filipivich
wrote:

Gunner Asch on Wed, 09 Jun 2010 01:24:41 -0700
typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
On Tue, 8 Jun 2010 18:13:30 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
wrote:

I entertained the idea of filling out the rest of my set of 5C collets
several years ago. Now I'm thinking about it again, but there is a
possible issue which I didn't really consider originally.

[snip]

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

Another issue..is that not all collets have the holes drilled in the
middle G

When you have a spindle nose thats dead nuts...000000+/-
and you put in a gauge pin..and the runout is .004....that means
something is not right. If it were .0001..its still not right.

Some of the imports are pretty good. Some are pretty bad. The biggest
problem with a lot of the collet sets..is that you have a mix of good
and bad ones. And if you dont select the good one..when you turn
it..things dont come out the right size.

So, best bet is in your copious spare time, go through all the
collets, and find out what size they "really" are, as well as how true
they might be?
I wonder how one might "true up" a collet. It would also depend
on whether the bore is undersized _and_ off center. Boring an
undersized one might be a challenge - I keep thinking of honing one
"out" to proper size, and possibly even to dead nuts centered, But
that would take some know how as well as time and equipment.

My opinion, and worth exactly what you paid for it..is to buy known
brands of Good collets and not bother with Chicom imports. Even used
collets will likely still be on the money. In fact..Ive only bought (1)
new collet, because I couldnt find a hex collet in 7/8s, used, anywhere.

And it was a Hardinge.

Collets( good ones) are hard as a whores heart. The only way you are
going to get an undersized one cleaned up to the proper size..is to
grind it to size. It can be done..but shrug...it depends on what you
are actually needing it for.

The consensus seems to be, out of round collets get dumped,
undersized get remarked. Unless one wants to spend the time and
effort to hone one out to size ... it isn't worth it.

Sort of like making your own mill from scratch - starting from the
casting of the big iron bits. Yes, it can be done, but why???
--
pyotr filipivich
We will drink no whiskey before its nine.
It's eight fifty eight. Close enough!

On 2010-06-11, Searcher7 wrote:
On Jun 10, 1:26*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-10, Searcher7 wrote:

[ ... ]

Unfortunately...far far too many importe (Asian) collets are under or
over sized. A 5C collet has at most..a .015 grip range..and most of them
are .006. Ive seen far too many of them that were in that 15 thou
range..but a .500 collet may open to .485, and close to .497....which
really doesnt help much when your stock is .502 +/- .004

Hardinge, Lyndex, Royal, etc etc and several other german or polish made
brands are Good stuff.

* * * * [ ... ]

Ok. So I should concentrate on getting common sizes from Hardinge,
Lyndex, and Royal. Do these manufacturers make collets for MT2, MT3,
and R8?

* * * * R8 -- yes. *MT2 and MT3 are less common these days. *Hardinge
*might* still make them, but probably not the others. *And be sitting
down before you ask for the price of *any* Hardinge collet. :-)

That's the reason I got the imported collets to begin with. :-)

Understood. They may be all that is available these days.

* * * * And R8 is not a work-holding collet -- it is a *tool-holding*
collet -- specifically end-mills.

Yes. I had decided to not get the R8 end mill holders and get the R8
collets instead.

The end mill holders are better. R8 collets holding end mills
tend to slip with heavy cuts, causing the end mill to walk deeper and
deeper into the workpiece -- or even *through* it and into the mill table
or the vise.

I don't have an R8 spindle machine, but for end mills I prefer
end mill holders for the NTMB-30 and NTMB-40 tapers for my two machines
(with an adaptor allowing me to use the 30 taper holders in the larger
machine as well.)

* * * * As for the MT-2 and MT-3 -- the most likely place to find them
is from the same people who sell the import machine tools which
currently use them.

My mini lathe has a .787 spindle bore, so I figured I would get an
MT-3(3MT) set so I wouldn't need a collet chuck for that range up to
3/4".: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1948

With the disadvantage that you can't pass long workpieces
through the spindle as you can with 5C (or even 3C) collets. The
drawbar for those is hollow, while the drawbar for what you got is solid
(it uses internal threads in the collet back, while the 3C and 5C use
external threads instead.

And a set of R8 collets to cover the endmills for my mill/drill.:
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2872
I just have to determine what sizes are best to get that give me a
good range of options for end mills.

(But not necessarily the collets in these links, since they are also
imports).

The only disadvantage of the end mill holders is the extra
length. But remember my warning about the R8 collets slipping with
heavy cuts.

I would have considered these if I had gotten that Vertex dividing
head: http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2999
But that particular set only goes up to 1/2" anyway.

Look for a good 3-jaw chuck to fit it instead.

I'm not sure of what, if any MT2 collets I should get. (My lathe
tailstock and rotary table center bore are MT2).
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1752

I would not bother. There are special collets for drill bits
for use in a drill press or tailstock ram -- but they expect a ground
flat on the end of the drill shank to prevent it spinning. And you can
get drill bits with a Morse Taper shank which is better than trying to
use drills in a collet anyway.

And these don't have the tang needed for extracting them from a
tailstock ram in a lathe. I can see you having to remove the ram from
the tailstock, clamp it in the 3-jaw chuck, and reach in through the
leadscrew hole with a rod to knock it out -- *every* time. Those are
not for use in a lathe tailstock.

And I don't see a use for collets in a rotary table bore.

Just because something *has* a Morse (or other) taper does not
mean that it is worth while getting collets to fit it. The tailstock
taper for a lathe is for centers -- or for drill chucks on an arbor, or
drill bits fitted with a Morse Taper shank.

