On Mar 25, 1:56*am, Ignoramus16885 ignoramus16...@NOSPAM.
16885.invalid wrote:
Like most people, I also believed that Morse tapers cannot hold any
tools with milling cutters.

Until tonight that is.

I was sorting through approx. 400 lbs of tooling when I discovered a
set of MT4 tapered endmill holders, from 3/4 to perhaps 1 3/8"
endmills. Also MT5 tapered shell mill holders.

No drawbar threads.

What gives?

I would think that MT4 and MT5 are serious machines that would not be
built for no good reason.

i

On 2010-03-25, DoN. Nichols wrote:



On 2010-03-24, danmitch wrote:
wrote:

* *[ ... ]

Here's Varmint Al's take:
http://www.varmintal.com/alath.htm#Milling_Attachment
The various bits are so low priced, you could make the attachment AND
get the mill/drill if that's what you wanted. *I'd still make/buy a
drawbar setup for holding the milling cutters in the lathe, though,
mill shanks will walk out of chucks. *Little Machineshop also has both
the drawbar and the "official" mini-lathe milling attachment.

Stan
Agreed that a drill chuks should NOT be used to hold milling cutters.
Most milling cutters have hardened shanks that a chuck will NOT grip
adequately. The cutters will slip and pul out under load. This can make
a real mess of the work, and is potentially quite dangerous to the
operator. It's a BAD idea, even if the chuck is secured with a drawbar..

* *There is an exception to this -- with chucks made by Albrecht
with diamond grit faced jaws which *can* grip a milling cutter shank
without slipping.

* *However -- these particular ones also don't come with Morse
Taper shanks, nor with Jacobs taper sockets. *The come with integral R8
or 30, 40, or perhaps even 50 taper holders. *I think that they are for
gripping solid carbide drill bits -- where even the shank is carbide. *I
don't think that they advise using it for holding end mills anyway.

Collets, in good condition, properly seated, are usually acceptable for
holding milling cutters. This is especially true for small low powered
machines. An "End-Mill Holder" is certainly more secure, but can induce
small (usually not serious) runout problems.

* *Generally -- the runout is minimal with a Weldon shank end mill
in a quality end mill holder. *The fit is so tight that you can create a
"pop" as it is drawn out if there is no through connection to the
drawbar for airflow.

* *And some of them are designed to be heated, and the shank put in
there at which point they shrink fit -- very strong grip, and
essentially no addition of runout.

* *Also -- for those in the UK and Australia -- look into Clarkson
collets. *they are designed so the end mill *can't* be drawn out. *The
end mill has a cylindrical shank with a threaded end and the holder has
a keyed nut which presses the center hole in the back of the end mill
against a center pip in the body of the holder. *There is a collet
which tightens on the shank to maximize concentricity.

* *I've got some Clarkson holders -- but not any reasonable number
of matching end mills.

For light precision work, use collets ... for heavy work use end-mill
holders.

* *Yes -- because R8 collets (at least -- perhaps others) will let
the helical flute mills be drawn down under heavy cuts, resulting in a
cut which gets deeper as you go along -- and sometimes even continues
through the workpiece and into the mill's table. :-)

* *Enjoy,
* * * * * *DoN.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.

R8 collets are lousy at holding end mills. Probably the best are the
TG series. I have TG100 collet chucks for my 40 taper horizontal
mill. Pretty tough to pull an end mill out of those - they weren't
named TG (Tremendous Grip) for nothing. Even safer are the TGNP (No
Pull) collets. These are the same as the regular TG collets, but have
a moveable button in one side. You place an end mill with a Weldon
shank in the collet (already in the collet nut), push the button into
the Weldon flat, and then screw the nut onto the collet holder. The
walls of the collet holder keep the button pushed into the Weldon
flat, and there is no way the end mill can pull out. You can't use
the TGNP collets on anything that doesn't have the flat, though.

Usually, I use the end mill holders. It's interesting to note that
the setscrews in the good ones match the Weldon flats perfectly - they
hit the sides of the flat just as they hit the bottom.

John Martin

On 2010-03-25, John Martin wrote:
The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.

A big reason why I like selling industrial stuff, is that I like going
to factories. In any case, I have never seen a milling machine that
would take those Morse 5 tools. (not at that factory either)

Would anyone know of any such machine, that I can google.