As for 5C. I still have that "poor man's" 5C collet chuck, spin
indexer, hor/vert. collet fixture, and collet blocks.
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=3842
I'm thinking 1/8", 1/4", 3/8", 1/2", 5/8", 3/4", 7/8", 1" "precision"
collets.(In round, square and hex).

Getting all these collets from a quality manufacturer will be tough.

It will also be *expensive* -- especially from Hardinge. :-)

(The various spindle and bore standards are killing me).

One reason to avoid getting collets for things which don't need
them.

[ ... ]

BTW. How accurate can one expect to make collet blocks for other sizes
where they are not available?

* * * * You can *expect* any degree of accuracy you can imagine.
Whether you will *get* it depends on your skill and the accuracy of the
machines you are using to make them.

Randy said that the problem he's found with the cheap collets is that
they are all undersized.

And someone else (quoted above) said that in *his* experience,
some are undersized and others oversized.

If this is generally true I wonder if it
would be a plausible project correct the inaccuracies of at least some
of the imports. Of course, there will be concentricity as well as bore
size issues.

And if they are *sufficiently* undersized, you can fix both the
size and concentricity problems in one operation. Note that the collets
are hardened, so don't expect to turn them right -- you will have to
grind them to the right size, using a toolpost grinder on the lathe.

You will have to spend quite a bit of time protecting the bed
and other precision surfaces from the abrasives from the grinding
operations.

And every time you change out one collet for another, you will
need to clean the taper and bore of the collet adaptor or some grit will
hold the next collet off-center so it will wind up no better, and
perhaps worse than before.

I would suggest that you not worry about the accuracy of the
collets until you *need* it. Normally, even the inexpensive collets are
significantly better that a 3-jaw chuck.

(Which reminds me, I have to get a taper attachment).

For what projects? And is one available for your lathe? You
may have to make one from scratch.

Another issue is that my set of 5C collets were packed in four
different kinds of packages, which would probably mean they are even
more inconsistent.

http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/l...t=IMG_0165.jpg

Or perhaps they were selected as the best (or the worst) of what
came in. If the different packaging means different makers, it may
still not make much difference -- they may still all be pretty good.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On 2010-06-12, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jun 12, 3:44*am, Gunner Asch wrote:
On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 21:23:26 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7

wrote:

...And be sitting
down before you ask for the price of *any* Hardinge collet. :-)
...
While Ive seen some worn collets, they have been worn still within the
holding range. And Ive picked em up for less than $5 each, in most
cases...$10 for 5-10 of them.

Gunner, cheap...errrr *......Frugal ********

The only second-hand collet I bought that was significantly worn is a
1/2" Hardinge. I use it for hardware-store aluminum rod that's
oversized and heavily anodized, and to regrind end mills. Anodizing is
abrasive aluminum oxide.

The second-hand x/32 and x/64 collets were apparently never used.

Which may cause you to stop and think "Do I really *need* those
sizes?" :-)

I have mostly the 1/16" sizes, plus a few of the smaller step
ones, and (so far) *one* metric size -- 5.00 mm. Get the special sizes
as you need them. My smaller step sizes were part of one or more lot
purchases from eBay. The 5.00 mm one is new. (Maybe if I had a full
set of 64ths sizes I would have something close enough to 5mm to use.
:-)

Oh yes -- also the 1/16" steps all fit in the collet rack which
clamps to the lathe bed. The other sizes (along with a couple of 5C
mount chucks) live in two other racks, fastened to the door of a tool
chest/drawer assembly which also stores the chucks when not on the
lathe.

Enjoy,
DoN.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Jun 12, 9:02*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-12, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
The second-hand x/32 and x/64 collets were apparently never used.

* * * * Which may cause you to stop and think "Do I really *need* those
sizes?" :-)

* * * * I have mostly the 1/16" sizes, plus a few of the smaller step
ones, and (so far) *one* metric size -- 5.00 mm. *Get the special sizes
as you need them. *...
* * * * * * * * DoN.

Good advice, in fact the shorter list I posted earlier is all I really
need. I couldn't pass up the deal on the others, though.

It's so tempting to treat the Heavy 10 lathe as a museum piece and
collect every possible accessory. And a 1965 lathe gives more use and
takes less space than a 1965 car.

jsw

On 2010-06-14, Searcher7 wrote:
On Jun 12, 8:52*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-11, Searcher7 wrote:

On Jun 10, 1:26*am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

[ ... ]

* * * * And R8 is not a work-holding collet -- it is a *tool-holding*
collet -- specifically end-mills.

Yes. I had decided to not get the R8 end mill holders and get the R8
collets instead.

* * * * The end mill holders are better. *R8 collets holding end mills
tend to slip with heavy cuts, causing the end mill to walk deeper and
deeper into the workpiece -- or even *through* it and into the mill table
or the vise.

It appears that you are conveying that the spline on an R8 end mill
holder

What spline?

more than makes up for the larger surface area contact of an R8
collet.(Or am I missing something?).

Quite a bit, if you are expecting a spline somewhere in the R8
end mill holder. And actually, there is a greater surface contact area
on the end mill holder than on the R8 collet.

Let's describe the end mill holder to perhaps make it clear.

Start with a shank which has the exterior dimensions of the R8
collet (or whatever holder is needed if not an R8 spindle).

Then bore and ream to size the precise diameter of the end mill
shank so it just barely slips into it.

Then there is a special setscrew with a flat point and a
45-degree bevel which precisely matches the "Weldon flat" (also with the
45-degree bevel) in the side of the end mill's shank.

The 45-degree bevel plus the flat prevent the end mill from
being pulled down out of the end mill holder.

There is another style -- common in the UK and almost unknown
here -- called the Clarkson collet. It includes a threaded part which
grips a threaded end on the end mill shank (as hard to find here as the
Clarkson holders) and a hardened center in the holder presses on the
machined center in the end mill. These *do* have a collet to hold the
end mill where it exits the holder, but are proof against the end mills
pulling out -- as long as you can find those end mills. :-)

* * * * I don't have an R8 spindle machine, but for end mills I prefer
end mill holders for the NTMB-30 and NTMB-40 tapers for my two machines
(with an adaptor allowing me to use the 30 taper holders in the larger
machine as well.)

* * * * As for the MT-2 and MT-3 -- the most likely place to find them
is from the same people who sell the import machine tools which
currently use them.

My mini lathe has a .787 spindle bore, so I figured I would get an
MT-3(3MT) set so I wouldn't need a collet chuck for that range up to
3/4".:http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1948

* * * * With the disadvantage that you can't pass long workpieces
through the spindle as you can with 5C (or even 3C) collets.

It would of course have to be 3C for my lathe. since I see no
advantage to getting 5C for the spindle.

Certainly.

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1991
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2240

O.K. The first is the collets -- the second is the adaptor to
allow you to use the 3C collets in your Morse taper 3 spindle -- but
without the drawtube assembly, which is covered by your following two
links.

The drawbar for those is hollow, while the drawbar for what you got is solid
(it uses internal threads in the collet back, while the 3C and 5C use
external threads instead.

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...2374&category=
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...2728&category=

Why post both? One is pre-cut to fit a specific machine
(yours?), while the other is the same thing with a longer drawtube which
can be cut to fit whatever machine you have.

The uncut one could probably be easily adapted to my old
Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe -- but I don't use it any more, so there is
little point in doing that. :-)

Note that these are all handwheel type. What I am using is a
lever locking style -- you adjust and lock a setting once for a collet
after installing it, and you can release and lock the collet with a
lever at the other end of the headstock -- even while the spindle is
still turning. This is used with a turret in the lathe, and often with
a pneumatic pusher to feed stock to a stop on the turret without
stopping the spindle to move to the next part.

BTW. I notice that some 5C collets have either or inside/outside
threads. Would it be more desirable to concentrate on getting just
those that have both?

The outside threads are all that is used by the drawtube. The
inside threads are for a work stop. It screws into the internal threads
on the collet, and has a threaded rod which can be adjusted to control
the depth a workpiece can be pushed into the collet, and a nut to lock
the threaded rod so you can change many parts through the setup while
the depth stop remains properly adjusted.

This can be used in a lathe spindle, or in the collet spin
holder, but would probably be quite awkward with the square or hex
collet blocks.

And a set of R8 collets to cover the endmills for my mill/drill.:
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2872
I just have to determine what sizes are best to get that give me a
good range of options for end mills.

(But not necessarily the collets in these links, since they are also
imports).

* * * * The only disadvantage of the end mill holders is the extra
length. *But remember my warning about the R8 collets slipping with
heavy cuts.

But since this is a mini-dill/drill would I even have the power to
have work holding be an issue with the R8 collets

The R8 collets are *not* work holding collets. They are tool
holding collets -- typically end mills. This is why they have internal
threads for a drawbar, not external threads for a drawtube. You don't
have shanks long enough on the end mills to need to pass them through
the spindle. :-)

And you might indeed have problems -- depending on the size of
collet which you are using and how aggressively you are feeding the
workpiece into the end mill.

as opposed to the
end mill holders? (And there is the limited travel distance that is at
a premium on one of these machines).

*That* could be the major reason for using collets instead of
end mill holders -- especially in the larger sizes. The end mill
holder has to project at least far enough to bring the setscrew out of
the spindle where you can tighten it -- and the larger the end mill, the
more likely that you won't have *any* room for the end mill shank to
project into the spindle -- which means that you could not hold (for
example) a 1" shank end mill in your R8 collets -- but you *could* hold
one in an end mill holder -- if you have enough room between the table
and the spindle. The larger the vise, and the larger the end mill
holder, the less space for the workpiece itself. :-)

I would have considered these if I had gotten that Vertex dividing
head:http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2999
But that particular set only goes up to 1/2" anyway.

* * * * Look for a good 3-jaw chuck to fit it instead.

Deciding on a chuck has been my biggest problem. I guess a 6" chuck
would be possible witht he 6" rotary table I have, but a 4" would have
a lower profile. (And I can probably still get one of those used 4"
Buck Adjust-Tru 3-jaw lathe chucks with the removable # 10 Brown &
Sharpe taper back plate).

On your rotary table, you either need some extra diameter for
clamping the backplate to the table, or you need to know where you can
drill holes *through* the chuck for bolts to engage T-nuts. My
preference is the smaller chuck with a backplate made for it which is
as large as the table, so the hold-down bolts can go outside the
diameter of the chuck and you won't need to drill through the body of
the chuck.

The backplate needs a spigot to engage the center hole (Morse
taper in your case) to center the chuck before you tighten the clamp
bolts.

If you are going to drill through the body of the chuck, you
need to know *where*, and you either need a 3-jaw chuck on a 3-slot or
6-slot table, or a 4-jaw chuck on a 4-slot table.

*But* -- what I was talking about above was for a dividing head,
not your rotary table. The dividing head normally has a threaded nose
onto which the 3-jaw chuck threads.