R8 collets are lousy at holding end mills.

not my experience.

Probably the best are the TG series. I have TG100 collet chucks for
my 40 taper horizontal mill. Pretty tough to pull an end mill out
of those - they weren't named TG (Tremendous Grip) for nothing.
Even safer are the TGNP (No Pull) collets. These are the same as
the regular TG collets, but have a moveable button in one side. You
place an end mill with a Weldon shank in the collet (already in the
collet nut), push the button into the Weldon flat, and then screw
the nut onto the collet holder. The walls of the collet holder keep
the button pushed into the Weldon flat, and there is no way the end
mill can pull out. You can't use the TGNP collets on anything that
doesn't have the flat, though.

Usually, I use the end mill holders. It's interesting to note that
the setscrews in the good ones match the Weldon flats perfectly - they
hit the sides of the flat just as they hit the bottom.

That seems like a smart system, yes.

i

On Mar 25, 12:30*pm, John Martin wrote:
...
The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
in the taper. *Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
rather than helical ones. *The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.
...
John Martin

The batch I got from Wholesale Tool almost all have spiral flutes
either like modern end mills or finer ones like very old cutters. Most
have large center holes in both ends which make sharpening the flutes
lengthwise easy, but plunging in for a pocket more difficult. One has
no cutting edges at all on the end.

jsw

Ignoramus30639 wrote:
On 2010-03-25, John wrote:
The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.

A big reason why I like selling industrial stuff, is that I like going
to factories. In any case, I have never seen a milling machine that
would take those Morse 5 tools. (not at that factory either)

Would anyone know of any such machine, that I can google.

R8 collets are lousy at holding end mills.

not my experience.

Probably the best are the TG series. I have TG100 collet chucks for
my 40 taper horizontal mill. Pretty tough to pull an end mill out
of those - they weren't named TG (Tremendous Grip) for nothing.
Even safer are the TGNP (No Pull) collets. These are the same as
the regular TG collets, but have a moveable button in one side. You
place an end mill with a Weldon shank in the collet (already in the
collet nut), push the button into the Weldon flat, and then screw
the nut onto the collet holder. The walls of the collet holder keep
the button pushed into the Weldon flat, and there is no way the end
mill can pull out. You can't use the TGNP collets on anything that
doesn't have the flat, though.

Usually, I use the end mill holders. It's interesting to note that
the setscrews in the good ones match the Weldon flats perfectly - they
hit the sides of the flat just as they hit the bottom.

That seems like a smart system, yes.

i


Almost all the older manual larger equipment was equipped with tapered
spindles. When you put the morse cutter in the spindle you use what we
called a banana pin in the slot that lined up with the slot on the tool
and tapped it in tight. The pin would lock the tool into the spindle.
The pin actually looked like an extractor that you use to remove morse
tapers but it was curved like a banana.


John

Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Mar 25, 12:30 pm, John Martin wrote:

...
The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.
...
John Martin


The batch I got from Wholesale Tool almost all have spiral flutes
either like modern end mills or finer ones like very old cutters. Most
have large center holes in both ends which make sharpening the flutes
lengthwise easy, but plunging in for a pocket more difficult. One has
no cutting edges at all on the end.

jsw
These may well have been used in a horizontal mill with an overarm and
outboard center bearing. This would also help (a bit) to hold the cutter
in the taper.

Dan Mitchell
============

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Ignoramus30639 wrote:
On 2010-03-25, John Martin wrote:
The oldtimers used a ball of lead or a lead hammer to seat the cutters
in the taper. Much of the time, the cutters had straight flutes
rather than helical ones. The straight flutes bang harder in the cut,
but have less tendency to pull out of the taper.

A big reason why I like selling industrial stuff, is that I like going
to factories. In any case, I have never seen a milling machine that
would take those Morse 5 tools. (not at that factory either)

Would anyone know of any such machine, that I can google.

Are you sure it is MT #5? Could it be B&S #9 (or bigger)? Those were
more common on mills. You can probably still see combo mills and
horizontals with B&S #7, #9 and larger on eBay. These would mostly be
machines made before 1950 or so.

I had a Bridgeport M head on my mill with B&S #7, and remember MANY
times having to savagely beat the collet out of the spindle. It did
have a drawbar, however.

Jon