The ideal situation would be to have the option of transferring a
single chuck between the rotary table and the mini lathe. (But the
chuck I get for the lathe should be a 4-jaw).

No -- the chuck you should get for the lathe should be *both*.
The 3-jaw is more convenient and quicker -- and very good for hex
workpieces as well. The 4-jaw independent is better for precise
centering (slower though), and far easier to use with square workpieces
or strange shapes like castings for a part.

[ ... ]

* * * * Just because something *has* a Morse (or other) taper does not
mean that it is worth while getting collets to fit it. *The tailstock
taper for a lathe is for centers -- or for drill chucks on an arbor, or
drill bits fitted with a Morse Taper shank.

Thanks. Having no use for MT2 collets makes my shopping list smaller.

(I have an MT2 live center for the lathe tailstock and just need an
MT2 dead center for the rotary table). :-)

O.K. You also need a MT-3 dead (solid) center for the
headstock, and a dog driver plate to allow turning between centers.

[ ... ]

Getting all these collets from a quality manufacturer will be tough.

* * * * It will also be *expensive* -- especially from Hardinge. :-)

(The various spindle and bore standards are killing me).

* * * * One reason to avoid getting collets for things which don't need
them.

Yes. I see why there are so many of these available on eBay that are
not the *standard* sizes.

They are *somebody's* standard size, and eBay is a way to reach
those somebodys if they don't know how to find the real vendors.

BTW. How accurate can one expect to make collet blocks for other sizes
where they are not available?

* * * * You can *expect* any degree of accuracy you can imagine.
Whether you will *get* it depends on your skill and the accuracy of the
machines you are using to make them.

Randy said that the problem he's found with the cheap collets is that
they are all undersized.

* * * * And someone else (quoted above) said that in *his* experience,
some are undersized and others oversized.

Yes. I was just hoping my lot was undersized. :-)

As long as you are hoping -- hope that they are right on. :-)

Assuming I decided
to get the equipment necessary to correct the problem. (But this
doesn't seem like a newbie project).

No -- but it could be a learning project -- perhaps lose one or
two of the collets as you learn -- then buy replacements. :-)

* * * * * * * * * * * * *If this is generally true I wonder if it
would be a plausible project correct the inaccuracies of at least some
of the imports. Of course, there will be concentricity as well as bore
size issues.

* * * * And if they are *sufficiently* undersized, you can fix both the
size and concentricity problems in one operation. *Note that the collets
are hardened, so don't expect to turn them right -- you will have to
grind them to the right size, using a toolpost grinder on the lathe.

That is a piece of equipment I don't have and don't think is available
for my lathe, so it would probably have to be made.

Or adapted. Makers like DuMore make toolpost grinders for a
wide range of machine sizes.

Or take a block of aluminum, mill dovetails to fit your
quick-change toolpost, bore it to fit a air driven die grinder (some
have cylindrical handles, which are easier to use for this), slit one
side and add clamp bolts to tighten it onto the die grinder, and you
have a quick and dirty toolpost grinder. (And *dirty* applies to *all*
toolpost grinders. :-)

* * * * You will have to spend quite a bit of time protecting the bed
and other precision surfaces from the abrasives from the grinding
operations.

* * * * And every time you change out one collet for another, you will
need to clean the taper and bore of the collet adaptor or some grit will
hold the next collet off-center so it will wind up no better, and
perhaps worse than before.

Yes. you mentioned this to me in the past, which is why I didn't get a
tool post grinder.

Better to avoid using one as long as you can. I have a couple
of them -- one the right size for my lathe for OD grinding and one
smaller one better for ID grinding -- and I have yet to use them. They
are there for when I discover that I really do need them, but in the
meanwhile they are not making me have to clean the lathe more than
normal. :-)

* * * * I would suggest that you not worry about the accuracy of the
collets until you *need* it. *Normally, even the inexpensive collets are
significantly better that a 3-jaw chuck.

* * * * * * *(Which reminds me, I have to get a taper attachment).

* * * * For what projects? *And is one available for your lathe? *You
may have to make one from scratch.

Yup. This is something I'd have to make also. The projects would
involve making morse tapers when I get more into the tool making
aspects of the hobby.

You can buy blank Morse tapers. I've bought several with a MT-2
shank and a rough 1" diameter and 1" length external section which I
have machined two of to make shanks for a couple of TapMatic tapping
heads (two different sizes), and at least one spare for some future
project.

For many things, you can buy Morse taper arbors with the other
end to fit other things -- like Jacobs taper for various drill chucks
and such, threaded or whatever.

As for making female Morse tapers -- you can drill small full
depth, and then drill larger at shallower depths to approximate it, and
then use a Morse Taper reamer to produce the female. You can get both
roughing and finishing reamers.

If you are working on hardened metal, you will need the taper
attachment -- and the toolpost grinder to make the precise surface you
need. And -- it is really tricky setting up a taper attachment to
precisely match a Morse taper. You will also want a set of Morse taper
gauges to check the results if you are forming the taper with a taper
attachment.

Another issue is that my set of 5C collets were packed in four
different kinds of packages, which would probably mean they are even
more inconsistent.

http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Tools/?action...

* * * * Or perhaps they were selected as the best (or the worst) of what
came in. *If the different packaging means different makers, it may
still not make much difference -- they may still all be pretty good.

Going with the odds, that probably wouldn't be the case. But I
seriously doubt the company would bother checking the TIR of all their
collets anyway. :-)

As do I. So it is more likely that they bought as good as they
could afford given the price they planned to sell for, and would
hopefully be good enough for most purposes.

Good Luck,
Don.

--
Email: | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Jun 14, 10:57*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-14, Searcher7 wrote:

On Jun 12, 8:52 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-11, Searcher7 wrote:

On Jun 10, 1:26 am, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:

* * * * [ ... ]

And R8 is not a work-holding collet -- it is a *tool-holding*
collet -- specifically end-mills.

Yes. I had decided to not get the R8 end mill holders and get the R8
collets instead.

The end mill holders are better. R8 collets holding end mills
tend to slip with heavy cuts, causing the end mill to walk deeper and
deeper into the workpiece -- or even *through* it and into the mill table
or the vise.

It appears that you are conveying that the spline on an R8 end mill
holder

* * * * What spline?

* * * *more than makes up for the larger surface area contact of an R8
collet.(Or am I missing something?).

* * * * Quite a bit, if you are expecting a spline somewhere in the R8
end mill holder. *And actually, there is a greater surface contact area
on the end mill holder than on the R8 collet.

* * * * Let's describe the end mill holder to perhaps make it clear.

* * * * Start with a shank which has the exterior dimensions of the R8
collet (or whatever holder is needed if not an R8 spindle).

* * * * Then bore and ream to size the precise diameter of the end mill
shank so it just barely slips into it.

* * * * Then there is a special setscrew with a flat point and a
45-degree bevel which precisely matches the "Weldon flat" (also with the
45-degree bevel) in the side of the end mill's shank.

* * * * The 45-degree bevel plus the flat prevent the end mill from
being pulled down out of the end mill holder.

I erred in using the word spline. I meant slot. There is a groove I've
seen along the length of an R8 shank.

* * * * There is another style -- common in the UK and almost unknown
here -- called the Clarkson collet. *It includes a threaded part which
grips a threaded end on the end mill shank (as hard to find here as the
Clarkson holders) and a hardened center in the holder presses on the
machined center in the end mill. *These *do* have a collet to hold the
end mill where it exits the holder, but are proof against the end mills
pulling out -- as long as you can find those end mills. :-)

I don't have an R8 spindle machine, but for end mills I prefer
end mill holders for the NTMB-30 and NTMB-40 tapers for my two machines
(with an adaptor allowing me to use the 30 taper holders in the larger
machine as well.)

As for the MT-2 and MT-3 -- the most likely place to find them
is from the same people who sell the import machine tools which
currently use them.

My mini lathe has a .787 spindle bore, so I figured I would get an
MT-3(3MT) set so I wouldn't need a collet chuck for that range up to
3/4".:http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1948

With the disadvantage that you can't pass long workpieces
through the spindle as you can with 5C (or even 3C) collets.

It would of course have to be 3C for my lathe. since I see no
advantage to getting 5C for the spindle.

* * * * Certainly.

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=1991
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2240

* * * * O.K. *The first is the collets -- the second is the adaptor to
allow you to use the 3C collets in your Morse taper 3 spindle -- but
without the drawtube assembly, which is covered by your following two
links.

What about using split bushing so as not to marr the work when being
held in the chuck from through the spindle? Wouldn't something like
this make a collet unneeded?

The drawbar for those is hollow, while the drawbar for what you got is solid
(it uses internal threads in the collet back, while the 3C and 5C use
external threads instead.

http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2374....
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2728....

* * * * Why post both? *One is pre-cut to fit a specific machine
(yours?), while the other is the same thing with a longer drawtube which
can be cut to fit whatever machine you have.

Yes the 7" x 14" is mine.

* * * * The uncut one could probably be easily adapted to my old
Atlas/Craftsman 6x18" lathe -- but I don't use it any more, so there is
little point in doing that. :-)

* * * * Note that these are all handwheel type. *What I am using is a
lever locking style -- you adjust and lock a setting once for a collet
after installing it, and you can release and lock the collet with a
lever at the other end of the headstock -- even while the spindle is
still turning. *This is used with a turret in the lathe, and often with
a pneumatic pusher to feed stock to a stop on the turret without
stopping the spindle to move to the next part.

If you were in my position, , with a mini lathe, would you go with the
handwheel type that you can purchase or still make one of the "lever
locking style" type?

BTW. I notice that some 5C collets have either or inside/outside
threads. Would it be more desirable to concentrate on getting just
those that have both?

* * * * The outside threads are all that is used by the drawtube. *The
inside threads are for a work stop. *It screws into the internal threads
on the collet, and has a threaded rod which can be adjusted to control
the depth a workpiece can be pushed into the collet, and a nut to lock
the threaded rod so you can change many parts through the setup while
the depth stop remains properly adjusted.

* * * * This can be used in a lathe spindle, or in the collet spin
holder, but would probably be quite awkward with the square or hex
collet blocks.

Yes, I know the purpose of the inside vs. outside threads, but what
gets my attention is what you said about using a collet stop in a
square or hex collet block. This actually has not even crossed my
mind.

And a set of R8 collets to cover the endmills for my mill/drill.:
http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2872
I just have to determine what sizes are best to get that give me a
good range of options for end mills.

(But not necessarily the collets in these links, since they are also
imports).

The only disadvantage of the end mill holders is the extra
length. But remember my warning about the R8 collets slipping with
heavy cuts.

But since this is a mini-dill/drill would I even have the power to
have work holding be an issue with the R8 collets

* * * * The R8 collets are *not* work holding collets. *They are tool
holding collets -- typically end mills. *This is why they have internal
threads for a drawbar, not external threads for a drawtube. *You don't
have shanks long enough on the end mills to need to pass them through
the spindle. :-)

I shouldn't type when I'm tired. :-) We were discussing tool holding
and I substituted the word "work" for "tool".

* * * * And you might indeed have problems -- depending on the size of
collet which you are using and how aggressively you are feeding the
workpiece into the end mill.

I thought I saw R8 end mills in my collection. Nevertheless, perhaps
it is best to have both end mill and collet options.

*** I just have to determine the popular end mill sizes so I'll have
the collets ready.

(Most of my work will be in Aluminum, Brass and Delrin, with some mild
steel thrown in).

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * as opposed to the
end mill holders? (And there is the limited travel distance that is at
a premium on one of these machines).

* * * * *That* could be the major reason for using collets instead of
end mill holders -- especially in the larger sizes. *The end mill
holder has to project at least far enough to bring the setscrew out of
the spindle where you can tighten it -- and the larger the end mill, the
more likely that you won't have *any* room for the end mill shank to
project into the spindle -- which means that you could not hold (for
example) a 1" shank end mill in your R8 collets -- but you *could* hold
one in an end mill holder -- if you have enough room between the table
and the spindle. *The larger the vise, and the larger the end mill
holder, the less space for the workpiece itself. :-)

Yes. One reason I'm looking into more innovative work holding options.

http://www.actmachines.com/cart/products.php?id=87

(So I can get around using a vise most of the time).

I would have considered these if I had gotten that Vertex dividing
head:http://littlemachineshop.com/product...ProductID=2999
But that particular set only goes up to 1/2" anyway.

Look for a good 3-jaw chuck to fit it instead.

Deciding on a chuck has been my biggest problem. I guess a 6" chuck
would be possible witht he 6" rotary table I have, but a 4" would have
a lower profile. (And I can probably still get one of those used 4"
Buck Adjust-Tru 3-jaw lathe chucks with the removable # 10 Brown &
Sharpe taper back plate).

* * * * On your rotary table, you either need some extra diameter for
clamping the backplate to the table, or you need to know where you can
drill holes *through* the chuck for bolts to engage T-nuts. *My
preference is the smaller chuck with a backplate made for it which is
as large as the table, so the hold-down bolts can go outside the
diameter of the chuck and you won't need to drill through the body of
the chuck.

I assume a 4" chuck might be the best option.(Perhaps 5"?).

(The seller was selling one of those 4" adjust-Tru chucks for $159).

* * * * The backplate needs a spigot to engage the center hole (Morse
taper in your case) to center the chuck before you tighten the clamp
bolts.

Yes. I wonder if a one piece backplate with MT2 taper spigot can be
made. And if it would theoretically be the best option.

* * * * If you are going to drill through the body of the chuck, you
need to know *where*, and you either need a 3-jaw chuck on a 3-slot or
6-slot table, or a 4-jaw chuck on a 4-slot table.

I have a 4 slot table, and don't intend to have to drill through the
back of the chuck.

* * * * *But* -- what I was talking about above was for a dividing head,
not your rotary table. *The dividing head normally has a threaded nose
onto which the 3-jaw chuck threads.

Yes, but the chucks I've seen tend to be small.

Since the dividing heads are too large I won't be getting this:
http://www.shars.com/products/view/9...amp_5C_Adaptor

This would be for a rotary table:
http://www.shars.com/products/view/8...ith_MT_2_Arbor

But 4" or 5" would I guess be desirable.

The ideal situation would be to have the option of transferring a
single chuck between the rotary table and the mini lathe. (But the
chuck I get for the lathe should be a 4-jaw).

* * * * No -- the chuck you should get for the lathe should be *both*.
The 3-jaw is more convenient and quicker -- and very good for hex
workpieces as well. *The 4-jaw independent is better for precise
centering (slower though), and far easier to use with square workpieces
or strange shapes like castings for a part.

Yes, I know. I already have the 3" 3 jaw chuck that came with the
lathe.

So now I need a 4 jaw. One that I can transfer to my rotary table.

Hmmm. Perhaps I can just make an adapter plate for the 3" 3 jaw and
use that on the rotary table instead. (I can't think of why I'd need a
larger chuck for that purpose at the moment).

Just because something *has* a Morse (or other) taper does not
mean that it is worth while getting collets to fit it. The tailstock
taper for a lathe is for centers -- or for drill chucks on an arbor, or
drill bits fitted with a Morse Taper shank.

Thanks. Having no use for MT2 collets makes my shopping list smaller.

(I have an MT2 live center for the lathe tailstock and just need an
MT2 dead center for the rotary table). :-)

* * * * O.K. *You also need a MT-3 dead (solid) center for the
headstock, and a dog driver plate to allow turning between centers.

Yes. It's the face plate I'm debating on whether I should make or buy.

Getting all these collets from a quality manufacturer will be tough.

It will also be *expensive* -- especially from Hardinge. :-)

(The various spindle and bore standards are killing me).

One reason to avoid getting collets for things which don't need
them.

Yes. I see why there are so many of these available on eBay that are
not the *standard* sizes.

* * * * They are *somebody's* standard size, and eBay is a way to reach
those somebodys if they don't know how to find the real vendors.

Agreed. But I think a lot of guys may just be getting rid of the
collets that they don't normally use.

Funny. I just got a message back from an eBay seller who has one
Hardinge collet in a lot of 26,but has the Hardinge name in his title.
150449751040 (The other 25 are unmarked, so obviously they are
imports).

BTW. How accurate can one expect to make collet blocks for other sizes
where they are not available?

You can *expect* any degree of accuracy you can imagine.
Whether you will *get* it depends on your skill and the accuracy of the
machines you are using to make them.

Randy said that the problem he's found with the cheap collets is that
they are all undersized.

And someone else (quoted above) said that in *his* experience,
some are undersized and others oversized.

Yes. I was just hoping my lot was undersized. :-)

* * * * As long as you are hoping -- hope that they are right on. :-)

Good point. :-)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *Assuming I decided
to get the equipment necessary to correct the problem. (But this
doesn't seem like a newbie project).

* * * * No -- but it could be a learning project -- perhaps lose one or
two of the collets as you learn -- then buy replacements. :-)

If this is generally true I wonder if it
would be a plausible project correct the inaccuracies of at least some
of the imports. Of course, there will be concentricity as well as bore
size issues.

I put the batch on eBay to see what happens. 140417041012

(Other sellers can learn from me when it comes to including *all* of
the pertinent details in their auction ads).

And if they are *sufficiently* undersized, you can fix both the
size and concentricity problems in one operation. Note that the collets
are hardened, so don't expect to turn them right -- you will have to
grind them to the right size, using a toolpost grinder on the lathe.

That is a piece of equipment I don't have and don't think is available
for my lathe, so it would probably have to be made.

* * * * Or adapted. *Makers like DuMore make toolpost grinders for a
wide range of machine sizes.

I missed one a few months back that was right here on Staten Island.
DuMores go for a premium.

* * * * Or take a block of aluminum, mill dovetails to fit your
quick-change toolpost, bore it to fit a air driven die grinder (some
have cylindrical handles, which are easier to use for this), slit one
side and add clamp bolts to tighten it onto the die grinder, and you
have a quick and dirty toolpost grinder. *(And *dirty* applies to *all*
toolpost grinders. :-)

Yeah, but can I get TIRs within .0001. :-)

You will have to spend quite a bit of time protecting the bed
and other precision surfaces from the abrasives from the grinding
operations.

And every time you change out one collet for another, you will
need to clean the taper and bore of the collet adaptor or some grit will
hold the next collet off-center so it will wind up no better, and
perhaps worse than before.

Yes. you mentioned this to me in the past, which is why I didn't get a
tool post grinder.

* * * * Better to avoid using one as long as you can. *I have a couple
of them -- one the right size for my lathe for OD grinding and one
smaller one better for ID grinding -- and I have yet to use them. *They
are there for when I discover that I really do need them, but in the
meanwhile they are not making me have to clean the lathe more than
normal. :-)

Perhaps your 6 X 18 could be your specialty lathe for this purpose if
it comes to that. (If they are the correct size).

I would suggest that you not worry about the accuracy of the
collets until you *need* it. Normally, even the inexpensive collets are
significantly better that a 3-jaw chuck.

(Which reminds me, I have to get a taper attachment).

For what projects? And is one available for your lathe? You
may have to make one from scratch.

Yup. This is something I'd have to make also. The projects would
involve making morse tapers when I get more into the tool making
aspects of the hobby.

* * * * You can buy blank Morse tapers. *I've bought several with a MT-2
shank and a rough 1" diameter and 1" length external section which I
have machined two of to make shanks for a couple of TapMatic tapping
heads (two different sizes), and at least one spare for some future
project.

I'd only want to work with tools that are hardened. So tool grinding
is next on my list.

* * * * For many things, you can buy Morse taper arbors with the other
end to fit other things -- like Jacobs taper for various drill chucks
and such, threaded or whatever.

* * * * As for making female Morse tapers -- you can drill small full
depth, and then drill larger at shallower depths to approximate it, and
then use a Morse Taper reamer to produce the female. *You can get both
roughing and finishing reamers.

* * * * If you are working on hardened metal, you will need the taper
attachment -- and the toolpost grinder to make the precise surface you
need. *And -- it is really tricky setting up a taper attachment to
precisely match a Morse taper. *You will also want a set of Morse taper
gauges to check the results if you are forming the taper with a taper
attachment.

If I remember correctly Morse Tapers' deviate .06 inches over 1 foot.

Another issue is that my set of 5C collets were packed in four
different kinds of packages, which would probably mean they are even
more inconsistent.

http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/l.../Tools/?action....

Or perhaps they were selected as the best (or the worst) of what
came in. If the different packaging means different makers, it may
still not make much difference -- they may still all be pretty good.

Going with the odds, that probably wouldn't be the case. But I
seriously doubt the company would bother checking the TIR of all their
collets anyway. :-)

* * * * As do I. *So it is more likely that they bought as good as they
could afford given the price they planned to sell for, and would
hopefully be good enough for most purposes.

Thanks a lot.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.
* * * * * *--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

On Jun 16, 6:53*pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
On 2010-06-16, Searcher7 wrote:
...
Why post both? One is pre-cut to fit a specific machine
(yours?), while the other is the same thing with a longer drawtube which
can be cut to fit whatever machine you have....

* * * * So -- get the one which fits without modification. *The price is
the same, and you don't have to throw away part of the drawtube. *(Or
figure a way to make the remains work with a smaller dividing head. *You
would have to machine the spindle to be a closer for the 3C collets and
make a handwheel closer for it....

The handwheel collet closer on my lathe came off a larger lathe and is
longer than necessary. I made a new roller thrust bearing (it didn't
have one) held on by a shaft collar and left it the full original
length, with the original threads.

.......as opposed to the
end mill holders? (And there is the limited travel distance that is at
a premium on one of these machines).

The end mill holder brings the cutting edge down to about the same
place as a drill bit in a chuck, if you size your drill bit lengths to
the machine. Any difference in their heights eats into your limited
quill travel after you've set the head high enough for both.

Generally stub or screw machine length works for me. S&D bits go in a
collet, considering the warning about slippage since the cutting edges
have a longer torque moment than the gripping surface.

jsw

On Jun 17, 1:46*am, Searcher7 wrote:
On Jun 16, 6:53 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
...

Now this is what's been bugging me. 3C will fit into my MT3 lathe
spindle, and MT3 collets will fit into my MT3 lathe spindle, correct

The 3Cs at LMS go as high as 1/2" and only allow a diameter as high
as .467 through the collet.(The site doesn't mention these specifics
for MT3 collets).

Now since my spindle bore is .787, wouldn't a collet set that fits my
lathe spindle *and* allows diameters up to 3/4" be better?
...

The closer tube eats into that 0.787". For my 5C set the tube OD is
1-3/8" (1.36"), the maximum ID is 1-1/16" (1.08"). The threads and the
wall thickness inside and outside them take up the rest.

You don't have to cover the full range with one type of collet. With
MT3 the only overhead is a threaded-rod drawbar and a nut and washer.
They don't cost you another spindle adapter if they fit already. You
could buy only the sizes above the range of 3C.
Here's a good example of available choices:
http://www.finelinehair.com/home/9x2...m#MT-3_Collets

If you can pass the rod stock through the spindle you can machine a
part on the end with access to its entire length. Otherwise you have
to plan how to machine the area clamped within the collet or chuck
jaws in a second operation with less centering accuracy, or waste some
material, or hold it between centers. The difference is mostly
convenience and forethought.

jsw

On Jun 17, 7:43*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jun 17, 1:46*am, Searcher7 wrote:

On Jun 16, 6:53 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
...

Now this is what's been bugging me. 3C will fit into my MT3 lathe
spindle, and MT3 collets will fit into my MT3 lathe spindle, correct

The 3Cs at LMS go as high as 1/2" and only allow a diameter as high
as .467 through the collet.(The site doesn't mention these specifics
for MT3 collets).

Now since my spindle bore is .787, wouldn't a collet set that fits my
lathe spindle *and* allows diameters up to 3/4" be better?
...

The closer tube eats into that 0.787". For my 5C set the tube OD is
1-3/8" (1.36"), the maximum ID is 1-1/16" (1.08"). The threads and the
wall thickness inside and outside them take up the rest.

You don't have to cover the full range with one type of collet. With
MT3 the only overhead is a threaded-rod drawbar and a nut and washer.
They don't cost you another spindle adapter if they fit already. You
could buy only the sizes above the range of 3C.
Here's a good example of available choices:http://www.finelinehair.com/home/9x2...lets_and_Adapt...

If you can pass the rod stock through the spindle you can machine a
part on the end with access to its entire length. Otherwise you have
to plan how to machine the area clamped within the collet or chuck
jaws in a second operation with less centering accuracy, or waste some
material, or hold it between centers. The difference is mostly
convenience and forethought.

jsw

On Jun 17, 7:43*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jun 17, 1:46*am, Searcher7 wrote:

On Jun 16, 6:53 pm, "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
...

Now this is what's been bugging me. 3C will fit into my MT3 lathe
spindle, and MT3 collets will fit into my MT3 lathe spindle, correct

The 3Cs at LMS go as high as 1/2" and only allow a diameter as high
as .467 through the collet.(The site doesn't mention these specifics
for MT3 collets).

Now since my spindle bore is .787, wouldn't a collet set that fits my
lathe spindle *and* allows diameters up to 3/4" be better?
...

The closer tube eats into that 0.787". For my 5C set the tube OD is
1-3/8" (1.36"), the maximum ID is 1-1/16" (1.08"). The threads and the
wall thickness inside and outside them take up the rest.

You don't have to cover the full range with one type of collet. With
MT3 the only overhead is a threaded-rod drawbar and a nut and washer.
They don't cost you another spindle adapter if they fit already. You
could buy only the sizes above the range of 3C.
Here's a good example of available choices:http://www.finelinehair.com/home/9x2...lets_and_Adapt...

If you can pass the rod stock through the spindle you can machine a
part on the end with access to its entire length. Otherwise you have
to plan how to machine the area clamped within the collet or chuck
jaws in a second operation with less centering accuracy, or waste some
material, or hold it between centers. The difference is mostly
convenience and forethought.

jsw

Yes, I just need to figure out the differences between MT3 and 3C
collets. And determine if it is plausible to expect to be able to pass
3/4" through the spindle under any circumstances.

I may not bother getting collets that have more than a 3/4" capacity
for my lathe.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

On Jun 17, 9:15*am, Searcher7 wrote:
On Jun 17, 7:43*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Yes, I just need to figure out the differences between MT3 and 3C
collets. And determine if it is plausible to expect to be able to pass
3/4" through the spindle under any circumstances.
...
Darren Harris

Sure it is. Use a chuck.

jsw

On Jun 17, 10:17*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Jun 17, 9:15*am, Searcher7 wrote:

On Jun 17, 7:43*am, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
Yes, I just need to figure out the differences between MT3 and 3C
collets. And determine if it is plausible to expect to be able to pass
3/4" through the spindle under any circumstances.
...
Darren Harris

Sure it is. Use a chuck.

jsw

Any circumstances with a collet attached. :-)

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.